/townhall/ - Townhall

>>14214
Given the consistent policy position of giving millions to Isreal, I don't think hatred for jews is a conservative staple either.

>>14215
I feel quite confident in saying a conservative father would care if his daughter was kidnapped, regardless of their orientation.

>>14216

Christian Zionism is rooted in a religious belief that Isreal needs to exists before Jesus can return. It's not anything to do with religious tolerance, many wouldn't give two shits about them beyond that

>>14212
So, I really don't need your shade. It's really telling just how much you devolve in conversation when your ego is challenged. I'll have to remember not to tell people when they are being hypocritical.
>>14208
And just like farts, you're going to have to learn to expect people to get offended at the smell and either say something or make a sour face. I'm not saying it was wrong to express yourself. That would be silly. But you have to remember or at least be prepared to hear other people's opinions about your own once you say them. I remember one time I said that I was openly racist or something along those lines and people here, yourself included jumped on me about it.

Was I prepared for that? Absolutely. Did it bother me that people jumped on me? No. If anything, I wanted to hear what everyone had to say.
>I try to be as sincere as I can be, even if it means being brutally candid.
I don't want to repeat myself, but again, if you're going to be brutally candid; prepare for others to be brutally candid. What Narwhal said to you was harsh and cruel, but it is their right to say just as it is yours to express that you were upset about people attacking medical staff and ignoring covid protocols. My issue with them is that they don't realize that they are acting with just as much ignorance and passion as they would see you. That hypocrisy while screaming to the heavens about how deplorable hypocrisy is just rubs me the wrong way.

Not to mention the timing. You went through this emotional plea, and boom, they shit on you for it. I mean I get what they are saying, but still, show a little sympathy if you're going to give some sob story right after about losing friends and a job and what not. It makes it hard to really care about what someone says when right after that sensitive post is dropped they link your post and go "OOGA BOOGA TRIBALISM." Everyone lost something during covid whether it was something significant or less so. I mean, I'm gonna make this very clear: I don't entirely agree with either side. And I feel really bad that the two of you went through hardships. That sucks. That really sucks.
>I think the first transgender person to ever be elected mayor of a town
Hey, good on you texas. That's pretty neat.
>non-white gen Xers
>more accepting of anything LGBT related
Hey, I disagree. Black people are some of the most transphobic people on the planet and actually commit more crime against black transfolks disproportionate higher than any other race on the planet. That's a fact in America and globally. I think the stat I read before was that if you're a black transgendered living in a black community you are 800% more likely to be targeted by violent crime than any other race.. By other blacks.
>provide names and medical records of any current or former residents of Texas who have received gender-affirming care
If they did that a lot of people would get into a lot of trouble. HIPAA is not to be fucked with.

Anyway, if it means anything I don't care if you're trans or cisgendered. As long as you have a good heart, that's all that matters to me.

>I am literally terrified of the fact that many of the most powerful and wealthy people in my homestate consider me pedophile and thus a potential enemy of the state.
>Christians
>Republicans
I know that there are a lot of inconsiderate and transphobic people in those two demographics, and that politicians can be pretty shitty people at times. I don't want to handwave but let me give you a glimmer of hope. In this current year; in this current political and social climate; it is actually becoming more so and more looked down upon by the common people to talk bad about other groups. I've heard plenty of people trash talk trans people in the past, in the military, at school, and on the streets. But I've also heard more people defend transfolks this year alone, much more so the past 5 years than I have in my entire life.

A little food for thought. Keep your chin up.

>>14219
It's less a matter of shade and more that thus far, you've only meaningfully engaged in posts made as simple as could be.
It's why I'm limiting myself to a maximum of one paragraph.

>>14220
I've engaged in everything you've thrown at me thus far. You just don't like the results. You don't like my perspectives, you don't like my answers, you don't like anything about me; and that's your problem. Which is fine. I'm not going to sit here and pretend my opinion is something it's not, so go ahead and keep making a sour face all you'd like. I'll still stick to my guns that I think you are a good person. You just believe you are 100% with all of your conviction because you are stubborn. Which is fine. I'm not here to change your opinion, simply point out my own.

>>14216
A conservative in 2024 would be a neo-Nazi in 2004. While a conservative in 2004 would be either a centrist or a liberal in 2024. And what neo-Nazis said in 2004 is standard on the mainstream right-wing in 2024. A liberal or moderate in 2024 would be a conservative in 2004. These are facts given the movements drastically melodramatic shift first in opposition to Obama and then even more so under Trump.

You can't take something that Mitt Romney and John McCain did back before many of today's internet influences were even born and pretend that it represents conservatives now.

Transgender people's human rights is a crying out loud level example here because in 2004 if a famous celebrity declared that they were of the actual opposite gender it would be considered a)shocking for them to do that and also b)something that they clearly had the right to do while c)trying to kidnap, rape, and/or kill that person would make the threatening one look crazy and evil (not the transgender person). In 2024? Yeah. Different story. I can speak from personal experience here as an LGBT person who was somewhat involved in conservative politics in the sane times.

>>14223
Republicans in 2024 are still sending millions to Israel.

>>14217
You fail to understand modern conservatives under Trump, as compared to the gentlemen conservatives under the likes of, say, McCain, quite dramatically. I find your ignorance tiring.

>>14226
I'm quite confident Trump supporters would care if their daughter was kidnapped, regardless of their orientation.

>>14225
They're sending millions to a particular far right Israeli government while also a)demonizing Jews in America, b)demonizing worldwide Jews generally, and c)demonizing Jews in Israel who don't support their ideological faction.

That's not really an expression of racial and religious equality at all.

