No.7[Last 50 Posts]
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Concerning Christmas Truce initiative.
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I did not know the political discussion had become an important issue on the site.
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hi hispers <3
less the discussion, and more the fighting, has become truly intolerable for a lot of users :c
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Thank you guys.
I'm sorry it even got to this point.
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Personally I feel like it's been a long time coming, but it is a shame that it had to come so far.
But let's hope the results of this experiment will turn out to be positive.
I think it would be a shame to continue curtail political discussion after the Christmas break. I enjoy high-quality political debate, and I think we can easily have it here. I've seen Boat, Noonim, and others engage in high-quality debate on /ef/.
The problem we have with political threads is low-quality arguing. I think a lot of acrimony can be avoided by adopting a new politics rule like "Don't make negative accusations about other people's intentions". Saying things like "I know you're just trolling me" or "Republicans don't care about poor people" do nothing to contribute positively to a thread.
I think you're seriously missing the reason for these fights. You can discuss politics without these problems. I know, I've done it countless times, here and in other places.
The problem here has nothing to do with politics.
The problem here is the abandonment of Rule 1, plain and simple.
People can discuss politics in respectful manners. The problem here is, the foundational rule for this site and the reason for it's pleasant culture, Rule 1 "Please keep posts generally respectful towards others" is not enforced.
I've made a thread on this issue as it happens.http://ponyville.us/canterlot/res/2658.html
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This guy gets it. Alternatively, rather than add a rule, enforce rule 1.
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>"but... frankly, for the rest of us, it will be. i'm not going to speak here for the staff, or anyone else but me, but you know... i'm extremely sick of the way the political discussion on the site has become so disrespectful. Disrespectful of each side, disrespectful to other posters, and thereby, also disrespectful to me, and to the site."
You even mention the disrespectful aspect, yourself.
We have a rule for this already.
If it's disrespectful, it's a violation of rule 1; "Please keep posts generally respectful towards others"
It seems to me this is a simple fix: enforce rule 1
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Now the politics are temporarily banned until Christmas
So What's next?
Like I said in the previous thread before was locked
Like lately there aren't threads like to gather the community to make Ponyvile super friendly and super united
I won't do nothing, until I see others put their grain of salt in the aspect of making Ponyville united with Friendship and Threads.
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i would agree with you noonim, that disrespect is a large part of it. But that disrespect is limited to the political sphere.
i absolutely believe political discussions can still be had. But political fights, they cannot be. If we implement bans during this time, rule 1 will be involved.
Although not cited directly, as you say, respect is an aspect: Rule 1 is a major part of this decision.
And this is our way of enforcing Rule 1, as well as our other rules, in a comprehensive manner. >>18
honestly, einhorn, it is my sincere hope that nothing is next on the block.
you know me very well: i do not like restricting. Look at the front page now - even before this announcement, outside of political threads, people have been super friendly, haven't they?
this is our attempt to curtail the advancement of a few, who negatively impact the enjoyment of many.
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Before I would like to ask you if you can erease my thread >>874499
because I don't remember the password.
Thanks >outside of political threads, people have been super friendly, haven't they?
Maybe but like there aren't interesting threads.
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as they say, you can always make the content you want to see!
Politics aren't banned, but political debates absolutely are. It might be a thin line!
What i can tell you, Einhorn, is that you've -never- been an issue for the staff, and your political posts have always been totally safe, rule wise.
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Are you sure? I'll do it if you really want to. I'm just surprised.
To clarify here, what I mean is, warn or ban users who violate rule 1.
Where they violate rule one should be irrelevant near as I can tell.
The fact that they do should be all that is required to enforce rule 1.
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We already do enforce Rule 1, but maybe not exactly how you like it.
And we do 90% of our enforcement privately. one on one, or by hidden warnings. >>24>>23
Users are -already- warned and banned for violating Rule 1. It's just not always public.
And we don't see any reason to extremely escalate Rule 1, when this is the only place where Rule 1 requires escalation. Minimize the scope, to where its needed, or else bystanders are affected.
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Yes like I have a bad taste.
I don't tolerate when people make fun of me in my back and use things I create or do just to mock me.
I find it disgusting, pathetic and only will make me angry If I see my thread that was used as a mock on me.
Even I know the staff deal the problem but I would like my thread being erased too.
Besides my threads are lame so it will be the best.>>21
I'm glad to read I'm not an issues
Ah. That private way of dealing with things is probably the cause of a lot of user unrest on this issue, then.
