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 No.7625

File: 1783756477935.png (934.06 KB, 1280x914, 640:457, hm.png) ImgOps Google

>>>/pony/1208919
I don't blame you for not believing me. I didn't expect you to.

Regardless, I'd like to put actions to the words, but I can't just ban Andrea because you say I should. There's been no reports regarding her recently, she has not made any trouble that I can see in that thread beyond the one post we both mentioned, and there's no obvious violations anywhere in recent threads on the site.

It's been brought to my attention that she will often post anonymously, but that just makes her posts harder to spot for people who don't regularly engage with her, such as myself. If you see something I don't, feel free to submit a report so I can find it more easily, but I'm not banning her now for a week old offense either.

New documentation has been drafted for keeping track of problematic posters, and it's honestly insane none of us thought of this sooner.

Is there anything you would do differently if you were in my position? You've stuck around for quite a while for somebody who so passionately disagrees with every decision the staff has ever made. I want to hear your actual thoughts on the matter, not just a list of grievances about how incompetent we all are. You've made a lot of good points over the years, lost beneath a torrent of bile and vitriol, and I'd like to hear some of them again. If I had recommended you to Moony as a mod way back when you first made your voice known , what would you have done differently over the years?

This discussion is open to other users as well, though we will be banning suspected bad faith actors, please ensure your contributions do not appear malicious or incendiary.

 No.7626

NTA but..

>I can't just ban Andrea because you say I should.
Breaking the rules literally as this post was written is a good reason.
>bad faith actors
A new word for "People we just don't like" but sure. I do want to add that helicoptering isn't helping. It just makes  things worse. It just provides an environment where people feel nepotism and personal relationships are held higher in regard. If you wanna do that then sure.

 No.7627

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>>7626
>helicoptering
>nepotism
well it's not something I try to do, but if that's what's perceived then I'll have to pay special attention to not doing that. Thank you for saying something

 No.7628

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>>7625
Took your suggestion and went through and put in five reports for the posts I saw that directly violated the rules, occured multiple times, and all happened recently within this month.
There's your 'recent violations'.

Though calling someone a "lair" and a "worthless little narcissist" certainly strikes me as a rule 1 violation regardless.

>Is there anything you would do differently if you were in my position?
Enforce the rules evenly. I'm not going to bat too much an eye at the guy you gave the boot for posting 'trollishly' or what have you, even if I think it's a mite silly.
But when you have someone fragrantly violating the rules, it just looks bad when you ignore it in favor of slapping that 'trollish' poster.

> You've stuck around for quite a while for somebody who so passionately disagrees with every decision the staff has ever made.
I haven't really. I just come by now and again. It's a place I come back to 'cause sometimes there's interesting posts. It's a place I used to frequent, but, as I said, this is a long-running issue.

> If I had recommended you to Moony as a mod way back when you first made your voice known , what would you have done differently over the years?
Honestly, not a lot beyond enforce the rules as they're writ with a message likely with an explanation. But that's because I don't like to step on toes.

Here's the 'big three' if I was in charge, if it'll help.
Clear cut rules. You guys already have that, so honestly, you're doing good there.
Clear cut standards for the application of rules. This is the one that's been a struggle. That's probably the big one to focus on.
Transparency; Goes a huge way in explaining thought processes and rationale. You gotta handle it very, very carefully, to be fair, as you don't want to be 'shaming' folk. But at the same time, it's a vital step in keeping trust.

Oh, and I guess it's worth saying, I never understood why "speed" needs be a factor. If someone gets banned a day, a week, a month down the line, it doesn't really matter to me, as the violation is my big issue;
So in my shoes, I'd be issuing them regardless of time on the thing.

Incidentally, while I sound like a hardass, I tend to honestly not do that much; Half the time a stern warning works, with a proper tag. But that does only work when there's good will between staff, 'least when I've run such things, so I will grant here, it usually results in more spats. Still; I don't tend to give harsh treatment unless someone's pretty fragrant with their disregard.

