Attempted Assasination of Donald Trump

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Sentimental Bee 07/15/24 (Mon) 08:24:39 No.13858

File: 1721031879362.jpg (44.37 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, Kno Change, no food.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>13856
I should clarify what I think the reductive thinking could be. It is, "The people who have guns like Trump. The people who do not like Trump, don't like guns and probably don't have them so I'll take it a little easier today."

In the context of a dude on the roof, probably not. Based off that twitter video though I can't make out a gun. He might have been laying on it. I don't hear any of the people saying "he's got a gun" or anything either. The most I got was "Officer, he's on the roof."

Should someone be shot just for being on a roof? Probably not. What if Crooks was just some guy trying to get a good camera angle but is trying to be a little sneaky about it? Or to watch Trump through some binoculars? What if the sniper had blasted some guy whose only crime was being an overzealous Trump fan?

Is there a timeline on officer movements and communications released yet? Were those officers Secret Service or were they local security/police? They're outside that chainlink perimeter around the stage zone. Were there points of failure in inter-department communication? Why was the sniper not alerted to Crook's presence on the roof to at least take a look from a higher angle which could have more easily confirmed the presence of the rifle? The sniper clearly had a good angle on Crooks considering Crooks is dead.

What rationale was given for the fence being where it was? Was that fence already there or was that put up for the rally? Is that building on private property? People record so much nowadays, is there any video of Crooks climbing the building? Any video of Crooks with the gun available? Is there a video with someone saying "He's got a gun, he's got a gun!" or some such?

I know I can probably try to google this stuff. If you happen have an answer to any of those questions on hand I'd take a look.

Incompetence reaching the scale of criminal negligence does seem likely. A man was killed in front of his family after all. Two more injured, not including Trump.

Energetic Narwhal 07/15/24 (Mon) 08:49:35 No.13859

>>13858
There's a few different videos as well as a couple interviews now, but at least one individual that I know of did see the gun and point it out, which was the fellow interviewed by the BBC.
Given the movement right before... It's hard to say for sure, but I think they were made aware at some point, to some degree.
https://x.com/LauraLoomer/status/1812659627659542549

>Should someone be shot just for being on a roof?
There are other options. The first and foremost thing I would suggest is getting the target off the stage, even if just for a moment while you check the threat...
Having eyes put on him would've also been wise, as I'm sure you could tell a rifle through a half decent scope which doubtless the secret service have.
You could also have one of those near by officers go to the guy and order him down. Will the guy listen? Maybe not. But it's certainly something that has the potential to, if nothing else, ruin the opportunity for a shot.

>Is there a timeline on officer movements and communications released yet?
Not to my knowledge. I doubt there will be. I don't think there typically is, after all.

>is there any video of Crooks climbing the building? Any video of Crooks with the gun available?
From what I've seen there's a few showing him either on the roof or crawling on the roof. As I'm sure you can understand most focus is liable to be on the president, not the surrounding area. Only ones I'm aware of with a gun are after shots, otherwise the camera is too blurry for me to tell at a glance. These are, after all, people's phones, not professional cameras.

Unfortunately, I think most this, much like JFK, will be hidden from public view.
We will likely never know what truly happened. Not unless Trump releases it himself, anyway.
Though regardless... I think it's well time for Trump to consider keeping his security closer to chest.
I think it safe to say the state doesn't have his best interests at heart, after this, whether through lack of care or ill intent.
Hiring some goons Ala the popes Swiss guard seems wise, to me. Albeit, those in particular are just for the tradition now a days.

Energetic Narwhal 07/15/24 (Mon) 09:33:31 No.13860

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Some good news; looks like we might be getting info after all. I'll be eager to see if this actually goes through, but, at the very least, looks like there's people asking pointed questions.
Of course, republican committees do nothing but wag fingers sternly, so nothing is liable to come of it...
But at least we'll know a bit of what happened.

Proud Narwhal 07/15/24 (Mon) 15:10:02 No.13861

>>13859
>You could also have one of those near by officers go to the guy and order him down.

I've heard some stuff about how the SS can't kill someone until they've already shot, which sounds kinda crazy, but I'll be the first to tell you laws are kinda bullshit, so I believe it.

But given that, surely you can at least go talk to the guy? Ask him why he's on the roof? Investigate in any way? Like I really don't think there's an excuse for letting this happen.

Cuddly Clam 07/15/24 (Mon) 18:34:03 No.13862

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I might point out the irony of the GOP response to this when Trump himself has been encouraging political violence for years. Plus, you've got an entire conservative media ecosystem that revolves around mostly opinion pieces that encourage hating democrats and the 'left' in general.

I don't personally want to engage in political violence but the rhetoric on the right since 2020 has left me feeling like I wouldn't have a choice if I were to survive should trump win. If the shooter was really a 'leftist' (or the Republican definition of one) I wouldn't be surprised if the motivation was fundamentally influenced by reaction against that rhetoric. Especially in light of the release of details of the Heritage Foundations 2025 mandate for leadership, I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter saw himself as trying to protect America from a potential Christian Nationalist take over by killing the guy currently making a deal with them to help him regain now enormously expanded power given the legal implications of the Supreme Court's ruling on July 1st regarding immunity for 'official' acts (which also significantly expands Biden's current power I might point out).

Energetic Narwhal 07/15/24 (Mon) 18:45:25 No.13863

>>13862
>when Trump himself has been encouraging political violence for years
Has he?
Or is that just what the dishonest media is telling you, fielding out of context quotes, outright fabrications, or lies by omission...

>I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter saw himself as trying to protect America from a potential Christian Nationalist take over by killing the guy currently making a deal with them to help him regain now enormously expanded power
Now this I will absolutely agree with. I think this is exactly what led to the event.

The constant lies and dishonest framing from the media and politicians alike about how much of a threat Donald Trump is how he's the next incarnation of Hitler and how he's going to totally turn the country into a fascist state with no democracy ever again absolutely led to this result.

Of course you seem to be taking the stance it's actually true which is so laughably stupid... But I suppose it's an example of how the shooter felt, too, at least.
Unfortunately some individuals like your self are very susceptible to propaganda.

Cuddly Clam 07/15/24 (Mon) 18:49:48 No.13864

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I might also point out that this

>>13833
>Thomas Matthew Crooks' one and only political donation ever was to ActBlue, the left/progressive/Democrat political action committee. It is thus likely that he registered as Republican as a general strategy to meddle in the primaries of a group he didn't actually support.

Is really specious reasoning. And a false dichotomy.

There are still never-trumper Republicans out there, like the Lincoln Project, amongst others. The party is not a monolith afterall.

Colorful Giraffe 07/15/24 (Mon) 19:06:22 No.13865

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Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 19:17:35 No.13866

>>13864
There are. But even "Never Trumpers" don't donate to ActBlue.

Cuddly Clam 07/15/24 (Mon) 19:28:23 No.13867

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>>13863
>Has he?
>Or is that just what the dishonest media is telling you, fielding out of context quotes, outright fabrications, or lies by omission...

Yes, I don't have a goldfish's memory for things he's said on the campaign trail as far back as 2016 when he promised legal protections for anyone who would assault protesters at his rallies.

>Of course you seem to be taking the stance it's actually true which is so laughably stupid...

I'm taking that stance because of what Trump himself has said for years, in campaign speeches, and years before he was even a candidate, alongside a good knowledge of common emotional manipulation tactics that he uses in those speeches, as well as his inconsistencies with facts. And especially his focus on trying riling up crowds to be angry and hateful towards anyone on 'the left'. He's a classic demigogue making appeals to a vague threat of a 'deep state' that's responsible for everything wrong in their lives, even going so far as to take advantage of people ignorant of all the checks and balances on the executive branch built into the constitution to blame 'the deep state' for everything he wasn't allowed to do in his first term. >>13866

>Unfortunately some individuals like your self are very susceptible to propaganda.

The projection here is hilariously ironic, especially given Trump's long history before he was even running for president of being a conman who was so incompetent that he bankrupted a casino, and whose only successful business ventures were one's he either inherited from his dad or someone else came up with, like The Apprentice. But I guess when someone strokes your ego enough you just have to believe him right?

Seriously Trump lovers are the most gullible people in America.

>>13866
>There are. But even "Never Trumpers" don't donate to ActBlue

You don't understand how people work do you? It's not physically impossible for someone doing something that they see as ultimately politically defensive, supporting those who would have the best shot at opposing the threat ... is it? As long as that's a possibility, this reasoning is both a false dichotomy and a 'no true scotsman' fallacy.

There are plenty of never-Trumper moderate Republicans making it pretty public on social media that they are voting for Biden in November, are they not really Republicans?

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 19:33:17 No.13868

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>>13867
It's certainly possible. But I would say it's far more likely he followed the democrat strategy of registering as republican to vote in their primaries.

Like I said, I don't know any republicans who've donated to ActBlue.
If you've got example you'd like to cite, by all means. I'd be very interested to see.

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 19:46:15 No.13869

It will never cease to fascinate me that people think there's any kind of discussion to be had in this environment.

There are clearly folks posting here that have no interest in calling out the violence that the right perpetuates.

Go post somewhere else, isolate yourself from this. Let the trolls have it, it's not worth it.

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:02:50 No.13870

>>13867
>Yes, I don't have a goldfish's memory for things he's said on the campaign trail as far back as 2016 when he promised legal protections for anyone who would assault protesters at his rallies.
>"There may be somebody with tomatoes in the audience. So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. Okay? Just knock the hell— I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise, I promise. It won’t be so much ’cause the courts agree with us too."
I guess it's about typical for narratives, but it's clearly not what you're describing.

Throwing shit at the guy on stage isn't merely "protesting".
And of course, I doubt you're gonna say a word for the covering of Antifa types legal fees, either...
https://antifawatch.net/article/stop-cop-city-atl-solidarity

>I'm taking that stance because of what Trump himself has said for years, in campaign speeches, and years before he was even a candidate,
He's declared himself a christian nationalist?
Somehow I doubt that.
> And especially his focus on trying riling up crowds to be angry and hateful towards anyone on 'the left'
As opposed to the left, who totally have never done that...
No, I must clearly be misremembering the eight years now we've had of constant vitriol, decrying everyone who would dare side with Trump a horrible monster.
Why, I must be crazy, for even thinking that rhetoric shows up here, on this site, and that I've been told directly me and my family are horrible monsters who want to kill everyone different to them.
Clearly the left are totally the party of peace and order and civility, and are totally opposed to such rhetoric...

Cuddly Clam 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:03:56 No.13871

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>>13868
>It's certainly possible.

Yes, this is what makes your reasoning a false dichotomy.

There isn't much of a good reason to assume the shooter was a 'fake republican' beyond the fact some democrats have voted in republican primaries, like I said, it's specious reasoning.

>Like I said, I don't know any republicans who've donated to ActBlue.

A classic argument from ignorance.

>>13869

I've got nothing better to do before going to work and considering how much of a threat the right in my homestate of Texas is to my moderately progressive family there, it frustrates the shit out of me how willfully blind to the hate mongering against anyone outside that political affiliation the right have gotten, buying the bullshit at face value.

And yhis is the most appropriate place in this community to express that frustration and disillusionment with my former political party.

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:06:35 No.13872

>>13871
>There isn't much of a good reason to assume the shooter was a 'fake republican' beyond the fact some democrats have voted in republican primaries, like I said, it's specious reasoning.
By the same token the reverse is true, though.

I am inclined to say there's more to suggest he wasn't, than was, given the only piece of evidence I've seen is that he was registered as a republican, which again, democrats explicitly campaigned on as a tactic people should engage in to disrupt republican primaries...
But, at bear minimum, you'd have to concede there isn't good reason to assume he's a republican.

>A classic argument from ignorance.
I've offered you the opportunity to adress that.
You have chosen not to.

I would posit it is because you can't.
You are merely attempting to deflect, knowing you can't actually do such a thing.

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:10:47 No.13873

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>>13871
>how willfully blind to the hate mongering against anyone outside that political affiliation the right have gotten,
A left winger literally murdered a man in cold blood, in an ambush.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-documents-detail-moments-leading-deadly-protest-shooting/story?id=72837959
But of course it's the right that's the big threat here.

I'm going to be dead blunt; You've had a long history around here of doing this shit.
You post your avatar around every time, too, making it plain and clear who's behind it every time.
You've openly stated you hope for a fate worse than death against those you disagree with.
You have absolutely no room to say a damn word on any of this.
YOU are a major part of the problem. I can say with absolute certainty you wouldn't give a shit if me and my family were dragged out to the street and burned alive, because you've openly said as much.
This level of hypocrisy is insulting.

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:32:54 No.13874

>>13873
>I can say with absolute certainty you wouldn't give a shit if me and my family were dragged out to the street and burned alive, because you've openly said as much.
This level of hypocrisy is insulting.

utterly fascinating thing to say

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:38:53 No.13875

>>13874
>"Well wherever they are, death would be too merciful for them as far as I am concerned."
Literally a quote from them in regards to the covid jazz.
Dude's genuinely unhinged.

Given the level of vitriol they've spewed over the years, I stand by my statement; I genuinely don't think they'd give a fuck.

Helpful Cockatiel 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:43:11 No.13876

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The world would be a better place without people like this.

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:44:33 No.13877

>>13875
I get the sense you're choosing to believe this in order to feel like you get to be the victim

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:45:25 No.13878

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>>13877
It's a direct quote, my dude. Fuck off with your dishonest garbage.

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:46:47 No.13879

>>13878
I wouldn't expect you to be understanding and it shows

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:49:31 No.13880

>>13879
I have literally posted their explicit words.

If anyone lacks understanding, it's clearly you.
Why don't you take your own advice and fuck off already?
You clearly have no interest in honest dialogue.
You're sure as shit not willing to even engage with what I've said.
Why not take your own advice, and "go post somewhere else"?

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:51:39 No.13881

>>13880
I will do that, but I promise you will be no less angry for it

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 20:55:50 No.13882

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>>13881
Probably so.
Someone took a shot at the president, and folk on the left either lament the miss, or try to blame it on folk like me, all the while for 8 years now they've made abundantly clear their hatred and vitriol every step of the way.

I do not consider anger an inherent failing.

Cuddly Clam 07/15/24 (Mon) 21:09:58 No.13883

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>>13870
>I guess it's about typical for narratives, but it's clearly not what you're describing.

Do you even know what the definition of the word 'narrative' is? Cause you're presenting your own narrative here. It's kind of hilariously hypocritical that you are accusing me of 'believing a narrative'. No shit Sherlock, a narrative is a story that's literally what it means. If you think you aren't believing a narrative that you didn't piece together in your own mind you're more uneducated than I thought.

>Throwing shit at the guy on stage isn't merely "protesting

Trump was saying that sort of thing at multiple rallies.

>And of course, I doubt you're gonna say a word for the covering of Antifa types legal fees, either...

Why do you think Antifa ever became a thing in the first place? No it couldn't have been a reaction to Trump's rhetoric or the rise of the alt-right in 2015-2016 could it? Not defending it, but come the fuck on! The article ask 'who is funding antifa?' as if Antifa actions are so expensive that other antifa members couldn't afford it. It's not some conspiracy, Trump is not as universally loved by everyone who pays attention to what he says and recognizes the rhetoric of a demigogue, there doesn't need to be a massive conspiracy to explain it. Trump inspires political violence on both sides.

>s declared himself a christian nationalist?
>Somehow I doubt that.

Never said he did, nor implied it, but he's certainly allied himself with Christian Nationalist if it helps him get power. Hence why Christian Nationalist (especially tjose in the house) have allied with him. Trump is fundamentally a malignant narcissists who treats relationships as fundamentally transactional, you scratch his back, he scratches yours. He doesn't come off as having a drop of sincerity whatsoever. When he campaigns on 'I will be your vengeance' he's talking directly to the kind of people who become Christian Nationalist who play victim when they feel the power and influence they are entitled to as American Christians is waning.

>>13870
>As opposed to the left, who totally have never done that...
>No, I must clearly be misremembering the eight years now we've had of constant vitriol, decrying everyone who would dare side with Trump a horrible monster.
Why, I must be crazy, for even thinking that rhetoric shows up here, on this site, and that I've been told directly me and my family are horrible monsters who want to kill everyone different to them.
Clearly the left are totally the party of peace and order and civility, and are totally opposed to such rhetoric...

None of that contradicts my point. It's blame shifting really. The left is pretty scared of the right and have been so because of the alt-right alongside the long history of the moderate right courting the votes of the far-right, going back at least to the cold war.

Again, not condoning political violence but come the fuck on, that violence on the left is fueled by fear and disgust just as much as on the right. But the right's been using that same paranoia for decades. They've been pretty filthy opportunist with it since McCarthyism and the John Birch society. It's also basically the entire brand of AM talk radio political pundits since Rush Limbaugh.

>>13872
>By the same token the reverse is true, though.

No shit, making any assumptions of conspiracy in an absence of any evidence of motive is not rational now is it?

>But of course it's the right that's the big threat here.

Trump is the big threat here, he inspires violence on both sides here.

He's a fucking demigogue and always has been. That's apparent from his speeches and social media posts, no other spin needed.

>I'm going to be dead blunt; You've had a long history around here of doing this shit.
>You post your avatar around every time, too, making it plain and clear who's behind it every time.
You've openly stated you hope for a fate worse than death against those you disagree with.

I obviously don't care if anyone knows I am Andrea over on /pony/ I don't give a shit about forced anonymity on /townhall/. I am frankly disgusted with the hypocrisy of people here. I've posted things here anonymously trying to share different perspectives on here only to have Moony inform me such things were reported as 'propoganda' rather than gaining calm engagement with it. That speaks volumes about the character of someone here that I could calmy post a refutation of a strawman and get reported for something that isn't even a violation of the rules here and there are at least two regulars here I suspect are just that spineless and hypocritical.

>YOU are a major part of the problem. I can say with absolute certainty you wouldn't give a shit if me and my family were dragged out to the street and burned alive, because you've openly said as much.
>This level of hypocrisy is insulting.

You maybe, I don't know anything about your family and don't wish any harm on them.

Your shitty fucking attitude that only your suffering in the pandemic mattered is the reason you are morally reprehensible to me. >>13875
>Given the level of vitriol they've spewed over the years, I stand by my statement; I genuinely don't think they'd give a fuck.

No, I don't give a fuck about people who don't give a fuck about anyone other than themselves. I confirm it. Andrea hates people who don't care about anyone's suffering other than themselves and those they know by name.

>>13877
>I get the sense you're choosing to believe this in order to feel like you get to be the victim.

They have breathing issues and were forced to wear a mask continuously for 8 hours straight and were ostracized for complaining about it ...