It appears, from what I had seen, as though nothing at all is ever done with my reports, whenever I have made them, and the behavior simply continues to other threads, later on.
Perhaps, then, transparent on rule 1 is more an answer. As it is, I find myself feeling increasingly stressed and discontent due to its current application, and I do not believe I am the only one.
If you're going to be more strict when it comes to politics, though, why not simply be more strict about respectful conduct?
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...i liked your thread, Einhorn. was someone picking on you? i happen to think the thread was cool, even.>>28
Transparent Rule 1 has its pros and cons, and earlier on in the site's history, before you came around Noonim, we ran into a bit of trouble being too public with how we handle things.>If you're going to be more strict when it comes to politics, though, why not simply be more strict about respectful conduct?
Because any government interference comes at a cost to society; in other words, don't govern things that don't need it.
We can raise the bar for respectful conduct, but no place else needs that raising of the bar. For politics, raising the bar is fine and all, but it's still a lot of work to do that because of the nature of political debates.
Better to fashion a more pinpoint, targeted policy, then to use a flat, blunt instrument, so to speak.
It's, at least in my opinion, the best way to go about addressing the issue of political fighting.
no other places require a tighter stands, because no other places have disrespectful content, as a general rule.
it seems to me like saying we need a law specific for, let's say, murders in libraries, because for whatever reason, they don't occur outside of libraries for you.
Why not simply arrest murderers, regardless of where they happened?
Essentially, what I am asking here is, why would this actually require tightening real one, as opposed to simply enforcing rule 1.
From my perspective, it isn't using a precise tool, it's ignoring the screwdriver in favor of replacing the wall.
I think overall the issue here is really more of a mischaracterization of the problem in the first place.
It isn't an issue of politics, at all. Which is why I have been able to have arguments with countless people, without having this issue.
I've been trying to avoid just naming names here, but, well, for me at least, it's been one single specific user this entire time that has caused any troubles with me. It's been one guy who's made accusational remarks, who's been incredibly disrespectful, who's constant personal attacks frankly seemed to be completely ignored from my perspective, to the point of snapping rather harshly at scootaloo a bit ago.
I really I think getting one user, bluntly put, to actually abide by rule one, would actually solve this issue as a flat rule.
especially considering that he's already had a political band, and absolutely nothing has ever come up from it.
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this policy is less like enforcing a rule for murders and libraries, and more like putting metal detectors in courthouses and airports, but not in many other places
the metal detectors are useful, because those places are more vulnerable, and it saves a lot of expense, effort, and heartache.
I would compare it more to the TSA, myself. That's how I end up feeling about it, at least. It seems to be a significant inconvenience on users, where it's largely unneeded. or at least, it seems to be, as far as I can tell, given what I had read on the rule.
After all it is a rather significant limitation on musers, near as I can tell, simply because some users, or really user, cannot abide by rule one.
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IU can't complain about anything news/media related, if I feel like it?
What if I slip^this in a conversational thread?
And like with sex, how do you discern politics from other discussions really?
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it's a significant limitation on a few users, who love their politics.
in the same way the TSA is a limitation on those who use the airpot.
It's a significant inconvenience on a very small, select group of users.
Which seems like it works, to me.>>34
you can complain, absolutely. but don't start political debates, in this time period.
Artee: none of your posts so far have caused us to respond to you. If you continued to post, exactly as you have been, you'd not run into any trouble with these policies.
You could change nothing, and be fine.
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I once made a thread to discuss autism, which got sacked after people complained they felt offended.
I make plenty of political remarks about things and oit will be hard to weed them out because people would not complain about me.
Last year I made a thread on hazing and nowadays, for example, this subject is again super involved.
I complained about Marakesh not too long ago.
And I am aching sometime to bitch about all the criminals getting away with most vile crimes.
I don't always post politics and if cornered will rather run away and hide, but I would very much bring things up.
Incidentally, the way you keep responding to people with rightful worries, saying because their post history they should be fine, doesn't really seem to address the actual concern. The problem is potentially raising up controversial topics, if I am understanding them correctly.
I'm sure many year post without bringing up controversial topics for the majority of their posts. That doesn't mean that they won't, have nots, or do not have reason to fear that they might, bringing up a controversial topic that might lead them into trouble. Especially given the rather harsh enforcement of this particular policy.
which, funnily enough, makes a TSA example a little bit more apt. But, that's a tad besides the point.