Small thing as well;
>New documentation has been drafted for keeping track of problematic posters, and it's honestly insane none of us thought of this sooner.
I'm not actually a fan of this as such;
I find that habit is too often used to say "Oh well this guy broke the rules 9 months ago, so we'll give him a ban now" or "Oh, well, he's gotten a lot of reports on him, even if they were unsustained, so he's a problem, ban".

You do need document, both actions and reasons, but that doesn't necessarily need to be a list of "problem users" as it were.
And, 'least where I've been, the tools are largely already in place, albeit with a little sorting required between the spam bot bans. Most mod actions are logged automatically by sites like these. I doubt yours is overly different in that respect. Though I imagine mod messages aren't, and probably ought be.

 No.7630

>tfw no modtag
>>7628
we have the reports. Thank you for those. it is impossible to understate how helpful these are. I am not nearly as active as I once was and it is far too easy for these to go unnoticed.

...

I honestly didn't expect so tactful a reply. color me surprised.
>Here's the 'big three' if I was in charge, if it'll help.
I endeavor to see that it does.

Consistent application of rules is definitely a struggle, one which I hope the new document will help with, and of course you raise some good concerns with that as well. I agree that users shouldn't be banned just because they've offended before, which is why a column exists for a user's most recent ban and frequency as well.

I admit I am often unsure how to handle transparency. In some situations the needed action is obvious, and needs no explanation. in others, I hesitate to provide one because in years past I allowed myself to be bullied by some frequent offenders. I've never been formally trained on how to do this job, I've just relied on my best judgement, and tried to be as consistent as I can, which clearly still needs improvement. I thank you for your patience, and clearly honest feedback in this post.

You're right that mod actions do tend to get logged, mostly in the form of an active ban list, next to a when and where. I can ask the Dev team if there are additional tools I'm not aware of, or if any can be made.

As for speed. I will take this point under consideration. I've always felt speed was important so that the offense and the crime feel more tied together, and because I like to offer grace, and reward a change in behavior, but perhaps I was wrong; too much grace is little more than negligence, and in the digital world, records, links and references can easily be produced, and should be. I will need to update my policy on this.

Thank you again.

 No.7631

>>7630
>we have the reports. Thank you for those. it is impossible to understate how helpful these are.
I don't think they are. I think they're seen as just reports and numbers. Mondo has literally admitted before that he bans solely on reports rather than investigation. but /shruuug

 No.7632

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>>7631
>bans solely on reports rather than investigation
Never been my style. I try to get as much context from the surrounding thread as possible, and often ask other online mods to crosscheck my intended action before moving. perhaps that's slow, but I don't like to move blindly or without thought.

 No.7634

>>7632
If you are Mondo, then yes, you have. I've seen screeenshots, ect ect
not gonna argue it, but yes i know your modding stylez

 No.7635

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>>7634
Mondo is !!Zecora.

!!Scootaloo is me

 No.7636


 No.7637

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>>7629
>>7630
I'm a mite obsessive when it comes to this topic. It's caused troubles for me before, though I'm ill inclined to lose it.
I'm sure I could ramble more for a lot longer. There's already been two or three thoughts that've disappeared from my mind. Though that's a consequence of focusing on other projects between all this, I suppose.

>and frequency as well.
Small thing to keep in mind with this;
Someone who posts often may get more frequent bans than someone who actually breaks the rules more regularly, but posts rarely because of it.
If, let's say, Pipes pops in to stir things up and then leaves for another month, it'll look better than the guy who posts 4-6 hours but got banned twice this week after getting rage baited.

>I admit I am often unsure how to handle transparency.
Honestly, a big one is don't engage a debate in the thread, just flatly state your reasons, make no real 'judgements', and state what action was taken.

