/townhall/ - Townhall

The whole thing was a shitshow on both sides.

I think it's time to euthanize both of them.

Watching just ten minutes of debate "highlights" was one of the most depressing moments of my life.

Without hyperbole, I will compare the emotional negativity of seeing those two walking, talking skeletons flail about to how bad I've felt visiting family members in the hospital after them being diagnosed with cancer.

Biden and Trump are both at a level of being so obviously mentally and physically ill at a shocking level that whatever outcome in November happens will be a disaster. I'm done. I'm fucking done. I'm not joking or exaggerating that this gives me PTSD type feelings watching family members with cancer. These two men belong in institutions with nurses. I wouldn't even trust them to babysit a pet dog. God help us.

>>13683
Biden did worse than Trump but that's like saying a fat man beat a paraplegic in a race.

It was a disaster of a debate.
Biden was ranging from barely functioning babbling to cocaine-fueld ranting, with remarkably outdated talking points that usually had been contradicted years ago already.

Trump, meanwhile, didn't answer a single damn question, and was remarkably bland and lackluster throughout.
Maybe it was a strategy, let Biden sink himself, but the net result was he looked weak and tame. Not really what you want in a 'populist' candidate.

>>13737
Neither of them do. As a matter of objective fact. And I'm voting Biden. Not really like I've got a choice.

Call me pessimistic, but I think most people want Biden to be elected and quickly die in office.

>>13747

I just want them both dead

>>13747
Doubt it.  Considering how quickly everything's gone into the toilet, I think it's safe to say most folk would gladly return to Trump where if nothing else at least they could afford groceries.

I used to be able to go out to eat, enjoy a burger for 7$. Now, that price has doubled, and making it myself isn't even much better.
Groceries for the week've ratcheted to what I'd spend in a month, and gas is terrifying to budget around.

Besides; I really, really don't want a corrupt prosecutor as president.

>>13750
What is Trump going to do that is going to address economic hardships like grocery prices and gas prices?

The only thing I've heard is that he wants to basically put a tariff on all foreign goods, which I can't imagine having any impact beyond "making basically everything more expensive".

>>13753
>What is Trump going to do that is going to address ... gas prices?
For starters, he can try to undo the things that Joe Biden did that made energy prices more expensive.  E.g., Biden cancelled the Keystone XL pipeline.

>>13754
Is this ChatGPT??

Basically... I'm like... this:

>

I don't want to die from Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security being eliminated while environmental destruction goes on overdrive and any notion of public goods and services or even general civilization goes out the window.

I'll accept a lot of inflation and a lot of other horrible pains if it means not having to destroy the foundations of the Republic in the names of capitalism and of social tradition.

New polling is bad news for Biden:
https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808204695548448807

>>13755
Yes.

Kamala and Newsom aren't polling much better than Biden.  Buttigieg and Whitmer look stronger.

https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808209045251060034

>>13756
You don't think massive rampant inflation, rising prices on basic necessities, and constant antagonism to potentially kick off a war against a major power risk the foundations of the Republic?

Seems to me, at least looking historically, this is what usually ends up killing nations.
I mean, to be fair, I guess I can't really say I'm against it. Sooner things collapse, sooner we get the balkanization of the United States, and end politics by distant powers in places they've never even seen.
But, I'm cheering that collapse. You seem to be opposed to it.

>>13760
>massive rampant inflation, rising prices on basic necessities
Which are not the fault of disabled and elderly people. Nor of the homeless. Nor of any other group of suffering, marginalized people.

Killing Medicare and Social Security alongside other Republican changes, from getting rid of college scholarships and grants to closing community public parks to making it easier for corporations to pollute in poor neighborhoods to everything else, will make the economy much, much worse. Not better. Same thing with them promising more gigantic tax giveaways to the richest of the rich. Same thing too with the Republicans vowing to get away with anti-discrimination laws in employment, housing, and like everything else financial.

And that's not even touching the idea that supposedly exterminating labor unions off the face of the Earth is somehow beneficial. It's not. It's just a reverse form of Robin Hood. Making the poor poorer to make the elite more elite.