And they think that was worse than dying of covid, like a member of my family did. I doubt they'd even want to understand the feelings of people like me, rather, they'd cling to some bullshit narrative about how the masking only existed for the sake of ostracizing those who wouldn't or couldn't wear it comfortably

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 21:31:52 No.13884

>>13882
consider why you get to be angry and they don't

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 21:35:29 No.13885

>>13883
>Do you even know what the definition of the word 'narrative' is?
Sure. But in this context, I am meaning it in the colloquial "spin of a story.
Which ought to've been obvious, but, I guess intelligence is your dump stat.

>Trump was saying that sort of thing at multiple rallies.
By all means, cite it. This is the one I found.

>Why do you think Antifa ever became a thing in the first place?
Because the left wing largely approves of violence against its political enemies.
> No it couldn't have been a reaction to Trump's rhetoric or the rise of the alt-right in 2015-2016 could it?
Antifa existed prior to either of those.
They might well've grown in that time, and I'd be inclined to agree that the violence escalated. But they did, regardless, exist before.
>' as if Antifa actions are so expensive that other antifa members couldn't afford it.
Legal expenses are indeed expensive.
While I'd agree that most these types in Antifa are upper middle class types, there's still benefit to larger funding for legal expenses, as even upper middle class types can't exactly afford a huge pile for attorney fees.

>Never said he did, nor implied it,
>>13862
>", I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter saw himself as trying to protect America from a potential Christian Nationalist take over"
This is unfortunately very typical of you, but you really struggle with context.
Ironically, contrary to your claims, you do seem to have the memory of a goldfish.

>that violence on the left is fueled by fear and disgust
Which has absolutely been courted and encouraged by politicians and media alike.
How many times has Trump been called a "threat to democracy"?

Oh, but of course, you believe it, so I guess it's okay...

>Trump is the big threat here, he inspires violence on both sides here.
By your logic if someone takes a shot at Ron Paul, it's Ron Paul's fault because he makes some lunatics scared.
It's garbage.

>get reported for something that isn't even a violation of the rules here and there are at least two regulars here I suspect are just that spineless and hypocritical.
Can only speak personally, but I never report anything, because my experience with the staff here is that they're largely useless and only try to curtail drama, regardless of justice, rules, or guilt.

Which, frankly, is why you're still around. You do have a level of vitriol that goes routinely against the rules, after all.

>You maybe,
Kek
Glad you've admitted to it, you psycho.

>>13884
They can be angry if they want. I'm not preventing them. Though their anger seems to be unjustified.
And, hey, as we just saw... Contrary to your dishonesty, Andrea is quite happy to admit, they do find it fine if I were killed in the street.
So maybe you ought be asking yourself "Why am I defending these kinds of people?"

Strong Pigeon 07/15/24 (Mon) 21:38:39 No.13886

>>13885
because they are angry about what caused them the loss of family and I can relate to that

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:23:52 No.13891

>>13886
Anger is poor justification for such actions.
I can sympathize with the loss of a family member, but that hardly excuses such vitriol and hatred.

Fabulous Cheetah 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:31:14 No.13892

>>13891
It's telling that you're not willing to take a step back and show some empathy for that

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:34:10 No.13893

>>13892
When I'm told someone wishes me and my family a fate worse than death, I'm not going to excuse that just because of some personal tragedy that person's experienced.
It isn't an excuse.
Especially not to people who've done nothing to them, who had nothing to do with that tragedy.

Why do you take the stance that, just because something bad happened in your life, and you're mad about it, cruelty and hatred to those uninvolved is acceptable?
Why do you talk of "empathy" whilst holding that position yourself? Isn't it contradictory?

Fabulous Cheetah 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:43:22 No.13894

>>13893
It shows that you don't care about their family in the first place. It shows you don't care about why you got some mean words thrown your way, which, you clearly deserved. They don't owe you sensitivity towards your own feelings.

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:46:38 No.13895

>>13894
>It shows that you don't care about their family in the first place.
I don't know them. The extent of my sympathy can only extend to the concept of losing a loved one.
What more could you expect?

>It shows you don't care about why you got some mean words thrown your way, which, you clearly deserved.
I've never met their family, nor done anything to their family.
Why would I deserve this, for something I've not done?

>They don't owe you sensitivity towards your own feelings.
It's not a matter of what they "owe".
I am specifically speaking of their actions, not inaction.

Fabulous Cheetah 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:52:56 No.13896

>>13895
>I don't know their family
You know they're dead and that just does not mean a thing to you

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:53:59 No.13897

>>13896
See >>13895
>"The extent of my sympathy can only extend to the concept of losing a loved one."
As well as >>13891
>"I can sympathize with the loss of a family member,"

Fabulous Cheetah 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:54:38 No.13898

>>13897
Except it didn't, you doubled down on your take

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:55:49 No.13899

>>13898
See >>13891
>"...but that hardly excuses such vitriol and hatred."

Colorful Giraffe 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:56:25 No.13900

Some are saying that it has had a spiritual effect on him...

Fabulous Cheetah 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:56:43 No.13901

>>13899
No? But you've every opportunity to admit you're wrong too

Tender Griffon 07/15/24 (Mon) 23:58:47 No.13902

>>13901
>No?
...Yes?

Personal tragedy does not justify immortal actions.
I and my family had nothing to do with him and his.
His hatred is unjustified, unwarranted, and certainly beyond the pale, given it's festered to the point of wishing a fate worse than death onto people like me.

Colorful Giraffe 07/16/24 (Tue) 00:01:26 No.13903

File: 1721088086723.jpeg (138.56 KB, 1058x1126, 529:563, GSeUQcHXcAA_Dr1.jpeg) ImgOps Google

https://x.com/eigenrobot/status/1812584064588668994

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/14/trump-shooting-news-thomas-matthew-crooks-investigation/#link-HRSUZBAZCFD77JATKHSDOTSH54

Fabulous Cheetah 07/16/24 (Tue) 00:01:46 No.13904

>>13902
Buddy, you aren't special. You don't deserve the consideration you're asking for because your capacity for understanding is that shallow.

Tender Griffon 07/16/24 (Tue) 00:02:38 No.13905

>>13904
I'm not asking for special consideration.
I am condemning immoral actions.
I am condemning vitriol and hatred upon me and my family to the point of wishing we suffer a fate worse than death over something we had nothing to do with.

Proud Narwhal 07/16/24 (Tue) 00:42:33 No.13906

>>13905
>over something we had nothing to do with.

I mean, that's the actual accusation, right? Obviously you disagree, and I doubt it's even worth discussing between the two of you. But the claim is that the reason their family members died is because people weren't taking the pandemic seriously, and either opposed or refused to cooperate with directives to contain it. They consider you a part of that group to some extent, and therefore a contributor to the death of their family.

Gorgeous Pigeon 07/16/24 (Tue) 00:48:40 No.13907

>>13906
>I mean, that's the actual accusation, right? Obviously you disagree, and I doubt it's even worth discussing between the two of you. But the claim is that the reason Donald Trump was shot is because people ceaselessly accused Trump of being worse than Hitler, and either agreed with this assessment or refused to push back against it. They consider you a part of that group to some extent, and therefore a contributor to the assassination attempt on Trump.
See we can play this game too.

Proud Narwhal 07/16/24 (Tue) 01:09:36 No.13908

>>13907

What game? That's just also a correct statement.

Cuddly Clam 07/16/24 (Tue) 09:14:10 No.13909

File: 1721121250262.jpg (354.44 KB, 1330x1489, 1330:1489, Screenshot_20210114-220046….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>13885
>But in this context, I am meaning it in the colloquial "spin of a story.
>Which ought to've been obvious, but, I guess intelligence is your dump stat.

Sorry we don't all spend time in your echo chambers, in case your just incapable of perspective shifting.

Regardless, you're projecting here.

>Because the left wing largely approves of violence against its political enemies.

You see why you come off as tribalistic? This is basically doing the same shit you cry about when you act like the fucking victim. Crap strawmen like this have been getting posted here for years and you'd have the fucking gall to to cry about a breakdown on civility here in /townhall/. Yeah, I am a leftist, a moderate leftist, part of the majority of leftist in this country and I vehemently disapprove of political violence, contrary to what bullshit you encounter in your echo chambers. I lurk here far more than I post here, I see this shit here all the time! You're a hypocrit.

>>13885
>Antifa existed prior to either of those.

Yes, there is a historical antifa that formed in response to Mussollini. That is what the current Antifa named themselves after.

>Which, frankly, is why you're still around. You do have a level of vitriol that goes routinely against the rules, after all.

I'm too infuriated and disgusted to care.

Besides, it's not like you or any of you other assholes ever care about civility here if someone post an opinion or perspective opposed to yours. I mean, you resort to mocking so fucking frequently dude! Why the fuck should I believe you give a shit about the rules?

>Glad you've admitted to it, you psycho.

My initial post in that covid thread was a hyperbolic post expressing my seething hate and rage for an attitude, I already said this many times by this point. I wasn't being too hyperbolic though. My family was suffering and dying in Texas while everyone around them refused to even consider it might be possible that following even the bare minimum guidelines might have helped people in their community even a little bit. That possibility was of no importance to anyone there, none of my family's neighbors gave a shit if it meant being inconvenienced, or if it made their own struggles with the pandemic seem less entitling by comparison. That they'd be so petty and entitled and completely apathetic to anyone's problems but their own when their neighbors are dying is fucking abhorrent. You've demonstrated that you had and still have that exact same attitude. That you can string together post-hoc justifications with cherry-picked news articles demonstrates you missed my point, your attitude is abhorrent. You disgust me beyond measure you goddamned sociopath. Why the fuck should anyone care about how hard it was for you to have a shitty job with shitty management that forced you to wear a cloth mask while you had breathing issues for 8 hours straight, when you wouldn't care about anyone but yourself in all that and pathetically grasp at straws to spin a narrative that makes you the biggest victim. You are fucking disgusting. Who the fuck are you to claim you have morals?

You're goddamn right I would wish to see you suffer a fate worse than death, you and everyone else like you. Is it really that fucking hard to shift perspective or are you just a spineless coward?

>But the claim is that the reason their family members died is because people weren't taking the pandemic seriously, and either opposed or refused to cooperate with directives to contain it.

Close, it was the reason they weren't taking it seriously that completely disgusts me. It's the the selfishness and the cowardly refusal to engage with even the possibility that the precaution was at least reasonable given all the unknowns at the time.

>>13907

>missing the point this badly

Trump isn't my family, asshole.

Energetic Narwhal 07/16/24 (Tue) 09:40:15 No.13910

>>13909
>in case your just incapable of perspective shifting.
It's not a matter of perspective or bubbles, but simple context clues.

>Yeah, I am a leftist, a moderate leftist, part of the majority of leftist in this country and I vehemently disapprove of political violence
Now I'll admit it's been a long while, and if I'm remembering wrong, I'm remembering wrong. But I swear you were well in support of the whole "punch a nazi" thing.
As well as for that matter, come to think of it, the BLM riots...

Regardless, I will maintain the claim that it is a common stance among the left, as I've heard it repeated for years, without challenge internally.
The only folk who ever seem to hold back is politicians, and that seems to be over a legal concern.

>That is what the current Antifa named themselves after.
Sure. I am aware of that.
But they also existed prior to Trump's campaign, regardless.

>I mean, you resort to mocking so fucking frequently dude! Why the fuck should I believe you give a shit about the rules?
I engage in it when I'm met with it.
I don't care about the rules inherently. A level of decorum, though? Sure. Regardless, though, I will respond in kind when someone swings; I will always meet their conduct in kind.

>You've demonstrated that you had and still have that exact same attitude.
You've presumed my attitude because I had the audacity to disagree with you. Because I had the audacity to cite the studies done that suggest it made no difference. That I pointed out the health problems caused by stifled breathing for significant sections of the day. That I pointed out your dishonesty in claiming it's only for a short time, and not required in most cases the entire time you're working.

You made your judgements based solely on the fact that I didn't blindly accept your rhetoric, uncritically.
You made a myriad of presuppositions on me for that, including of my orientation, and regard to those who share that sexual orientation.

>Is it really that fucking hard to shift perspective or are you just a spineless coward?
What "perspective"?
That you already diluted and otherly psychopathic piece of human filth and abject garbage human being who has no capacity for empathy or understanding?

I already know it.

You can call me a coward all you like I am perfectly happy to stand firm on the stance I have shared.
Regardless of the hatred that people like you expose and regardless of the threats I have directly faced from scum like you.
I value truth over even my own personal safety. At the end of the day I won't stop talking about this time to thing and pointing out your blatant dishonest no matter how much you bawl and cry and seethe and moan about my existence.

I hardly see what's cowardly about that. Frankly I've wager what well I am far more capable a person than you.

If you ever want to organize some fanciful boxing ring match or a duel to the death by all means I'm perfectly willing if that's what you wish.
Unlike you I don't really care if you live or die, Unlike you I don't wish you a fate worse than death, But I would wager good money unlike you I am actually willing to die for my beliefs whereas you would doubtless grovel at the boot for the chance of survival.

>It's the the selfishness and the cowardly refusal to engage with even the possibility that the precaution was at least reasonable given all the unknowns at the time.
Because it's an ASSUMPTION.

You are genuinely the kind of filth who would sit by and watch which is the garden at the stake because you're so scared and they're gonna be so touch fucking damage.
You would happily regard itha whatever the government feeds you blindly, while they massacre your fellow man

Ever hear of the Tuskegee experiments?
Who the fuck am I kidding you probably support the Tuskeegee experiments.

Anything to save you're sorry hide regardless of the truth of the matter regardless of the reality regardless of the evidence fuck all of.
If it's even the remotely possible no matter how absurd no matter how fence fuck it all might as well just throw everybody dislike on the fucking pire

You are human garbage. And filth like you is why Trump will win, we'll have four more years, and despite everything you do trying to drag us down, we'll all be better for it.

Energetic Narwhal 07/16/24 (Tue) 09:47:05 No.13911

Mark my words if Andrea was born in Germany, walking around 1940s, they'd 100% be marching in lockstep with the nazis, lining up dissidents against the wall, all in the name of the assumed 'greatest good', and insisting if it 'might' help, we all should willingly toss aside our rights for the Fuhrer...

A bootlicking rat is all they'll ever amount to be.(this one is over the line. let us debate respectfully in the townhall.)

Joyous Eagle 07/16/24 (Tue) 20:16:39 No.13914

File: 1721160999750.jpg (83.79 KB, 716x980, 179:245, TRUMP KUN DUCK MY FRIENDU.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>13911

Unrelated but I love that the video has to tell you it's altered content

Like cheers video without you telling me that I would have assumed Trump flew into the rap studio to cover 50 cent

Cuddly Clam 07/16/24 (Tue) 20:29:21 No.13915

>>13910
>It's not a matter of perspective or bubbles, but simple context clues.

No, I am not familiar with using 'narrative' to mean something like 'spin doctoring', I would assume thats how the word is used in other communities you or Tender Griffin here also frequent. That it wouldn't occur to me that's how Tender Griffin or you would use the word isn't a matter of stupidity on my part but a lack of perspective shifting on Griffen's part.

>But I swear you were well in support of the whole "punch a nazi" thing.

I said I didn't have sympathy for Nazis getting punched in the face. But there's a big difference between punching an asshole in the face for being an asshole, and attempting to assassinate a political rival for the sake of political change.

>As well as for that matter, come to think of it, the BLM riots...

I expressed an understanding, that's not of why it happened, and cowards were in complete denial of any facts that would have made it understandable if it meant Derrick Chauvin was guilty of using excessive force, or for that matter that any excessive force and disproportionate punishment that has been going on in minority communities for decades, all while being protected from any accountability for it too.

That doesn't justify the riots, but the riots don't absolve law enforcement.

>>13910
>I engage in it when I'm met with it.
>I don't care about the rules inherently. A level of decorum, though? Sure. Regardless, though, I will respond in kind when someone swings; I will always meet their conduct in kind.

Bullshit. I've posted here without using my avatar many times in the past only to get mocked, usually with something starting with 'M-M-M-MUH ...' 4chan bullshit.

And that post that got reported for propoganda? I posted in a thread about Aunt Jemima changing its branding to Pearl Milling company sharing a perspective, sharing the basic reason why most who had the problem they had with those characters and it got fucking reported to Moony for being 'propoganda', and that asshole who avatars as that one guy in 'Washington crossing the Delaware' was completely fucking knee-jerk accusing me of grasping at straws to be upset when I was calmy sharing a perspective not brought up. And then when I reacted in kind to them.being an asshole they act like a fucking wife beater and tell me to calm down? What does that say about you assholes? Do you fucking think y'all are entitled to an echo chamber here to protect your thin skin?

You fucks do that shit unprovoked and act like you're not the one's punching first? Seriously go fuck yourself you fake ass hypocrite

>>13910
>You've presumed my attitude because I had the audacity to disagree with you. Because I had the audacity to cite the studies done that suggest it made no difference. That I pointed out the health problems caused by stifled breathing for significant sections of the day. That I pointed out your dishonesty in claiming it's only for a short time, and not required in most cases the entire time you're working.

Yeah, that was all strawgrasping and is completely irrelevant in light of how much was still unknown at the time. The narrative you grasp at for this post-hoc rationalization of it all stinks of desperate self-justification and doesn't absolve anyone of selfishness at that time, it's desperately trying to make a mountain out of a molehill to coward avoid the possibility that giving in to the blatant cynical attempt by right-wing media to turn wearing a goddamn mask in indoor crowded areas into a bullshit culture war issue.

It's a disgustingly thin-skinned and flimsy justification to even consider that, when so much was still unknown that it was a reasonable precaution. Even if it turned out to do nothing in hindsight, it still represents that at the time people with that attitude still cared more about their inconvenience than even the possibility that doing something so minor might have been helpful to people in their own community was somehow fucking taboo to consider. Fuck y'alls flimsy fucking excuses.

>You made a myriad of presuppositions on me for that, including of my orientation, and regard to those who share that sexual orientation.

Fuck, and you think I'm the one who struggles with context. Are you just incapable of reading comprehension? My whole point there was to say I'm not impressed by your thin-skinned bullshit complaints about being ostracized, given that I've spent decades being ostracized for being queer, you spoiled rotten fuck

>>13910
>What "perspective"?

My perspective, and the perspective of people who were most at risk of a life threatening reaction to covid you fucking psychopath! Or for that matter anyone who had family at risk!

>That you already diluted and otherly psychopathic piece of human filth and abject garbage human being who has no capacity for empathy or understanding?

The projection here is fucking absurd

>I value truth over even my own personal safety. At the end of the day I won't stop talking about this time to thing and pointing out your blatant dishonest no matter how much you bawl and cry and seethe and moan about my existence

Yeah, masking was never about your personal safety alone you fucking hypocrite! You and people like you are too fucking cowardly to acknowledge that cause it would make you the petty selfish asshole. You keep cowardly refusing to engage with the possibility that when so much was still unknown, that masking and physical distancing was a reasonable ask, especially given how little of an ask it was, even for people with preexisting breathing issues. Your only response to that point was that people do a lot of stupid things 'just in case', continuing to make a mountain out of a molehill over fucking wearing a mask in your flimsy attempt to avoid the possibility that you're just a selfish asshole.