Suppose an African strongman were to proclaim: "I hate white people, but I love the few good ones". Would you view him as socially progressive and tolerant? Would you recommend white people live in his nation?

>>14224
>Nooooo you didn't say the thing I wanted you to say! That isn't engaging meeeeee.
kek

>>14228
I don't exactly disagree that Israel is an ethnostate theocracy, but I hardly see how supporting such a place would coincide with antisemitism.

Unless you're trying to argue it's only 'some' jews, or that Israel doesn't count.
But that doesn't seem to track to me.

>>14229
Posting meme videos isn't engaging.

>>14215
>In contrast, a conservative, say, father might not care if his own daughter happens to be kidnapped if she's a lesbian and therefore in his mind is somehow 'asking for it'. A next door neighbor might as well be an alien from Mars. I suppose. In terms of ethics.
Do you live inside of an episode of Family Guy or something?

>>14227
I'd like to point out that the richest man in the world, who's a Trump supporter and proud of it, openly hates his transgender daughter and has publicly called for violence against her.

You can see more context at:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2024/07/22/elon-musk-jordan-peterson-interview/74506785007/

>>14233
From a quick skim I don't see him calling for violence for her, and seems to lament the loss of his 'son' as he sees it, not hate them.

>>14231
It is. It just wasn't the engagement you were looking for. I'm not really sure what you wanted me to say about an analogy about vegetables. Your analogy didn't even really hold any ground.

>>14230
Hating Jews in general and believing that an extremely tiny group within them might deserve short term support because they're 'the few good ones' really sounds like antisemitism to me.

If the shoe was on the other foot, and we were talking about like an African black nationalist about to launch a militant attack in, say, Kenya who said something like "all white women deserve to be raped, but the ones from that village there are fine"... I doubt you would view him as anti-racist.

>>14232
Are you just a complete idiot who doesn't live in the real world or something?

>>14234
Are you severely autistic to a degree that inhibits mental function? Or is there something else that biologically prevents you from accepting the reality of how conservatives currently act?

>>14237
Nah, I live in a neighborhood with real people instead of a virtual world with professional victims. Your projection on what people would and wouldn't care about is astounding.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but a liberal left is just as likely to let their daughter get kidnapped as a conservative dad. At that point it isn't about politics and for you to make that connection is ludacris. Conservatism is about conserving traditional values. You know what trumps finding out your daughter is gay? Protecting them from a would-be kidnapper. Also if someone was kidnapping my daughter or a neighbor's daughter, I wouldn't call the police. I'd go over there and beat someone's head in with a baseball bat.

>>14218
I've spoken to loads of Christians, listened to probably hundreds of sermons at this point.

Never one singular time has anyone, at all, ever, in my life brought up this point.
I lived in the literal Bible belt.
I've never heard of such a thing.

I'm not saying it's not in some verse somewhere, mind you;
I'm saying I do not buy for a second this is a position of Christians for supporting Israel even though they hate Jews.

>>14219
The exact opposite is true. I'd say. I've seen the amount of hate for basically all minorities get worse in the 00s compared to the 90s, and even worse from the 00s to the 10s and now the 20s.

To be really honest, from the point of view of human ethics and morality I think I sort of wish that I was born in 1978 instead of 1988 because then I'd not have the same kind of whiplash.

>>14238
I mean, I'm a bit autistic, I'll grant, but I hardly see how that'd harm my capacity to read an article you linked and notice what you said isn't in there.

>>14241
Most American Christians hold moderate political views and take the broad approach in terms of foreign policy that any standard government should be defended against terrorist attacks. Most Christians would view U.S. support for Israel through the same lens as support for the United Arab Emirates (which, it must be said, is a nation that's benefited dramatically from being allied to the U.S., financially). Also, most Christians oppose racial and religious hatred on principle since most people, just as people, are like that. It's not that much different from saying that most Christians drink water and breathe air.

>>14241
>>14245
Talking to normal Christians isn't going to help you learn how hardliners among religious extremists think like... any more than like talking to a random Muslim guy teaches you about ISIS or to a random German dude teaches you about neo-Nazis.

>>14245
Well there I'd agree, but, I'd consider all of that applicable to most conservatives and most Trump supporters, to boot.

I mean, these are the same folk who voted for him last time, after all. Near to half the country, and likely going to be that again, if not more, this time round.

>>14240
If you want to be delusional, okay, but I'd rather live in reality.

>>14247
You're engaged in an extremely annoying fallacy of composition.

White people in general, Christians in general, people of some center-right beliefs in general, and so on are not the MAGA base.

Statistics alone can show this. How many registered voters exist? In contrast, how many people give cash to a group? And volunteer? And more?

A 45% mass group and a 15% insane fringe, both sliced out of the 100% full populace, are not the same.

>>14248
You live in Virtual Reality. You just said a conservative is more likely to view their neighbors as aliens and are more likely to let someone's daughter get kidnapped.

Do you know how many times the left turns on itself if you don't agree to every little detail of dogma that is spouted out by delusional danger hairs? I'm saying both sides can be stupid as fuck.

>>14219
>And just like farts, you're going to have to learn to expect people to get offended at the smell and either say something or make a sour face.

Sometimes it's fun to fart in someone's face.


>I don't want to repeat myself, but again, if you're going to be brutally candid; prepare for others to be brutally candid.

I know, I have neatly four decades of experience with this.

>What Narwhal said to you was harsh and cruel, but it is their right to say just as it is yours to express that you were upset about people attacking medical staff and ignoring covid protocols.

