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Unfortunately, as of late, it seems that there's a lot of trouble going around, and, I've always thought this was the type of thing rule 1 existed to fix.
But, it seems rule 1 either doesn't mean what I thought it does, or simply isn't enforced as a rule.
If it's the first, what constitutes a rule 1 violation?
Would calling someone a jerk, saying they're cruel, or insinuating they're being manipulative for the purpose of hurting another be a violation of rule 1?
Would constant hostile accusatory remarks, such as "you're trying to get me in trouble", or "you just want to make me look dumb", not be a violation of rule 1?
If it's the latter, though, I think that needs to change. I'd say Rule 1 is a large part of why this place has been so pleasant. Making people be polite to one another helps to bring about common understanding and build friendships.
Constant shitflinging such as examples above only give scars and disdain towards other users.
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This is a fair an legitimate concern, and I think it stems from the subjective nature of what I believe is an intentionally nebulous rule>Rule 1. Please keep posts generally respectful towards others
I think originally we hoped that people would simply follow rule 1 naturally, and never stopped to truly consider "what if they don't?". I consider it a failing on our part as the staff that we do not have an immediate answer for this, and I appreciate you bringing it forward like this so that we can discuss what truly constitutes a rule 1 violation, and better define it for the future.
Don't feel too rushed on it. I understand it's a fairly complicated item.
I really think rule 1 is why this place has the culture it does. The sort of friendly atmosphere, anyway. You can't really make 'enemies' if you have to be polite. And, of course, friends are much easier to make, in the same way.
>>2658>Would calling saying they're cruel
Depends on if they are being cruel.>insinuating they're being manipulative for the purpose of hurting another
In my mind, no. Because the chances of them actually doing that are not zero. To say that this is an automatic violation of rule 1 would be to open a lot of people up to possible manipulation.>Would constant hostile accusatory remarks, such as "you're trying to get me in trouble", or "you just want to make me look dumb", not be a violation of rule 1?
Again, I would say no. Because the chances of those things being true are again, not zero. Sometimes people DO try to get others in trouble, they DO try to make others look dumb. Simply pointing out the possibility is not a violation of the rules.>Would calling someone a jerk
This is the only one of your criteria that has some gray area issues. It COULD be considered an insult, without context. But Society doesn't really have a good word for someone who is cruel, manipulates or tries to belittle others that DOESN'T sound like an insult without context. If you have a word one could use for these people that doesn't sound like an insult without context, I'd like to hear your suggestion.
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Regardless of if they are cruel or not, it is still insulting. it's not a civil thing to say to one another. Regardless of if somebody is actually cruel or not, which might not be the case.
I would suggest that assuming the absolute worst in somebody because there is not a 0% chance is pretty generally rude, and certainly uncivil. I would not consider, as an example, me calling you a pedophile, because there is a chance greater than 0% that you are one, to be respectful.
Or do you think it would be acceptable for me to go around the site saying "Manley is a pedophile"?
See above. Same response.
I'd recommend critiquing actions taken, rather than the individual. That'd be the best solution if you're to remain civil and respectful.
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Sometimes the simplest solution is the right solution, even if it doesn't seem like it.
I'm thinking maybe we should try this, if it shouldn't have already been being enforced anyway.
The only time that I have ever personally had a problem with politics on this chan, is when fights broke out.
How is it insulting to call someone cruel if they are being cruel?
"Manley is a pedophile" has no evidence behind it. You have no reason to be saying it EXCEPT to be insulting. However, if you actually had evidence that someone was a pedophile and you were trying to raise awareness of this fact, that would be a different situation.
It's an attack on one's character. Of course it's insulting.
You don't have evidence for the accusations you tend to make, though. Just insinuations and assumptions. Why couldn't I do the same, let's say, over your CMC posts?
I'd say that'd be quite thoroughly unfair, and as said, disrespectful, a thing for me to do. Wouldn't you?
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The new policy we've implemented concerning politics is directly inspired by your comments on Rule 1, Noonim.
Disrespect is rampant on the site in the singular place of politics, from our observations.
We haven't had Rule 1 appear in any other context, in any significant way.
There are occasional violations, of course. And, as always, we prefer to handle these issues privately.
This political issue has become too much work for our staff to handle.
The staff we've put together is already working overtime to address the daily 300 post political threads and fights.
And they are volunteers.
i myself, i'm awake at 5 AM, i'm at home by 8 PM, i'm in bed by 10. i haven't the life to handle the fighting that occurs in a 300 post thread.