>Unlike you I don't really care if you live or die, Unlike you I don't wish you a fate worse than death, But I would wager good money unlike you I am actually willing to die for my beliefs whereas you would doubtless grovel at the boot for the chance of survival.

All this fucking hyperbole and inauthenticity over being asked to take precaution for the people whose lives you can have a direct effect on. Get the fuck over yourself you hypocrite.

I don't follow rules just cause they're rules, the justification for the rules, if it's reasonable, that's when I follow it. I wasn't personally at risk for severe covid, I didn't wear mask indoors out of fear for my survival, but out of courtesy for people in my neighborhood, just in case. Same fucking reason I don't fucking drive without my glasses even if my nearsightedness is mild enough that I can drive perfectly safely in areas where I wouldn't expect a lot of traffic or pedestrians. Does it make me a bootlicker to obey the law that I have to wear glasses when driving because of my mild myopia? The safety of others around me is perfectly fine justification for doing something I kind of find annoying to do, especially because I keep misplacing my glasses thanks to ADHD and that further makes getting out of the house on time a challenge for me. If I just said 'fuck it' and drove through a crowded part of the city without my glasses, I'd still be the asshole even if no one got hurt.

That's really basic fucking responsibility and that thin skinned shitheads like you would grasp at as many straws as you can to spin the inconvenience of masking out to be some fucking tyranny or just reveals how much of a fucking spoiled rotten hypocritical narcissist you are.

>Because it's an ASSUMPTION.

WHY DOES THAT MATTER!!? Of course it was a fucking assumption! That what hypothesis are! Do you not fucking understand what justifies the scientific method? Or would it be too inconvenient for your narcissistic victimhood complex!? There were people dying of covid and there was still a [i]lot[/i of unknowns at the time and a potential disaster to try and mitigate until those answers became apparent! Okay, fine, you care about 'the truth' but can't seem to accept that sometimes the truth is apparent to no one, and finding it takes time.

This is the most flimsy fucking and morally reprehensible justification for refusing something as simple as wearing a goddamn piece of paper or cloth over your face. It's fucking arrogant as shit, deeply reprehensibly arrogant. A pathetic justification for acting like a fucking toddler about it all.

>>13910
>You would happily regard itha whatever the government feeds you blindly, while they massacre your fellow man

Fucking pathetic that you would try to spin wearing a fucking mask is a 'massacre', get the fucknover yourself you spoiled brat. You're exactly the k8nd of person I was originally talking about.

>Ever hear of the Tuskegee experiments?
>Who the fuck am I kidding you probably support the Tuskeegee experiments.

I am familiar with the Tuskeegee experiments, your false equivalency is fucking disgusting, wearing fucking mask was not the fucking same as being injected with something they were being lied about. I wasn't even criticizing vaccine hesitancy either you dishonest fuck.

>>13910
>Anything to save you're sorry hide regardless of the truth of the matter regardless of the reality regardless of the evidence fuck all of.

>Anything to save you're sorry hide regardless of the truth of the matter regardless of the reality regardless of the evidence fuck all of.
>If it's even the remotely possible no matter how absurd no matter how fence fuck it all might as well just throw everybody dislike on the fucking pire

Jesus Christ the projection here is bright, turn it down or tale it toma theater, die in a fire you fucking coward

Tender Griffon 07/16/24 (Tue) 22:17:56 No.13916

>>13915
>No, I am not familiar with using 'narrative'
I didn't say you were. I said that context clues would obviously lead you to the intended meaning.

>I said I didn't have sympathy for, I expressed an understanding,
Both of which certainly fall under the umbrella of "support", even if we took your milquetoast position now.
Which of course, I don't, because I know you were arguing against folk who called out the behavior at the time.

>and attempting to assassinate a political rival for the sake of political change.
True, but one is certainly a strong step to that route.
It's why ultimately the dems are in a panic, suddenly changing their tune.
Because decades of advocating for political violence suddenly look really bad, when we see the logical conclusion of advocating for political violence.

>. I've posted here without using my avatar
Your avatar is not what's at issue, dipshit.

I'm not offended that you post a stupid looking avatar.

>What does that say about you assholes?
I already said I don't report shit, dumbass.
I don't think it does anything meaningful, I don't particularily like Moony, and frankly I find issue in the way staff here conducts themselves.

I am not responsible for some other guy's reporting of you, any more than you're responsible for Destiny's mockery of a father who got shot trying to shield his family.

Not to say I'm shocked you're pulling this garbage.
You are a tribalist, after all.
You can only think in terms of group, collective responsibility.
Everyone who disagrees with you is obviously all lumped together as a great grandiose "enemy".
So it's no shocker you can't tell the difference between my actions and some fuck I don't even know.

Tender Griffon 07/16/24 (Tue) 22:26:13 No.13917

File: 1721168773267.png (329.03 KB, 2308x745, 2308:745, 24241421124.PNG) ImgOps Google

>>13915
>how much was still unknown at the time.
Stuff being "unknown" is not good cause to blindly just do something.

>and doesn't absolve anyone of selfishness at that time,
You ASSUME selfishness, though.
That's the big issue.
You make a heap of assumptions knowing nothing of these peopel, why they did what they did, what motivated them, anything.

You just say 'UR SELFIS" as if that's the end all be all.

>so much was still unknown that it was a reasonable precaution.
Based on what?
Because I certainly don't see it as a reasonable precaution.

If you're sick, sure. That makes sense.
But just all the time? No. That makes no sense. That's going to frag your immune system. That's going to keep moisture, both from you and those around you, plastered to your face for 8+ hours.
And that's leaving aside that they told us it wasn't necessary at the start, before changing their mind.

And this is leaving aside, too, all the heaps of lies on top of that, we got told. The biggest of all is the "Flatten the curve" bullshit.

> Even if it turned out to do nothing in hindsight, it still represents that at the time people with that attitude
Again, an attitude that you, an idiot, ASSUME.

Your dipshit moronic assumption of people who you hate is hardly fact.

You ASSUME the why.
You do not KNOW the why.
When I have tried to explain it to you, you insist it's some "self justification".

There's no convincing you, of course;
Everyone who disagrees with you, by your world view, is an evil monster deserving to be tortured to death.

>Fuck, and you think I'm the one who struggles with context. Are you just incapable of reading comprehension?
You explicitly said "shitheads like me" have been harassing you.
That is literally a direct quote.

You can keep lying about it, but you hiding from your own statements, desperate to make them something totally different from what you actually fucking said, makes clear you're the coward, not I.
>>13669
>"Bitch I'm fucking queer and shitheads like you have been harassing me about it and telling me I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity and that merely existing publicly out is 'grooming' kids."

Tender Griffon 07/16/24 (Tue) 22:38:57 No.13918

>>13915
>My perspective, and the perspective of people who were most at risk of a life threatening reaction to covid you fucking psychopath! Or for that matter anyone who had family at risk!
I understand perfectly well that you and your family had an emotional, irrational response, over the fear that the media propagandized you to.

I just do not believe that justifies your actions.

>masking was never about your personal safety alone you fucking hypocrite!
I know?
That wasn't what is at issue?
Are you retarded?
Don't answer that. We both know the answer's "yes".

I've already explained numerous times the issues I had with masks, as I had major doubts from the very beginning as to its efficacy.
Considering the FDC, guys like Fauci, the media, and many others told us early on that masks were totally not necessary and woudln't help... Well, my doubts just compounded when suddenly they changed their tune and insisted we wear them 8+ hours a day.

>You and people like you are too fucking cowardly to acknowledge that cause it would make you the petty selfish asshole.
That's YOUR ASSUMPTION.

I am not responsible for the retarded creation in your own stupid fucking mind.

I could tell you you're an evil pedophile, a guy who wants nothing more than to diddle kids, and who goes out day in and day out fishing for them online.
Does that make it true?
Of course fucking not.

You've chosen to entirely ignore my repeated explanations of my cause for doubting the masks, and insist even though I did wear them because I had no fucking choice because I'd lose my fucking job if I didn't, I'm somehow a selfish asshole.

Fundamentally all this breaks down to a simple "If you disagree with me you are evil".
That is the root cause of your entire mindset.
Doesn't matter what I say. None of the facts or explanations mean a damn thing to you.
End of the day, I disagree with you, and that means I'm an evil monster who should be burned alive.

> You keep cowardly refusing to engage with the possibility
I DID engage with the possibility.
I found it fucking wanting, dickhead.

>Does it make me a bootlicker to obey the law
No.
What makes you a bootlicker is blindly following whatever the establishment tells you without a single question or critical eye, even if they told you yesterday the exact fucking opposite.

What makes you a bootlicker is that you follow orders without a doubt in your mind.
You just regurgitate the lines of your masters, without ever thinking about them.
That's what makes you a bootlicker.

>WHY DOES THAT MATTER!!?
BECAUSE YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW YOU RETARD

GOOD GOD YOU ARE GENUINELY THE MOST STUPID MORONIC IDIOT ON THE FUCKING PLANET

HOW DENSE ARE YOU

>Do you not fucking understand what justifies the scientific method?
Yeah, you make an assumption and you TEST it, dipshit.

You don't just declare sometihng, and order everyone to follow along blindly, ignoring the fact that you said something different yesterday.

>here were people dying of covid and there was still a lot of unknowns at the time and a potential disaster to try and mitigate until those answers became apparent!
Sure, and MASKS WOULDN'T SOLVE IT.
I got that from simple examination of the fucking concept.

It didn't take a damn rocket science to see, stifling breathing for significant chunks of the day'll lower your damn immune system, and a cloth isn't going to prevent a cough or a sneeze from passing through besides.

You ASSUMED it would, blindly, uncritically, without a single thought in your mind, and you have the audacity to screech and cry and moan and bitch about anyone who dared think for half a second instead of blindly following the narrative.

Facts didn't matter to you. The view of numerous scientists and medical professionals didn't matter to you.
Only what the news media told you, what the politicians said to do.
You didn't care about logic or reason or rationality.
You just cared about emotional fear, panic, and paranoia.

Tender Griffon 07/16/24 (Tue) 22:41:36 No.13919

>>13915
>, die in a fire you fucking coward
Whenever you'd like, you let me know, I'll be happy to fly out to you. We can have a boxing match, some cage fight, a HEMA fare, hell I'll shoot you in a classic duel if you want. You just let me know if you really stand by that crap, I'll be there.

You won't, of course, because the difference between you and I is rather clear.
You talk tough on the internet.
You call others cowards on the internet.
You've not an ounce of bravery of your own,.

Peaceful Mouse 07/17/24 (Wed) 01:20:23 No.13920

What a toxic place we have made.

Cheerful Zebra 07/17/24 (Wed) 08:17:33 No.13921

>>13807

...so boring. ho hum.

Cuddly Clam 07/17/24 (Wed) 19:55:24 No.13925

Agreeable Turtle 07/17/24 (Wed) 22:14:59 No.13935

File: 1721254499738.jpg (12.95 KB, 480x360, 4:3, guts with his sword.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7dcBph_ro&t=35s

Strong Pigeon 07/18/24 (Thu) 01:40:46 No.13942

>>13918
how do you become this autistic

Energetic Narwhal 07/18/24 (Thu) 01:53:34 No.13943

>>13942
Typically you're born with it.

Strong Pigeon 07/18/24 (Thu) 02:01:06 No.13944

>>13943
what a bummer for this dude

Colorful Giraffe 07/25/24 (Thu) 05:24:39 No.14049

File: 1721885079001.png (311.29 KB, 1080x1014, 180:169, Screenshot_20240724-211011.png) ImgOps Google

https://www.stevesailer.net/p/secret-service-deidie-what-did-the

Agreeable Turtle 08/04/24 (Sun) 05:22:27 No.14133

File: 1722748947797.jpg (67.89 KB, 800x505, 160:101, I am nonny.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

I think Trump is a pretty good president. I think Biden was a pretty bad president. And I think Kamala Harris is going to be worse than the two combined if she were to ever take office. I also don't judge anyone on an individual level for wanting to vote for either.

I also think it's important to understand that while you might not agree with others who disagree with you, that you should condemn them for their opinions. Everyone thinks they have the right answer, when I don't think anyone of us has the answers for others. The thing about electing any leader is that some will prosper and others will not prosper as much. We can't make everyone happy. Sometimes a little conflict is healthy. It becomes less so when people are at each others throats and ready to do combat rather than actually talk.

It is easy to get emotionally charged by someone else's opinion, but that's really all it is; and someone's right to vote is their absolute right, just as their opinion. That is the reason I've had friends with everyone from people who were racists towards my race, sexists towards my sex, phobic towards my sexual orientation, or even object towards my ideology when it comes to life as a whole. It doesn't bother me that some people inherently hate whatever category I fall into. I've made friends with cis people and whites; as if that were an accomplishment. And I've also have had friends with people who were considered different such as transgendered folks, homosexuals, minorities, the elderly; hell, some people even think that befriending the handicapped is strange. (As if any of that is an accomplishment either.)

I've befriended people I agree with and groups of people I might even hate deep within my heart. I give individuals chances.

My point is that while there are some lines that people have to draw in the sand, wisdom comes from everywhere and you never know just what you might find out about people and knowledge comes from all sources; even if it's someone who you might think of as a piece of shit. The moment we become so sure of ourselves is the moment we are susceptive to behaving and thinking foolishly. Sure, people can hate my many demographics: my race, my age, my sex, who I like to sleep with; but at the end of the day all I can do is try to be a good individual. I might not convince someone my various tribes are all that great, but I can still have a conversation.

Agreeable Turtle 08/04/24 (Sun) 05:49:45 No.14134

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>>13883
Antifa wasn't a conspiracy. You've got that right. It was a group of "Soyboy cuckolds" who spread through the internet just as any other big moment gains traction these days and in 2016. It's just like how the right side had the Proud Boys or whatever they were called. They are both two groups pretending to be non-violent while being extremely violent in nature.
>I obviously don't care if anyone knows I am Andrea over on /pony/ I don't give a shit about forced anonymity on /townhall/. I am frankly disgusted with the hypocrisy of people here. I've posted things here anonymously trying to share different perspectives on here only to have Moony inform me such things were reported as 'propoganda' rather than gaining calm engagement with it.
If it means anything, I value and respect your opinion. I think I can understand where your frustrations come from and what it might feel like, even if not in the exact same manner you do. I don't see it as propaganda. I see two people who feel strongly about their beliefs and are talking about it in a passionate manner.
>>13885
I've read your posts and I can see where you're coming from as well. The same applies to you. I respect and value your opinion.
>Because the left wing largely approves of violence against its political enemies.
Lol. Lmao even. Both sides do. The right will call for political violence in the name of "God first, nation second, and family third!" *Sniff, sniff.* The good ole' Red, white, and beer! Where as the left have been having for political violence since at least the 60's. "H-Hey guys, we need to bring the guillotine back and support the black panthers!"

As for the "Fate worse than death," thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MiP1MJC7EU

I get that it's not the nicest thing to say, but how many of have never wished death or misfortune upon someone else? Whether in hyperbole or quite literally for that matter. Everyone here and everyone in existence has had thoughts and wishes of death; either on someone else or their own life. That is actually quite natural. I don't know Andrea personally, but from what I've read, I don't really think they would be the type that if you and your family were in front of them that they would commit to an act of violence that would be considered a fate worse than death. Maybe they would; maybe they wouldn't. All I know is that it is very easy to say negative words online; the hard thing to do sometimes is to show sympathy and forgiveness.

And yes, I am being a hypocrite. If someone were to tell me that they wanted to see me experience torture, I would fling mud right back in their eyes. I agree in that personal tragedies do not necessarily justify vitriol, but I also think that sometimes strength comes from humility and understanding; to show pity instead of malice, especially when there is no true harm to begin with. Pain is a powerful thing. It makes us act rash and stupid. So take it from me: a vengeful spirit; that I know what it is like to feel slighted and seek your pound of flesh in return.

Tender Griffon 08/04/24 (Sun) 20:49:43 No.14135

>>14134
> "God first, nation second, and family third!"
I'll have to hunt down the study, but as I recall, the evidence suggests the reverse, actually.
Leftists'll prioritize 'the group' before their family or loved ones, whereas the right, it's the reverse, with priority starting with family, and then out to the whole as one might expect through each category.

>but how many of have never wished death or misfortune upon someone else?
There's pretty obvious distinction between wishing something internally, and in advocating it openly.

Regardless, I don't think you follow my issue in actuality;
It's the dehumanization and demonization of Andrea's political enemies I take issue with.
I'm not interested in vengeance, nor forgiveness, nor sympathy or malice.
This isn't about some personal slight. It's about incredibly shitty mindset they hold that gets people murdered in the street, frankly.

Like you said; Antifa wasn't some conspiracy. They spread through the internet for a reason.
People like Andrea here are that reason.
They operate with such a level of vitriol, they've dropped any necessity of moral consideration to their enemies.

Gifted Cougar 08/04/24 (Sun) 21:39:01 No.14136

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>>14135
>Leftists'll prioritize 'the group' before their family or loved ones, whereas the right, it's the reverse, with priority starting with family, and then out to the whole as one might expect through each category.
I was speaking more so the concept of what they actually say. At the end of the day both sides can be selfish, just as both sides can become cult-like and brain-washy. However, from what I've personally seen the far-right can absolutely take on a herd mentality; like how if they were to find out you support some sort of political figure that doesn't fit into the political mold then you're suddenly "Supporting the lib-tards!"
Both groups act quite similar at the end of the day.

>There's pretty obvious distinction between wishing something internally, and in advocating it openly.
I see no true advocation, rather someone who is upset and didn't quite know how to express their feelings without insult. I know all about that. I can be vindictive and empathetic; combine the two and you have someone who is extremely good at getting under people's skin. It's also why I can understand the feeling to a degree. (And why I have been seeking to be a better person.) Andrea is a human being; as are you; and human beings are flawed creatures that often have trouble expressing their emotions without resorting to extremities at times. Sometimes what we aren't seeking is the suffering of others, but it a contradictory act in trying to be understood; to be accepted on some degree and it is a cry for compassion. Sometimes the hardest thing is to say that out loud.

I see someone who is frustrated and expressing those frustrations in a place that they feel safe. I feel as if she is projecting some of her hatreds from the real world upon you, while you are projecting your own frustrations and attempting to disconnect yourself from it. Is that why it's so easy to tell people to fuck off? You are both embodying something that the other dislikes, and it upsets the two of you; so here you are, engaging in a dance of conflict. You could argue that /pol/ would be a more appropriate place to vent these feelings and thoughts, but we both know that the people here would either be screaming into the void without any sort of recognition or get eaten alive by it.