I didn't really care about whether what they said was harsh or cruel, I was already angry. You basically halmost it the nail on the head here >>14167

>W-What's that? Oh wow.. Looks like the whole blanket umbrella they were talking about was for people who were threatening medical staff. And the rest .. was simply expressing frustrations?

It was that and people I described in my frustration, which implicitly describes the attitude that would motivate those who would attack medical staff trying to treat covid.

>>14219
>That hypocrisy while screaming to the heavens about how deplorable hypocrisy is just rubs me the wrong way.

Ironically, me too. It's rather narcissistic pretending one is not inconsistent when all people are. Fuck, I know I'm a hypocrite, everyone is a hypocrite in some way. I think it's deeply irresponsible to just be in denial of one's innate biases and the hypocrisies that leads to.

>You went through this emotional plea, and boom, they shit on you for it. I mean I get what they are saying, but still, show a little sympathy if you're going to give some sob story right after about losing friends and a job and what not.

Ironically the *lack* of sympathy they would show for any one that might have suffered and lost more than them (like those who died) was what I was most disgusted with. That's precisely what kills my sympathy.

>If they did that a lot of people would get into a lot of trouble. HIPPA is not to be fucked with.

Point was, the fact they even tried communicates a deeply threatening intention. Bigots are pathetic, Bigots with guns are scary, bigots with the power of a state are an existential treat to me.



>>14241
>Never one singular time has anyone, at all, ever, in my life brought up this point.
>I lived in the literal Bible belt.
I've never heard of such a thing.

I lived there too, I know Christianity in America is not a theological monolith, I mean, there have been roughly 33,000 denominations of Christianity and 200 currently active in the united states. I'm not surprised if you've never heard of Christian zionist theology, something like only 1 tp 2% of American Christians adhere to it but those who do are disproportionately overepresented among those conservatives who directly engage in pro-Israel activism.

The idea is that, based on a somewhat (inconsistently) literal interpretation of the book of revelations about the conditions necessary for the second coming. But basically, the state of Israel needs to exist in order for prophecy to be fulfilled as it is currently written. Christian Zionist tend to be evangelical or fundamentalist, often both.

>>14253
>Sometimes it's fun to fart in someone's face.
Braaaaaap. You now have pink-eye.

Eh, I think everyone is a little mad. It was and still is a pretty charged topic. Sometimes it helps to cool off a bit and come back with a fresh mind.

>It was that and people I described in my frustration, which implicitly describes the attitude that would motivate those who would attack medical staff trying to treat covid.
Remember those videos that mysteriously disappeared from the internet when covid first hit in like late 2019? The ones in China where people were recording piles upon piles of bodies in the streets, and government officials and medical staff in Tyvek suits locking people up and dragging off barely living people? I think a lot of it started with that. China did some crazy shit. I remember hearing stories and seeing video of them hauling off people that weren't quite dead yet to be burned in ovens.
>Ironically the *lack* of sympathy they would show for any one that might have suffered and lost more than them (like those who died) was what I was most disgusted with. That's precisely what kills my sympathy.
I try not to let things kill my sympathy. I'm know people go through things that affect them even if they might not recognize it their self.
I think I know who anon is (which I am now pretty damn sure. fufufufufuf), and I'm correct I will say that they actually are a really good person and you two just got off on a really bad foot. That happens sometimes. I know I can wake up on the wrong side of the bed and be a total BITCH on certain days. I try not to be, but I'm human and flawed.
>Point was, the fact they even tried communicates a deeply threatening intention. Bigots are pathetic, Bigots with guns are scary, bigots with the power of a state are an existential treat to me.
I would be more afraid of crossing the street on a daily basis, but I get what you're saying.

It would be nice if we could just collectively accept the fact that:

>Bigotry doesn't exist in the U.S., and all you see is whining because white people, straight people, and Christians in the U.S. all have no flaws.

And:

>Bigotry is in the inherent DNA of Americans because white people, straight people, and Christians here just hate all minorities who aren't like them by default.

These are both false statements. They clearly are both false. They're so obviously wrong that both of them kind of make me angry in the sense that coming across people who genuinely think that the Earth is flat piss me off, since they're engaged in a kind of aggressively narcissistic preaching just a tiny bit away from like them pulling down their pants and jerking off in public.

Like, look, for fuck's sake, if the roads in a town are 2/3rds fine and 1/3rds covered in potholes, the denialist stupidity of those who scream loudly that everyone is fine, everywhere looks great, the Mayor is a cool guy with a gigantic dick that we must all suck off, and so on... like can we stop? Please? Can we please stop pretending that me living in a situation in which I'm genuinely afraid for my physical safety walking into a religious institution locally due to public mass murder attempts is... like just a regular part or life that I must accept as 'the new normal'? Same thing as government officials working alongside militants to come up with public records fingering anybody suspected of being transgender and trying their best to get victims fired from their jobs, kicked out of their homes, denied all health care of any kind, et cetera... like without exaggeration this is exactly parallel in terms of Jim Crow and Klansmen business owners saying "I'll never let a n*gg*r enter my store" only somehow doing a Microsoft Word find and replace to "I'll never let a tr*nn* enter my store"... morally is that not also disgusting?

I'm kind of really at a loss.

Like. Look. I don't want to hate Christians, white people, and straight people. The more I get screamed at about how those three groups are blessed saints without any flaws to which not a single one of them has ever done or said anything wrong... do you guys not realize that this is 100% counterproductive? Nothing generates frustrating resentment more than being required to like and support something by force. Whether you like it or not. It's horrible.