We're looking into alternatives such as higher numbers of staff, policies, or community participation to help us enforce more precisely the terms of Rule 1.
i hope you will understand then that this new policy is in direct response to that need, but pinpointed at what is the biggest source of trouble.
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I can somewhat understand that logic, but, it still seems to me simply applying rule 1 in absolutely any capacity, at all, as opposed to what currently appears to be literally never, would fix most of this issue without limiting people who want to talk politics and don't have that problem.
I'm certain people would understand rule violations not being dealt with immediately, because of how busy the staff is. I'm perfectly fine with that. My trouble is more how threads are just locked, and no violations are addressed in any capacity whatsoever.
It depends on what that means, I guess.
If it's documentation for later rule enforcement, then yeah, that'd be great.
But the primary violators of rule 1 that I've seen don't seem to care about simple social pressure.
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What currently appears to be never is to some extent by design. We don't like to call out users, and as far as rele violations not being dealt with immediately...
the rule violations of that kind are always wrapped around political debates, always involve five to twelve reports from users on both sides, and always involve multiple references to past threads, or buried comments, in two hundred + post textwall filled threads.
This eases that, and makes the enforcement or Rule 1 for this particular issue, in which this arises, far easier, more public, more visible, and more effective. >>2697
...i hope so too. i'm still working on some ideas for that, Ella. like a neigh-borhood watch sort of thing c:
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Dealing with things privately like that, while understandable, is liable to cause users like myself to feel like if their reports are just ignored, and nothing is ever actually done.
if you don't want to reveal things into the public space, perhaps the answer is to tell the reporter what has been done about the violation that they had reported.
Transparency to the people making reports would, in my opinion, go a long way towards dealing with at least my own feelings of being sidelined, or otherwise not considered.
As to the issues of large threads,I can understand that being a problem, however, from what I understand, reports go to the post reported, do they not?
I understand context is important, however,a violation should be a violation. Regardless of the context. Context might suggest that both parties are guilty of being disrespectful towards one another, but, as an example, if one user calls another a jerk, that's disrespectful in its own right. Perhaps I'm being a bit callous, or just too literal with the rules, but, my stance is, a violation is a violation, regardless of why it was done.
As far as the political ban item goes, I just don't really see the logic in enforcing a new, rather difficult to understand rule on the people who already have a rule that exists and is easily understood, but at the very least isn't enforced as strictly as the new rule would be.
thorax and some other mods -myself included- are looking into reformatting the ban and warning systems to better favor preventing the harassment and insulting of users
trust me when i say it massively upsets me as someone who cares most about protecting others, but we don't have a concrete answer as to what Rule 1 is
Fair enough. I'd certainly like to add my thinking in that, then.
I'd consider "respectfulness" to essentially mean not insulting one another, being uncharitable or otherwise assuming the worst of others, being accusatory, or engaging in significant hostility.
>>2789>assuming the worst of others
i'm not sure how we'd punish something like that
acting hostile, yes, that's easily going to cause immense issues and needs examined, but most everyone makes bad observations and assumptions
same with being accusatory
i don't think accusing people of shit they didn't do is good
, but i don't see how we'd enforce that without going full-on debate forum level moderation, which is something we aren't capable of
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When I say assuming the worst in others, what I am talking about is saying that they are trying to get you banned, just trying to make you angry, saying they're racists, saying they're just trying to be cruel, etc.
I'm not talking about simple attitudes, or anything like that.
I'm talking about Manley's "it's more than 0%" attitude of accusing others of things they haven't done or aren't doing for his sectioned reasons.
this type of thing is 90% of my issue with talking to manly, and, if you can't do anything about it, I would really appreciate you guys rethinking the filtering system. Because, if that type of behavior is allowed, I really don't want to be subjected to such Behavior. I'd rather just simply filter him out, so I don't have to see that sort of nonsense.
Being somebody who has an extremely strong sense of justice, if there is one thing I absolutely despise, it's false accusations.
It's why I get so upset at Manley, as well as the staff for doing nothing about that sort of thing.
I understand Mooney has objections to that sort of system, saying it runs contrary to his ideals for the site and its culture, but, this type of thing is the main source of stress when it comes to the site for me at the moment.
I wouldn't think that it's something that would require debate style for moderation, as what I'm referring to is a bit more specific than that. It's describing hostile intent, where I have issue, rather than somebody simply saying, let's say, "you believe the Earth is flat" or similar.
