/townhall/ - Townhall

Let me cite a source here.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html

So tl;dr, a guy had sex with a 13 year old. He didn't know this was a bad thing to do because of his shitty sheltered upbringing, didn't question it because he was passive and compliant, and the 13 year old in question didn't signal any kind of displeasure with the situation. Instead of being sent to jail for four to seven years, due to his circumstances, he was instead handed a suspended sentence of nine months and two years of supervised probation.

So that's child rape. 13 year olds can't consent. I would have personally handed down a harsher sentence based on the facts available to me as an outside observer. But there were, in fact, extenuating circumstances that weren't disclosed in the headline, and taking those circumstances into account, this guy probably wasn't an ultra-rapist who was a serious danger to every woman he came across. That is why the judge went for a lighter sentence.

This happened once. It happened once, eleven and a half years ago. And it was reported by the Daily Mail, which is notable for being the most right-wing newspaper you're likely to find in a British newsagents. This is a newspaper that voiced support for the Nazi party before World War II. The people behind it had, and still have, a stated interest in painting minorities in a bad light.

Considering all of that and the fact that the current right-wing protests around the country are based purely on the idea that a young man who recently committed mass murder was an immigrant (he was born and raised here, he has a foreign-sounding name because both his parents were immigrants) and therefore All Immigrants Are Like That, yes, I think the UK can still be saved from whatever you think is threatening it.

>>14289
Well, yes. If you turn up to violent far-right riots, what do you expect? You know exactly what you signed up for and if the police didn't think you were involved they wouldn't have arrested you in the first place.

>>14290
OK, so the rape case was only statutory rape and happened a decade ago.  But it's still insane the UK is locking up people merely for racist tweets.  

>If you turn up to violent far-right riots, what do you expect?
I'd expect that active participants to be jailed but the journalists and other news-gatherers who didn't commit any actual crimes to be let go.

>>14291
Yeah. Supposedly the prisons are overcrowded, too, so I don't get it. Racist tweets are bad but not like, jail bad, right? I'd think getting ostracised by polite society for them would be punishment enough.

>I'd expect that active participants to be jailed but the journalists and other news-gatherers who didn't commit any actual crimes to be let go.
Same. I don't think any of those got arrested though. Maybe I'm wrong.

>Can UK still be saved?

The UK cannot be saved.  I'm not sure they even want to be saved.  They are a fundamentally violent culture with a great deal of historical sin bearing down upon them.

None of this is related to the headline, of course, that's fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, pun intended.

I had heard it was over those girls getting stabbed to death.

>the daily mail

*snorts*

>>14294
Yeah. An 17 year old autistic loner (which tells me he was probably being bullied, but his trial isn't until January so I can't be sure) walked into a Taylor Swift-inspired dance class for children, stabbed thirteen people and killed three of them before being subdued.

And instead of this being treated as a cautionary tale about mental health in young people it's being treated as a problem with Letting Darkies Into The Country because the guy has a weird-sounding name. It'd be funny if I were reading it in a history book and not on the news.

>>14288
I hope not.

>>14290
>If you turn up to violent far-right riots, what do you expect
The same treatment as the countless other "fiery but peaceful" protests ala the Free Palestine types or BLM?

Funny how the guys who went around trashing statues a few years back didn't get this heavy a crackdown... And that's to say nothing of the constant actions by the environmentalist crowd.

>>14294
That was the straw that broke the camel's back, but this has been bubbling under the scenes for a long time.

Personally, I hope they pull a 1776.

>>14301
>Funny how the guys who went around trashing statues a few years back didn't get this heavy a crackdown...
It's a different country though?

>>14301
>The same treatment as the countless other "fiery but peaceful" protests ala the Free Palestine types or BLM?
Last I checked BLM and pro-Palestine protesters weren't stealing, looting and burning like Mongols from the fucking Eurasian steppes.

>Funny how the guys who went around trashing statues a few years back didn't get this heavy a crackdown... And that's to say nothing of the constant actions by the environmentalist crowd.
I don't remember what happened with the statues in this country but the environmentalists get jail time too.

No sink into the sea already

My central opinion over the recent news out of the U.K. is... frankly...

JUST GIVE IRELAND BACK TO THE IRISH ALREADY

The U.K. cannot be saved because it's an evil empire founded inherently on oppression that must be eliminated. I've no reason to swear allegiance to your bullshit royalty just because some ancient warlord succeeded in genocidally murdering a bunch of innocents including some of my ancestors and thus stole a lot of land for himself. It's beyond stupid for you to demand that I do that.

>Independent Wales
>Independent Scotland
>Independent England
>Abolished monarchy
>Surrendered political control over all overseas territories
>And so on

This all should've happened CENTURIES AGO but I'll settle for it happening NOW

I'm 100% behind the black African and brown Arab immigrants who're calling out Englishmen for being insufferable wankers who love lying, cheating, and stealing because fuck those wankers

>>14306
Yeah, four years ago in a country on the other side of the Atlantic. It's really not comparable.

>>14308
>1) All posts in a given thread must contribute constructively to the conversation, whether agreeing or disagreeing. Off-topic, contentless, inflammatory, or hostile posts will be deleted and result in a ban.

>>14309
>The U.K. cannot be saved because it's an evil empire founded inherently on oppression that must be eliminated
No, the UK was formed because the king of Scotland became the king of England. You're thinking of the British Empire, which fucking sucked but also died in like the 60s.

>I've no reason to swear allegiance to your bullshit royalty
You don't have to? The UK isn't America, kids don't have to recite the pledge of allegiance in schools or anything.

>Abolished monarchy
If you want Wales, Scotland and England to be independent and Ireland to be unified, then what does that have to do with anything? You're just spiting the English at that point, and it's neither the fault of 99.9% of them nor the fault of the current royal family that things are the way they are.

>Surrendered political control over all overseas territories
That's just plain dumb. Most of those are populated by people who identify as British. Giving up the Falklands, for example, would result in the Falklands going to Argentina, who given their possessiveness over them probably wouldn't take kindly to them being populated mostly by Brits. Ideally, people who identify with a certain nation should belong to that nation.

>I'm 100% behind the black African and brown Arab immigrants who're calling out Englishmen for being insufferable wankers who love lying, cheating, and stealing because fuck those wankers
Please be more racist, that'll definitely facilitate constructive conversation.

>>14315
BLM is a known terrorist group that is run by a racist and is used as an excuse to escalate 'mostly peaceful protests' (Burning down cars, and destroying businesses through violence and vandalism,) into riots and looting.

I'm laughing at your post because you are either living under a rock (or not in America at all) or clearly support politically charged racial 'justified' violence for a bunch of chimpanzees who want claim to want equality while acting like a pack of wild, aggressive, violent, and entitled animals.

Palestinians are people who claim to advocate peace and equality for cameras while begging for aid, yet support sharia law and will opening execute people for being homosexuals; mutilate and honor kill women who are victims of rape; and have called for the deaths of anyone who aren't muslim. As a matter of fact the muslim faith is a death cult that spreads from place to place (like they did with Paris, the UK, and Sweden) and attempt to turn it into their own shit hole of a country.

Am I being inflammatory or trying to troll you? No. Those are my opinions based on what I've seen, read, and heard about throughout my life. I hate the black community and I hate Islam. I hate Palestine and I'm glad those people are getting fucked up by Israel. The only thing I'd complain about is that Palestinians aren't killing enough IDF in return. We shouldn't be supporting either side.

>>14328
>"I hate the black community and I hate Islam. I hate Palestine."
>BLM, blacks, Muslims, and/or Palestinians are bad because they're hateful: "acting like a pack of wild, aggressive, violent, and entitled animals" while being "racist", engaging in "politically charged... violence".

So... you hate those groups because they remind you of you? And because they do what you do? And say what you say? And advocate what you advocate?

Is there even the slightest bit of any real difference between what you're condemning and you?

Is this like the Gambino crime family being at war with the other Five Families in NYC in the middle of the 20th Century, with the gangsters being exactly the same types of people yet just with different loyalties? Or maybe this is like some kind of Fortnite game where everybody just sort of is teamed up with whomever? Or what?