The Republicans can scream all they want that people like me caused this economic crisis and that Elon Musk, Paris Hilton, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, et al will save us. It's a lie. A simple lie. An excuse to get people like you to aim your hatred at a phony target who has nothing whatsoever to do with your troubles. Labor union activists and the man in a walker at the line in your local library who can barely breathe aren't hurting you. Those clinking martini glasses in mansions are hurting you.

>>13761
Sure, but that wasn't really the point.
>killing social security
It's going to need cuts eventually. I'm certainly never going to see a dime, despite all that I've put in over my lifetime. The money doesn't come out of nowhere, and it was never intended to be a magical money-printer.

Besides; The rates of poverty among the elderly are nowhere near the same, when it comes to younger generations. If the idea is to help the people who most need it, this is certainly not doing it.
If anything, it's what you describe, a "gigantic tax giveaway to the rich".

> labor unions
While I'm sure there's some useful labor unions somewhere, most all my dealings with them have been of beurocrats and pencil-pushers forcibly taking your money as a part of the hiring contract, no option to do otherwise, and never once helping me or my family when we'd need it.

Plainly put, unions have become a part of the system, and are just as bad as employers.
They work hand in hand with corporate types, far more concerned with lining their pockets than helping any workers.
If it's not run from the ground level, by workers themselves, it's always going to be a sham. Especially so when the state gets involved in their continuation, with a pile of laws ensuring workers have no choice but to join shoddy organizations, and consequently have no real means to organize outside of them.

>>13760
>constant antagonism to potentially kick off a war against a major power
I would say the exact opposite.

Telling the CCP that they can take over Taiwan and otherwise sucking up to them in the most slobbering way possible is a sign of weakness to the dictatorship and makes Americans look like idiots who just innately want to be doormats.

If you want to avoid horrific pain and suffering leading up to a major war, then you don't go for appeasement. You strengthen yourself. You make allies. You stand up.

Why would giving the CCP Taiwan work out any differently than giving Hitler Austria? And then the Czech lands? Why would you, as a tyrant, even consider standing back from your Empire building plans if your rivals keep folding?

It's also hard for me at a basic level to have that much sympathy for the CCP now given that we as Americans are just getting over a global pandemic that they largely caused due to their horrible governance. And let's not forget that we're talking about one of the evilest organizations in human history that's been actively promoting war, torture, slavery, genocide, and more for decades upon decades. I really can't see them as being that different from the Nazis. Ask the Tibetians.

>>13762
Do you really not get that a lot of people, like myself, are only alive because of things such as Medicare?

And in your capitalist dystopia I would be in a coffin along with them?

This isn't an exaggeration.

If my lungs stop working properly again, and I go to the hospital again for that, then I don't want to die. Please don't make me die. Please don't make people like me die. Please allow for basic civilization such that disadvantaged people are allowed to exist based on simple human decency.

It's hard for me to argue this. Civilization is a good thing. Public goods all should around exist. Fire stations should exist. Hospitals should exist. Libraries should exist. Parks should exist. Museums should exist. I don't want to live by the "law of the jungle" and the "state of nature". I want 911 to exist. This is America. We're not all isolated sociopaths only out to save our own skins with no morality. I don't want to live in either anarchy or something approximating it.

>>13764
I was speaking about social security. If you want my stance on medicare, I've the same complaint I always have; The american healthcare system is built around insurance, and is, consequently, fundamentally broken.

You make a lot of assumptions about me in your post here. I actually want a general government-funded healthcare system overall. Ideally with private options, that as consequence of needing to compete with a free option, ought inherently have their prices far more competitive, and subsequently, affordable.
But as far as medicare is concerned, it's a moneysink for the same reason as any insurance based healthcare in America is, whether that be private or public for that matter.
Medical clinics take absurd rates, for minor things, and the whole system suffers for it.

>>13765
This makes no sense.