I don't want to be a foaming at the mouth actual communist, but if you're telling me to just ignore the 1/3 or 1/6 or such radical fringe of assholes in America who want to ruin everything for the rest of us, then you're sort of making me be one. If I have to be a communist in order to want, say, increased Social Security and Medicare benefits to elderly veterans or push any other basic as hell community reform thing... I guess I'm a communist then? If everyone who isn't a Nazi has to be a communist, then so be it? Maybe?

>>14254
>>14254
>Remember those videos that mysteriously disappeared from the internet when covid first hit in like late 2019? The ones in China where people were recording piles upon piles of bodies in the streets, and government officials and medical staff in Tyvek suits locking people up and dragging off barely living people? I think a lot of it started with that.

I don't remember those videos but regardless of if they existed or not, the point is not that they may have existed but what biases one had when making sense of them. Those biases and motivated reasoning reflect the underlying attitudes of people who engage in them. That's at the root of what infuriates and disgust me so much with it all, cause I see it as reprehensible to prioritize a prefered, absolving narrative transparently rooted in a political ingroup bias instead of accepting the uncertainty of the situation and acting in a moral responsible manner towards those one can have a direct effect upon.

>I try not to let things kill my sympathy. I'm know people go through things that affect them even if they might not recognize it their self.

I try not to either. But it's generally very difficult for me to be sympathetic with those who wouldn't be sympathetic in turn. And even if I understand why someone might feel the way they do, doesn't mean I will approve of their reasons for it. Like how I might not have a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for a kid throwing a temper tantrum cause their parents didn't buy them a toy they really wanted even if I used to do that myself when I was 5 and understand the feeling.

That and it's damn near impossible for me to have sympathy for people's feelings when they place their own feelings above people who have it worse than them. I cannot get past how morally disgusting the whole Captain Ahab archetype is. Like for instance, if a person would die of stubbornness refusing to do something humilating but necessary just to save face while hurting those who would be dependent on them doing that humiliating thing for their survival and well being, I would piss on their grave. Even if I understand it, I recognize that sometimes doing the right thing hurts.

>I think I know who anon is (which I am now pretty damn sure. fufufufufuf), and I'm correct I will say that they actually are a really good person and you two just got off on a really bad foot.

I've got a few suspicions myself and don't trust that persona given that personxs rather hypocritical and hateful broad generalizations of people not in their camp (which would include me), which they've been been engaging in for a literal decade at this point. Which is what I've always resented them for, and informs a big part of why I lack sympathy for them crying about receiving the same in turn. I'm sure at least four other people here engage in exactly that same behavior so I don't feel obligated to be sympathetic to them when they can't take it in turn.

>I would be more afraid of crossing the street on a daily basis, but I get what you're saying.

Yeah, and if I would be in an active shooter situation with someone who has like an automatic or semi automatic gun with a thousand rounds of ammo, pointing out how bad their aim was and that they could only hit 1% of the targets isn't going to make me any less vigilant in that situation.

>>14263
Yeah, China had some pretty draconic solutions to covid for a minute there. Which, while caused immeasurable suffering could be argued as to why they recovered faster than pretty much everyone else.
> And even if I understand why someone might feel the way they do, doesn't mean I will approve of their reasons for it.
I feel that it helps to look someone 'eye to eye'. Not everyone is going to agree with one another. There's going to be people that not only disagree with one another but will ultimately hate one another's guts, whether we're talking about individuals or groups of people. I'll give a personal example: I've made it pretty clear that I hate the black community. I can understand why black people in 2024 might think that they are still being oppressed, but the reality of the situation is that the only people who oppress black people these days are other black people; and they actually have more opportunities to prosper thanks to Affirmative Action.. Which was a mistake. That's my opinion and we can get into it sometime if you'd like.

>Captain Ahab archetype is. Like for instance, if a person would die of stubbornness refusing to do something humilating but necessary just to save face while hurting those who would be dependent on them doing that humiliating thing for their survival and well being, I would piss on their grave.
Honor is a powerful concept. That same pride that might cause someone to "Just save face" at the expense of others, is the very driving tool that has caused people to do many great and wonderful things; for both good and evil.

>Like how I might not have a whole hell of a lot of sympathy for a kid throwing a temper tantrum cause their parents didn't buy them a toy they really wanted even if I used to do that myself when I was 5 and understand the feeling.
I would feel sympathy for them, but what would trump that would be the understanding that if you were to cave in to the tantrum it would teach the child some really bad habits.

https://youtu.be/LoxsJtvcIHM?feature=shared&t=22
https://youtu.be/awy9_08Pj_8?feature=shared&t=200
For some, the shame of losing honor is something they have to live with, whereas death is a mercy and would piss on the grave of someone who would squander their honor for their own selfish reasons. An extreme example would be fighting to the death rather than facing a rape; even if facing that rape would save another soul as well. Some would argue that the rape is more fucked up than killing another person. Others would argue that killing another person is more fucked up than raping them. I believe it is a complicated situation that is contextual to culture and personal values. There is no right or wrong answer in that case. But I'm going off on a tangent.

>I've got a few suspicions myself and don't trust that persona given that personxs rather hypocritical and hateful broad generalizations of people not in their camp (which would include me), which they've been been engaging in for a literal decade at this point. Which is what I've always resented them for, and informs a big part of why I lack sympathy for them crying about receiving the same in turn. I'm sure at least four other people here engage in exactly that same behavior so I don't feel obligated to be sympathetic to them when they can't take it in turn.
What camp are you referring to? All I know is that the other anon is a good person. They can be a little stubborn but at the end of the day, they're actually a total sweetheart.