>>14332
I've never rioted, looted/stolen, destroyed property, committed murder, or attacked anyone unprovoked. I've also never resorted to violence just because someone was white, which the people who attend and support Black Lives Matter protests have done.

So yeah, there is a huge difference.

However, at this point I wouldn't mind if I were a hypocrite over it; if there were a button that I could press that would kill off all black people and Muslims I would press it in a heartbeat.

>>14328
>Palestinians are people who claim to advocate peace and equality for cameras while begging for aid, yet support sharia law and will opening execute people for being homosexuals; mutilate and honor kill women who are victims of rape; and have called for the deaths of anyone who aren't muslim. As a matter of fact the muslim faith is a death cult that spreads from place to place (like they did with Paris, the UK, and Sweden) and attempt to turn it into their own shit hole of a country.
>Am I being inflammatory or trying to troll you? No. Those are my opinions based on what I've seen, read, and heard about throughout my life. I hate the black community and I hate Islam. I hate Palestine and I'm glad those people are getting fucked up by Israel. The only thing I'd complain about is that Palestinians aren't killing enough IDF in return. We shouldn't be supporting either side.

Yeah, this is killing most of my good will towards you nonny.

This is asinine bigotry, it reflects that what you only see what you want to see, hear or read here instead of seeing the whole picture.

Personally I'm pro-univolved civillians when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict here, I'd love to see the anti-hamas Palestinians and the anti-Netanyahu Israelis unite to tear hamas and the IDF new assholes.

No population anywhere is an ideological monolith, especially one that consitutes a quarter of the world's population.

Frankly it's goddamn cowardly as shit to refuse to acknowledge the history of the conflict in Palestine and what violent role europe played in helping establish Israel. It's cowardly as fuck to ignore or deny  that it was colonialism and that that was the root cause of this generations-spanning vicious cycle. Before that, Palestine was a much less antisemitic place. The Israeli government is not the entirely innocent in this conflict. Governments rarely are. Fuck Hamas, Fuck Netanyahu and fuck you!

Also the fact you would want to kill off your own community is especially disgusting.

>>14336

>This is asinine bigotry, it reflects that what you only see what you want to see, hear or read here instead of seeing the whole picture.
I'm seeing, hearing, and reading from more than one source, including the horse's mouth on both ends. I don't subscribe to what others tell me to think. It's why I often try to see things both sides before forming an opinion. And unfortunately I can't really say anything good about either community of people.

>Personally I'm pro-univolved civillians when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict here, I'd love to see the anti-hamas Palestinians and the anti-Netanyahu Israelis unite to tear hamas and the IDF new assholes.

I would agree with you, if the people were actual people and walking characatures who embody some of the most fundamentally fucked up aspects of humanity.

I don't expect a monolith, but I'm not going to stick my neck out for two packs of murderous bigots. Both the people of Israel and Palestine would kill the both of us simply for you being trans, and myself for a number of reasons.

>Yeah, this is killing most of my good will towards you nonny.

I am open about my beliefs. If you want to attempt to shame or guilt me over them; or wish to see me as a monster then so be it. I certainly do not see you as one.

>own people
What? Those are not my people.

Also I hate Israel. I don't know why so many people think that you have to like one or the other. They're both fucked up places with fucked up people.

The way I see it there's a few ways you can handle my opinion; choices that will ultimately lead to roads upon roads that weave the fabrics of our lives. You can ignore it; and by extension ignore me in the future. That is fine. It would be a little disappointing, considering I find you pleasant, but I understand if that is your decision. You can choose to ignore that particular opinion and say "Let's agree to disagree." Or we can continue to talk about it. I certainly disagree with people and still remain friendly or even friends.

Alternatively, if you are so inclined and feel strongly about it, we could talk about it over a call.

>>14333
>murdering people or otherwise hurting people due to their race, religion, disability status, sexual orientation, gender identity, and such is very bad
>I want to murder people or otherwise hurt people due to their race, religion, disability status, sexual orientation, gender identity, and such personally

Well... okay... then...

>>14333
>>14341
I'd would still also like to take the hypothetical and put it through literally. As weird is that would be. Like. Yeah.

{[Suppose for the sake of argument that somehow America becomes a "pure" place and nobody who's disabled or LGBT or mixed race or whatever ever lives there ever again.]}

To start with, it should be pointed out that around 20%-25% of Americans have some sort of a personal disability, and this includes some highly crucial individuals in the sense of American civilization having any hope with regards to science and technology. A country that would prevent a Stephen Hawking from living there, much less working there, is going to be an incredibly shitty place to have any sort of learning and education whatsoever. I mean like... my God... in practical terms this is going to result in a sort of anti-intellectual wave and economic crisis that would turn the U.S. into someplace like North Korea.

Speaking of North Korea, the dystopian hell existence that would have to be created in order to prevent anybody from having either any same-sex attraction or giving support to some other person who has that... like there could be no liberties of any kind. Freedom of speech. Freedom of the press. Freedom of religion. All of that would have to be flushed. Every single aspect of one's life would have to be censored in order to prevent "wrongthink".

I could go on. But. Eh.

Personally, if I could, I'd hit a button that sinks the UK into the ocean.

>>14337
>m seeing, hearing, and reading from more than one source, including the horse's mouth on both ends. I don't subscribe to what others tell me to think. It's why I often try to see things both sides before forming an opinion.

But do you engage with such things critically and honestly? Do you do so with any awareness of your own biases and compensate for it or are you another one of those spineless bigots who dismisses any information that contradicts your bigotry as bullshit?

Also
>both

There are more than two sides in this conflict. There is Hamas, there is Netanyahu and the IDF, and then there's the people who make up the collateral damage who don't usually get to speak for themselves and whom the other two don't want anyone to even think about. Thats how all wars work.

>>14337
>I would agree with you, if the people were actual people and walking characatures who embody some of the most fundamentally fucked up aspects of humanity.
>I don't expect a monolith, but I'm not going to stick my neck out for two packs of murderous bigots. Both the people of Israel and Palestine would kill the both of us simply for you being trans, and myself for a number of reasons.

You're literally making a monolith out of them anyway. You'rebeing a massive hypocrite calling all Palestinians and Israelis bigots. Neither of them are ideological monoliths, because they are human.

And on the broader scope of whether or not Islam is actually as hateful of people like us ... I mean, shit, Islam is a 15 century old religion with almost 2 billion adherents and nearly as many different interpretations of the Quran as there are denominations of Christianity. In fact the Bugi people of Indonesia, who are primarily muslims and have been so for centuries at this point, traditionall recognize 5 different gender identities within their culture, predating the introduction of Islam, but persisting long aftwards, to name just one example. Islam is not monolithically fundamentalist.

Also also, there are plenty of rural, white religious conservative racists people back home in Texas who would want me dead for being trans (and you for being black) but that doesn't mean I would suport killing their kids if some of them pulled off some terrorist plot. That would be fucking disgusting.

Also, refraing from killing them is not the same as sticking your neck out for them, you disengenuous fuck.

>I am open about my beliefs. If you want to attempt to shame or guilt me over them; or wish to see me as a monster then so be it. I certainly do not see you as one.

Not trying to shame or guilt you, just expressing my disgust after I had just started to like you. I can't fucking stand hypocritical bigots like you, and sure as fuck can't trust them after they reveal that bigotry. I don't trust you're being honest with me at this point.


>What? Those are not my people.

I was referring to how often you say, with little provocation, about how you want the entire black community to die, like you did here

>>14333
>if there were a button that I could press that would kill off all black people and Muslims I would press it in a heartbeat.

>>14338
>Or we can continue to talk about it. I certainly disagree with people and still remain friendly or even friends.

I can remain friendly with people I disagree with all the time. I'm left-of-center and many of my oldest friends are right-of-center whom I'm always disagreeing with.

But this kind of murderous bigotry is where I draw the line, that's a step too far, that implies a sense of superiority and narcissism that makes me distrustful. I may have expressed an extreme disgust for people of certain attitudes and actions in other threads, and wished them grwat suffering, but that doesn't mean I would want to commit genocide against their uninvolved family members.