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And you definitely can, Artee.>>38
If they haven't caused trouble before, it's likely they won't in the future. If they do, there's a first warning system in the new policy.
It's okay to discuss political topics. It's not okay to fight over them. And some will be watched more carefully than others.
Makes it sounds like a kind of passive aggressive sort of "if we think you are a problem you are not allowed to talk about things, but we also don't actually want to say that directly" type of deal.
it just seems to make the rule even more pointless to me, as you are basically saying, the rule isn't actually something that's going to be enforced, unless you are what is deemed by the staff to be a problem poster. In which case, different rules than those which normally apply to users apply to you. Which, of course, I don't really think is fair to begin with, but moreover, makes the whole Fiasco pointless.
Why not be direct.
While I do dislike, as mentioned, treating users differently from one another, I still vastly prefer honesty over underhandedness. And, unfortunately, this is starting to really read like underhandedness to me.
I don't think it would be fair on the truce.
Let's see hoxw things go, though.
Some folks need to learn to take a joke though.
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it's never that black and white, but needless to say, after so many explosive fights, there are frankly people we trust less to be civil. >>43
Just be civil, and things will be okay. >>44>>42
Totally understandable. Frankly though, it hasn't done much good: what would public messages do, if nothing changes when private messages haven't done anything?
this present initiative is more frontloaded, and better for it.
Isn't that the point of rule 1? This isn't really an answer to doing it in an indirect manner, however.
If private messages have not changed anything, why have you not resorted to bans? >"Third Degree offenses are the least serious, and shall be met with multiple warnings, only to be escalated if the behavior immediately continues, or if the behavior occurs multiple times from the same user over a reasonable period of time, or if the behavior causes enough disturbance on site to warrant substantial staff attention"
Seems that this would give you power to do such with the problem user.
Not sure what you mean by "frontloaded". It seems to be sawing off an arm to spite the hand.
Yeah, instead of thinking that the mod team simply doesn't bother to give out warnings in most cases, I'm now thinking that the warnings they do give out have done little to get rid of the problem. I guess that's a bit better? Now I at least know for sure that the staff takes action against rule breaking, even if that action doesn't accomplish much.
I still think that more visible mod action would help show the users that the mods care, and that is very valuable. Just a single reply in a thread stating that warnings have been given out would be better than nothing.
I also think that this new initiative is a great idea though. I'm looking forward to seeing what effect it will have on the problem
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My stance is you shouldn't scold users openly, but there's not really good reason not to directly state when a rule has been violated.
But couldn't you simply apply rule one to people calling others cruel, jerks, or pushing negative assumptions of their character about?
It's just seems to me that there are clear violations already being made in these threads, that under rule 1, should already have a reasonable response.>>58
But, given that this seems to be mainly one single users issue, wouldn't it be easier not to impede on everybody else's ability to discuss politics freely?
Considering that this is only an issue with one single person's inability to be civil or respectful, why not simply take care of that one individual, as opposed to restricting everybody's capacity to discuss what they would like to discuss.
Well, then I'd suggest they need to look more deeply into these threads. As, it's always one user involved every single time, and every single time oh, there is this issue of a rule one violation.
I'm not sure if there is some specific reason they don't want to get rid of the guy, but, I'm going to try to make a proper document of every instance where this stuff happens, and hopefully that would force the hand, make them actually do something practical about it.
My problem is, I've had plenty of discussions on controversial topics, which haven't
devolved into angry shouting matches. I've had discussions with plenty of people who have radically dfferent ideals and principles, without issue.
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People aren't pissed off because you don't want them to talk about "politics," people just don't feel welcome here because this reaction indicates you would rather keep an atmosphere of fake solidarity than listen to people. People don't want to post somewhere where people can say grossly ignorant things and have it be shrugged off, but when that viewpoint is questioned, suddenly have it be a "political debate." The only reason it devolves into what you call fighting or arguing is because people aren't willing to sit back and be insulted.
To be honest Moony is a cool guy and a decent friend so I don't really bother bringing it up out of not wanting to be a dick, but if this is the route you all wanna take, I, and i'm sure at least a few others, can't say we're sure we have a place to belong here. But I guess it's more important to you all to keep an air of getting along than saying "hey, that's a shitty thing to say, don't air your offensive views." That's fair, just know it's artificial and not real.