>Yeah, and if I would be in an active shooter situation with someone who has like an automatic or semi automatic gun with a thousand rounds of ammo, pointing out how bad their aim was and that they could only hit 1% of the targets isn't going to make me any less vigilant in that situation.
The attempt in that analogy would be more appropriate if the shooter had a banana in their hand and were screaming 'BANG BANG!' It isn't gonna happen, especially with the momentum of support people have been subscribing to. It's even been spreading inside of prisons.. Prisons.

https://youtu.be/0jdCG4ekiMc?feature=shared&t=178

Speaking of honor, this man saw the others dancing and was Possessed by the urge to show off

>>14264
>>14264
>I feel that it helps to look someone 'eye to eye'. Not everyone is going to agree with one another. There's going to be people that not only disagree with one another but will ultimately hate one another's guts, whether we're talking about individuals or groups of people.

It's not always possible to look at someone 'eye to eye' when their assumptions about you based on group affiliations would lead them to be unwilling to do the same in turn.

>I'll give a personal example: I've made it pretty clear that I hate the black community. I can understand why black people in 2024 might think that they are still being oppressed, but the reality of the situation is that the only people who oppress black people these days are other black people; and they actually have more opportunities to prosper thanks to Affirmative Action.. Which was a mistake.

Topic for a whole other thread but this argument has always come off to me like claiming murder can't happen because it's illegal.

Plus, given that no one's will can ultimately override anyone else's will, and one's success (or even survival) is always dependent on others will to buy what your selling or to decide you deserve a paycheck, then logically,  no one can claim their will or determination alone is the reason for prosperity, without also implicitly denying the agency of others.

>Honor is a powerful concept. That same pride that might cause someone to "Just save face" at the expense of others, is the very driving tool that has caused people to do many great and wonderful things; for both good and evil.

I Wasn't talking about Honor, I was talking about ego and pride, related concepts sure, but honor is more a matter of how one is perceived by others based on one's behaviors and choices while ego and pride is based on one's perception and valuing of themselves.

Eitherway, in my own hierarchy of moral priorities, I think there are absolutely things more important than pride ir honor. It's one of the things I ultimately admired about Nikita Kruschev, during the Cuban missile crisis, he did the 'dishonorable' and 'weak' thing of choosing to back down and withdraw sending nuclear missiles to Cuba, killing his political career within the soviet union. He did the humiliating thing and let the US win that game of chicken despite all the pressure from within the USSR, and may have prevented a nuclear war. That might have been a noble and honorable sacrifice on his part but he certainly lost face and was disgraced in that situation.

>For some, the shame of losing honor is something they have to live with, whereas death is a mercy and would piss on the grave of someone who would squander their honor for their own selfish reasons.

The symbolic meaning of one's actions are ultimately subjective, what might seem shameful and dishonorable to others on one level may not be so on another. It's easy to live with humiliation like that if one is willing to question or challenge why others would judge it as dishonorable. Again I point to the example of Nikita Krushchev, in the USSR he was treated like a dishonorable coward and would have had to live with that for the rest of his life. But on a broader scale of the world as a whole, he honorably stood up against the massive stupidity and reckless irresponsibility of machismo and bravado when dealing with weapons of mass destruction.

>What camp are you referring to? All I know is that the other anon is a good person. They can be a little stubborn but at the end of the day, they're actually a total sweetheart.

I'm talking about political alignment. Shitting on strawman leftist and hypocritical generalizations made from cherry-picked examples of leftist consistent with what ever the standard among the right-wing media ecosystem or /pol/ at any given time is something that has been happening here on /townhall/ for years now. It's not like my frustrations with people here and attempting to engage with people here comes from nothing.

And no one alone can be a good judge of anyone's character when everyone they interact with are reacting to them in turn, if someone likes you already or thinks you're already in their tribe then of course one would only see their goodside and not see their negatives, and vice versa for those in an outgroup or presumed 'enemy' camp who get to experience a person's bad side.

>>14264
>The attempt in that analogy would be more appropriate if the shooter had a banana in their hand and were screaming 'BANG BANG!' It isn't gonna happen, especially with the momentum of support people have been subscribing to. It's even been spreading inside of prisons.. Prisons.

I sometimes trust prisoners more than politicians really. I'm a true believer that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And even if that's not true, I also believe the corrupt and fearful tend to be absolutely ambitious (which tangentially, is the reason Trumpism seems so nonsensical to me, why take at face value anything said by someone who is asking to be the most powerful person in the world?)

>>14266
>Topic for a whole other thread but this argument has always come off to me like claiming murder can't happen because it's illegal.
If we're talking about cases of racism on a case-by-case basis, yeah it happens. Black people actually commit quite a number of hate crimes themselves. Just look at the statistics of hate crimes against asians and you'll find that blacks are disproportionately hostile towards them compared to any other race.
If we're talking on a systematic level, well, that just isn't the case. -- But you're right, this really is a different topic for a different thread so I'm going to concede for the moment.