Hard to do, especially as a lot of folk get fussy (I would say in large part due to the degradation of trust) but, ideally speaking, the only further post you should make should be to tell folk to take issues to /canterlot/ rather than further derail the thread.

>. I've always felt speed was important so that the offense and the crime feel more tied together,
An understandable perspective where you can be on site, and issue judgement, extremely quickly.
Less so on an imageboard or forum where often there's few staff, inconsistent hours, and a lot of thought that needs to be put in before something's done.
While it's easy to undo a mistake, it still leaves sour tastes, and so it's usually better to think on it anyways.

Most my experience's been places where there's been maybe five of us, at best, so dealing with reports was a "when we can" thing in the first place. Makes speed an impossibility, even if we wanted to.
Remember; This isn't a job. This isn't some 9 to 5 expecting your full attention.
And, hell, even if it was... Having dealt with the police a fair few times, they don't exactly rush either.

Oh, small thing as well since >>7631 makes me think of it;
You are not an individual as a staff member.
Mondo, likewise.
When they do something, it is treated as though you have also done it.
You will be thought of as responsible for the same conduct, despite it coming from someone else.
That's just the nature of authority. While they differentiate enough to hold a grudge, that grudge still extends to everyone associated more oft than not.

This is a major factor towards the 'consistency' part.
While one guy giving more leeway is one thing... If what anon suggests is accurate, well, that makes consistency something all the harder to manage.

Some users generally dislike reporting. I'm among them. I don't tend to. So relying on reports in the first place to pin down 'problem' posters is a bad idea.

 No.7638

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Oh, I remembered another big one I learned a while back;
Permabans on imageboards flatly do not work.
Every single ban you issue, from an hour, to a day, to a week, to a month, to, of course, permabans, is trivially easy to evade.

It's a bit of the "consent of the governed" sort of thing. Some posters will never give a shit, of course, and just ignore rules outright knowing they can just evade. But most won't, unless you give them reason to not care any more.
Permabans are one simple way to do that. Because their option is "don't come back" or "Use a VPN".

As a general rule <month bans are best. You kick them for a day, they probably won't expend the effort to evade. And they'll feel it a whole lot more than the permaban they dodged by resetting their router. And of course, your more 'principled' posters are probably gonna shrug their shoulders if they get a somewhat dubious 1-day ban. Unless they're me. In which case I'll screech just as hard, one day to one year. But I'm a special case.

This only really applies to anonymous posters, though, which I guess is a little less applicable here.
Though I suppose it's easy enough to change one here, too.

 No.7639

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>>7637
>You are not an individual as a staff member.
truly a blessing and a curse. you are right of course

>Some users generally dislike reporting
... I hate that this was necessary for you to say. that had honestly never occured to me. ever. thank you for saying it.

>>7638
yeah. that's one of the worst things about this. there's days I've felt completely powerless, despite having a fair amount of authority around here. hell it's why the whole situation with Nonny happened. There were a ton of tactical decisions made there that I really don't want to bring up again but the point is, you are absolutely right and I genuinely appreciate hearing from someone who has apparently been in a similar position.

 No.7640

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>>7639
I've mostly been on the 'other side' of it, to be fair. Screeching at mods, for neigh on two decades now.
Buuuut, that attitude got me dragged in a fair few times, albeit usually not for that long. Mostly for game servers. A few image boards, a couple discords. Granted the imageboards were more recent, save for an old 8chan board.

>That had honestly never occured to me.
It's viewed a bit like snitching to the teacher, at the best of times. Alongside an empathetic feeling of "well I don't want to get them in trouble", it means a lot of folk will let quite a bit slide before ever thinking of reporting.
Aaaaand of course if folk feel like it doesn't matter anyway, they may avoid it more because of that, too.

In either case I do appreciate you're putting in the effort.
Certainly helps seeing someone actually take these things seriously.
Gonna be honest, I was certain this was gonna be some corpo speak PR guff. Pleasantly surprised.


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