>>2795>but i don't see how we'd enforce that without going full-on debate forum level moderation, which is something we aren't capable of>>2796
What I suggested in >>>/rules/12
was: "Don't make negative accusations about other people's intentions". Does that cover your concern, Noonim? I think that would be an easily enforceable standard. It would catch ad hominems
like "I know you're just trolling me", "you're not arguing in good faith", "Ahh, you're still stuck in Angry Jack mode. Explains a lot.", etc.
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To clarify, the stuff I'm talking is the examples given in OP. Those are things that have actually been said to me and others.
They aren't in any shape or form productive to any conversation, and only serve to attack others, make them out to be bad people.
Those are the type of things I don't want to keep getting thrown my way. It really sucks.
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Certainly would go a long way. I'm not sure it would capture everything, but it definitely would get the majority of things.
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We're not asking for logical fallacies.
We're asking for, as anon wonderfully put it actually, "Don't make negative accusations about other people's intentions"
As I've put in my OP with multiple examples, the issues I have are when people say you're just dong what you do to hurt them, or to try to get them banned, and so on.
These aren't some minor item, they're quite explicit in their meaning.
Nobody's asking for you to do debate-style moderation, as I had stated in >>2796
I just want a certain someone to stop constantly accusing me of extremely shitty things. That's it. Those accusations hurt a lot. I'm sure you'd feel the same way, if you got them every time you interacted with someone.
i think you may be asking a little much of the average person, here
if we start punishing people for making assumptions, i think most everyone would be in trouble/banned in short order
don't get me wrong, i was really
hurt by people making negative assumptions, to the extent it gave me and some of my sisters PTSD, but i can't see how we'd realistically enforce it>>2805
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It's not just assumptions, though.
It's particularly hostile and mean-spirited assumptions. Assumptions built to discredit and attack someone's character.
Things like "You're just saying that to hurt me", or "You're just trying to get me banned", or "You're just being cruel", and so on.
If it's really not something possible to enforce, you guys really need to reconsider the filter system.
If we can't keep such attacks out, the least we can do is give users the option to not see said attacks day in and day out.
Even if it still leaves those attacks visible to others, hurting your reputation, at the very least, you don't have to constantly take the harm such statements dish out.
i'll talk with staff about it
it's not that i disagree, just that it seems like it'd go downhill fast
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Maybe, but, do you think it'd be worse than the current state of constant fights and growing hatreds?
I'm willing to wager against it, since the staff for the most part seems to be careful when it comes to this sort of thing, anyway.
And, honestly, even if it does, something needs to be done.
I, at least, don't think I can keep dealing with this sort of thing. It really drains me, and, I can't really afford that any more. It's not healthy.
i think most users are fighting significantly less lately, after the political ban
it really sucks to have shitty things assumed of you, i get that, it's a pain i'm very familiar with
but as for your question? i think trying to enforce the policy you're suggesting would make things a lot worse, because it would make people in pain less able to express when they feel someone's being an ass to them
again, i love you, but i think you are expecting way too much of the average person and also the staff, myself included
assuming negative things about each other is -to be blunt- built into the foundation of human communication
we quickly profile each other, and it blows, but i don't think we have the resources to fix that
negative assumptions are the biggest reason i hated discourse on this site, too, but i'm trying to be realistic
if we can work out a worst-case scenario example of how this would go, and work from there, i think the problems would be apparent
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I don't think that's accurate. I have seen the same stuff thrown around, it's just we haven't had a big argument which made a certain user do that again.> because it would make people in pain less able to express when they feel someone's being an ass to them
I don't consider this a bad thing, really. At least, if you want to maintain a respectful or civil site, overall. Which, I thought, was the point of rule 1.
If someone's being an ass, report them. Otherwise, there's absolutely no reason to be a dick back.
That's how we get massive fights. Completely unproductive.>>2827
There is literally only one poster I have an issue with when it comes to this problem, so I don't think I could agree that this is something everyone does.
If it was something everyone does, surely I'd have more than one poster who does it.
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If this is specifically about a single poster, it may be more productive to discuss it with them than enact a rules change that we may be unable to deliver on.
If you tell me which poster, I can try to discuss it with them, which may be more immediately productive.
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I have many times tried to talk to Manley about this.
It has done nothing.
I'm doubtful you can get him to change his behavior, if nobody else has after ages of this shit, but, hey, you're welcome to try.
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It's certainly worth a shot, don't you think?
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Like I said; If you want to, go for it.
I've tried for a very long time now.