>Like you said; Antifa wasn't some conspiracy. They spread through the internet for a reason. People like Andrea here are that reason. They operate with such a level of vitriol, they've dropped any necessity of moral consideration to their enemies.
Conflict can be healthy. Conflict can lead to discussion and discussion can lead to understanding. The issue with Antifa is that they knew they were correct, and they knew that anyone who disagreed with them was wrong, and they knew that any other side had to be stomped out with violence. They as well as groups like the Proud Boys preyed on insecure people who were seeking acceptance without confrontation or conflict; an echo chamber where they would be seen as righteous simply by memorizing and advocating dogma and rhetoric.

As I've said, I haven't spoken with Andrea long or even know her personally, but she doesn't seem like the type to actually take action. She doesn't have that spark of true unrelenting hatred. Having a mindset when online and venting isn't what kills people. Acting on that mindset and letting yourself fall into echo chambers is what kills people. You can't be thought-police people after all, but you can certainly challenge one another. I've come to find from personal experience that being sincere and showing others that you are a human seems to work best. An individual has a much harder time dehumanizing you when you show them just how human you can be, but who knows, perhaps I'm wrong.

>This isn't about some personal slight. It's about incredibly shitty mindset they hold that gets people murdered in the street, frankly.
It is an impersonal political attitude that you are taking personal. Is that not why the two of you keep saying "People like you," instead of "You." or "People who think this." It's a way to make it personal without sounding personal.

Gifted Cougar 08/04/24 (Sun) 22:00:43 No.14137

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Anyway, I actually think this little bit of conflict can be healthy. You both have expressed your disdain for one another's opinions and personality. This is an opportunity for understanding.

I think the two of you should kiss and make up and attempt to understand the other's perspective. You don't have to like each other or each other's opinions but respect it. People say respect is to be earned, but a lot of those people forget that respect should be given in order to be received.

I'm gonna go grab a greasy burger a hole-in-the-wall. Anyone want anything?

Wacky Otter 08/05/24 (Mon) 00:30:14 No.14139

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>>14135
>I'll have to hunt down the study, but as I recall, the evidence suggests the reverse, actually.
>Leftists'll prioritize 'the group' before their family or loved ones, whereas the right, it's the reverse, with priority starting with family, and then out to the whole as one might expect through each category.

Was this the study you were thinking of? It was a pretty popular graph to share around.

Issue with the graph is that a) the scales of the graph aren't the same for conservatives vs liberals. Green on the liberal side is equivalent to red on the conservative side. Other issue is b) it doesn't describe what they care about more; it describes the highest thing they care about.

It actually indicates that a lot of conservatives tend to care about their direct family and their friends and basically don't care about anyone or anything else. Whereas liberals tend to care about things like all humans, all animals, the entire planet etc, ON TOP OF their direct family and friends.

Graceful Ferret 08/05/24 (Mon) 02:45:10 No.14140

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>>14135
>>14136
>>14137
>>14139

I'm familiar with the concept of moral scope theory and I think it's built on a logically unsound framing. I see it as framing things as a false dichotomy, i.e. that caring about one's in-group(s) is always at odds with caring about others outside your groups.

It's not that someone like me doesn't care about my family, in fact I care about my family's well being more than anyone else in my life. It's just that I also highly value prohibitive morals when it comes to all people regardless. I treat others as having a fundamental dignity that they can only lose in my eyes based on their moral character.

The difference between me and a particularly jingoistic conservative is that I consider certain morals more important than being loyal. If my loyalties would require me to murder innocent strangers, for instance, then I would break those loyalties. As I see it (most) conservatives share all the same moral principles as someone like me but prioritizes them differently in moral conundrums. That, and when the morals are in conflict with themselves (like conflicting loyalties for instance), loyalty to people who know me personally and whom I can have a direct effect on in life takes priority.

Also I don't believe obedience to authority is always a moral obligation, but I will willingly do so if the justification for what the authority commands makes sense to me and is compatible with my moral principles.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 03:08:51 No.14141

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>>14139
Why does each have a different maximum of 12 and 20? That already ruins the data by not being consistent. Why isn't there a reference as to where this data was taken from? Why is there no year? Who made this chart? Why is there an unnecessary blue ring outside of the numbers? What does the width wave of heat in it's respective category of number represent in each?

Pretty misleading if you ask me.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 03:21:40 No.14142

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>>14140
>The difference between me and a particularly jingoistic conservative is that I consider certain morals more important than personal loyalties.
I've met a lot of conservatives that place personal loyalties above larger causes. I've met a lot of conservatives that place larger causes above loyalty. At the end both are types of people are loyal, they're just towards two different values.
>conservatives share all the same moral principles as someone like me but prioritizes them differently in moral conundrums.
I think a lot of people get too hung up on words like Conservative or liberal. I think at the end of the day that there is a breaking point for any human being and it's all contextual. For example with your killing innocent people hypothetical. I would absolutely kill an innocent person if say, it meant my own life or a loved one's at risk. That's just the natural laws of self preservation that mother nature has engrained in us as people.
>Also I don't believe obedience to authority is always a moral obligation
Yeah! Fuck the law! No, but seriously it depends on the authority and what they're mandating. There's a lot of laws out there that are complete horseshit and get abuse by people in positions of power. However, there are a lot of laws in place to prevent crime and punish those who wrong others.

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 04:51:05 No.14143

>>14139
Yep, that was the one. Though I still haven't had luck finding the study itself.
Had some interesting stuff within.

> it doesn't describe what they care about more; it describes the highest thing they care about.
It's more the allocation of a 'moral budget' so to speak.
But, yeah, the highest thing they care about aspect is part of what I mean.

>>14136
>However, from what I've personally seen the far-right can absolutely take on a herd mentality
Sure? I don't really disagree with that, though I think it's more to do with idiots being idiots, and not really something worth major consideration.

> rather someone who is upset and didn't quite know how to express their feelings without insult.
I'm uninclined to believe that, because if that was actually the case, it'd be remarkably simple to say "I don't actually mean that" once it had gotten pushback.

I would agree it's an emotional reaction, but that hardly means it's not serious.

>Conflict can be healthy. Conflict can lead to discussion and discussion can lead to understanding
Sure.
Or it can lead to someone hiding in a garage waiting for you to walk by, and then shooting you in ambush, ala the murder of Danielson.

Conflict is certainly something I'm well aware has positives;
But let's not act as though all conflicts are equal, or that they are without consequences.

> but she doesn't seem like the type to actually take action
Action taken isn't necessary.
The unchallenged espousing of ideas as these leads others to do so, even if they won't.

Ideological zealotry doesn't crop up from nothing.
These antifa types wouldn't crop up if it weren't for decades of support for such behaviors, from those who, like you allude to Andrea being, lack the moral conviction to do so themselves.

>It is an impersonal political attitude...
...That I have taken issue with because of its demonizing and dehumanizing rhetoric, as stated.

Not whatever fanciful fare you wish to interject.
Please trust when I say why I'm doing something, that is, in fact, why I am doing so.

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 04:53:05 No.14144

>>14140
Is that the presumption, though?
My interpretation was that while it's not "always" at odds, it may well be, and often is, for that matter.
Whether one faces the fact or not, keeping finances necessary to sustain your lifestyle over donating it all to starving kids in Africa certainly is placing your own wellbeing as a higher priority.

Does that mean you can never donate to starving kids in Africa?
Certainly not.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 06:02:15 No.14145

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>>14143
>I'm uninclined to believe that, because if that was actually the case, it'd be remarkably simple to say "I don't actually mean that" once it had gotten pushback.
You can never know what's going on the inside of someone's head. I don't really believe it is a serious desire, but you're free to disagree with me. To be honest, I also don't really see the big deal if it is.
>But let's not act as though all conflicts are equal, or that they are without consequences.
They aren't. You're acting like you were directly given a threat. I highly doubt you're going to be shot over some shit flinging on /townhall/.
>These antifa types wouldn't crop up if it weren't for decades of support for such behaviors, from those who, like you allude to Andrea being, lack the moral conviction to do so themselves.
I'm not supporting either of your behaviors.
>Ideological zealotry doesn't crop up from nothing.
I beg to differ. A concept will grow regardless of the backlash of others. Sometimes they take it as a sign to become a martyr for their cause. When people are that desperate to believe in whatever conviction they hold and can't handle being challenged, they will retreat to some echo chamber. There's a difference between challenging someone for their beliefs, and well, whatever devolved between you two; which is fine. It seems there is a history between the two of you. Sometimes people need to fight and argue. All I was pointing out is that you haven't exactly been all that much of a saint in this thread either.

But let's entertain that idea for a moment about moderating behaviors. Regardless of your history, you're the one who threw the first stone in this thread that I saw. Sure, Andrea was being a bit of a passive aggressive cunt, but you were the first to draw your sword.

As for a lack of moral conviction, I already mentioned that I do not know Andrea. They could be a mass murderer with a collection hideously mutilated, pus-engorged and maggot infested faces of the slain. That's the thing, I don't know. What I do know is that people talk a lot of shit online and you seem to be taking it very personally; which I find hypocritical and ironic because so was she. Andrea might be treating others unfairly, sure. I can tell because you're turning it into a "If you don't agree with me, then you're defending her!" sort of ultimatum. I'm not on either of your sides. I'm on my own side.

It ain't that deep. If I were you, I would take everything on the internet with a grain of salt unless it is a personal threat. (And even then, I've had a lot of death threats in my day. I'm still here.)

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 06:11:58 No.14146

>>14145
You seem to still be following a tangent I've already tried to clarify multiple times, to I feel it's largely useless to continue this.
I can tell you a million times it's not some "personal threat" I take issue with, and you'll respond a million times as though it is, ignoring what I've writ.
No further continuation of me saying "that's not the issue" and you blithely ignoring it is going to net a different result here.

You talk of hypocrisy, when that was literally what caused me to bring up the lot; Andrea wanted to whine about 'hatemongering' while espousing some of the most hateful rhetoric I've seen around here.
But, I suppose you'll just ignore that, too, and insist I'm taking things 'personally'...

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 06:25:01 No.14147

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>>14146
You probably shouldn't act like it is then. That is counterintuitive.
>its demonizing and dehumanizing rhetoric and hypocrisy
That's the issue you have with right? I don't really seeing how wishing someone is dead is a form of demonizing and dehumanizing. That's just wishing they were dead. What's hypocritical is you demonizing the person demonizing you by saying that they probably support horrific experiments and would step in line with the nazis. (And then weirdly challenge them to a fist fight? That was odd.) Even if it's justified, it's still hypocritical.
>Andrea wanted to whine about 'hatemongering' while espousing some of the most hateful rhetoric I've seen around here.
I'm not AI. I can't scan the entirety of Ponyville in a moments notice.
Post some examples, because I just see two hypocrites arguing.

I only mentioned the personal threat thing once. I said that you were taking their words personal. And now you're going to return in response probably with something along the lines of "It doesn't matter if it was personal! It's the principle of it!" I just don't really see any of it as that deep. To the point of cutting each other over and over again and making the place feel like /pol/ lite.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 07:00:54 No.14148

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Anyway, yeah you two definitely need to kiss and make up. It seems you both think you are incapable of throwing the first punch which is funny because most people I've seen who say confidentially say that they are strictly reactionary (Both of you) typically throw blows even if you don't realize it. I suggest you both take a page in empathy and patience for one another. Let the past go. Introduce yourselves again. Grab a cup of coffee. Make it a dinner date.

>>13845
>The fact this thread immediately fell into conspiracy theory and political tribalism
>Is it really that fucking hard to shift perspective or are you just a spineless coward?
I'm sorry, I just noticed this part, and it made me giggle. Not to stir up the pot, but that is kind of funny.
Oh ho ho. This is what I get for skimming half a month's worth of arguing in like 30 minutes. You do realize how silly that sounds right? What a funny little detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyrABbXcrtM

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 07:11:12 No.14149

>>14147
See >>13878
>"Well wherever they are, death would be too merciful for them as far as I am concerned."

It's not just wishing someone dead. Though I'd still call that shit scummy.
They've made a general blanket umbrella of those who deserve a fate worse than death, irrespective of who they are, their individual circumstances or concerns.

>>14148
>This is what I get for skimming half a month's worth of arguing in like 30 minutes.
Which raises the question of why you felt it prudent to inject yourself into the matter with a host of presuppositions...

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 07:22:09 No.14150

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>>14149
>Which raises the question of why you felt it prudent to inject yourself into the matter with a host of presuppositions...
>My source is that I made it the fuck up!
Because that doesn't change the fact that you're both being complete asshats about shit that doesn't really matter. I'm also allowed to interject whatever the fuck I want. It's my opinion and I'm gonna say it because I feel like it.

Yeah so what? They wished someone was dead. That makes them an asshole at that moment. See below.

>That's the issue you have with right? I don't really seeing how wishing someone is dead is a form of demonizing and dehumanizing. That's just wishing they were dead. What's hypocritical is you demonizing the person demonizing you by saying that they probably support horrific experiments and would step in line with the nazis. (And then weirdly challenge them to a fist fight? That was odd.) Even if it's justified, it's still hypocritical.
>Andrea was being a bit of a passive aggressive cunt, but you were the first to draw your sword.
That second part is definitely what I perceived. Right here was the first real stone. >>13873 Not to mention you telling people to fuck off and other shit.

The problem is you are two people who believe that their shit doesn't stink. Well it does. Just like mine. Just like everyone else on this planet. People really need to learn some humility in their lives. Yes, I get it. She wasn't being understanding about the other side. Justifying our action as "W-Well it wasn't as bad as w-what they did!!" Is pretty scummy as well and it's hiding behind the other person rather than owning up you might have said some crazy shit too. It's not like Andrea is reaching through the computer screen and strangling you. You could have handled it better just as she could have.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 07:33:23 No.14151

>>14150
>They wished someone was dead.
>"My source is that I made it the fuck up!"
Oh the irony...
I literally spell this shit out for you, and you're still as blind as a bat, whilst deigning to toss judgement with so throughly poor an understanding.

>W-Well it wasn't as bad as w-what they did!!
Except that's not what's being said.
But again you are evidently remarkably illiterate, or at least lack the patience to read more than five words before you reply, so I suppose I can understand why you'd make such a daft presumption.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 07:59:08 No.14152

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>>14151

>Except that's not what's being said.
>It's not just wishing someone dead. Though I'd still call that shit scummy.
>Except that's not what's being said.
lol. Now that really is ironic. It's like you read 1/4th of my post and decided to say "You can't read."

>I literally spell this shit out for you, and you're still as blind as a bat, whilst deigning to toss judgement with so throughly poor an understanding.
So because I'm not blindly agreeing with you, I am blind as a bat? Because I made my point rather clear as well. I even pointed out the post that I didn't really think was necessary. I think you two are both being childish, and I find it hypocritical for either of you to criticize one another about being hostile to those who do not "Blindly follow you." Because I didn't immediately jump to your aid, I am the enemy and a illiterate, uneducated, and attention deficit ridden individual. It's fine if you think that way of me, I'm used to that. It doesn't hurt me.
https://youtu.be/uI1r-FeIK1A?feature=shared&t=34

I think I understand the type of person who is speaking. You are lonely and used to conflict, at least when it comes to these types of places. Perhaps in the real world as well. You're used to people ganging up on you and making you feel isolated and exiled, like an outcast. You have a strong sense of principals that are unwavering and unbending towards any exception save for the most dire, and even then only if it isn't at you expense. It's the kind of resolve that is only matched by the intense emotional feelings of adrenaline bursting with release from our synapses while drifting around a corner at 200mph.

Regardless of what you might think of me, I stick by what I said to you in the beginning of this thread. >I've read your posts and I can see where you're coming from as well. The same applies to you. I respect and value your opinion. I just think you are better than lowering yourself to mudflinging. I think both of you are.

Graceful Ferret 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:07:44 No.14153

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>>14142
>I've met a lot of conservatives that place personal loyalties above larger causes. I've met a lot of conservatives that place larger causes above loyalty.

It's why I was using the descriptor "jingoistic".

>>14142
>I think a lot of people get too hung up on words like Conservative or liberal. I think at the end of the day that there is a breaking point for any human being and it's all contextual.

True, but the labels are also self concious, voluntary identities in our culture. So in that context, I was referencing the terms as broad alliances of people with similar political sentiments or goals. I'm perfectly well aware there are a lot of nuanced positions and nuanced people within either camp. And I am well aware I am speaking in generalities. I am also a realist about human psychology and understand that a lot more factors than reason determines a person's political allegiances to those camps and I don't think anyone is an exception to that, and I don't pretend like I am either. That being said, having once been a conservative myself, I am quite familiar with the emotional appeal of conservatism in the broad sense of being about preservation or restoration of status quos. I have a lot of experience with a lot of conservative people having them in my family and oldest friends and I am very familiar with what they value, which greatly informs my perspective on conservatives. That and my understanding of cognitive psychology.

>>14148
>>The fact this thread immediately fell into conspiracy theory and political tribalism
>>Is it really that fucking hard to shift perspective or are you just a spineless coward?
>I'm sorry, I just noticed this part, and it made me giggle. Not to stir up the pot, but that is kind of funny.

I was actually referencing another thread there. That and a pattern across /townhall/.

Either way, this entire thing is rooted in me expressing my feelings about a topic that's been a source of deep trauma for me to people here expressing attitudes about it that profoundly disgust me. There's nothing more to it than that

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:12:18 No.14154

>>14152
>Now that really is ironic.
I genuinely can't tell if you're trolling here.
Do you know what greentext is used for?
Surely you do. You're using it here.
Did it somehow escape your perception that the greentext directly before that statement was what I had taken issue as something that was never said nor suggested?

The quote you've jammed in the middle there has absolutely nothing to do with anything near as I can tell.
It's striking me as another incredibly painful example of your exceptionally lackluster reading comprehensible that verges on the absurd.

>So because I'm not blindly agreeing with you, I am blind as a bat?
No; Because you keep explicitly are ignoring what I'm saying.
I've said it numerous times and you keep repeating the same idiotic line about Andrea "wishing someone dead".
I really have no idea how to make it more clear.

I'm not gonna bother responding to the rest here because fundamentally there seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what I'm saying, and frankly, it's starting to get on my nerves.

I can't exactly help a conversation where you make up half of what occurred without any reference to reality

Once again the issue is not that Andrea ever wished anybody dead.
I even provided the direct quotation from Andrea about this matter.
I clarified it numerous times.

I'm not saying you are a stupid illiterate dumbass because I disagree with you, I am saying it because you keep repeating something that is categorically and objectively not at issue no matter how many times I tell you otherwise and explicitly. You just ignore it every single time I bring it up.