>Alternatively, if you are so inclined and feel strongly about it, we could talk about it over a call.

I would rather do it here for everyone to see.

>>14345
Isn't this coming from the same person who said that they want to see people suffer a fate worse than death just because they didn't feel like wearing a face mask or something?

Jeeze. For someone who hates Hypocrites, you sure can act like one.

>>14345
>But do you engage with such things critically and honestly?
I would hope so. I don't subscribe to any sort of conventional or orthodox dogma or rhetoric. I try to see things from all sides and come up with my own perspective; whether it agrees with others or not.

I understand that there are more sides to a conflict than just the IDF and hamas. I also understand that the civilian population might not support the cause of either side; I mean look at the American people and the Vietnam War. However I feel that those 'people', both Palestinians and Israeli are apart of the problem and fully support their own causes. (Especially when 71% of Palestinians supported the Hamas attacks and said that they believed it that Hamas wasn't committing a war crime. 34% of Israelis said that the IDF's response was 'about right' and 39% said it 'wasn't enough.' That's a whopping 73% of people that support the IDF and their own warcrimes.) Those 'people' would also happily come to a place like America (again, it's happened already in other countries) and demand that we adhere to their way of life; and if we don't then we are the ones who deserve to die and face their consequences. I understand that there are individuals on both sides who might actually be good people, but as a whole, I feel that the world would be a much better place without them. I don't really see that as hypocritical. I don't hate individuals based on their beliefs or race; however I hate how collectives can behave. I weight the benefits and the consequences of their continued existence and I just don't see the appeal. It would be unfortunate to press that hypothetical button for the innocents, but it's like using hydrogen peroxide and scraping out an infected wound. Some of your own cells have to die in the process.

That's all what it boils down to really. You called that sort of talk hyperbole didn't you? It's not like I'm advocating for the actual genocide of those people. I'm simply expressing my disdain for them. It's not like I'm actually rallying people to go round them up and slaughter every single last one of them.

>You'rebeing a massive hypocrite calling all Palestinians and Israelis bigots.
As a collective group of people, they are.
>Islam is a 15 century old religion
Islam was also founded by a warlord who had sex with a nine year old child and possibly when she was even younger than that. He married her when she was six. Islam was originally founded as a warrior death cult.
The people of Bugi were also influenced by years upon years of Hinduism, Animism, Tolotang, and buddhism. It's the same reason that Christians in Japan worship a little differently than those in America. You're gonna change the belief somewhat based on your people's previous religious inclinations. The people you're talking about in particular practice Sunni Islam which strictly dictates that being homosexual is a sin and that a male wearing female clothing or vice versa is to be seen as an abomination. The people you're getting angry over are the same people that would absolutely celebrate your execution.

>Also also, there are plenty of rural, white religious conservative racists people back home in Texas who would want me dead for being trans (and you for being black) but that doesn't mean I would suport killing their kids if some of them pulled off some terrorist plot. That would be fucking disgusting.
Want you dead is the key word. In Palestine people would actively go out of their way to kill you for being trans and it would be seen as acceptable. You're actively defending people who would kill you because you don't identify as your biological gender.

You know that before ISIS ever took over places like Iraq and Syria that village justice was a thing (and still is), and people would kidnap homosexuals and insert glue into their anus so they could die from a fecal impact, right? That is a horrible way to die.

>>Not trying to shame or guilt you
>and fuck you
>disgusting
>you disengeuous
>can't trust them after they reveal that bigotry
>I can't fucking stand hypocritical bigots like you
>hypocrite
>bigot
>I would rather do it here for everyone to see.
All insults lie in root of attempting to shame or guilt the other party, especially in this context.

Another thing: how am I disingenuous if I just "revealed" that I am bigoted to you? Which is it? Am I really a liar or are you just getting to emotionally charged to really judge my character? Because it's really hard for me to be disingenuous when I've been pretty open and honest about my own point of view from the moment I came to this place.
>I don't trust you're being honest with me at this point.
No, you just don't like what I am saying. I am one of thee most honest people when it comes to my beliefs. The only place where you'd really see me guarded about that is going to be at work where I do not mix politics with business.

>I was referring to how often you say, with little provocation, about how you want the entire black community to die, like you did here
Again, the black community is not my people. If we want to go there as well, black people are some of the most racist, sexist, homophobic people I've ever met in my life. I've heard a lot of black people talk about how they hate gays (And they would include you in that) and how they would shoot them if one talked to them. (Among many other things.)

>But this kind of murderous bigotry is where I draw the line
I didn't realize I was killing people with my thoughts about them.

>>Alternatively, if you are so inclined and feel strongly about it, we could talk about it over a call.
>I would rather do it here for everyone to see.
That was more so for communication's benefit. While I can articulate myself perfectly fine through text, there are certain nuances and points that I can't quite express through words on a computer screen alone. As for people watching, again, you are trying to create a narrative that I should watch my words because others might be watching. That is a form of manipulation and intimidation. There's a difference between expressing your disgust for the way I think and expressing your disgust for me as a person.

It doesn't hurt me if people see me as a boogie man because of my opinions. Everyone has their own skeletons in closet. The only difference is that my door is widen open for people to examine the bones.

>>14350
Are you aware of how few people would be left in the world if everybody with shitty minds who have bad, disproven religious beliefs was suddenly gone? If Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and so on were all exterminated off of the face of the Earth, who exactly would be left? Who is pure enough in your eyes?

Just hardcore, absolute atheists and nobody else? I guess?

If I'm a Unitarian Quaker, personally, then can I stay alive? Or no?

>>14349
Psssh, they probably think child rapists deserve to be violated as well.

>>14352
Not a whole lot, I'll tell you that.
>Just hardcore, absolute atheists and nobody else? I guess?

Everything is contextual. Islam and Muslims are like the pitbulls of the religious world. They are currently causing a problem. The reason I mentioned the thing about Mr. Muhammad is because a lot of muslims still act like sandcave dwelling fanatics. They're open about it until it is convenient and then they pretend to be peaceful. It's literally a form of jihad that they practice called defensive jihad.

>Quakers
I don't know much about people who worship oatmeal

I don't even use reddit, but that's a lot of stats
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/vubyx/only_a_tiny_minority_of_extremists/

>'kill everybody who isn't an atheist so what we can live in a perfect society of cool people' rises back from the grave as a meme

Is it fucking 2005 in here again?

*sighs loudly*

I'll show myself out...

I guess I'm just not elite enough to be a part of your master class of superior evolved beings. Then. Ugh.

>>14362
Would you believe me if I said I hated militant atheists as well? I'm not saying that just because someone is a Muslim that they are automatically a bad person. All I am saying is that in today's world Islam is still an issue, and that it hypothetically if I were to push a button that got rid of them, the world would suddenly be a better place to live in.

Its kind of like how El Salvador rounded up all of those people with tattoos and threw them into prisons and then suddenly all of their crime rates dropped by like 95%.

>'kill everybody who isn't an atheist so what we can live in a perfect society of cool people' rises back from the grave as a meme
The issue isn't religious practice in of itself. It's scaling the pros and cons of particular groups of people, and muslims in today's world are an issue. They didn't just change in the last 30+ years. I'm sure if this was the 13th century I'd be saying the same things about Christians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiwe97YASDg

>>14350
>However I feel that those 'people', both Palestinians and Israeli are apart of the problem and fully support their own causes. (Especially when 71% of Palestinians supported the Hamas attacks and said that they believed it that Hamas wasn't committing a war crime. 34% of Israelis said that the IDF's response was 'about right' and 39% said it 'wasn't enough.' That's a whopping 73% of people that support the IDF and their own warcrimes.)

Considering that innocents to have been killed, how do you expect people to react, regardless of religion? Gaza is basically an open-air prison with people living in a surveillance state with a lot of supplies of basic necessities constrained by Israel? And in the broader scope of time, there's the entire history of modern israel and the decades of war and colonialism behind it all. You can't just ignore that and act like Islam and Judaism are the sole reason for the responses to the polls. They're stuck in a vicious cycle that war and empathy for the death of the innocents on either side that fuels that hate, and serves the interests of the power of the two states involved at the expense of innocent Palestinians and Israelis.