>honor is more a matter of how one is perceived by others based on one's behaviors and choices while ego and pride is based on one's perception and valuing of themselves.
I would say they go hand in hand, really. Someone can absolutely feel as though their honor is lost even when there is no one around to watch. Honor is a part of integrity. Integrity is a part of honor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_NCvPbc0o
^I like the beginning of this. It's semi-related. Heh.
>But on a broader scale of the world as a whole, he honorably stood up against the massive stupidity and reckless irresponsibility of machismo and bravado when dealing with weapons of mass destruction.
Yeah, human values are subjective. Even the idea or morality is subjective. Some would argue that there are objective moral truths, but I think they are wrong. While killing an innocent for the sake of killing is considered evil, technically we as humans are the only ones who have determined that. It is evil to (almost) everyone on the planet and can be seen as deplorable and and worthy of punishment. If you look on a more natural, rustic, and primordial level the only law of the land is the laws of nature; might makes right. And might takes takes many, many different forms of power. Power is power.
>Picture related^
For good ole' Nikita, he could be seen as honorable for denouncing Stalin for his war crimes. To others he could be seen as a cowardly turncoat who went against the grain for his own personal gain. Bleeding heart ideals at the expense of precious gulag free labor. Or whatever people might have seen it as

>>14266
>And no one alone can be a good judge of anyone's character when everyone they interact with are reacting to them in turn, if someone likes you already or thinks you're already in their tribe then of course one would only see their goodside and not see their negatives, and vice versa for those in an outgroup or presumed 'enemy' camp who get to experience a person's bad side.
I can't speak for everyone, but my own circle of friends can be pretty quick to criticize and speak their own mind, as can I if needed. (Or really just want to.) Do I venerate my friends? Eh, sometimes a little. I mean we are friends for a reason. Do I ignore their negative qualities? No. I love them despite their flaws.

The same could be said about a tribe or affiliation with less of a personal ring to it. I know that not every category I fit into is perfect. I know that my own line of thinking isn't perfect. Perfection is a paradox because it is never obtainable.
>I sometimes trust prisoners more than politicians really.
Hah! I hear that. The prisoners (while typically survivalists who will lie, cheat, and steal) are on average more honest than a lot of politicians. -- Though if we are going to be fair about it: a lot of politicians should be prisoners with the hidden and not so hidden deeds they've done at other's expenses.


>It's not like my frustrations with people here and attempting to engage with people here comes from nothing.
Politics and serious biz tend to bring out the worst in people. So far, I haven't really seen anything too terrible from the people here; including yourself, and I've asked around. I don't know you personally, but you don't seem like some monster to me. You seem misunderstood and simply wish to be heard. I am a kindred spirit in that regard even if I do not agree with all of your perspectives; I am listening to them.

(Except that one time I tried to extend an olive branch between channels, and everyone started throwing rotten tomatoes at me for it. That was kind of shitty. The one thing I will say about ponyboards in general is that they can be kind of band wagon-like. That's why I like free thinkers. If someone happens to agree with the crowd; cool. But don't attack me just to look cool in front of your friends for internet clout. That's how people usually end up getting their feelings hurt and then I'm the bad guy.)

>black-on-black crime mentioned<

I actually really like how 'Minoriteam', the parodic cartoon series, personified all this with the rise of ◇ Balactus ◇. A fabled demigod who eats entire planets. As an entity who makes black-on-black crime become as exaggerated as possible, he tries to, like, basically destroy everything related to every race... just because he can.

Also, holy fuck, he was voiced by black superstar Michael Clarke Duncan of all people:

> https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0982320/

On topic... I'd say that, yes, bigoted hatred possessed by certain black people against not just other black people but a whole smorgasbord of other groups is a major social problem without an easy answer... it does matter... tough stuff...

>>14271
>a major social problem without an easy answer
We could be like El Salvador where they rounded up everyone with gang affiliations and tattoos and just threw them in jail without trail. Crime dropped like 90% over there.

We could round up all the black people and push them somewhere else.

>>14271
He looks so badass NGL

>>14267
>If we're talking on a systematic level, well, that just isn't the case. -- But you're right, this really is a different topic for a different thread so I'm going to concede for the moment.

From my personal experience coming from a white (formerly) upper-middle class family with a lawyer and aspiring republican politician for a dad, and knowing many of his other conservative friends, I can assure you that there has been a long history of legislation passed and sold to the public with rhetoric made in bad faith with one intention publicly justifying it and another intentioned expressed only behind closed doors. Like how one of the reasons we have struggled so long to get something like universal healthcare is because of the fear that it might make social mobility easier for black people, but of course, they'll only admit it to you when they think that, because you're white and of a similar class background, that you might already agree. And of course everyone is getting fucked over by that, that and other similar legislation with the effect of exacerbating social stratification and keeping wealth concentrated.

It's pretty much the reason I trust prisoners more than politicians. They rely on the public not being familiar with the law or what the logical end effect of a policy is in context of all other policies still being enacted, like all the local zoning laws contributing to our current affordable housing crisis all over the country

>If you look on a more natural, rustic, and primordial level the only law of the land is the laws of nature; might makes right. And might takes takes many, many different forms of power. Power is power.

I am familiar with that view and I've always thought of it as a little narrow. I mean, human beings are a social species evolved for inter-dependence, and we're born with brains so underdeveloped that we are 100% dependent on others for survival for quite a long period of our lives as compared to other animals that often reach adult status within a year or less. And we willfully live for our offspring off an innate drive to do so,. And even if, ultimately, it benefits or survival as a specicies as a whole to live interdependently with others and/or to be providers, being concious of that fact has no baring on if we have the natural drive to do so anyway. Sure, law of nature, might makes right etc etc, but that's not the whole picture.

And even if there is no such thing as objective morality, so what? I think most moral and ethical systems exist as an attempt to rationalize a the pro-social instinct to oneself in the contexxt of the natural internal struggle between a self-serving instinct and pro-social instinct anyway. Universal compassion is basically a humanly universal ideal reflected in the moral ideals of all the worlds oldest and most popular religious traditions (while they each lie about what the others believe regarding this). So why not just go with that flow? I will act on my instinct to provide and protect for others I can directly effect and respecting all other human beings drive for the same cause I never know who I may need to depend on in the future or who may need what I can provide. Tribalism may be humanly natural, but group identities aren't always permanent and in my life (especially with my experiences as an LGBT person) I never really know who will be in my in-group in the future.