Usually, when I give him an argument to attempt to apply to empathy, ala >>2690
, it just gets ignored, and the behavior continues as normal with the exact same justification we see >>2680
Apparently, if there's a >0% chance someone is something, it's totally justified to call them that, according to him.
You've never tried to talk to me about anything without getting pissed and telling me to "fuck off". You always escalate things and get angry.
Also, that was a completely different situation and context where I said that "not zero" stuff. I was saying that it's not an insult to say someone is intentionally being cruel to you unless you can prove that they aren't being cruel on purpose. Which you can't, because that's impossible. Quit trying to twist my words to make me out into a bad person. Isn't that exactly what you're accusing me of?
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Nah, dude. That's just flat out untrue. I can't tell you how many times I've been trying to get you to understand this shit. Hell, I did it in this thread, here.>Also, that was a completely different situation and context where I said that "not zero" stuff.
You said it right >>2680>"In my mind, no. Because the chances of them actually doing that are not zero."
The context doesn't change this.
And it's still insulting and hurtful, regardless. Especially given that the thing we're talking about isn't even you saying they were being
cruel, but rather that they, were
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>>2841> Isn't that exactly what you're accusing me of?
What I am accusing you of is doing what you've done in this post here.
Saying things like "Quit trying to twist my words to make me out into a bad person" , which are just a thoroughly insulting assumption of someone's intent, and something I thoroughly don't appreciate.
I do not believe I've made any assumptions of your intention. I've not said "Manley only posts things like that because he enjoys hurting me". I've not sat here, and said "He only disagrees with me because he wants to make me look bad". These are, however, things you have
My critiques are of the actions
you've made, not some deeper intention I've no way of getting.
What I accuse you of is what you have done
, and we can prove you've done. Mostly by pointing to this post here, actually.
We've read and heard your complaints about Manley's harassment, and have now taken the punitive action we deem appropriate. Thank you for your patience and understanding.
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Woah, one certainly misses quite a bit when they don't regularly visit the other boards.>>2796
Instead of filtering a user in general I wonder if there would be a way to hide or filter specific posts like we can now for whole threads.
Feel like this thread is relevant once again, so I'm going to bump it.
Since the whole "filter user" item is appearing to be tossed out, I think this discussion evidently needs to continue, as it's clear at the moment, staff doesn't do anything for Rule 1 violations.
It seems to me like we've run into the exact same problem I had pointed out >>2796
, with the exact same desire for "Well, if you aren't going to do anything about rule violations, at least give users the ability to avoid these things".
Unfortunately, despite supposedly having the problems raised in this thread addressed, it seems now, they're repeating once again.
It seems like the complaint never actually got solved, and a temporary patch was thrown on.
This site is honestly starting to become one of the bigger stress factors in my life at this point. Maybe that's a stupid thing to stress over, but, honestly, these are the few places I can really socialize with others. So, for me, it's a little more hung on to than it probably should be. It's probably part of why I tend to get so firey on conversations around this sort of thing. In any case, I'm not really sure what to do. The whole "ignore it on your own" has never been something I am able to do, anywhere. Not even in the real world, as it were. I've gotten in huge arguments with managers who've had a bad day or just didn't look in to something and blamed me for what I never did, usually with quite disastrous effect. So, being told to just "ignore" the problem doesn't seem viable to me. Certainly, I've tried to before, and, I never really could.
At this point, I just don't really know what to do any more. I don't know if it's healthy for me to stick around here, or if I should cut this site out of my life, in the same way I did things like Twitter, or Ponychan. Though, I'm not so great at staying consistent on that, either, unfortunately. So now and again the stress there'll seep back in.
At the end of the day, you should have rules in place to solve this issue. People aren't supposed to insult eachother on the site. But, for some reason, when a problem arises, it's jammed on to my feet. I'm told it's not the staff's job to fix my hangups. But, isn't it the staff's job to enforce the rules? Isn't that the whole point of having these rules?
If we're expected to just sort things out, person to person, why do you guys do anything? Why do we have rules?
On an unrelated note, for some reason, trying to make this reply with an image would not go through. Dunno if it's an issue with the age of the thread, or what, but, something to note.
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If the stress of a website gives you stress I think you should leave the website. Rather than the whole of the website catering to you.
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Well, there's a swing. Want to clarify what you mean?
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That is quite unfortunate. Would you care to explain why?
Do you think such a particular issue could be benefited or at least solved in part buy a filter system?
This assumes your particular issue is not something that could be directly enforced by ruling, as a specific violation of the rules, of course.