I mean, historically, when Christians would go on programs against Jewish populations, many of those jews would end up in Palestine because the Muslims there welcomed them. What do you think changed that?

>Those 'people' would also happily come to a place like America (again, it's happened already in other countries) and demand that we adhere to their way of life;

Everytime I here this orthodox rhetoric regurgitated, it bemuses me considering it's talking about a religion that is very much centered around three cities in the middle east and the unlikelyhood that those who live in or in the same country as those cities would even want to come to America.

>and if we don't then we are the ones who deserve to die and face their consequences.

As disgusting and monstrous as it is, it isn't like colonizing powers and the powers that fund those colonizing powers are completely innocent in stoking that hatred. It's not as if they're any different than us is interpreting all the actions of our states as something all of us are implicit in. Our states have pretty much fucked us over in fueling their rhetoric they can use against us with their own people. You can't make accurate assessments about it while ignoring that context.

And that's only focusing on Palestinian Muslims, not Muslims globally. Cause they aren't a monolith.

>I weight the benefits and the consequences of their continued existence and I just don't see the appeal.

What 'appeals' doesn't matter, innocent lives are still innocent lives.


>It would be unfortunate to press that hypothetical button for the innocents, but it's like using hydrogen peroxide and scraping out an infected wound. Some of your own cells have to die in the process.

Nope, there is no equivalent there, innocent lives are still innocent lives. Fuck your 'might makes right' morality. This is the core of what's so fucking disgusting about your attitude and values.

>That's all what it boils down to really. You called that sort of talk hyperbole didn't you? It's not like I'm advocating for the actual genocide of those people. I'm simply expressing my disdain for them. It's not like I'm actually rallying people to go round them up and slaughter every single last one of them.

I recognize it as hyperbole, but it still expresses an attitude that I find completely fucking disgusting.

I may have expressed my disgust for the bullshit of anti-maskers acting like entitled toddlers, acting like their suffering was so much more important than any of their neighbors and embracing pathetic absolving bullshit narratives and hypocritically accussing others of the same, but I didn't express the same disgust for their kids or anyone else in their families or communities who didn't engage in that bullshit.

>Islam was also founded by a warlord who had sex with a nine year old child and possibly when she was even younger than that. He married her when she was six. Islam was originally founded as a warrior death cult.

Absolutely disgusting but irrelevant to my point. Which is why I point out it's a 15 century old religion, pointing to the fact that got less and less monolithic over time as it spread across the world. There are liberal, modernist and reformist muslims who interpret the hadiths as implying that Aisha was married to Mohammad at 9 but that the marriage wasn't consumated until she was 17 or 18 or whatever. Even if that's not true, the fact they would cling to that expresses how those modernist find that fact about Mohammad disgusting themselves, which is what actually matters in the here and now, 15 centuries later. The fact that there exists ultraconservative fundamentalists in a very specific part of the world doesn't imply the non-fundamentalists don't exist.

>The people of Bugi were also influenced by years upon years of Hinduism, Animism, Tolotang, and buddhism. It's the same reason that Christians in Japan worship a little differently than those in America. You're gonna change the belief somewhat based on your people's previous religious inclinations.

>running face first into my point and missing it anyway

No shit dude, The world's largest religions are not at all monolithic precisely because of that fact. There are multiple Christanities, multiple Judaisms, multiple Buddhisms, and multiple Islams because of syncretism.

>The people you're talking about in particular practice Sunni Islam which strictly dictates that being homosexual is a sin and that a male wearing female clothing or vice versa is to be seen as an abomination.

Uh huh, and which flavor of Sunniism would the Bugi be practicing? There's a lot of them, they aren't a monolith either.

>Want you dead is the key word. In Palestine people would actively go out of their way to kill you for being trans and it would be seen as acceptable. You're actively defending people who would kill you because you don't identify as your biological gender.

Yes, there are horrible people who exist there who sincerely believe that, but I don't wish for the people there who's basic human empathy constrains them from doing so to be wiped off the face of them earth with those who don't, just because they're in the same broad diverse community as those who do.

>You know that before ISIS ever took over places like Iraq and Syria that village justice was a thing (and still is), and people would kidnap homosexuals and insert glue into their anus so they could die from a fecal impact, right? That is a horrible way to die.

Same point, that's pretty fucking horrible, but that still doesn't mean I would wish for those uninvolved in it to be killed off for being associated with it, especially those individuals who find it horrifying themselves.

>All insults lie in root of attempting to shame or guilt the other party, especially in this context.

Nah, expressing contempt is sometimes just expressing contempt.

>Another thing: how am I disingenuous if I just "revealed" that I am bigoted to you?

By implying that I am implying I am disgusted by you for not 'sticking your neck out' for Palestinians. You're being disengenuous about what I said here.


>No, you just don't like what I am saying. I am one of thee most honest people when it comes to my beliefs. The only place where you'd really see me guarded about that is going to be at work where I do not mix politics with business.

I do find this an abhorrent belief, but given that you also believe in 'might makes right', how can I trust that you don't have a superiority complex in regards to me. How do I know you aren't just acting like some manipulative narcissist when you tell me you think I'm a generally pleasant person? Is there any sincerity there?

>As for people watching, again, you are trying to create a narrative that I should watch my words because others might be watching.

Not really, but given that I don't trust you, I'd rather receipts be out in the open. Not trying to manipulate you into saying anything, but I'd rather not end up in a situation where you'd be dishonest about what I say after the fact.


>There's a difference between expressing your disgust for the way I think and expressing your disgust for me as a person.

The former implies a lot about the later. How one thinks implies a lot about their character. I judge based on the content of other's character.

>Again, the black community is not my people. If we want to go there as well, black people are some of the most racist, sexist, homophobic people I've ever met in my life. I've heard a lot of black people talk about how they hate gays (And they would include you in that) and how they would shoot them if one talked to them. (Among many other things.)

I thought you were black.

And I am aware there exist black people who are racists, sexists and homophobic, there are plenty of white people who are the same way too (and usually in the same parts of the country). But in both communities, there are plenty who are none of those things. Again I may wish pain on the worst of most of them but I don't wish death for those individuals associated with them merely by virtue of being associated with them as you seem to.

>I didn't realize I was killing people with my thoughts about them.

More of the disengenuousness about what is meant. That's not how adjectives work dude.

>>14367

>how can I trust that you don't have a superiority complex in regard to me. How do I know you aren't just acting like some manipulative narcissist when you tell me you think I'm a generally pleasant person? Is there any sincerity there?
I'll start with this question because I feel it's more important than some dumb argument. Considering I haven't insulted you, said anything to look down upon you, and told you that I see you eye to eye; I'd say that I don't feel superior to you. I don't feel inferior either. I do enjoy talking to you and hearing your perspectives, considering a lot of them are so different and yet so similar. However, I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you that I do or don't. All I can really do is be sincere when it comes to the actual trust of other people that I find pleasant. If you really feel that I am manipulating for whatever reason, then you are always free to fly away. It's okay.

>Considering that innocents to have been killed, how do you expect people to react, regardless of religion?
Those people have been fucked up long before Israel dug their Jewish claws into them. Since the conception of Islam, Islam has been a problem. The only time it isn't is when Islam is the dominant religion because those who would speak out against it were killed in cold blood. That and Alexandria, but atheists were allowed to live freely alongside them, so it was a strange place in human history to begin with. And even then Alexandria was burned down by.. You guessed it! Muslims. The rivers ran red and black with the blood and ink of the scholars. Those polls were also Muslims living in America who supported suicide bombing against American civilians and soldiers alike; so no, I don't really sympathize with them. I don't really like Jews to be honest.
>No shit dude, the world's largest religions are not at all monolithic precisely because of that fact. There are multiple Christanities, multiple Judaisms, multiple Buddhisms, and multiple Islams because of syncretism.
Yeah, I get that. I understand that there are different sects to a religion. It's why many Christians can pick and choose what they believe in with the bible. I understand that not every single last muslim on the planet is going to be an violent religious fanatic. However, the current state of the world reflects that many, many muslims choose the more violent and oppressive parts of their book willingly; and I respond in turn. That is how I feel. It is a response of anger when I think about those people, if you can even call them that.