The system is flawed. It is not flawed because of people like me. I shouldn't be demanded to feel guilt here. Or shame. I shouldn't be regarded as somebody who should've been aborted instead of born.

The Republican talking points that America is being destroyed because of people like me, acting as human-sized parasites leeching off resources from superior human beings such as yourself of better health and better other things, and that causing us to suffer makes America great again... how am I supposed to feel about that?

The American economic system is a mess. That means that you fix it. That doesn't mean that you elect a dark triad sadist narcissistic sociopath like Trump to intentionally destroy the economy completely with him triggering a debt crisis and inequality crisis. And then supposedly you rebuild a utopia from the ashes.

Just fix it. Do normal activism. Normal social change. Normal politics. Be nice to your neighbors.

>>13767
>The system is flawed. It is not flawed because of people like me. I shouldn't be demanded to feel guilt here. Or shame. I shouldn't be regarded as somebody who should've been aborted instead of born.
Cool. Didn't say that.

>The Republican talking points that America is being destroyed because of people like me
Is that the talking point, or are you just saying that due to your presupposition that republicans are evil monsters?

>>13769
>are you just saying that due to your presupposition that republicans are evil monsters?

I think most Republicans are people with misordered moral priorities. Not lacking them, but keeping the wrong ones as most important.

Like loyalty, to me,  it seems like Republicans are too apathetic or too comfortable with the actual genuine fascist monsters in their party seemingly because they would see it as betrayal to acknowledge and decry the monsters. It disturbs me that anyone would hold any loyalty unconditionally. Like I love and am loyal to my family, but if any of them asked me to hurt innocent people, for the sake of that loyalty, then as far as I am concerned, they wouldn't be my family anymore, no hesitation. Some things are far worse than disloyalty.

>>13770
I suspect you and I have wildly different definitions of fascism.
But all your talk of loyalty sounds suspect to begin with, in truth. So I suppose it could be built on that same flawed understanding.

Is it actually loyalty from these Republicans, or is it simply not agreeing with you and your rationale?

>>13769
Republicans view me and people like me as evil monsters. The feeling isn't mutual. I don't hate them. I just want them to stop hating us. Stop trying to hurt us. Stop trying to take away our human rights. That's it.

As far as disability rights go, I'd like to point out that the State that I'm desperately trying to leave doesn't even as a matter of public policy want us to be able to fucking have the right to vote, even:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/us/politics/disability-voting-rights.html

Oof, Biden is now at less than 50% chance of being the Dem nominee.

>>13771

It's something right wing have been doing for decades, the moderate right courts the radical right for the sake of right-wing solidarity.

Plenty of them are good people but are unwilling to see or acknowledge the other ones they're allied with like the unironic white nationalist or the theocrats, or seemingly don't care, or just embrace denial that they're right-wing totalitarians (fascist). From my perspective it's like the more moderate Republicans have been making deals with the demigogues devils in the wake of the damage to their electability in the wake of the W. Bush administration.

And no, it's not a matter of just "my rationale" trying to explain that, it's a matter of a lifetime of experience interacting with them considering I used to be a moderately conservative republican, raised by republican parents (one of whom was explicitly, but moderately racist), with a lot of now life-long friends, whom I grew up with, from where I grew up in Texas, who are still conservative in their 40s.

It's not like I don't understand a moderate, conservative viewpoint on the high value they always put on loyalty.

>>13772
If you're going to post a link to an article used for your argument, the least you could do is use an archiver so we don't have to subscribe just to see it...
Who am I kidding, though. You probably didn't even read it.

This entire thing is about mail-in voting, not forbidding disabled people from voting.
The extent of the article's clickbait title is that a lady had to physically go to a voting location, like everyone else, and it took her a bit before help was available.
Bluntly put, I think your claim is bullshit.
But, then, like I said, I think you just read the title and posted the link without ever even reading it.

>>13775
>the moderate right courts the radical right for the sake of right-wing solidarity.
As opposed to the moderate left, which has totally never courted the extremist left for the sake of solidarty in voting blocks...