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and I should be clear, I do not care if people agree with the same things I do or not. But the simple truth is, people don't walk around here saying they hate the hard right or that people who believe in creationism are crazy people. But people on this site do walk around saying gay people are degenerates who will sleep with anything, or that gay people are too vocal about being gay. That's not hyperbole, they're verbatim quotes. Don't try and kid yourselves that you don't know why people are annoyed reading this stuff. It's not the people calling it out who are the problem, it's the people sayin it.
end of the day though, like I say, waste of time saying this. pic related
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No, people care too much. Which caused all this.
You were a very large part of the problem in the recent thread about being kind-hearted
You were exactly as vicious as the people you are angry with
As I believe was said to you in the /pony/ thread, I just don't see that occur here. Maybe I'm just not around when those things happen.
Would've thought they're already against the rules, anyway.
Same. Haven't yet seen one, though. Part of why I really want more transparency when it comes to rule 1.
As is, I end up with the vibe that my issues are being ignored.
Which isn't really productive, of course.
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sorry, I would never want to ruin the atmosphere. What are people supposed to do? Be quiet so as not to rock the boat? I posted maybe three times at most before you all locked the thread, so calling me a large problem is kind of funny when two in particular argued back and forth in it over the course of about 100 posts. >>75
I should be clear that it's not a huge majority of the site, but it is a quite vocal part of it, and they are continuously encouraged by this weird desire to have a harmonious ambience above all else because nothing ever happens to them. The moderation team just lock the thread and basically say "don't do it again" and then the member just does it again the next day. It's like you would all rather nobody talk about the event and pretend nothing happened rather than just say "hey, don't say dumb shit." The funny thing is that I don't have a problem with difference of opinion to be honest, that's not my problem; if some dude on this site thinks gay people all have AIDS and will hump anything that moves, that isn't gonna ruin my day. But it's the fact that if someone gets pissed off by that
and responds, they will censor disagreement immediately, but not give any thought for why disagreement began in the first place. Again I am trying very hard not to call out individuals for the sake of not causing you more grief, but believe that they exist here prominently.>>71
the message sent is that it is
okay when the people who say it don't get banned or stopped, while the moderators delete replies for being too reactionary. sorry but that's the truth>>69
well like I said dude if the attitude on this site is that it's okay as long as nobody is being angry, then people don't want to be here. I for one aint sitting here and watching people have discussions about why people of my orientation are perverts while you ban a post for saying the word "Fuck"; but then again, that's why I only lurk this site in the first place rather than being active in it.
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there's no list, sailboat. there's the spirit of the rule.
Going to have to bump anon's suggestion, as it'd solve major problems I have currently.
I think it could easily be added to Rule 1, though, myself.
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i respect both you and anon's suggestion, but this is going to be a hard no.
The issue isn't the rule. It's in the spirit of the rule. A new rule will only mean current incivility shall extend itself either around the rule or right up to it.
Moving the goalposts won't change anything.
Ponyville is a pony site for pony fans. Not for politics. The right to have political debate here is a privilege, and that privilege has been pushed to and past it's limits for far too long
>>83>i respect both you and anon's suggestion, but this is going to be a hard no.
Hmm, I dunno what you're saying "no" to, because you guys did exactly what Noonim and I have been asking for in >>>/canterlot/2869
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If so, then perhaps i have misunderstood: what you are asking for then, we have already been doing. i did not interpret your meaning in that way.
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The truce has ended, let the games commence!!
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So, just my opinion, sooner or later your going to have to get ban happy. Chans as a rule are just volitale anymore, is what it is. Sad thing i've always noticed about the pony fandom, it attracts the mentally ill. People hate the weak, the poor and the outcasts, this fandom attracts them. For those who remember people like swiper? Enough said.
Just an idea, consider making this place a closed forumn of sorts, make it by invitation only and don't hesitate to suspend or ban those who don't follow the rules. Downside of anon chan culture, you attract everyone, the decient and not so decient alike.
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Incivility wouldn't be an issue if the rules are enforced, as that is straight up the point of rule 1.
And I'd go as far as to say we're seeing that now, on /pony/. There's been a few threads of controversial topics that are perfectly fine. >>85
My suggestion was to either apply rule 1 when it comes to hostile assumptions, ala items like, let's say, "Mooney is just being cruel", or "Mooney is just saying that to make me look stupid", and so on. Though, it seemed that this wasn't going to be a rule 1 violation, at least going by my thread discussing the matter, so, I had bumped Anon's suggestion for the same concept only specific.
Though his rule was only for politicis, I'd prefer it was everywhere.
Regardless, it seems now, this is a rule violation, so, I'm happy enough as is.