I also feel that you want to justify their hatred for us while dismissing and handwaving any sort of hatred that stems in return.

>'might makes right
I've said that might makes right on a biological scale. I didn't say it always justifies our actions as humans on a (subjective) scale of morality.
>Nah, expressing contempt is sometimes just expressing contempt.
I don't think this is the case.
>The former implies a lot about the later. How one thinks implies a lot about their character. I judge based on the content of other's character.
I agree to a degree, but also disagree to a degree. I've met people that held say; racist ideals and thoughts, but wouldnt hesitate to save a life, even if it was someone who was apart of a particular tribe that they hated. And you aren't really judging me based on the content of my character. You're judging me based off of a few hyperbolic comments about Muslims and the black community.
I've also met those who have claimed to be egalitarians who even truly believed that they were, but their actions made them bigger bigots than the person claiming to be racist or sexist or whatever. A lot of it is posturing.

>may have expressed my disgust for the bullshit of anti-maskers acting like entitled toddlers, acting like their suffering was so much more important than any of their neighbors and embracing pathetic absolving bullshit narratives and hypocritically accussing others of the same, but I didn't express the same disgust for their kids or anyone else in their families or communities who didn't engage in that bullshit.
>"What I said was bad but!"
No. It's pretty much the same thing. The group of people you targeted while you felt were personally attacking others due to laziness or apathy have good and bad people in them. I've met them on all sides. Those who were simply tired of being told what to do, but worked in hospitals and saved lives; those who worked in law enforcement or the fire department or fellow sailors who have and were willing to save lives. You have to remember that this was an on-going thing that can be blamed upon our political leaders more so than anything else. People were just tired. And you yourself wanted to condemn them to a fate worse than death. You think that would only affect the person in question who offended you? No. It would affect their loved ones all the same, perhaps even worse than their own deaths. You wish to criticize me for being tired and lumping a group of people together, throwing my hands up and saying "Fuck all of them." But you do the same in your own ways.

That isn't very fair of you.

>Sticking your neck out doesn't
I don't think you really got what I meant by sticking my neck out.

>I thought you were black.
What does being black have to do with being a part of the black community? Those aren't my people. That sounds pretty racist to me. I dunno.

>More of the disengenuousness about what is meant. That's not how adjectives work dude.
>By implying that I am implying I am disgusted by you for not 'sticking your neck out' for Palestinians. You're being disengenuous about what I said here.
I'm starting to think you don't know what disingenuous actually means. I also am starting to think you don't actually know what the word "hypocrite" actually means either; like they're just buzzwords to be used when you don't like what the other person has to say.

>>14378
>Considering I haven't insulted you, said anything to look down upon you, and told you that I see you eye to eye; I'd say that I don't feel superior to you. I don't feel inferior either. I do enjoy talking to you and hearing your perspectives, considering a lot of them are so different and yet so similar.

Yeah I don't trust someone who believes "might makes right" would actually be honest. That's a fundamentally narcissistic worldview.

>>14378
>Those people have been fucked up long before Israel dug their Jewish claws into them ...
> ... with them. I don't really like Jews to be honest.

How is so hard to understand that I oppose being blind to human individuality? If a contemporary muslim is a fundamentalists, framing everyone as an attacking them for being Muslims (thus justify Jihad by their own theology) then fuck them, but if they don't believe that bullshit then let them just exist. I don't give to shit about the fate of the former but I sure as hell won't wish death on the later just because they're Muslims, especially if they believe the fanatics are violent heretics and reject them too.

>However, the current state of the world reflects that many, many muslims choose the more violent and oppressive parts of their book willingly; and I respond in turn.

And you don't dig deeper into it? Do you notice the pattern of where those muslims come from in [i]modern times[/?]? It's not a coincidence they come from the most oil-rich countries in Asia, or former European colonies. Fundamentalists of any religion form amongst those who feel, usually justifiably, that they're getting the short end of the stick when it comes to modernism and modernist projects. That's not a matter of simply being muslim, that's a matter of being human, that's why fundamentalist fantasticism emerges regardless of religion, and the religion is reinterpretted to justify the drive for vengence. It's disgusting and abhorrent, but it's not a product of the religion alone, the religion becomes a source of post-hoc justification for violent reprisal because that's how human beings work.

>That is how I feel. It is a response of anger when I think about those people, if you can even call them that.

Yeah, and that you feel that way about those associated regardless of individual differences in attitude or religious interpretation or theology is what I am judging you negatively for.

>And you aren't really judging me based on the content of my character. You're judging me based off of a few hyperbolic comments about Muslims and the black community.

I'm judging you what your hyperbolic comments and attitudes about people merely associated with those who disgust you regardless of thei individuality and what that suggest about your character.

>Those who were simply tired of being told what to do, but worked in hospitals and saved lives; those who worked in law enforcement or the fire department or fellow sailors who have and were willing to save lives. You have to remember that this was an on-going thing that can be blamed upon our political leaders more so than anything else. People were just tired. And you yourself wanted to condemn them to a fate worse than death.

You have the screenshot of what I said and you know I was way more specific than just 'people tired of masking'. This is really fucking disengenuous, by which I mean "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."

I was expressing a deep disgust with those who reacted to masking by grasping conspiracy theories as an absolving narrative and denying any justification for masking. Just like I feel disgust for any muslim who twist facts to justify terrorism against innocent Americans by considering them complicit in persecuting them 'for being Muslim' because of the oil-centric foreign policy of many western powers that's been fucking them over the past century.

>You think that would only affect the person in question who offended you? No. It would affect their loved ones all the same, perhaps even worse than their own deaths.

I explicitly condemned them for how their attitudes and actions negatively effected everyone around them, which logically includes their own loved ones. Again, you're being disengenuous as fuck.

>I don't think you really got what I meant by sticking my neck out.

So what do you mean by it? I've understood the basic metaphor as being about risking yourself to defend another.

>What does being black have to do with being a part of the black community? Those aren't my people. That sounds pretty racist to me. I dunno.

Because I would assume it's your community of origin.

I don't live in Texas anymore, and there's a ton of things I hate about it and it's greedy corrupt oil baron culture and the racism of many of its rural parts, but I don't deny that its still my community in a sense given my origins in it. I'm also from an upper-middle class background and really fucking hate a lot about that community's culture of insincere friendships and backstabbing, but I don't wish all of them death or a fate worse than death cause I'm not going to assume I am somehow alone among those in Texas who come from that community, nor do I assume that those who do embrace many of the things I hate most about the problems I have with Texan culture necessarily are the types who would pathetically embrace info wars-esque conspiracy theories about covid to rationalize why their fatigue with masking is worse than those dying of covid. In fact, that there exist plenty of people in Texas who are like me is a massive part of why I hate the anti-masker conspiracy theorists there who hurt them.

That you would wish the black community all die off without consideration that you are hardly alone among black people struggling within the black community, and struggling to improve it, is abhorrent.

I'm not black and I haven't spent a lot of time within the black community, but as an outside observer who's had frequent interactions with tons of people from that same community over the course of my lifetime, and I recognize that it's hardly monolithic. You've heard plenty of black people in whatever corner of the community you've experienced say all sorts of homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic and racists things ... and so have I, and I am well aware of the kinds of transphobic and homophobic hate crimes that have been committed by them. But I've also met and know a ton who say and do the exact opposite sorts of things who still consider themselves a part of the black community.