Though to be fair I will grant I am probably giving you way more benefit of the doubt than I should be considering that again it has been repeated at this point.
Rather more likely you're just trying to troll at this stage.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:37:16 No.14155

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>>14153
I'd say that those are more so conscious decisions that line up to personal choices and ideologies. Conservative and liberal are convenient terms when measuring up and describing our political affiliations to not only ourselves, but others.
>understanding of cognitive psychology
If that is your field of expertise, then you understand why people get upset when you vent about their deaths. Tact. Even if you explain that your words were spoken in hyperbole, some people are going to get upset. They'll use your words against you even when you didn't mean them. The sheer thought of anger towards others can cause that. I would know; I'm a bit of an expert at getting under people's skin. I find it a little strange that the other anon speaks about their resolve in a positive light; how they are unwavering in their opinions and yet faults you for your own. Though, I have something to say:

I'm sorry you had to deal with so much death during covid. I've had to deal with a lot of death prior to covid; so much that death almost doesn't even phase me anymore; or maybe that's a lie I tell myself at night to help with sleep. I can sympathize. However, the other anon does raise a point. Death is a powerful thing to speak of; and a lack of understand is a powerful thing as well. When the two come together it creates a well of negativity that does neither yourself nor anyone around you any good. Not that negativity is always a bad thing. It is a part of life. Just as death is a part of life. Without death there can be no life, and with life there would be no death. It sounds as though you are still grieving. I am still grieving. I could jump into this rabbit whole with you, if you wish. If you are willing to listen to my perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_Vu9PEKH4

>>14154
No, I haven't been ignoring anything or making anything up. You simply have been perceiving it that way. The greentext you're referring to was the one about things not being as bad as the other party, right? You didn't use those exact words that I green texted. You're correct about that. But you don't have to use direct words to send a message. Not always at least.

>I'm not gonna bother responding to the rest here because fundamentally there seems to be a massive disconnect between you and what I'm saying, and frankly, it's starting to get on my nerves.
I think that might be a good idea. Take a break and cool off. It's gonna be alright.

>The direct quotation
>>>"Well wherever they are, death would be too merciful for them as far as I am concerned."
No, I understood that. You don't like that. You don't like that they were showing intolerance for people who wouldn't wear a mask despite there may be some sort of circumstances that are not foreseen. I have an opinion on that as well. (Which I'll reserve for now.) I also think it is childish to be upset about. I thought I made that clear as well, Energetic Narwhal.

>troll
>stage
Well that is hurtful.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:41:31 No.14156

>>14155
It rings hollow when you say you 'understood' that, when you've neglected to even acknowledge it the multiple times prior it was mentioned.

> You didn't use those exact words that I green texted. You're correct about that.
That's not the point, nor the issue taken.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:43:27 No.14157

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>>14156
I thought it was pretty clear.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:49:48 No.14158

>>14157
As did I, yet you repeatedly acted as though the issue was Andre wishing 'someone dead', and repeated attempts to point out that issue were met with a compete lack of engagement.

You can certainly see why I'd be frustrated when it seems you'd ignored such a fundamental starting point.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 08:56:20 No.14159

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>>14158
Uhhh...
>>14150
>Yes, I get it. She wasn't being understanding about the other side.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 09:00:18 No.14160

>>14159
>"Yeah so what? They wished someone was dead. That makes them an asshole at that moment. See below."
Yeah, exactly the type of thing I was talking about. I didn't figure it was worth linking, but I guess you found a good example of what I mean.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 09:04:29 No.14161

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>>14160
Oh no! I've been checkmated! Oh wait..
>(You): You didn't understand what I was angry about!
>Posts a sentence that directly talks about what you were angry about
>Y-Yeah, but the bottom! A-And you brought it back to the phrase!
I stand by what I said. You two both have displayed a lack of either ability or willingness to hear out what the other party might be thinking or experiencing; hence why I said you two think your shit doesn't stink, and hence why I have said that both of you have displayed hypocritical behaviors towards one another. I also thought it was implied that what I said included the fact she wasn't being understanding. I mean I say that after all. I literally acknowledged that you were upset about her lack of empathy or sympathy towards others due to her anger with a simple sentence. You didn't seem to address it. Did you want me to type out an entire paragraph about that as well?

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 09:24:13 No.14163

>>14161
>>Posts a sentence that directly talks about what you were angry about
Andrea didn't wish someone was dead.
I can't be angry about something that didn't happen.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 09:31:12 No.14165

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>>14163
Death, a fate worse than death; "Death being too merciful." You know what what I mean.
You're just being a cranky, spiteful, vindictive little bitch because you need a nap or a sandwich or something. Take a break to cool off and take my advice: it ain't that deep. Or ignore that, yell at me, and call me stupid some more. I don't really care that much. It doesn't hurt me.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 09:49:10 No.14166

>>14165
Right, right. I'm spiteful, cranky, vindictive, a bitch, all because I dared take issue with you jumping in to a matter you didn't even bother to read...

Guess it's on me for feeding the obvious troll.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 10:17:40 No.14167

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>>14166
No. You're a spiteful, cranky, vindictive bitch, because you are acting like a spiteful, cranky, vindictive bitch.
>jumping in to a matter you didn't even bother to read...
No, I read it. I even addressed your concerns about the unfairness Andrea was having over people not wearing masks. You just don't like that eventually instead of saying "a fate worse than death" I switch to death, and then used it as a place to refer to your anger about it. Instead of typing out each time "You are mad because she is being inconsiderate of the other side." I shortened it all to "Andrea wished they died"

Speaking of which, the post in question doesn't really give any contextual clues as to what they were really saying. That in of itself is rather suspicious.. So you took a screenshot to have a single receipt without the any other bits of context?
>Boop
W-What's that? Oh wow.. Looks like the whole blanket umbrella they were talking about was for people who were threatening medical staff. And the rest .. was simply expressing frustrations?

Oopsie doopsie, Narwhal made a poopsie!

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 10:18:10 No.14168

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>>14166
Also, who the fuck immediately begins to tell someone who lost their mom to covid about how masks don't work and vaccines were BS and shit while they are clearly in an emotional state? Then to top it off you immediately follow up by trying to dunk on them. That's some pretty fucked up shit. It actually pretty painful how non-literal and hyperbolic that original post was. It's grief. People say stupid shit while they are grieving. Even if what you were saying was true, you're a fucking asshole for saying all of that and you should actually apologize, but whatever.

I also think that the people who said that you deserved to get covid and die were being assholes and should apologize to you. And for what it's worth: I don't think you're a bad person. I hope that you and your family are doing well.

I think I'm done for the night.

Energetic Narwhal 08/05/24 (Mon) 18:42:49 No.14170

>>14167
>I switch to death, and then used it as a place to refer to your anger about it. Instead of typing out each time "You are mad because she is being inconsiderate of the other side."
Which would also be untrue, but even leaving that aside, it isn't what you'd done anyway.

You changed "a fate worse than death" to just death, and a vague group to a singular "someone".

>they were talking about was for people who were threatening medical staff.
Even if we argue from that context, no, the final categorization went to those who're calling for the arrests and incarceration of those in the medical profession who had repeatedly lied to the American people, as well as have direct ties to the lab that resulted in the whole pandemic, and for that matter had chosen to fund it through state means despite that type of research being explicitly inelligable...

But good job, I suppose; it at least makes Andrea look worse.

>>14168
Covid has been a long time, and besides that, to be blunt, I don't give a fuck how emotional you are that's no fucking excuse.

>I think I'm done for the night.
Probably for the best
Either through exhaustion or some other effect, you clearly are struggling.

Graceful Ferret 08/05/24 (Mon) 19:28:51 No.14171

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>>14155
>I'd say that those are more so conscious decisions that line up to personal choices and ideologies. Conservative and liberal are convenient terms when measuring up and describing our political affiliations to not only ourselves, but others.

I agree. I was just clarifying context. I consider myself moderately progressive but still conservative about a number of other things, but I generally choose to ally with liberals and progressives at this point in my life and choose that label even if I'm not entirely a progressive and recognize that even if I disagree over the details of philosophy/ideology and policy with many of them, that we ally because we share similar progressive sentiments and ideals. I acknowledge that it's 100% true of conservatives as well in regards to their reasons, given I used to be conservative.

>If that is your field of expertise, then you understand why people get upset when you vent about their deaths. Tact. Even if you explain that your words were spoken in hyperbole, some people are going to get upset.

I know, I don't care at this point, in the context of everything in the past 8 years. I want to upset them at this point. I want to upset people who's wounded egos take precedent over the well-being of people they can directly effect by actions or inactions, regardless of how very very minor sacrifices that they throw intellectual discipline in the trash and embrace whatever narrative absolve them of being selfish shitheads. I don't care about upsetting assholes and being an asshole in kind.

>They'll use your words against you even when you didn't mean them. The sheer thought of anger towards others can cause that.

And I fully expect them to. But as I see it right now, given the larger context, people like that have already been using things I, and people I generally agree with, against me even when there is no intent to anger anyone. So fuck it, let hypocrites stew in anger when they get the same thrown back in their face.

> would know; I'm a bit of an expert at getting under people's skin. I find it a little strange that the other anon speaks about their resolve in a positive light; how they are unwavering in their opinions and yet faults you for your own.

Yeah, that hypocrisy predates anything I've said or done in just these two threads. Hence why I don't give a shit anymore.

>m sorry you had to deal with so much death during covid. I've had to deal with a lot of death prior to covid; so much that death almost doesn't even phase me anymore; or maybe that's a lie I tell myself at night to help with sleep

I would imagine given you used to be in the Navy and worked as a medical doctor. I don't think I would have the strength to deal with that, I've dealt with deaths in my family for years before covid, I'm middle aged, and personally well acquainted with how death comes for everyone eventually with the passing of time. My dad died long before covid, and over the past decade before covid, I'm also aware of how emotional detachment/dissociation is a coping mechanism for the trauma of it all.

>I can sympathize. However, the other anon does raise a point. Death is a powerful thing to speak of; and a lack of understand is a powerful thing as well. When the two come together it creates a well of negativity that does neither yourself nor anyone around you any good.

And as expressed earlier I was wishing pain on people with a certain disgustingly selfish attitude, enough they would wish for death. I don't care if anyone with that attitude is enraged by that. Thin skinned narcissism annd the selfishness of a narcissistic culture has been fucking up my life for decades. And I know that it doesn't do me or anyone any good, but from my perspective, we were already past that point before I expressed what I expressed in these two threads.

>Not that negativity is always a bad thing. It is a part of life. Just as death is a part of life. Without death there can be no life, and with life there would be no death. It sounds as though you are still grieving.

There are a lot of things I am grieving, not just those people who've passed away. A lot of which are ultimately rooted in the hypocritical selfishness of the community I grew up in. There's a lot more experience that makes me feel the way I feel about that attitude. All that is what is so disgustingly offensive about all this straw grasping about these narratives about the pandemic that so blatantly serve to absolve that selfishness and escape having to have humility.

Delightful Caterpillar 08/05/24 (Mon) 19:35:36 No.14172

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>>14170
It never ceases to to astound me how someone can be proven wrong at almost every turn and still try to turn around and scream "N-No you!"

It's like I'm talking to an angry little goblin.
>You changed "a fate worse than death" to just death, and a vague group to a singular "someone".
It was actually a pretty specific group: people who threaten medical staff. So potato patato. You say I'm struggling but you're reaching so far I can practically hear bones creaking under pressure.

I'll even grant that fire vs fire isn't all that mature in Andrea's case. What they said wasn't entirely justifiable, but it is understandable. You lack sympathy and have a lot of bullied boy energy. I'm more than certain you would show more tolerance to someone if it were someone lashing out that were a loved one. Not that Andrea is a loved one, I don't even know her.

No, the real issue is that people aren't agreeing with you, so you get angry. You pretend that you're some mirror that reflects what others put onto you, but in reality you are more like a projector placing your own projections onto other people.

>covid has been around a long time and blah blah blah
Covid has been around since January of 2020 with signs of possible outbreak in late 2019. That's 4 years ago. That's pretty recent.
>Covid has been a long time, and besides that, to be blunt, I don't give a fuck how emotional you are that's no fucking excuse.
I'd say it's contextual. Some harmless words and umbrellas on the internet is perfectly fine and actually pretty excusable. It's forgivable. Those can be worked and smoothed out with a gentle but firm hand. Not some ogrish beating over the head. You're the only one who seems to actually be offended and take it all personal, despite it apparently that not being the issue.

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 20:15:31 No.14173

>>14172
> So potato patato
I suppose I shouldn't be shocked given your inability to read thus far;
Let me try to make it real simple for you. Small words and all.

"There have been tomatos, AND there have been groups of corn in the field."
Does this mean the field only contains tomatos?
No!
It has corn, too!

>No, the real issue is that people aren't agreeing with you, so you get angry
Suuure pal.
I'm sure that's why I've been trying to convince you of my position, right?

Oh wait. No. All I've done is point out your lack of understanding of what's even going on.

If agreement was my goal, I wouldn't be sat here explaining for the 20th time how your framing of events didn't occur.

>. That's 4 years ago. That's pretty recent.
It's quite literally been years.
No, it is not "pretty recent".

>Some harmless words and umbrellas on the internet is perfectly fine and actually pretty excusable.
Sure. And to you, evidently wishing a fate worse than death on a wide swath of people, including loved ones, is acceptable.

To me, it isn't.

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 20:23:26 No.14174

>>14171
> I don't care if anyone with that attitude is enraged by that. Thin skinned narcissism annd the selfishness of a narcissistic culture has been fucking up my life for decades
A great example, by the way, that makes it damn clear, contrary to Nonny's narrative here, this is absolutely something Andrea not only stands by but still firmly believes.

It's not something she "didn't mean".
Nor is it wrong for me to use their words against them, when again, they clearly stand by it.
They've directly said that they don't care, and gone on to condemn those who take issue.

So this pretend innocence crap is exactly that: Crap.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 21:00:48 No.14176

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>>14171
(I apologize in advance if it seems like I am analyzing you or playing internet therapist. I actually hate that. I'm giving my sincere opinions and advice.)

I don't really label myself as a conservative or a liberal. I agree and disagree with points on both sides of the spectrum, but if I had to try and define myself; I'd say I'm more of a centralist with right leaning ideals and some left leaning ideals.
>I know, I don't care at this point, in the context of everything in the past 8 years. I want to upset them at this point.
I can understand the sentiment. I know what it's like to give into hatred and vindictive bitterness, but I can also promise you that it's going to take from you more than it will sooth. It's like having a cast over a broken bone. Sure, it protects you; but underneath that cast there is a swollen limb that pumps with pain to the touch.
You have to remember that everyone's story is both special -- but paradoxically, we are not special. Everyone goes through pain on an individual level. You say you want people to be upset, but I don't think that's actually going to sooth your soul. Perhaps for a little, but I think the war is mostly an internal struggle. I don't mean to sound so insensitive, but their anger or suffering is not going to bring your mother back, and it's not actually going to make you feel better about anything. I know. I have been there. "Anger is a killing thing: it kills the man who angers, for each rage leaves him less than he had been before - it takes something from him."
>Yeah, that hypocrisy predates anything I've said or done in just these two threads. Hence why I don't give a shit anymore.
I think that you do care, quite a bit actually. The way you speak about hypocrisy is quite telling.
>I would imagine given you used to be in the Navy and worked as a medical doctor
I wasn't technically a doctor. The actual physicians were all officers if not civilian physicians and specialists. Even the I.D.C (Independent corpsman) wasn't technically a doctor from what I understood. I was more of a mix between a nurse, an EMT, a vaccination expert, and STD expert, water purification, phlebotomist, food inspector, disease control, ect, ect, and mostly specialized in preventative medicine. They did 'train' us about field medicine. (Performing medicine while under fire.) I did that for like a year. That was fun.
>I'm also aware of how emotional detachment/dissociation is a coping mechanism for the trauma of it all
It's natural.
>And as expressed earlier I was wishing pain on people with a certain disgustingly selfish attitude, enough they would wish for death. I don't care if anyone with that attitude is enraged by that. Thin skinned narcissism annd the selfishness of a narcissistic culture has been fucking up my life for decades. And I know that it doesn't do me or anyone any good, but from my perspective, we were already past that point before I expressed what I expressed in these two threads.
Pain is a powerful and intimate thing as well. Some would argue that the act of inflicting tremendous pain is worse than the act of taking a life. Listening to you speak, I don't think you actually mean any of it really. If I had to take a guess, I feel as though you simply wish for people to leave you alone and for pain to end.

Allow me to clarify: there's nothing wrong with anger. Anger is a part of us as human beings; just as happiness, sadness, pride, shame, fear, and envy. They are all nature and should not be shunned, rather embraced. Once you can embrace these feelings you can come to a level of acceptance and resolution within yourself.

Gifted Cougar 08/05/24 (Mon) 21:27:52 No.14177

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>>14173
I feel like you're either pretending to be stupid or simply just petty.
>"There have been tomatos, AND there have been groups of corn in the field." Does this mean the field only contains tomatos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzbs9w_mbZA
>No! It has corn, too!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UCWhbr22Xic
>All I've done is point out your lack of understanding of what's even going on.
I called you a hypocrite and didn't agree with your position, and you got angry. Because you're a bitter hypocrite.
>It's quite literally been years.
Context is everything. The birthing of human beings in comparison to the entire history of the Earth is less than the blink of an eye.
>Sure. And to you, evidently wishing a fate worse than death on a wide swath of people, including loved ones, is acceptable.
You must take yoga, because you sure do a lot of reaching. I said it was forgivable and excusable; but I think a better word would have been "It's understandable." I never one tried to say it was acceptable, but it is something that can be taken in stride. Strength comes not just from being able to destroy your enemies, but to be able to take a hit and continue on. And sometimes, the most effective way of 'destroying' your enemy, is to befriend them. I'm able to take hits. You clearly are so sensitive and babby that you can't even handle it when someone isn't even directly talk about you.

Life isn't black and white, anon. You should stop treating it as such.

Tender Griffon 08/05/24 (Mon) 21:46:04 No.14179

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>>14177
I've tried my best, but to no avail.
You're either drunk, or trolling. Knowing you, probably both.

No point continuing this at all when you refuse to engage with even the most basic explanations beyond petty dismissals and shoddier quips.

Agreeable Turtle 08/05/24 (Mon) 21:51:49 No.14180

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>>14179
>Disagree
>Get insulted
>Continue to disagree
>Noooo! Y-You're just a drunk t-troll.

No, I've engaged with every one of your 'explanations'. You're just showing the classic signs of someone who is upset because the other won't agree with them. I've explained that I can understand why you'd be upset, sympathized, and that wasn't good enough. I'm sorry that I can't perspective shift for you.