If it is something that you believe could be, then, I would suggest we are in the same boat. At the end of the day, what I want is for the staff to actually enforce the rules on this website. Or, failing that, it would be nice if we were given the option just want our own problems out.
Personally, I am quite lucky, as chain was kind enough to provide a means to solve that particular issue, in spite of the staff's objections to implementing such an option on the website itself.
I think that the script is relatively simple to modify for your own use, at least if I am understanding the code correctly. I am a bit of a novice when it comes to this type of thing, but, I believe if you replace the name already present in the script provided with my own, it would, theoretically anyway, solve your particular issue.
Not 100%, admittedly. There are a few issues. Ops will still be visible, as well as automatically updated threads. It would be nicer for an on-site solution that'd get around this, but, as said, it seems they are not fond of the concept of filtering.
I will have to double-check, but I don't believe so.
Should be simple enough to test when I get home.
I just double-checked (on >>>/test/
) and it's working on my machine (using Chrome 74 with Tampermonkey). It should filter out any name containing the string "Manley". (It turns out the "
" is redundant and can be removed.) If it doesn't please let me know.>>4271>if you replace the name already present in the script provided with my own, it would
Yup. And you can also change it by manually setting the value of
at the debug console --- this takes priority over the name hardcoded in the script.
I think I found the problem. Or, at least, for whatever reason, doing this solved it.
For whatever reason ,the old version didn't update, but the new one where you've solved the issue around "$" does perfectly fine.
No idea why.
Maybe I accidentally something, or it just doesn't like Brave.
Works now, either way.
I don't want to sound rude, or insensitive, or anything, but, it's really hard to give any kind of consideration to people who make single, short, vague statements posted anonymously.
There is unfortunately nothing in iver these posts that I can really use to improve or self-reflect in any kind of capacity.
I probably should just ignore them, but, he's kind of things have a nasty habit of nagging at the back of my head for ages. That's why I'm commenting now, after all. The annoying thing is, with stuff like this, there's never any actual solution, outside of waiting for the feeling to fade away. Like, what else could I do with these, except for literally just disappear? The only way I could improve either of your issues, with the information I've been provided, is literally just to leave the site.
I'm probably being overly sensitive here, but, like I said, it's something of a significant itch, so to speak.
Sorry, I had fully intended to come back and elaborate, but this has been a particularly busy and exhausting week for me. To be honest, I am thinking is why I made my post at all. Normally I'd never post something so passive aggressive but I think I was just irritable in my exhaustion and honestly I would like to apologize for letting that get to me and saying something like that to begin with.
That said, I guess now I've already gone ahead and said it, so the least I can do is try to explain. I understand the impulse to want to take criticism as a chance to improve and the frustration of not finding specifics in order to do that, I've got similar inclinations so i get that, and again sorry for causing the anxiety over that fact, it was inconsiderate of me.
However I dont think Im capable of actually giving you that, my frustrations with you are in no way personal, in fact this may be the first time Ive directly spoken to you. Mostly I am a lurker, and I have just found that whenever i encounter you in a thread, its an argument of some sort and is going one and on bullheadedly. I think the only thing I could offer as a change to not cause people that discomfort I feel was already offered to you by Mondo, but you told him you were not capable of simply letting things go or not commenting on them, so Im uncertain what else I'd even suggest. I just personally find you abrasive and maybe theres a chance thats nothing to do with you and everything to do with me, but it does leave me wondering why I keep coming back as you arent the only user Ive started to feel this way about. Again its nothing personal and I should never have said anything. Sorry about that
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That's no problem. I completely understand. I've been having a fairly hectic chunk of days, myself.
Don't worry too much about anything said, either. The only reason it really bothered me is that there wasn't quite enough to it for me to work off of. I really do appreciate honest critique, as it lets me self-reflect to a large degree. Just has a habit of throwing me off a little bit when there's not anything I can latch onto.
Fortunately, I think your particular issue is likely going to be or less solved. Though that does assume I don't get into arguments with anybody else. But, so far, I haven't had that particular issue with anybody else.
So, that should be fewer arguments from me. at the very least, I think I can say with relative certainty that there's not going to be encounters that would end up with such vitriol.
Although, to be quite honest with you, I suspect it'll also have me just post lesson general. I don't really like the usual social "hello, let's hang out" types of threats that seem largely prevalent here. I need something to latch onto, in order to start a conversation. It's hard for me to kind of force my way in, without something to use as an excuse of sorts
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>>4249>these are the few places I can really socialize with others
Oh, BTW, you can also visit Iara's