>>14383
>Yeah I don't trust someone who believes "might makes right" would actually be honest. That's a fundamentally narcissistic worldview.
"From a biological point of view"
Also, a philosophical point of view. It is often the victors who determine what is right and what is wrong. You're making a lot of assumptions within assumptions. I think you're making it very clear that you simply want to berate me, shame me for my opinions, and attribute other negative characteristics to myself as a person because you don't like what I have to say.
>How is so hard to understand that I oppose being blind to human individuality?
How hard is it to understand that I've been advocating that people should be given a chance on an individual level? We aren't talking about individuals though. We're talking about broad strokes and large groups.

>And you don't dig deeper into it? Do you notice the pattern of where those muslims come from in [i]modern times[/?]? It's not a coincidence they come from the most oil-rich countries in Asia, or former European colonies
I know about the oil-princes and the way that many other countries rely on that oil for a profit. Again, those people have been terrible long before oil was even a thing to be sought after. Christians get shit over their crusades, but people tend to forget that muslims drew first blood and had a lot of crusades on their own. Which is fine. I don't care about the past so much as I care about the present. And in the present, the average muslim is a horrible person from what I've experienced. You want to talk about being human, and yet you want to invalidate me as a human? I don't understand what it is you wish of me. You turned on a dime. If you want to see me as your enemy, then so be it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFh5FzXIeBg
>That's not a matter of simply being muslim, that's a matter of being human, that's why fundamentalist fantasticism emerges regardless of religion, and the religion is reinterpretted to justify the drive for vengence. It's disgusting and abhorrent, but it's not a product of the religion alone, the religion becomes a source of post-hoc justification for violent reprisal because that's how human beings work
Those same people also target other people's civilians, and it isn't just their military forces/infamous terroristic 'extremists'. The religion was founded through extremism and continues to do so to this day. If the act isn't done by one's hands it is celebrated and funded by other members of their tribe. I'm gonna end up going in circles if I just repeat the same stuff.

>You have the screenshot of what I said and you know I was way more specific than just 'people tired of masking'. This is really fucking disengenuous, by which I mean "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."
>I was expressing a deep disgust with those who reacted to masking by grasping conspiracy theories as an absolving narrative and denying any justification for masking.
I was genuinely under the impression that it was both.  I also don't think that a conspirator's reaction is justification to wish them a fate worse than death. Believing the government is lying to you is pretty natural at this point, considering every government lies to their people; and America kept flipping back and forth between "Everything's okay!" and "Dear God we're all going to die!" When it was convenient for politicians to do so.  

>I explicitly condemned them for how their attitudes and actions negatively effected everyone around them, which logically includes their own loved ones. Again, you're being disengenuous as fuck.

It sounds like "Disingenuous" and sincerity is just your buzzword for "I don't like it when you disagree with me or fail to see things from my point of view." That isn't the case. Just because people say things or interpret things in a way you don't like, doesn't mean they are attempting to lie or pass as sincere when they are being underhanded. There is no grand scheme or narrative I am trying to push on you. If anything it is the opposite in that you seem to be trying to either A) Manipulate myself or anyone else reading this into siding with your own believes; or B) Highroad me so that you can feel validated in your opinions. A good ass pat. (And not in the fun way for anyone else.) What I was explicitly saying is that you are willing to condemn them for supposedly hurting everyone around them.. Yet if you got your wish and they did experience a fate worse than death.. It would also hurt all of their potentially innocent loved ones as well. All because they didn't agree with you over Covid and you thought their attitude stunk. That's what it boils down to.

>So what do you mean by it?
I'm not going to advocate for those people. I'm not going to be around them if I can avoid it, and I'm not going to tell other people that muslims are worth defending. I give individuals chances, but as a whole I am not going to risk their dangerous and violent tendencies through their continued existence. So in this hypothetical hyperbolic example: I would push that fucking button.

I wouldn't feel that way if they weren't awful and terrible people.

>Because I would assume it's your community of origin.
Just because someone is born into a race, religion, or whatever other identity doesn't mean it is their community of people. You were born a male; and I don't refer to you as a part of the "Male community" or even population of Americans.

>That you would wish the black community all die off without consideration that you are hardly alone among black people struggling within the black community, and struggling to improve it, is abhorrent.
You've never lived in it. And if you had, you would know. Most of them are not struggling to improve, rather struggling to take from others. Crabs in a bucket; and dangerous bottom feeders. It isn't even like they're doing this for fundamentals of life like food and water. Nope. It's TNS.

>monolithic
You're right. A lot of the 'communities' and pockets of people are not monolithic. But with enough bricks scattered they can sure make one.

>>14384

Look, at the end of the day, you're hoping for a huge classes of people to die, regardless of individual differences in attitudes or moral character, making broad sweeping generalizations of individuals based on problems of the cultures they orignate from, and no one chooses where they originate from. That you would see those who're innocent as acceptable losses is the part I find most disgusting. Taking about broad scopes doesn't matter after crossing that line. It's contradictary and antithetical to on the one hand say you give every individual a chance but then not give individuals a chance when wishing they die as an acceptable sacrifice to wipe out their culture, community or religion regardless of if they personally deserve it.

I expressed a hope for the worst for people with precisely for their selfish attitudes and a deep disgust with their grasping for bullshit conspiracy theory narratives sold to them by mainstream media that would so conveniently absolve them of being petty little shits and give them post-hoc justification for buying into this bullshit attempt to turn a basic precaution with basically no personal sacrifice into a political tribal signal.

Appealing to the consequences of what would happen to their loved ones is irrelevant cause just like how you said you weren't actually advocating to inact genocide, I never actually advocating to make something worse than death happen to the people in that situation, it was an expression of my sentiment just as much as you're expressing your sentiments, and I don't wish anything bad to happen to their families or other loved ones or neighbors by mere cultural association as an acceptable sacrifice. In fact I would wish the family members dependent on those selfish assholes find someone else they can depend upon.

I can trust a lot of people who I disagree with on a lot of issues, there are a lot people here I implicitly trust despite the differences in political ir moral sentiments. But I can't trust people with a moral sentiment so completely opposite my own highest moral value of seeing all individuals as individuals having a fundamental dignity they can only lose through their own actions and choices and not the actions of individuals they are associated with. I distrust the opposite of that because it comes off as sociopathic and xenophobic to me, and if we're going to share personal experiences, people who think like that have been stabbing me in the back for decades. Especially people who subscribe to that proto-facsist 'might makes right' philosophy, one subscribed to by many of the most back-stabby two-faced psychopathic narcissist who treated such behavior as acceptable given my weaknesses.

So I guess I'll just say don't bother trying to tell me you find me acceptable, I don't know if you're being sincere or if you're just another psycopath. There are a number of people here I believe when they show me friendliness and a number I don't. It's why I left ponychan 8 years ago and why I have no interest going back there anytime soon.

>>14386
Try not to take the following as an attack. Trust me, if I wanted to be unpleasant you would have known by now.

You can disagree with me all you'd like and disapprove of my opinions, but I don't appreciate you placing my sincerity in question. I love hard and I hate hard, but all of it comes from a place of honesty.
>That you would see those who're innocent as acceptable losses
Disgusting, yet pragmatic.
>I expressed a hope for the worst for people with precisely for their selfish attitudes and a deep disgust with their grasping for bullshit conspiracy theory narratives sold to them by mainstream media that would so conveniently absolve them of being petty little shits and give them post-hoc justification for buying into this bullshit attempt to turn a basic precaution with basically no personal sacrifice into a political tribal signal.
Hope is a powerful thing. However in that thread you were pretty explicit about your more violent wishes rather than reformed behaviors.
>But I can't trust people with a moral sentiment so completely opposite my own highest moral value of seeing all individuals as individuals having a fundamental dignity they can only lose through their own actions
That's a shame. I find wisdom comes from all sources and it is best to pick and choose what resonates with us. Keep an open mind, and digest thoughts. It's also a little confusing because I've lurked here for a while and have absolutely seen you clump people together, (mostly white people) though perhaps it's a slip of the tongue when you forget to specify. You're saying you can't trust me, but I feel like it's more so just because you don't like that I am essentially saying that at this point the entire population is so rotten that it would be best if they just didn't exist. Which I stand by.