Because people like you can't handle an opposition of any what so ever. It's funny because for as much as you are complaining about Andrea's behavior, you are acting in a very similar and stubborn manner. That's been my consistent point this entire time.

Tender Griffon 08/06/24 (Tue) 01:33:41 No.14187

>>14180
>engaged
>two meme links
k

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 01:50:27 No.14188

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>>14187
Are you a farmer? Because once again, you masterfully cherry pick.

Graceful Ferret 08/06/24 (Tue) 02:07:53 No.14189

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>>14176
>I don't mean to sound so insensitive, but their anger or suffering is not going to bring your mother back, and it's not actually going to make you feel better about anything. I know. I have been there. "Anger is a killing thing: it kills the man who angers, for each rage leaves him less than he had been before - it takes something from him."

Believe me I'm well aware of that. My dad defined himself off his anger and vindictiveness, and I troed not to be like that. But it seems I can't avoid it anymore.

Also, it's not just anger about my mother's passing, or the fact I nearly lost 3 other family members. It's also a 30 years of dealing with such a common attitude back home in Texas where they live and I used to. It's also the fact that, in order to stave off homelessness, I may be moving back there to live with my sister after escaping it all 12 years ago, and sacrificing a lot of what good things I have here, like the relative safety of a place where transphobes don't control the state government. Despite being born and raised there, I never felt welcome there, precisely because of those attitudes and the culture there, which was at the root of a lot of that ostracism. Like I can never escape it. I never had a place that felt like 'home' to me because of it all and I may have to go back to that again.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 02:58:07 No.14190

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>>14189
>Believe me I'm well aware of that. My dad defined himself off his anger and vindictiveness, and I troed not to be like that. But it seems I can't avoid it anymore.
Sometimes it can certainly seem that way, but we are always given a choice when it comes to our anger. Anger isn't always a bad thing. To be outraged can often remind us of our values and inner most true feelings. All emotions are like that when felt in sincerity. We can lie to ourselves, but deep down inside each one of us knows what truly makes us happy, sad, angry, or afraid.
>It's also a 30 years of dealing with such a common attitude back home in Texas where they live and I used to.
Unfortunately, you can't change everyone around you. Even if you were to seethe, and squirm, and struggle, and wirth against everyone around you. I will give you a touch of hope; 12 years is a long, long time. I've seen places changes drastically after as little as 2. Sometimes for the best and sometimes for the worst. Maybe people are more accepting. I can tell you that in my own state, people have gotten a lot more accepting in the last 12 years towards transgendered folk, and I can guarantee you that my population of people are some of the most idiotic in the country. Texas, was it?

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 07:15:50 No.14193

>>14188
It's been the big focus for each of my replies the dozen or so we've gone back and forth.
But you don't care, of course.
Better to dig in your heels than admit a mistake, clearly.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 07:34:01 No.14194

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>>14193
I have to know what 'mistake' I made in order for me to admit anything. I also don't really know why you seem to think I'm just doubling down and digging my heels into the dirt. Is that common within your social circle? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you're seeing something that the other person can't? I'm not a mind reader. I don't really know what you want me to see at this point.
So far this entire 'back and forth' has been me disagreeing with you, you getting mad; and calling me illiterate, stupid, a drunk, and a stupid drunk troll.

You need to learn how to relax. It ins't that deep.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 07:38:54 No.14195

>>14194
You don't need to read minds.
I've said it a dozen times already.
All you need to do is read.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 07:48:45 No.14196

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>>14195
I don't know what you want. I've already engaged you on every point and I've been reading. My only guess is that you want me to read your mind.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 07:58:16 No.14197

>>14196
>
>>14187

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:00:36 No.14198

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>>14197
I don't get it.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:07:29 No.14199

>>14198
You say you've engaged with every point.
I'm pointing out how you didn't.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:12:11 No.14200

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>>14199
I did. You gave me a meme analogy about corn and tomatoes, so I gave you meme videos about tomatoes and corn.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:13:43 No.14201

>>14200
Do you know what an analogy is?

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:16:47 No.14202

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>>14201
Does it have to do with anal?

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:17:00 No.14203

While both of these things are wrong...

>Extreme leftist, like a New Black Panther Party militant yelling outdoors "Someone ought to take out Trump with a AR-15! Show no mercy against the Nazi!"

>Modern conservative who came to have terminally online caused brain worms, like a Trump Reddit moderator "Someone ought to take out everybody at that local synoguage with a firebomb or something! Get rid of all of the wokies!"

The second person is in a clearly definable way being ethically worse because he or she is advocating for public violence against a whole category of innocent individuals to be subject to criminal violence rather than one single target being harmed.

This is not really any different than saying that it is a bad thing for a hospital ER to have one child in it with skin cancer while it becomes a worse thing for the same ER to have a dozen children with it suffering from lymphoma. That doesn't mean that we're idiots who arbitrary think that one negative thing is somehow not a problem because it involves victims who aren't us. This means that we operate from a categorical framework of ethics in which everybody has human dignity and nobody should suffer needlessly. Thus, we are rational. A dozen losses or so is worse than a single loss because we must avoid every loss if possible.

It's kind of impossible for me at this point to engage with conservatives since all of their ethical viewpoints are selective, so like lying, cheating, stealing, raping, murdering, and so on can be wrong or right or neutral depending on the victim (so it's, say, horrible for Trump to be almost killed while assassination attempts against George W. Bush and Barack Obama were like fine or whatever since they weren't making America great again) while as a centrist I have categorical ethics based on universal standards.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:24:47 No.14204

>>14202
Not quite.
It's an example used to explain something.
1 + 1 is better understood through an example of 'if you have an apple and take another', and this process is called an 'analogy'.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:29:45 No.14205

>>14203
>assassination attempts against George W. Bush and Barack Obama were like fine
I'm pretty sure those would also be viewed as bad, actually.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:35:24 No.14206

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>>14204
>1 + 1 is better understood through an example of 'if you have an apple and take another', and this process is called an 'analogy'.
That's actually just an example of math in use. It's different from an analogy. An analogy is comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. A better way to explain an analogy would be to use an actual analogy.

An analogy is like using a raft to cross a great river to get to the other side. The river is the problem, the analogy is a means of explanation, and the other side is understanding.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:39:31 No.14207

>>14206
That would certainly be a better form, but I'm trying to keep things as simple as I can here, and the math one is difficult to misunderstand.

Graceful Ferret 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:40:49 No.14208

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>>14190
>>14190
>Unfortunately, you can't change everyone around you. Even if you were to seethe, and squirm, and struggle, and wirth against everyone around you.

True, but emotions are like farts, the longer you hold them in, the more it hurts. As you saw in my original post in the other thread, I was expressing my feelings and venting those emotions frustrations, given that what happened in Texas with their responses to covid.

>To be outraged can often remind us of our values and inner most true feelings. All emotions are like that when felt in sincerity.

I try to be as sincere as I can be, even if it means being brutally candid.

>I will give you a touch of hope; 12 years is a long, long time. I've seen places changes drastically after as little as 2. Sometimes for the best and sometimes for the worst. Maybe people are more accepting. I can tell you that in my own state, people have gotten a lot more accepting in the last 12 years towards transgendered folk, and I can guarantee you that my population of people are some of the most idiotic in the country. Texas, was it?

Yeah Texas. I am well aware that Texas has plenty of accepting people, Texas in the second most populous state, that makes it a complicated place that's kind of like a microcosm of America as awhole. In fact, if I remember correctly I think the first transgender person to ever be elected mayor of a town anywhere was a small rural town in Texas and a former mayor of Houston (4th largest city in America) served while being open about being a lesbian.

However that acceptance largely represents a generationalal divide, most of it comes from millenials and gen z and non-white gen Xers. Older Texan tend to be a lot more intolerant of queer people ... and they hold a massively disproportionate amount of power in the form of political offices and money. Add to it the number of highly influential and wealthy evangelical factory churches full of greedy pharisees and televangelist that are part of that demographic and are often openly hostile to the existence of queer people like me. Basically the culture war Republicans, the ones who are most swayed by the doubling down on the transphobia that the right-wing outrage media ecosystem derives engagement from these days (thanks a lot, algorithm!)

I am literally terrified of the fact that many of the most powerful and wealthy people in my homestate consider me pedophile and thus a potential enemy of the state. I mean, a few months back, the current Texas State Attorney General, Ken Paxton, supeonaed a lot of healthcare providers all over the country (despite not having the legal power to do so) to provide names and medical records of any current or former residents of Texas who have received gender-affirming care ... that includes me! While no Healthcare provider was legally obligated to do so, the fact that it was even attempted scares the shit out of me.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:43:08 No.14210

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>>14207
I'm fairly certain I am a lot smarter than yourself, anon.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:43:47 No.14211

>>14205
Normal people would view those things as bad, while post-Trump-Era conservatives in broad terms wouldn't because of the selective ethics that I just mentioned. Same as how they don't care about LGBT nightclubs and community centers subject to public violence as well as don't care about synagogues subject to such things. But if a victim of a certain identity politics related group is involved, then they care.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:43:59 No.14212

>>14210
Alright. So?

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:44:39 No.14213

>>14211
I don't agree that conservatives would view the attempted assassination of a republican president like George Bush as a good thing.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:46:53 No.14214

>>14213
They would care a bit about Bush Jr. in that regard as a fellow Republican, though he wasn't and isn't an ideological conservative since he didn't and doesn't share in their core values (such as Bush possessing no hatred for LGBT people or for Jews).

While a liberal, a moderate, a libertarian, or whatever being murdered in public is something that most conservatives wouldn't care about much if at all because of their selective ethics.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:51:47 No.14215

The core point here is that a centrist would typically have generalized, categorical ethics that apply universally.

Conservatives have selective ethics based on identity politics.

If my literal next door neighbor is kidnapped, then I will be horrified and look to the local police. My neighbor's skin color, religion, ethnicity, gender identity, physical appearance, and so on won't matter. We are fellow members of our local community and fellow citizens both of our shared U.S. state and our country. In that moral sense, we are akin to extended family members.

In contrast, a conservative, say, father might not care if his own daughter happens to be kidnapped if she's a lesbian and therefore in his mind is somehow 'asking for it'. A next door neighbor might as well be an alien from Mars. I suppose. In terms of ethics.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 08:58:52 No.14216

>>14214
Given the consistent policy position of giving millions to Isreal, I don't think hatred for jews is a conservative staple either.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:00:01 No.14217

>>14215
I feel quite confident in saying a conservative father would care if his daughter was kidnapped, regardless of their orientation.

Graceful Ferret 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:02:44 No.14218

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>>14216

Christian Zionism is rooted in a religious belief that Isreal needs to exists before Jesus can return. It's not anything to do with religious tolerance, many wouldn't give two shits about them beyond that

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:06:45 No.14219

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>>14212
So, I really don't need your shade. It's really telling just how much you devolve in conversation when your ego is challenged. I'll have to remember not to tell people when they are being hypocritical.
>>14208
And just like farts, you're going to have to learn to expect people to get offended at the smell and either say something or make a sour face. I'm not saying it was wrong to express yourself. That would be silly. But you have to remember or at least be prepared to hear other people's opinions about your own once you say them. I remember one time I said that I was openly racist or something along those lines and people here, yourself included jumped on me about it.

Was I prepared for that? Absolutely. Did it bother me that people jumped on me? No. If anything, I wanted to hear what everyone had to say.
>I try to be as sincere as I can be, even if it means being brutally candid.
I don't want to repeat myself, but again, if you're going to be brutally candid; prepare for others to be brutally candid. What Narwhal said to you was harsh and cruel, but it is their right to say just as it is yours to express that you were upset about people attacking medical staff and ignoring covid protocols. My issue with them is that they don't realize that they are acting with just as much ignorance and passion as they would see you. That hypocrisy while screaming to the heavens about how deplorable hypocrisy is just rubs me the wrong way.

Not to mention the timing. You went through this emotional plea, and boom, they shit on you for it. I mean I get what they are saying, but still, show a little sympathy if you're going to give some sob story right after about losing friends and a job and what not. It makes it hard to really care about what someone says when right after that sensitive post is dropped they link your post and go "OOGA BOOGA TRIBALISM." Everyone lost something during covid whether it was something significant or less so. I mean, I'm gonna make this very clear: I don't entirely agree with either side. And I feel really bad that the two of you went through hardships. That sucks. That really sucks.
>I think the first transgender person to ever be elected mayor of a town
Hey, good on you texas. That's pretty neat.
>non-white gen Xers
>more accepting of anything LGBT related
Hey, I disagree. Black people are some of the most transphobic people on the planet and actually commit more crime against black transfolks disproportionate higher than any other race on the planet. That's a fact in America and globally. I think the stat I read before was that if you're a black transgendered living in a black community you are 800% more likely to be targeted by violent crime than any other race.. By other blacks.
>provide names and medical records of any current or former residents of Texas who have received gender-affirming care
If they did that a lot of people would get into a lot of trouble. HIPAA is not to be fucked with.

Anyway, if it means anything I don't care if you're trans or cisgendered. As long as you have a good heart, that's all that matters to me.

>I am literally terrified of the fact that many of the most powerful and wealthy people in my homestate consider me pedophile and thus a potential enemy of the state.
>Christians
>Republicans
I know that there are a lot of inconsiderate and transphobic people in those two demographics, and that politicians can be pretty shitty people at times. I don't want to handwave but let me give you a glimmer of hope. In this current year; in this current political and social climate; it is actually becoming more so and more looked down upon by the common people to talk bad about other groups. I've heard plenty of people trash talk trans people in the past, in the military, at school, and on the streets. But I've also heard more people defend transfolks this year alone, much more so the past 5 years than I have in my entire life.

A little food for thought. Keep your chin up.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:09:20 No.14220

>>14219
It's less a matter of shade and more that thus far, you've only meaningfully engaged in posts made as simple as could be.
It's why I'm limiting myself to a maximum of one paragraph.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:15:41 No.14222

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>>14220
I've engaged in everything you've thrown at me thus far. You just don't like the results. You don't like my perspectives, you don't like my answers, you don't like anything about me; and that's your problem. Which is fine. I'm not going to sit here and pretend my opinion is something it's not, so go ahead and keep making a sour face all you'd like. I'll still stick to my guns that I think you are a good person. You just believe you are 100% with all of your conviction because you are stubborn. Which is fine. I'm not here to change your opinion, simply point out my own.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:16:37 No.14223

>>14216
A conservative in 2024 would be a neo-Nazi in 2004. While a conservative in 2004 would be either a centrist or a liberal in 2024. And what neo-Nazis said in 2004 is standard on the mainstream right-wing in 2024. A liberal or moderate in 2024 would be a conservative in 2004. These are facts given the movements drastically melodramatic shift first in opposition to Obama and then even more so under Trump.

You can't take something that Mitt Romney and John McCain did back before many of today's internet influences were even born and pretend that it represents conservatives now.

Transgender people's human rights is a crying out loud level example here because in 2004 if a famous celebrity declared that they were of the actual opposite gender it would be considered a)shocking for them to do that and also b)something that they clearly had the right to do while c)trying to kidnap, rape, and/or kill that person would make the threatening one look crazy and evil (not the transgender person). In 2024? Yeah. Different story. I can speak from personal experience here as an LGBT person who was somewhat involved in conservative politics in the sane times.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:22:42 No.14224

>>14222
>
>>14197

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:23:32 No.14225

>>14223
Republicans in 2024 are still sending millions to Israel.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:23:42 No.14226

>>14217
You fail to understand modern conservatives under Trump, as compared to the gentlemen conservatives under the likes of, say, McCain, quite dramatically. I find your ignorance tiring.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:25:23 No.14227

>>14226
I'm quite confident Trump supporters would care if their daughter was kidnapped, regardless of their orientation.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:25:56 No.14228

>>14225
They're sending millions to a particular far right Israeli government while also a)demonizing Jews in America, b)demonizing worldwide Jews generally, and c)demonizing Jews in Israel who don't support their ideological faction.

That's not really an expression of racial and religious equality at all.

Suppose an African strongman were to proclaim: "I hate white people, but I love the few good ones". Would you view him as socially progressive and tolerant? Would you recommend white people live in his nation?

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:28:04 No.14229

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>>14224
>Nooooo you didn't say the thing I wanted you to say! That isn't engaging meeeeee.
kek

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:28:20 No.14230

>>14228
I don't exactly disagree that Israel is an ethnostate theocracy, but I hardly see how supporting such a place would coincide with antisemitism.

Unless you're trying to argue it's only 'some' jews, or that Israel doesn't count.
But that doesn't seem to track to me.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:28:46 No.14231

>>14229
Posting meme videos isn't engaging.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:30:26 No.14232

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>>14215
>In contrast, a conservative, say, father might not care if his own daughter happens to be kidnapped if she's a lesbian and therefore in his mind is somehow 'asking for it'. A next door neighbor might as well be an alien from Mars. I suppose. In terms of ethics.
Do you live inside of an episode of Family Guy or something?

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:30:47 No.14233

>>14227
I'd like to point out that the richest man in the world, who's a Trump supporter and proud of it, openly hates his transgender daughter and has publicly called for violence against her.

You can see more context at:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2024/07/22/elon-musk-jordan-peterson-interview/74506785007/

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:33:37 No.14234

>>14233
From a quick skim I don't see him calling for violence for her, and seems to lament the loss of his 'son' as he sees it, not hate them.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:33:43 No.14235

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>>14231
It is. It just wasn't the engagement you were looking for. I'm not really sure what you wanted me to say about an analogy about vegetables. Your analogy didn't even really hold any ground.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:34:25 No.14236

>>14230
Hating Jews in general and believing that an extremely tiny group within them might deserve short term support because they're 'the few good ones' really sounds like antisemitism to me.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and we were talking about like an African black nationalist about to launch a militant attack in, say, Kenya who said something like "all white women deserve to be raped, but the ones from that village there are fine"... I doubt you would view him as anti-racist.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:35:21 No.14237

>>14232
Are you just a complete idiot who doesn't live in the real world or something?

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:36:36 No.14238

>>14234
Are you severely autistic to a degree that inhibits mental function? Or is there something else that biologically prevents you from accepting the reality of how conservatives currently act?

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:37:35 No.14239

>>14218
^ this ^

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:39:27 No.14240

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>>14237
Nah, I live in a neighborhood with real people instead of a virtual world with professional victims. Your projection on what people would and wouldn't care about is astounding.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but a liberal left is just as likely to let their daughter get kidnapped as a conservative dad. At that point it isn't about politics and for you to make that connection is ludacris. Conservatism is about conserving traditional values. You know what trumps finding out your daughter is gay? Protecting them from a would-be kidnapper. Also if someone was kidnapping my daughter or a neighbor's daughter, I wouldn't call the police. I'd go over there and beat someone's head in with a baseball bat.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:40:23 No.14241

>>14218
I've spoken to loads of Christians, listened to probably hundreds of sermons at this point.