>>14278
I must admit. You see the world quite differently from myself, and yet I am enjoying our conversation. I also like the texas cow avatar. It is fitting.
>Like how one of the reasons we have struggled so long to get something like universal healthcare is because of the fear that it might make social mobility easier for black people, but of course, they'll only admit it to you when they think that, because you're white and of a similar class background, that you might already agree.
Most of the people I've talked to who are against universal healthcare are against it for reasons that are pretty much every reasons except for "It'll help out the darkies!" And I've had some pretty racist friends in the past. Most of the reasons I've heard from those types of people is that they think it'll take away their ability to purchase more private healthcare, and that with universal government funded health care that they'll "End up stuck on a waiting list for a year just to get some cough medicine!"

The closest thing I've had to universal healthcare was the system they had for it in the military, and to be honest it was actually pretty nice. "I am sick." Coof coof "Uhh dude, go to medical." It was that simple. I think change like that scares people. I feel like if there are going to be two free services, health/dental and education should be them.
Prisoners and politicians: I feel like dealing with both are like dealing with demons vs devils in D&D. They're both gonna lie to you, but in distinctive ways.

>I am familiar with that view and I've always thought of it as a little narrow. I mean, human beings are a social species evolved for inter-dependence, and we're born with brains so underdeveloped that we are 100% dependent on others for survival for quite a long period of our lives as compared to other animals that often reach adult status within a year or less.

We're social and complex creatures, yes, but even within a social and complex creature the need to dominate and secure positions of power is written in our DNA. Look at Chimpanzees. Those things are arguably even more inclined towards violence and if you didn't know about them from a scientific point of view could be seen as hellspawn written straight out of myth and legend. They're incredibly social omnivores that rely on one another and yet follow the rules of "Might equals right," to a tee. Remember that the whole "Power equals power" speech is simply talking about your ability to control and manipulate the world around you; whether it's through sheer brute force or social interactions. (Whether you're simply trying to be charming, or have some sort of other social edge.) Humans have perfected the art of both.

>>14281

>I must admit. You see the world quite differently from myself, and yet I am enjoying our conversation.

Everyone has their own experiences that shape their worldview. No one has the whole picture. Certainly not myself nor anyone else here. Dogmatic conviction about one's worldview is not really rational.

>I also like the texas cow avatar. It is fitting.

I'm much more of a stereotypical central Texas urban/suburban dwelling geek than a cowgirl, I'm just playing up the fact Im from there when establishing the origin point of my experiences that shape my worldview (so far).

>Most of the people I've talked to who are against universal healthcare are against it for reasons that are pretty much every reasons except for "It'll help out the darkies!"

Most people who aren't wealthy white old-money southern elites wouldn't be aware of the racism involved in the decades long battle against universal healthcare. A lot of the rhetoric against it as you relate originated in rhetorical strategy cooked up in political think tanks who understand that you can't convince lower and middle class people to support securing the position of power against the threat of social mobility. Lower and middle class whites are generally a lot less racists than the white upper class in the south, who are inheriting the culture of the old southern plantation class that's been working for the past 160 years to maintain their status in the south after the Civil War beginning with things like the 'lost cause' narrative and lots of more explicit attempts to maintain a racial caste system via things like Jim Crow era segregation to less explicit things like policy positions that made social mobility harder for people who were already poor ( https://youtu.be/X_8E3ENrKrQ?si=FHEvxsZH0gZwuRkX )

>I think change like that scares people. I feel like if there are going to be two free services, health/dental and education should be them.

I totally agree. In fact I'd go on a related tangent that you can't really apply capitlaist economic principles to certain social services and resources. Medical care is characterized by inelastic demand, demand for a lot of medical products and services won't go down in situations when it's literally do or die. You can't expect someone trying not to die from diabetes complications to bargain and shop around for insulin when all manufacturers know that they can't really afford to go without it and die of hyperglycemia, so you can't rely on a market based solution to make it affordable since the supplier will always have enormous bargaining power over the consumer. This inelastic demand is ultimately why health insurance exist in the first place, and the effect that has is that healthcare pricing starts to resolve around 'insurance whales', people who have way more coverage than they need ... which in turn reinforces class structures cause you're more likely to fall into massive medical debt the less you can afford medical insurance. It's one of many reasons is so much more expensive to be poor in America than rich.

As for education that's another good example given that it's almost impossible to meaningfully quantify the success of education given the fact that people are all unique and their success in an educational setting is no guarantee of success in the real world when access to opportunities is largely beyond the control of any individual, especially when job markets and demand for skills can rapidly shift faster than it takes to educate a person, so how can anyone quantify the value of an education when the value of one's education can fluctuate so rapidly. But that's built on the assumption that the only legitimate justification for education is to build marketable work skills when there are a ton of other good reasons for people to get educated beyond just job skill training, which big businesses would oppose given how it would undermine a lot of their bargaining power against consumers. Like, making markets work as intended: the 'invisible hand' is the cumulative effect of all purchasing decisions made by all participants in a market, but it's reliability in rewarding the best products and service is dependent on the consumers ability to think critically and knowledgeablly about those decisions and not get conned in the process (this is why teaching financial literacy in public school is often opposed by Republicans in many red states, especially my home state). Education also, ideally, should propogate understanding of many different worldviews and broaden everyone's worldviews for the sake of social cohesion, but how can a market quantify the value of that?

I also have similar positions when it comes to ownership of land given how land is characterized by perfect inelastic supply.