>I distrust the opposite of that because it comes off as sociopathic and xenophobic to me, and if we're going to share personal

People can be xenophobic regardless if they are a sociopath or not. Also in this context, a difference in opinion wouldn't necessarily make you a sociopath or xenophobic.

One more thing: just because someone is a sociopath doesn't mean they are a bad person. Hell, even if someone is xenophobic doesn't make them a bad person.  

Hell, there are plenty of functional psychopaths and sociopaths that I've met who were not terrible people.

>might makes right
I can't only explain my view on that philosophy so many times.
>my weakness
What are you talking about?

>So I guess I'll just say don't bother trying to tell me you find me acceptable, I don't know if you're being sincere or if you're just another psycopath. There are a number of people here I believe when they show me friendliness and a number I don't. It's why I left ponychan 8 years ago and why I have no interest going back there anytime soon.
I would hope that I wouldn't have to tell someone that I find them acceptable. My cadence and individual treatment of others speaks for itself.

Old ponychan has long been dead.

>>14387
>Hope is a powerful thing.

Conspiracy theories that implicitly make scientists, trying their best to figure out solutions, acceptable targets of violence for being parts of a conspiracy theory to steal everyone's rights is hardly an expression of hope.

>However in that thread you were pretty explicit about your more violent wishes rather than reformed behaviors.

Yeah, it's an expression of frustration and rage with people who were contributing to the suffering my loved ones went through for cowardly and narcissistic reasons. I'm not going to accept someone's fragile self-esteem, or fear of accepting that sometimes no one knows the correct answers as being a more important concern than those whom they could directly hurt through their actios  or inactions. Like the entitled shitheads like these people back in the 80s ( https://youtu.be/2xcQIoh3FQQ?si=EhTCmAudjzxsY2XZ ) grasping at hyperbolic slippery-slopes about 'becoming communists' because they don't want to be legally liable for recklessly endangering others. These anti-masker narratives had the blatantly obvious appeal of absolving one of being selfish assholes. Especially people who were definitely capable of knowing better.

>I find wisdom comes from all sources and it is best to pick and choose what resonates with us. Keep an open mind, and digest thoughts.

Nothing you've expressed here is anything I haven't heard before from many people, both online and in real life, for decades, I've given such things lots of thought in the past and am pretty firm in my convictions about it at this point. I understand the emotional appeal of it, (what 'resonates' about it), but that doesn't make it any less disgusting to me. If someone were to threaten my life by someone who is afraid of people I am merely associated with, I could understand that it's motivated by fear and disgust, but empathizing or sympathizing with that isn't going to make me less enraged by it, in fact I will hate them more for being cowards, wanting to kill me out of fear of my neighbors. I am more sympathic to those in a similar position in Islamic communities than I am towards people who would ignore or deny their existence or even possiblity of their existence.

Beyond the disgusting apathy to innocent individuals, it has contributed to the very same vicious cycles that perpetuate their hatred of us.

>'s also a little confusing because I've lurked here for a while and have absolutely seen you clump people together, (mostly white people) though perhaps it's a slip of the tongue when you forget to specify.

I'm usually talking about white American culture, not white individuals. Just as I assume what you have to say about black people or muslims is ultimately about their culture, given context. Either way, I will not hope for genocides to wipe out cultures I see as having a lot of negative issues if it would mean killing innocents.

>People can be xenophobic regardless if they are a sociopath or not.

So? Doesn't make them less untrustworthy in my eyes. If some xenophobe sees me as some variation of being a 'traitor' for trying to excersize the self discipline to not be xenophobic, I'm not going to trust that their going to be honest with me if they don't see me as being worthy of honesty for that transgression. I've certainly experienced that a lot in the past.

>Also in this context, a difference in opinion wouldn't necessarily make you a sociopath or xenophobic.

I mean, what else would you call a complete lack of empathy for innocent people dying if not either a form of sociopathy/psycopathy or a xenophobia that doesn't even see those innocents as humans worth moral consideration for being outside one's in-group?

>just because someone is a sociopath doesn't mean they are a bad person.

Maybe, no one is intrinsically good or bad, it's not an intrisic trait of anyone, it's a descriptor for people's actions or intended consequences, but sociopaths aren't going to be constrained by empathy if they want to lie or be insincere with someone or have remorse if they do.

>Hell, even if someone is xenophobic doesn't make them a bad person.  

Everyone's a little xenophobic, social psychology calls it the in-group bias. It is a fact of humanity and being human. But 'is' does not imply 'ought'. It's also the root of a lot of unnecessary suffering in the world at large and even within communities. It can blind people to the suffering of innocents, blind to the basic humanity of other human beings. That's why one must have discipline against it and discipline against all the prejudices that come with it. I see people who embrace the label of xenophobe as being fundamentally irresponsible and a potential threat to others who they would not consider a part of their in-group, even if they are. Again this has happened to me multiple times before, in fact it's tragically common with queer kids from mostly straight communities who suddenly become part of the outgroup when it's discovered they aren't actually straight ... regardless of all other identities the queer kid might have, for example.

>I can't only explain my view on that philosophy so many times.

I know, I am very familiar with that philosophical position, I have been so for long before ever talking with you. I don't subscribe to it, at all. A tyrant isn't any less of a tyrant if they have the might to enforce a tyranical will. I do not subscribe to an authoritarian meta-ethic. Just because one has the power to coerce others into certain actions doesn't mean they can dictate what is good or what is evil.

>What are you talking about?

I have ADHD, Autism, Major Depressive Disorder, PTSD, CPTSD and Diabetes. I am not a powerful person by nature. I struggle with merely functioning in a world that requires people to be able to keep track of more things at one time than I am capable of doing, I struggle with impulse control issues, emotional dysregulation issues and I have long struggled with independence because of all those disabilities, I mean, this character I avatar as is from a webcomic about a 17 year old girl having her first stay in a poorly run psych ward after a failed suicide attempt, and I related a lot to her when thinking back to the first time I struggled with a major depressive episode. I am a weak person. But I'm sure as hell not going to accept that makes me worth less moral consideration than anyone else because of that, nor am I going to accept that anyone else like me is worth less consideration for not being able to dominate.

>>14386
>I expressed a hope for the worst for people with precisely for their selfish attitudes
An attitude that you prescribe upon them, one that doesn't have to exist beyond your own assumption.

>a basic precaution with basically no personal sacrifice
Assuming that everyone, like you evidently from your own statements, has the luxury to work either from home or in a situation where they don't need wear masks for extended periods of time, and again like you, lack particular issues of health that might make wearing a mask 8+ hours a day 5+ days a week a major problem.

But of course, it's they who're being selfish. Not you, who demands everyone conform to your worldview, and the behaviors demanded by your life circumstances, regardless of their own.
No, such people obviously are horrible, and deserve a fate worse than death...

>>14389
>These anti-masker narratives had the blatantly obvious appeal of absolving one of being selfish assholes.
Which, once again, is only one singular motive, you're latching onto like a leech.

Shall I say that everyone who demands or otherwise advocates for a welfare system is a lazy do-nothing who wants to get paid for sitting on the couch?
It's certainly applicable to some. Does that mean it's reasonable to extrapolate to all?

Of course not.
But, then again, if folk like you didn't have double standards, you'd have none at all.

>>14390

>An attitude that you prescribe upon them

Not really, it's the people with that precise attitude that identifies whom I direct my ire. Not people merely 'tired of masking'.

>Assuming that everyone, like you evidently from your own statements, has the luxury to work either from home or in a situation where they don't need wear masks for extended periods of time,

Which precisely describes whom in Texas I directed my ire towards.

>and again like you, lack particular issues of health that might make wearing a mask 8+ hours a day 5+ days a week a major problem.

None of that makes an anti-masker conspiracy theories any more true, or people any less intellectually irresponsible in in their strawgrasping to claim title of biggest victim in all this.

Get the fuck over yourself dude. Even if masking sucked for you it didn't mean it was all just to make you look bad. You aren't the center of the universe. No matter how much cherry-picking you do with the facts.

>Shall I say that everyone who demands or otherwise advocates for a welfare system is a lazy do-nothing who wants to get paid for sitting on the couch?
>It's certainly applicable to some. Does that mean it's reasonable to extrapolate to all?