Never one singular time has anyone, at all, ever, in my life brought up this point.
I lived in the literal Bible belt.
I've never heard of such a thing.

I'm not saying it's not in some verse somewhere, mind you;
I'm saying I do not buy for a second this is a position of Christians for supporting Israel even though they hate Jews.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:41:24 No.14242

>>14219
The exact opposite is true. I'd say. I've seen the amount of hate for basically all minorities get worse in the 00s compared to the 90s, and even worse from the 00s to the 10s and now the 20s.

To be really honest, from the point of view of human ethics and morality I think I sort of wish that I was born in 1978 instead of 1988 because then I'd not have the same kind of whiplash.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:41:28 No.14243

>>14238
I mean, I'm a bit autistic, I'll grant, but I hardly see how that'd harm my capacity to read an article you linked and notice what you said isn't in there.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:47:38 No.14245

>>14241
Most American Christians hold moderate political views and take the broad approach in terms of foreign policy that any standard government should be defended against terrorist attacks. Most Christians would view U.S. support for Israel through the same lens as support for the United Arab Emirates (which, it must be said, is a nation that's benefited dramatically from being allied to the U.S., financially). Also, most Christians oppose racial and religious hatred on principle since most people, just as people, are like that. It's not that much different from saying that most Christians drink water and breathe air.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:49:58 No.14246

>>14241
>>14245
Talking to normal Christians isn't going to help you learn how hardliners among religious extremists think like... any more than like talking to a random Muslim guy teaches you about ISIS or to a random German dude teaches you about neo-Nazis.

Energetic Narwhal 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:49:59 No.14247

>>14245
Well there I'd agree, but, I'd consider all of that applicable to most conservatives and most Trump supporters, to boot.

I mean, these are the same folk who voted for him last time, after all. Near to half the country, and likely going to be that again, if not more, this time round.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:50:43 No.14248

>>14240
If you want to be delusional, okay, but I'd rather live in reality.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:53:55 No.14249

>>14247
You're engaged in an extremely annoying fallacy of composition.

White people in general, Christians in general, people of some center-right beliefs in general, and so on are not the MAGA base.

Statistics alone can show this. How many registered voters exist? In contrast, how many people give cash to a group? And volunteer? And more?

A 45% mass group and a 15% insane fringe, both sliced out of the 100% full populace, are not the same.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 09:54:19 No.14250

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>>14248
You live in Virtual Reality. You just said a conservative is more likely to view their neighbors as aliens and are more likely to let someone's daughter get kidnapped.

Do you know how many times the left turns on itself if you don't agree to every little detail of dogma that is spouted out by delusional danger hairs? I'm saying both sides can be stupid as fuck.

Graceful Ferret 08/06/24 (Tue) 10:54:38 No.14253

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>>14219
>And just like farts, you're going to have to learn to expect people to get offended at the smell and either say something or make a sour face.

Sometimes it's fun to fart in someone's face.

>I don't want to repeat myself, but again, if you're going to be brutally candid; prepare for others to be brutally candid.

I know, I have neatly four decades of experience with this.

>What Narwhal said to you was harsh and cruel, but it is their right to say just as it is yours to express that you were upset about people attacking medical staff and ignoring covid protocols.

I didn't really care about whether what they said was harsh or cruel, I was already angry. You basically halmost it the nail on the head here >>14167

>W-What's that? Oh wow.. Looks like the whole blanket umbrella they were talking about was for people who were threatening medical staff. And the rest .. was simply expressing frustrations?

It was that and people I described in my frustration, which implicitly describes the attitude that would motivate those who would attack medical staff trying to treat covid.

>>14219
>That hypocrisy while screaming to the heavens about how deplorable hypocrisy is just rubs me the wrong way.

Ironically, me too. It's rather narcissistic pretending one is not inconsistent when all people are. Fuck, I know I'm a hypocrite, everyone is a hypocrite in some way. I think it's deeply irresponsible to just be in denial of one's innate biases and the hypocrisies that leads to.

>You went through this emotional plea, and boom, they shit on you for it. I mean I get what they are saying, but still, show a little sympathy if you're going to give some sob story right after about losing friends and a job and what not.

Ironically the *lack* of sympathy they would show for any one that might have suffered and lost more than them (like those who died) was what I was most disgusted with. That's precisely what kills my sympathy.

>If they did that a lot of people would get into a lot of trouble. HIPPA is not to be fucked with.

Point was, the fact they even tried communicates a deeply threatening intention. Bigots are pathetic, Bigots with guns are scary, bigots with the power of a state are an existential treat to me.

>>14241
>Never one singular time has anyone, at all, ever, in my life brought up this point.
>I lived in the literal Bible belt.
I've never heard of such a thing.

I lived there too, I know Christianity in America is not a theological monolith, I mean, there have been roughly 33,000 denominations of Christianity and 200 currently active in the united states. I'm not surprised if you've never heard of Christian zionist theology, something like only 1 tp 2% of American Christians adhere to it but those who do are disproportionately overepresented among those conservatives who directly engage in pro-Israel activism.

The idea is that, based on a somewhat (inconsistently) literal interpretation of the book of revelations about the conditions necessary for the second coming. But basically, the state of Israel needs to exist in order for prophecy to be fulfilled as it is currently written. Christian Zionist tend to be evangelical or fundamentalist, often both.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 11:32:22 No.14254

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>>14253
>Sometimes it's fun to fart in someone's face.
Braaaaaap. You now have pink-eye.

Eh, I think everyone is a little mad. It was and still is a pretty charged topic. Sometimes it helps to cool off a bit and come back with a fresh mind.

>It was that and people I described in my frustration, which implicitly describes the attitude that would motivate those who would attack medical staff trying to treat covid.
Remember those videos that mysteriously disappeared from the internet when covid first hit in like late 2019? The ones in China where people were recording piles upon piles of bodies in the streets, and government officials and medical staff in Tyvek suits locking people up and dragging off barely living people? I think a lot of it started with that. China did some crazy shit. I remember hearing stories and seeing video of them hauling off people that weren't quite dead yet to be burned in ovens.
>Ironically the *lack* of sympathy they would show for any one that might have suffered and lost more than them (like those who died) was what I was most disgusted with. That's precisely what kills my sympathy.
I try not to let things kill my sympathy. I'm know people go through things that affect them even if they might not recognize it their self.
I think I know who anon is (which I am now pretty damn sure. fufufufufuf), and I'm correct I will say that they actually are a really good person and you two just got off on a really bad foot. That happens sometimes. I know I can wake up on the wrong side of the bed and be a total BITCH on certain days. I try not to be, but I'm human and flawed.
>Point was, the fact they even tried communicates a deeply threatening intention. Bigots are pathetic, Bigots with guns are scary, bigots with the power of a state are an existential treat to me.
I would be more afraid of crossing the street on a daily basis, but I get what you're saying.

Graceful Dog 08/06/24 (Tue) 11:35:18 No.14255

It would be nice if we could just collectively accept the fact that:

>Bigotry doesn't exist in the U.S., and all you see is whining because white people, straight people, and Christians in the U.S. all have no flaws.

And:

>Bigotry is in the inherent DNA of Americans because white people, straight people, and Christians here just hate all minorities who aren't like them by default.

These are both false statements. They clearly are both false. They're so obviously wrong that both of them kind of make me angry in the sense that coming across people who genuinely think that the Earth is flat piss me off, since they're engaged in a kind of aggressively narcissistic preaching just a tiny bit away from like them pulling down their pants and jerking off in public.

Like, look, for fuck's sake, if the roads in a town are 2/3rds fine and 1/3rds covered in potholes, the denialist stupidity of those who scream loudly that everyone is fine, everywhere looks great, the Mayor is a cool guy with a gigantic dick that we must all suck off, and so on... like can we stop? Please? Can we please stop pretending that me living in a situation in which I'm genuinely afraid for my physical safety walking into a religious institution locally due to public mass murder attempts is... like just a regular part or life that I must accept as 'the new normal'? Same thing as government officials working alongside militants to come up with public records fingering anybody suspected of being transgender and trying their best to get victims fired from their jobs, kicked out of their homes, denied all health care of any kind, et cetera... like without exaggeration this is exactly parallel in terms of Jim Crow and Klansmen business owners saying "I'll never let a n*gg*r enter my store" only somehow doing a Microsoft Word find and replace to "I'll never let a tr*nn* enter my store"... morally is that not also disgusting?

I'm kind of really at a loss.

Like. Look. I don't want to hate Christians, white people, and straight people. The more I get screamed at about how those three groups are blessed saints without any flaws to which not a single one of them has ever done or said anything wrong... do you guys not realize that this is 100% counterproductive? Nothing generates frustrating resentment more than being required to like and support something by force. Whether you like it or not. It's horrible.

I don't want to be a foaming at the mouth actual communist, but if you're telling me to just ignore the 1/3 or 1/6 or such radical fringe of assholes in America who want to ruin everything for the rest of us, then you're sort of making me be one. If I have to be a communist in order to want, say, increased Social Security and Medicare benefits to elderly veterans or push any other basic as hell community reform thing... I guess I'm a communist then? If everyone who isn't a Nazi has to be a communist, then so be it? Maybe?

Graceful Ferret 08/06/24 (Tue) 19:51:35 No.14263

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>>14254
>>14254
>Remember those videos that mysteriously disappeared from the internet when covid first hit in like late 2019? The ones in China where people were recording piles upon piles of bodies in the streets, and government officials and medical staff in Tyvek suits locking people up and dragging off barely living people? I think a lot of it started with that.

I don't remember those videos but regardless of if they existed or not, the point is not that they may have existed but what biases one had when making sense of them. Those biases and motivated reasoning reflect the underlying attitudes of people who engage in them. That's at the root of what infuriates and disgust me so much with it all, cause I see it as reprehensible to prioritize a prefered, absolving narrative transparently rooted in a political ingroup bias instead of accepting the uncertainty of the situation and acting in a moral responsible manner towards those one can have a direct effect upon.

>I try not to let things kill my sympathy. I'm know people go through things that affect them even if they might not recognize it their self.

I try not to either. But it's generally very difficult for me to be sympathetic with those who wouldn't be sympathetic in turn. And even if I understand why someone might feel the way they do, doesn't mean I will approve of their reasons for it. Like how I might not have a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for a kid throwing a temper tantrum cause their parents didn't buy them a toy they really wanted even if I used to do that myself when I was 5 and understand the feeling.

That and it's damn near impossible for me to have sympathy for people's feelings when they place their own feelings above people who have it worse than them. I cannot get past how morally disgusting the whole Captain Ahab archetype is. Like for instance, if a person would die of stubbornness refusing to do something humilating but necessary just to save face while hurting those who would be dependent on them doing that humiliating thing for their survival and well being, I would piss on their grave. Even if I understand it, I recognize that sometimes doing the right thing hurts.

>I think I know who anon is (which I am now pretty damn sure. fufufufufuf), and I'm correct I will say that they actually are a really good person and you two just got off on a really bad foot.

I've got a few suspicions myself and don't trust that persona given that personxs rather hypocritical and hateful broad generalizations of people not in their camp (which would include me), which they've been been engaging in for a literal decade at this point. Which is what I've always resented them for, and informs a big part of why I lack sympathy for them crying about receiving the same in turn. I'm sure at least four other people here engage in exactly that same behavior so I don't feel obligated to be sympathetic to them when they can't take it in turn.

>I would be more afraid of crossing the street on a daily basis, but I get what you're saying.

Yeah, and if I would be in an active shooter situation with someone who has like an automatic or semi automatic gun with a thousand rounds of ammo, pointing out how bad their aim was and that they could only hit 1% of the targets isn't going to make me any less vigilant in that situation.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 23:48:02 No.14264

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>>14263
Yeah, China had some pretty draconic solutions to covid for a minute there. Which, while caused immeasurable suffering could be argued as to why they recovered faster than pretty much everyone else.
> And even if I understand why someone might feel the way they do, doesn't mean I will approve of their reasons for it.
I feel that it helps to look someone 'eye to eye'. Not everyone is going to agree with one another. There's going to be people that not only disagree with one another but will ultimately hate one another's guts, whether we're talking about individuals or groups of people. I'll give a personal example: I've made it pretty clear that I hate the black community. I can understand why black people in 2024 might think that they are still being oppressed, but the reality of the situation is that the only people who oppress black people these days are other black people; and they actually have more opportunities to prosper thanks to Affirmative Action.. Which was a mistake. That's my opinion and we can get into it sometime if you'd like.

>Captain Ahab archetype is. Like for instance, if a person would die of stubbornness refusing to do something humilating but necessary just to save face while hurting those who would be dependent on them doing that humiliating thing for their survival and well being, I would piss on their grave.
Honor is a powerful concept. That same pride that might cause someone to "Just save face" at the expense of others, is the very driving tool that has caused people to do many great and wonderful things; for both good and evil.

>Like how I might not have a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for a kid throwing a temper tantrum cause their parents didn't buy them a toy they really wanted even if I used to do that myself when I was 5 and understand the feeling.
I would feel sympathy for them, but what would trump that would be the understanding that if you were to cave in to the tantrum it would teach the child some really bad habits.

https://youtu.be/LoxsJtvcIHM?feature=shared&t=22
https://youtu.be/awy9_08Pj_8?feature=shared&t=200
For some, the shame of losing honor is something they have to live with, whereas death is a mercy and would piss on the grave of someone who would squander their honor for their own selfish reasons. An extreme example would be fighting to the death rather than facing a rape; even if facing that rape would save another soul as well. Some would argue that the rape is more fucked up than killing another person. Others would argue that killing another person is more fucked up than raping them. I believe it is a complicated situation that is contextual to culture and personal values. There is no right or wrong answer in that case. But I'm going off on a tangent.

>I've got a few suspicions myself and don't trust that persona given that personxs rather hypocritical and hateful broad generalizations of people not in their camp (which would include me), which they've been been engaging in for a literal decade at this point. Which is what I've always resented them for, and informs a big part of why I lack sympathy for them crying about receiving the same in turn. I'm sure at least four other people here engage in exactly that same behavior so I don't feel obligated to be sympathetic to them when they can't take it in turn.
What camp are you referring to? All I know is that the other anon is a good person. They can be a little stubborn but at the end of the day, they're actually a total sweetheart.

>Yeah, and if I would be in an active shooter situation with someone who has like an automatic or semi automatic gun with a thousand rounds of ammo, pointing out how bad their aim was and that they could only hit 1% of the targets isn't going to make me any less vigilant in that situation.
The attempt in that analogy would be more appropriate if the shooter had a banana in their hand and were screaming 'BANG BANG!' It isn't gonna happen, especially with the momentum of support people have been subscribing to. It's even been spreading inside of prisons.. Prisons.

Gifted Cougar 08/06/24 (Tue) 23:56:40 No.14265

File: 1722988599986.gif (5.95 MB, 400x300, 4:3, I just wanna be your lucky….gif) ImgOps Google

https://youtu.be/0jdCG4ekiMc?feature=shared&t=178

Speaking of honor, this man saw the others dancing and was Possessed by the urge to show off

Graceful Ferret 08/07/24 (Wed) 04:58:39 No.14266

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>>14264
>>14264
>I feel that it helps to look someone 'eye to eye'. Not everyone is going to agree with one another. There's going to be people that not only disagree with one another but will ultimately hate one another's guts, whether we're talking about individuals or groups of people.

It's not always possible to look at someone 'eye to eye' when their assumptions about you based on group affiliations would lead them to be unwilling to do the same in turn.

>I'll give a personal example: I've made it pretty clear that I hate the black community. I can understand why black people in 2024 might think that they are still being oppressed, but the reality of the situation is that the only people who oppress black people these days are other black people; and they actually have more opportunities to prosper thanks to Affirmative Action.. Which was a mistake.

Topic for a whole other thread but this argument has always come off to me like claiming murder can't happen because it's illegal.

Plus, given that no one's will can ultimately override anyone else's will, and one's success (or even survival) is always dependent on others will to buy what your selling or to decide you deserve a paycheck, then logically, no one can claim their will or determination alone is the reason for prosperity, without also implicitly denying the agency of others.

>Honor is a powerful concept. That same pride that might cause someone to "Just save face" at the expense of others, is the very driving tool that has caused people to do many great and wonderful things; for both good and evil.

I Wasn't talking about Honor, I was talking about ego and pride, related concepts sure, but honor is more a matter of how one is perceived by others based on one's behaviors and choices while ego and pride is based on one's perception and valuing of themselves.

Eitherway, in my own hierarchy of moral priorities, I think there are absolutely things more important than pride ir honor. It's one of the things I ultimately admired about Nikita Kruschev, during the Cuban missile crisis, he did the 'dishonorable' and 'weak' thing of choosing to back down and withdraw sending nuclear missiles to Cuba, killing his political career within the soviet union. He did the humiliating thing and let the US win that game of chicken despite all the pressure from within the USSR, and may have prevented a nuclear war. That might have been a noble and honorable sacrifice on his part but he certainly lost face and was disgraced in that situation.

>For some, the shame of losing honor is something they have to live with, whereas death is a mercy and would piss on the grave of someone who would squander their honor for their own selfish reasons.

The symbolic meaning of one's actions are ultimately subjective, what might seem shameful and dishonorable to others on one level may not be so on another. It's easy to live with humiliation like that if one is willing to question or challenge why others would judge it as dishonorable. Again I point to the example of Nikita Krushchev, in the USSR he was treated like a dishonorable coward and would have had to live with that for the rest of his life. But on a broader scale of the world as a whole, he honorably stood up against the massive stupidity and reckless irresponsibility of machismo and bravado when dealing with weapons of mass destruction.

>What camp are you referring to? All I know is that the other anon is a good person. They can be a little stubborn but at the end of the day, they're actually a total sweetheart.

I'm talking about political alignment. Shitting on strawman leftist and hypocritical generalizations made from cherry-picked examples of leftist consistent with what ever the standard among the right-wing media ecosystem or /pol/ at any given time is something that has been happening here on /townhall/ for years now. It's not like my frustrations with people here and attempting to engage with people here comes from nothing.

And no one alone can be a good judge of anyone's character when everyone they interact with are reacting to them in turn, if someone likes you already or thinks you're already in their tribe then of course one would only see their goodside and not see their negatives, and vice versa for those in an outgroup or presumed 'enemy' camp who get to experience a person's bad side.

>>14264
>The attempt in that analogy would be more appropriate if the shooter had a banana in their hand and were screaming 'BANG BANG!' It isn't gonna happen, especially with the momentum of support people have been subscribing to. It's even been spreading inside of prisons.. Prisons.