>We're social and complex creatures, yes, but even within a social and complex creature the need to dominate and secure positions of power is written in our DNA. Look at Chimpanzees. Those things are arguably even more inclined towards violence and if you didn't know about them from a scientific point of view could be seen as hellspawn written straight out of myth and legend. They're incredibly social omnivores that rely on one another and yet follow the rules of "Might equals right," to a tee.

Tge thing about ecosystems, surviving and thriving within them, is that there is no absolutely optimal strategy. There is far more than just one way for a species to survive and thrive, and it depends on the characteristics of the ecosystem those species evolved in, which includes the survival strategies employed by other organisms in the same ecosystem. I mean, if we're talking about primates most closely related to humans genetically I could also point to bonobos as a contrast against chimpanzees, they're far less likely to engage in the kind of violent dominance of other groups and families of bonobos that chimps would with other chimpanzee communities and families. Bonobos are far more likely to engage in recreational sexual activity to create bonds between families and communities of bonobos. Both survival strategies work in the respective ecosystems both species evolved within.

As for humans the need to dominate is contextual, ultimately rooted in how scarce or abundant resources are within the context of the ecosystem that a culture evolved in. Like, take for example Japanese culture, even before it came under the influence of chinese culture, the prior native culture of Japan was still collectivist as a consequence of how the Japanese archipelago is both ideal for agriculture given it's disproportionately abundant water sources in the form of natural spring and patterns of rainfall, but also being in a place prone to natural disasters like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons, all of which require a very high degree of cooperation between people to survive.

Meanwhile in regions with a high degree of resource scarcity, the human instinct to fall back into small tribes of codependent individuals competing with other tribes of codependent individuals becomes dominant given that fact, regardless of if it's a natural fact if the ecosystem or an artificial state created by the structure of an economy. Hence why Arabic culture has an ancient history of tribalism and participation in international trade for survival given the resource scarcity of the Arabian peninsula. Or how impovrished subcultures of marginalized communities in the united states have a history of gangs and gang related violence given the effects of employment discrimination and artificial scarcity imposed on this as a consequence of that. Poverty cultures thus tend to naturally become quite cutthroat.

Both impulses are hardcoded in human DNA, but niether of them are the default for humanity.

>>14283
>I'm much more of a stereotypical central Texas urban/suburban dwelling geek than a cowgirl
I've only been to texas a handful of times. Houston, San Antonio, some small-little oil-rigging town, and Dallas. I did some disaster relief work out there for a while.
>wouldn't be aware of the racism involved in the decades long battle against universal healthcare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxEZ4QaAAvI
My friend and I were talking about this yesterday. I tend to think it's more of a class bias than a racial one; minorities just tend to be in the lower classes due to whatever reason or another.
I can't really speak too much on the South because I haven't lived out there. I just don't fall into the whole conspiracy that taxes are coded as anti-black. I know the government has actually done some pretty shady stuff like the release of crack into black neighborhoods but to say that so many fingers would be in a single pie and remaining stable is pretty ridiculous; double so to claim when most people in the south advocate for less taxes. (Which is a die if you do, die if you don't think when it comes to the 'support' of black people. Do you argue that taxes are ruining their pockets on a day-to-day basis, or that healthcare programs ect can't be funded without them? This is why I hate talking about racial issues because at the end of the day there's no pleasing those people. There's a reason black people are nicknamed "Gimmedat's")

>Insulin
When it comes to dental/medical, a lot of hospitals and pharmaceutical companies know what they're doing. They're preying on a lack of availability in labs and knowledge to the public, but that doesn't it make it right when the actual cost of making medicine such as insulin is pocket change compared to the profit they make by selling the stuff. Let me give you an example: I used to donate plasma and would get paid like 50 dollars a bottle, which was a pint of plasma; an entire pint. They would then turn around and flip that bottle for like $800-$1600 to pharmaceutical companies.  
>Free education
I also feel like teachers across america should be paid more and that public education need to be focused on both on a minor's level and adult's level. We need more teachers and better-quality teachers, but we also need to make teaching appealing. The current system we have in order to gain an education is predatory and immoral in my opinion.
>I also have similar positions when it comes to ownership of land given how land is characterized by perfect inelastic supply.
It's a complicated situation. I lean heavily more towards private ownership of land, but understand capitalism has its issues that makes the world very Cyberpunk/Shadowrun. On the other hand, I'll pass on commie shit.
>I mean, if we're talking about primates most closely related to humans genetically I could also point to bonobos as a contrast against chimpanzees, they're far less likely to engage in the kind of violent dominance of other groups and families of bonobos that chimps would with other chimpanzee communities and families.
Of course. Some animals (species, breed, race) are more prone to violence than others. People forget that aggression is a breedable and passable trait within animals. That's how certain breeds of designer dog are created not only in appearance but typical behaviors as well. Of course, aggression is also a learned trait in animals such as human beings as well, but for example: even if you raise a chimpanzee from birth, there is a huge chance it is going to eventually turn on its owner and rip their face off.. Literally. It's happened before with people who have been around them in a shocking number of cases. You can argue that the chimp didn't recognize their owner, or that they got jealous of another chimp, or whatever the case may be; but at the end of the day, the chimp's first thought was to go apeshit and mutilate a human being in the process.
>Japanese archipelago is both ideal for agriculture given it's disproportionately abundant water sources in the form of natural spring and patterns of rainfall, but also being in a place prone to natural disasters like volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons, all of which require a very high degree of cooperation between people to survive.
Japanese people were also known for their exceptional cruelty towards everyone else around them and were known by both the Chinese and Koreans as the island tribes of "Short Barbarians." But I get what you're saying; strife forces people to come together and trauma-bond out of necessity.