And where did I extrapolate it to all people who were 'tired of mask' the very specific set of people I mentioned? That you'd expect that would include you is telling.

>>14392
>Not really, it's the people with that precise attitude that identifies whom I direct my ire.
Then there's been some level of confusion, as that's certainly not the impression I had gotten.
Though, given your later statements here, I rather doubt that's actually the case.

>Which precisely describes whom in Texas I directed my ire towards.
Nobody in Texas worked a 9 to 5 in such industries as food, or other service positions, that'd require them to wear a mask their entire shift?
I rather doubt that.

>None of that makes an anti-masker conspiracy theories any more true,
What conspiracy theories are we talking here?
Because simply calling them that doesn't make them false, either.

> or people any less intellectually irresponsible in in their strawgrasping to claim title of biggest victim in all this.
There's no "biggest victim". The point of the matter is simply that the whole "EVERYONE MUST MASK RIGHT NOW NO MATTER WHAT" bullshit is exactly that, bullshit.
It didn't help anyone.
It may well've harmed a lot of folk, considering again, wearing some chunk of cloth on your face, in many cases the same chunk of cloth for weeks on end, 8+ hours a day, is absolutely not healthy.

>: Even if masking sucked for you it didn't mean it was all just to make you look bad.
Nobody said that, you dishonest dipshit

Can't go five sentences without making up crap can you?

> You aren't the center of the universe.
Neither are you.
Hopefully you learn that before someone gets hurt.

>And where did I extrapolate it to all people who were 'tired of mask'
Where in any of my statements was "tired of masks" a necessity for my position?

You've injected that; Not me.

Again; This is your default tactic. Make shit up to move the argument.
Don't actually engage with what's said. Just keep saying something totally different, and maybe that'll win you shit.

Guess what?

It won't work with me.

>>14389
>I am a weak person
I don't think you're weak. Well, maybe not as weak as you believe to be. If anything, acknowledgement of perceived weaknesses and actual weakness; and the ability to grow, survive and flourish; to change, are the hallmarks of strength. You are a little sensitive, (and naive at times,) but sensitivity isn't always a bad thing. Just as being callous or pragmatic. The key is balance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULZkaoslGWk
>But I'm sure as hell not going to accept that makes me worth less moral consideration than anyone else because of that, nor am I going to accept that anyone else like me is worth less consideration for not being able to dominate.
Again, I'm gonna start with this. You said not tell you that I find you acceptable, but I do. I don't think that any of the things you said about you justifies anyone attempting to dominate you or control you. (Unless it's in the bedroom and you're into that, but that's a completely different topic.) Allow me to tell you a little about myself. I've told you before that I am a struggling alcoholic. Today is going to make three weeks of being sober by my own choice for the first time in over a decade. I'm depressed. I've also attempted to take my own life in the past. I've been through some pretty dark stuff in my life and to be honest, there are days were it almost feels surreal to be alive. I really shouldn't be alive.

>Youtube video
>First comment I read: "When that man said "1 or 2 beers", you know he meant 5 or 6"
I'm fucking dead, lmao.

>Conspiracy theories that implicitly make scientists, trying their best to figure out solutions, acceptable targets of violence for being parts of a conspiracy theory to steal everyone's rights is hardly an expression of hope.
>Everyone's rights
Actually, it's not our right to force others to wear masks or comply with quarantine procedures in public. A public state of emergency however can supersede such, which the government (state to state) would flip flop between declaring a state-of-emergency one moment and then saying it was okay the next. It's like they were trying to milk businesses juuuuust enough to keep money flowing before slamming us with quarantine procedures just to look like they were doing something.

But I digress.

>Associated
I've already said that a vast number of people are not just associated, but directly support and fund those acts of terrorism. If I had a bag of M&M's and 70& of them were poisonous/have had cross contamination with poisonous and tainted food, I would throw out the bag.

And I know what you mean. Believe it or not, I am highly empathetic, sympathetic, and compassionate. I understand how people feel, what it's like to go through hardship, and genuinely feel terrible for people, animals, even plants and other organisms. I don't enjoy the idea of killing, but understand that it is a part of nature; and that humans are a part of that nature. And believe it or not, humans aren't that far off from how animals behave. (And vice-versa.) It is unfortunate, but as it currently stands the world would be a much better place if Islam and Judaism were both eradicated from the face of the Earth. For me that is a fact. For you that is factually wrong, but in the end, they are our opinions. You find it disgusting that I would see them erased, and I find it disgusting that you can't see it would be worth innocent lives in the long run. But perhaps that is a little harsh and perhaps that is just the easy way of thinking things through.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zquFvSR10
If those numbers were to change and those people were to change then my opinion and desires might change.
>So? Doesn't make them less untrustworthy in my eyes. If some xenophobe sees me as some variation of being a 'traitor' for trying to excersize the self discipline to not be xenophobic, I'm not going to trust that their going to be honest with me if they don't see me as being worthy of honesty for that transgression. I've certainly experienced that a lot in the past.
Xenophobic is a pretty broad word used to describe things it wasn't intended to. Someone can be xenophobic and still see an outsider as one of their own.
>That's why one must have discipline against it and discipline against all the prejudices that come with it. I see people who embrace the label of xenophobe as being fundamentally irresponsible and a potential threat to others who they would not consider a part of their in-group, even if they are.
You don't owe it to anyone to force yourself to tolerate other people who are trying to change your way of life. Muslims go into other people's countries and try to turn it into a little version of their own shithole that they were apparently fleeing. People don't have to put up with that.

Just as muslims feel that they don't have to put up with 'the west' and our Haram way of life, I don't have to support their continued existence.
>I know, I am very familiar with that philosophical position, I have been so for long before ever talking with you
Then you would know that I haven't been using might makes right to justify anything.

Part of me knows I'm right, and a part of me knows I am wrong. I'm not always linear. As I said, I understand that not every single last Muslim is a bad person. They just follow a shitty set of rules written by a pedophilic warlord that allow a lot of people to justify their shitty behavior.  

>I know, I am very familiar with that philosophical position
That's ironic.

>It may well've harmed a lot of folk, considering again, wearing some chunk of cloth on your face, in many cases the same chunk of cloth for weeks on end, 8+ hours a day, is absolutely not healthy.

That absolutely can contribute to ENT and breathing related infections. The n95 masks were the only thing actually approved for preventing spread (a cloth could do it, but it wasn't an n95), and even then, the n95 masks were disposable, and should be changed frequently

>>14396
Also, having your hands submersed into soapie water for several hours is very bad for your skin.

Still people out there believing that you should wash your hands regularly.

>>14397
Sure, but it's rather different when the company says "You must keep your hands submerged in water the entire time you're at work or else you'll be fired".
Folk have bills. Rent isn't free, nor is food, nor is even medical care, for that matter.

>>14398
Companies that force their employees to adhere to "hygienic" standards should be forcibly closed down tbh.

>>14397
You should..

Washing your hands doesn't mean to soak them. Soaking them in 'soapy water' isn't going to disinfect your hands.

The act of using soap and water is to literally and physically wash any infectants or contamination off of your hands, and the act of washing hands saw a skyrocket in the number of people who happened to not die of complications after a procedure, or even an examination. This is why proper hand washing techniques are used at a minimum of 20 seconds. (Which isn't going to hurt your hands.)

If you aren't washing your hands frequently, especially as a professional then you're just a disgusting pig.

>>14399
Who the fuck let the nurgling in this thread?

This comic is sad.

>>14406
It hurts when I cum

They're having riots and pogroms that are instigated by pro-israeli types on behalf of Israel. When even your "nationalists" are pawns of foreign powers, it's a fucking wrap for the UK

>>14415

"instigated by pro-israeli types on behalf of Israel"

Do go on and explain

People keep saying the UK is dying, but it still exists. When will they finally kill it so we can finally be done with the whole ridiculous thing?

>>14449
Someday the dream of Welsh independence will be realised. Owain Glyndŵr's legacy is eternal.