I sometimes trust prisoners more than politicians really. I'm a true believer that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And even if that's not true, I also believe the corrupt and fearful tend to be absolutely ambitious (which tangentially, is the reason Trumpism seems so nonsensical to me, why take at face value anything said by someone who is asking to be the most powerful person in the world?)

Gifted Cougar 08/07/24 (Wed) 06:23:02 No.14267

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>>14266
>Topic for a whole other thread but this argument has always come off to me like claiming murder can't happen because it's illegal.
If we're talking about cases of racism on a case-by-case basis, yeah it happens. Black people actually commit quite a number of hate crimes themselves. Just look at the statistics of hate crimes against asians and you'll find that blacks are disproportionately hostile towards them compared to any other race.
If we're talking on a systematic level, well, that just isn't the case. -- But you're right, this really is a different topic for a different thread so I'm going to concede for the moment.

>honor is more a matter of how one is perceived by others based on one's behaviors and choices while ego and pride is based on one's perception and valuing of themselves.
I would say they go hand in hand, really. Someone can absolutely feel as though their honor is lost even when there is no one around to watch. Honor is a part of integrity. Integrity is a part of honor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_NCvPbc0o
^I like the beginning of this. It's semi-related. Heh.
>But on a broader scale of the world as a whole, he honorably stood up against the massive stupidity and reckless irresponsibility of machismo and bravado when dealing with weapons of mass destruction.
Yeah, human values are subjective. Even the idea or morality is subjective. Some would argue that there are objective moral truths, but I think they are wrong. While killing an innocent for the sake of killing is considered evil, technically we as humans are the only ones who have determined that. It is evil to (almost) everyone on the planet and can be seen as deplorable and and worthy of punishment. If you look on a more natural, rustic, and primordial level the only law of the land is the laws of nature; might makes right. And might takes takes many, many different forms of power. Power is power.
>Picture related^
For good ole' Nikita, he could be seen as honorable for denouncing Stalin for his war crimes. To others he could be seen as a cowardly turncoat who went against the grain for his own personal gain. Bleeding heart ideals at the expense of precious gulag free labor. Or whatever people might have seen it as

Gifted Cougar 08/07/24 (Wed) 06:28:53 No.14268

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>>14266
>And no one alone can be a good judge of anyone's character when everyone they interact with are reacting to them in turn, if someone likes you already or thinks you're already in their tribe then of course one would only see their goodside and not see their negatives, and vice versa for those in an outgroup or presumed 'enemy' camp who get to experience a person's bad side.
I can't speak for everyone, but my own circle of friends can be pretty quick to criticize and speak their own mind, as can I if needed. (Or really just want to.) Do I venerate my friends? Eh, sometimes a little. I mean we are friends for a reason. Do I ignore their negative qualities? No. I love them despite their flaws.

The same could be said about a tribe or affiliation with less of a personal ring to it. I know that not every category I fit into is perfect. I know that my own line of thinking isn't perfect. Perfection is a paradox because it is never obtainable.
>I sometimes trust prisoners more than politicians really.
Hah! I hear that. The prisoners (while typically survivalists who will lie, cheat, and steal) are on average more honest than a lot of politicians. -- Though if we are going to be fair about it: a lot of politicians should be prisoners with the hidden and not so hidden deeds they've done at other's expenses.

>It's not like my frustrations with people here and attempting to engage with people here comes from nothing.
Politics and serious biz tend to bring out the worst in people. So far, I haven't really seen anything too terrible from the people here; including yourself, and I've asked around. I don't know you personally, but you don't seem like some monster to me. You seem misunderstood and simply wish to be heard. I am a kindred spirit in that regard even if I do not agree with all of your perspectives; I am listening to them.

(Except that one time I tried to extend an olive branch between channels, and everyone started throwing rotten tomatoes at me for it. That was kind of shitty. The one thing I will say about ponyboards in general is that they can be kind of band wagon-like. That's why I like free thinkers. If someone happens to agree with the crowd; cool. But don't attack me just to look cool in front of your friends for internet clout. That's how people usually end up getting their feelings hurt and then I'm the bad guy.)

Graceful Dog 08/07/24 (Wed) 09:07:21 No.14271

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>black-on-black crime mentioned<

I actually really like how 'Minoriteam', the parodic cartoon series, personified all this with the rise of ◇ Balactus ◇. A fabled demigod who eats entire planets. As an entity who makes black-on-black crime become as exaggerated as possible, he tries to, like, basically destroy everything related to every race... just because he can.

Also, holy fuck, he was voiced by black superstar Michael Clarke Duncan of all people:

> https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0982320/

On topic... I'd say that, yes, bigoted hatred possessed by certain black people against not just other black people but a whole smorgasbord of other groups is a major social problem without an easy answer... it does matter... tough stuff...

Gifted Cougar 08/07/24 (Wed) 10:45:56 No.14273

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>>14271
>a major social problem without an easy answer
We could be like El Salvador where they rounded up everyone with gang affiliations and tattoos and just threw them in jail without trail. Crime dropped like 90% over there.

We could round up all the black people and push them somewhere else.

Graceful Dog 08/07/24 (Wed) 15:44:28 No.14274

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>>14271
He looks so badass NGL

Gifted Cougar 08/07/24 (Wed) 18:15:00 No.14275

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>>14274
https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/1cnegwo/sit_your_white_ass_down_and_listen_to_the_tale_of/

Graceful Ferret 08/07/24 (Wed) 22:33:47 No.14278

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>>14267
>If we're talking on a systematic level, well, that just isn't the case. -- But you're right, this really is a different topic for a different thread so I'm going to concede for the moment.

From my personal experience coming from a white (formerly) upper-middle class family with a lawyer and aspiring republican politician for a dad, and knowing many of his other conservative friends, I can assure you that there has been a long history of legislation passed and sold to the public with rhetoric made in bad faith with one intention publicly justifying it and another intentioned expressed only behind closed doors. Like how one of the reasons we have struggled so long to get something like universal healthcare is because of the fear that it might make social mobility easier for black people, but of course, they'll only admit it to you when they think that, because you're white and of a similar class background, that you might already agree. And of course everyone is getting fucked over by that, that and other similar legislation with the effect of exacerbating social stratification and keeping wealth concentrated.

It's pretty much the reason I trust prisoners more than politicians. They rely on the public not being familiar with the law or what the logical end effect of a policy is in context of all other policies still being enacted, like all the local zoning laws contributing to our current affordable housing crisis all over the country

>If you look on a more natural, rustic, and primordial level the only law of the land is the laws of nature; might makes right. And might takes takes many, many different forms of power. Power is power.

I am familiar with that view and I've always thought of it as a little narrow. I mean, human beings are a social species evolved for inter-dependence, and we're born with brains so underdeveloped that we are 100% dependent on others for survival for quite a long period of our lives as compared to other animals that often reach adult status within a year or less. And we willfully live for our offspring off an innate drive to do so,. And even if, ultimately, it benefits or survival as a specicies as a whole to live interdependently with others and/or to be providers, being concious of that fact has no baring on if we have the natural drive to do so anyway. Sure, law of nature, might makes right etc etc, but that's not the whole picture.

And even if there is no such thing as objective morality, so what? I think most moral and ethical systems exist as an attempt to rationalize a the pro-social instinct to oneself in the contexxt of the natural internal struggle between a self-serving instinct and pro-social instinct anyway. Universal compassion is basically a humanly universal ideal reflected in the moral ideals of all the worlds oldest and most popular religious traditions (while they each lie about what the others believe regarding this). So why not just go with that flow? I will act on my instinct to provide and protect for others I can directly effect and respecting all other human beings drive for the same cause I never know who I may need to depend on in the future or who may need what I can provide. Tribalism may be humanly natural, but group identities aren't always permanent and in my life (especially with my experiences as an LGBT person) I never really know who will be in my in-group in the future.

Gifted Cougar 08/08/24 (Thu) 10:46:42 No.14281

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>>14278
I must admit. You see the world quite differently from myself, and yet I am enjoying our conversation. I also like the texas cow avatar. It is fitting.
>Like how one of the reasons we have struggled so long to get something like universal healthcare is because of the fear that it might make social mobility easier for black people, but of course, they'll only admit it to you when they think that, because you're white and of a similar class background, that you might already agree.
Most of the people I've talked to who are against universal healthcare are against it for reasons that are pretty much every reasons except for "It'll help out the darkies!" And I've had some pretty racist friends in the past. Most of the reasons I've heard from those types of people is that they think it'll take away their ability to purchase more private healthcare, and that with universal government funded health care that they'll "End up stuck on a waiting list for a year just to get some cough medicine!"

The closest thing I've had to universal healthcare was the system they had for it in the military, and to be honest it was actually pretty nice. "I am sick." Coof coof "Uhh dude, go to medical." It was that simple. I think change like that scares people. I feel like if there are going to be two free services, health/dental and education should be them.
Prisoners and politicians: I feel like dealing with both are like dealing with demons vs devils in D&D. They're both gonna lie to you, but in distinctive ways.

>I am familiar with that view and I've always thought of it as a little narrow. I mean, human beings are a social species evolved for inter-dependence, and we're born with brains so underdeveloped that we are 100% dependent on others for survival for quite a long period of our lives as compared to other animals that often reach adult status within a year or less.

We're social and complex creatures, yes, but even within a social and complex creature the need to dominate and secure positions of power is written in our DNA. Look at Chimpanzees. Those things are arguably even more inclined towards violence and if you didn't know about them from a scientific point of view could be seen as hellspawn written straight out of myth and legend. They're incredibly social omnivores that rely on one another and yet follow the rules of "Might equals right," to a tee. Remember that the whole "Power equals power" speech is simply talking about your ability to control and manipulate the world around you; whether it's through sheer brute force or social interactions. (Whether you're simply trying to be charming, or have some sort of other social edge.) Humans have perfected the art of both.

Graceful Ferret 08/08/24 (Thu) 19:10:20 No.14283

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>>14281

>I must admit. You see the world quite differently from myself, and yet I am enjoying our conversation.

Everyone has their own experiences that shape their worldview. No one has the whole picture. Certainly not myself nor anyone else here. Dogmatic conviction about one's worldview is not really rational.

>I also like the texas cow avatar. It is fitting.

I'm much more of a stereotypical central Texas urban/suburban dwelling geek than a cowgirl, I'm just playing up the fact Im from there when establishing the origin point of my experiences that shape my worldview (so far).

>Most of the people I've talked to who are against universal healthcare are against it for reasons that are pretty much every reasons except for "It'll help out the darkies!"

Most people who aren't wealthy white old-money southern elites wouldn't be aware of the racism involved in the decades long battle against universal healthcare. A lot of the rhetoric against it as you relate originated in rhetorical strategy cooked up in political think tanks who understand that you can't convince lower and middle class people to support securing the position of power against the threat of social mobility. Lower and middle class whites are generally a lot less racists than the white upper class in the south, who are inheriting the culture of the old southern plantation class that's been working for the past 160 years to maintain their status in the south after the Civil War beginning with things like the 'lost cause' narrative and lots of more explicit attempts to maintain a racial caste system via things like Jim Crow era segregation to less explicit things like policy positions that made social mobility harder for people who were already poor ( https://youtu.be/X_8E3ENrKrQ?si=FHEvxsZH0gZwuRkX )

>I think change like that scares people. I feel like if there are going to be two free services, health/dental and education should be them.

I totally agree. In fact I'd go on a related tangent that you can't really apply capitlaist economic principles to certain social services and resources. Medical care is characterized by inelastic demand, demand for a lot of medical products and services won't go down in situations when it's literally do or die. You can't expect someone trying not to die from diabetes complications to bargain and shop around for insulin when all manufacturers know that they can't really afford to go without it and die of hyperglycemia, so you can't rely on a market based solution to make it affordable since the supplier will always have enormous bargaining power over the consumer. This inelastic demand is ultimately why health insurance exist in the first place, and the effect that has is that healthcare pricing starts to resolve around 'insurance whales', people who have way more coverage than they need ... which in turn reinforces class structures cause you're more likely to fall into massive medical debt the less you can afford medical insurance. It's one of many reasons is so much more expensive to be poor in America than rich.

As for education that's another good example given that it's almost impossible to meaningfully quantify the success of education given the fact that people are all unique and their success in an educational setting is no guarantee of success in the real world when access to opportunities is largely beyond the control of any individual, especially when job markets and demand for skills can rapidly shift faster than it takes to educate a person, so how can anyone quantify the value of an education when the value of one's education can fluctuate so rapidly. But that's built on the assumption that the only legitimate justification for education is to build marketable work skills when there are a ton of other good reasons for people to get educated beyond just job skill training, which big businesses would oppose given how it would undermine a lot of their bargaining power against consumers. Like, making markets work as intended: the 'invisible hand' is the cumulative effect of all purchasing decisions made by all participants in a market, but it's reliability in rewarding the best products and service is dependent on the consumers ability to think critically and knowledgeablly about those decisions and not get conned in the process (this is why teaching financial literacy in public school is often opposed by Republicans in many red states, especially my home state). Education also, ideally, should propogate understanding of many different worldviews and broaden everyone's worldviews for the sake of social cohesion, but how can a market quantify the value of that?

I also have similar positions when it comes to ownership of land given how land is characterized by perfect inelastic supply.

>We're social and complex creatures, yes, but even within a social and complex creature the need to dominate and secure positions of power is written in our DNA. Look at Chimpanzees. Those things are arguably even more inclined towards violence and if you didn't know about them from a scientific point of view could be seen as hellspawn written straight out of myth and legend. They're incredibly social omnivores that rely on one another and yet follow the rules of "Might equals right," to a tee.

Tge thing about ecosystems, surviving and thriving within them, is that there is no absolutely optimal strategy. There is far more than just one way for a species to survive and thrive, and it depends on the characteristics of the ecosystem those species evolved in, which includes the survival strategies employed by other organisms in the same ecosystem. I mean, if we're talking about primates most closely related to humans genetically I could also point to bonobos as a contrast against chimpanzees, they're far less likely to engage in the kind of violent dominance of other groups and families of bonobos that chimps would with other chimpanzee communities and families. Bonobos are far more likely to engage in recreational sexual activity to create bonds between families and communities of bonobos. Both survival strategies work in the respective ecosystems both species evolved within.

As for humans the need to dominate is contextual, ultimately rooted in how scarce or abundant resources are within the context of the ecosystem that a culture evolved in. Like, take for example Japanese culture, even before it came under the influence of chinese culture, the prior native culture of Japan was still collectivist as a consequence of how the Japanese archipelago is both ideal for agriculture given it's disproportionately abundant water sources in the form of natural spring and patterns of rainfall, but also being in a place prone to natural disasters like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons, all of which require a very high degree of cooperation between people to survive.

Meanwhile in regions with a high degree of resource scarcity, the human instinct to fall back into small tribes of codependent individuals competing with other tribes of codependent individuals becomes dominant given that fact, regardless of if it's a natural fact if the ecosystem or an artificial state created by the structure of an economy. Hence why Arabic culture has an ancient history of tribalism and participation in international trade for survival given the resource scarcity of the Arabian peninsula. Or how impovrished subcultures of marginalized communities in the united states have a history of gangs and gang related violence given the effects of employment discrimination and artificial scarcity imposed on this as a consequence of that. Poverty cultures thus tend to naturally become quite cutthroat.

Both impulses are hardcoded in human DNA, but niether of them are the default for humanity.

Gifted Cougar 08/09/24 (Fri) 15:19:44 No.14286

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>>14283
>I'm much more of a stereotypical central Texas urban/suburban dwelling geek than a cowgirl
I've only been to texas a handful of times. Houston, San Antonio, some small-little oil-rigging town, and Dallas. I did some disaster relief work out there for a while.
>wouldn't be aware of the racism involved in the decades long battle against universal healthcare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxEZ4QaAAvI
My friend and I were talking about this yesterday. I tend to think it's more of a class bias than a racial one; minorities just tend to be in the lower classes due to whatever reason or another.
I can't really speak too much on the South because I haven't lived out there. I just don't fall into the whole conspiracy that taxes are coded as anti-black. I know the government has actually done some pretty shady stuff like the release of crack into black neighborhoods but to say that so many fingers would be in a single pie and remaining stable is pretty ridiculous; double so to claim when most people in the south advocate for less taxes. (Which is a die if you do, die if you don't think when it comes to the 'support' of black people. Do you argue that taxes are ruining their pockets on a day-to-day basis, or that healthcare programs ect can't be funded without them? This is why I hate talking about racial issues because at the end of the day there's no pleasing those people. There's a reason black people are nicknamed "Gimmedat's")

>Insulin
When it comes to dental/medical, a lot of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies know what they're doing. They're preying on a lack of availability in labs and knowledge to the public, but that doesn't it make it right when the actual cost of making medicine such as insulin is pocket change compared to the profit they make by selling the stuff. Let me give you an example: I used to donate plasma and would get paid like 50 dollars a bottle, which was a pint of plasma; an entire pint. They would then turn around and flip that bottle for like $800-$1600 to pharmaceutical companies.
>Free education
I also feel like teachers across america should be paid more and that public education need to be focused on both on a minor's level and adult's level. We need more teachers and better-quality teachers, but we also need to make teaching appealing. The current system we have in order to gain an education is predatory and immoral in my opinion.
>I also have similar positions when it comes to ownership of land given how land is characterized by perfect inelastic supply.
It's a complicated situation. I lean heavily more towards private ownership of land, but understand capitalism has its issues that makes the world very Cyberpunk/Shadowrun. On the other hand, I'll pass on commie shit.
>I mean, if we're talking about primates most closely related to humans genetically I could also point to bonobos as a contrast against chimpanzees, they're far less likely to engage in the kind of violent dominance of other groups and families of bonobos that chimps would with other chimpanzee communities and families.
Of course. Some animals (species, breed, race) are more prone to violence than others. People forget that aggression is a breedable and passable trait within animals. That's how certain breeds of designer dog are created not only in appearance but typical behaviors as well. Of course, aggression is also a learned trait in animals such as human beings as well, but for example: even if you raise a chimpanzee from birth, there is a huge chance it is going to eventually turn on its owner and rip their face off.. Literally. It's happened before with people who have been around them in a shocking number of cases. You can argue that the chimp didn't recognize their owner, or that they got jealous of another chimp, or whatever the case may be; but at the end of the day, the chimp's first thought was to go apeshit and mutilate a human being in the process.
>Japanese archipelago is both ideal for agriculture given it's disproportionately abundant water sources in the form of natural spring and patterns of rainfall, but also being in a place prone to natural disasters like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons, all of which require a very high degree of cooperation between people to survive.
Japanese people were also known for their exceptional cruelty towards everyone else around them and were known by both the Chinese and Koreans as the island tribes of "Short Barbarians." But I get what you're saying; strife forces people to come together and trauma-bond out of necessity.