If anything, my experience has been the direct opposite; Republicans are far more willing to condemn significant sections of their voting block, for minor offenses of the modern sensibilities. They are still, though it's certainly lessened thanks to its overuse, effected by accusations of racism or bigotry, and will routinely distance themselves from candidates or individuals with such labels, well before the claims're even validated.

Then again, might be the same thing as earlier; What you call "radical right"...

>And no, it's not a matter of just "my rationale" trying to explain that,
>goes on to literally describe how it's their personal experience that they are using to justify the view
...Yeah. Rationale was the polite way to say it if anything.

>It's not like I don't understand a moderate, conservative viewpoint on the high value they always put on loyalty.
Again, I just don't see it.
Nothing you've said even denotes loyalty, besides.
And again, their routine willingness to condemn and distance before the facts're out over hitpieces rather adamatly show they have none.
If anything, the lack of loyalty has been a consistent problem, for me. They axe before the facts're out, instead of simply waiting for the claims to be confirmed.

What's up with Kamala saying “what can be, unburdened by what has been”?
https://twitter.com/thejcoop/status/1806867772988625316

Just going to also mention again that I was a proud Republican when they were sane back from 2008 onwards until Obama's second term and the rise of Trump. No regrets voting for McCain and Romney. They would've been excellent Presidents.

The GOP going from a moderate Party that accepts disabled people, Jews, transgender people, bisexual people, those in mixed-race relationships, and so on in leadership positions and otherwise supports basic morality in my lifetime into a far-right extremist Party based on racial and religious nationalism is nightmarish. Imagine going back in a time machine to me at a Romney event and telling me about the supposed "Jewish-homosexual conspiracy to groom our kids" and how mass shootings could maybe be justified. I would've thought you were an escaped mental patient. And now both of those things are mandatory GOP orthodoxy.

Hell, you used to be able to be an openly gay man and be a Republican cabinet member. Bush did that. He had no problems with that. The slide from center-right ethics to quasi-Nazi ethics has been shocking.

https://edition.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/09/bush.aids.02/index.html

The Republican Party used to be this.

Seriously, read the story.

I can't tell you how badly I miss the days when I could be in a college based group of people with different skin colors, religions, ethnic origins, sexual orientations, and so on with all of us accepting and valuing each other's diverse experiences as Repiblicans. Jesus fucking Christ. Why. Why Trump.

Think about how things used to be.

You could be out of the closet and in the fucking Cabinet of a Republican Presidency. Once upon a time. Before they lost their fucking minds. And now us LGBT people are nothing but cockroaches to be stamped out because we've destroyed civilization, apparently.

Why the change?

>>13777
>As opposed to the moderate left, which has totally never courted the extremist left for the sake of solidarty in voting blocks...

They don't, the extreme left typically refuses to vote, embracing fantasies of 'direct action' instead, but doing nothing anyway. The democrats are barely even leftist, they're basically social liberals that don't see the existence of a welfare state as patch for the flaws of capitalism as contradictory to the ideal state of classical liberalism,  they tend to completely reject leftist ideals of social ownership of the means of production, which is why leftist hate them as much as they hate the right, the only reason they're labeled as 'leftist' is because of their tendency towards cultural progressivism,  which is kind of inherit to classical liberalism anyway and it's rejection of artificial hierarchies for more organic meritocracy. And even like, old fashioned new deal labor democrats like Bernie Sanders were often barely acknowledged by 'leftist' mainstream media outlets like CNN or MSNBC in 2020. The extreme left is barely even capable of solidarity whatsoever, they get real caught up in ideologically purity testing each other till they focus on in-fighting above everything else. Monty Python satirized this in the movie Life of Brian back in the 70s cause it was just as true back then as it is now.


>>goes on to literally describe how it's their personal experience that they are using to justify the view

That's kinda missing the point. It means I am familiar with conservatism political philosophy and the culture rooted in. Also, it's an explanation not a justification, I am literally just explaining a viewpoint, not making a normative argument or anything.

>They are still, though it's certainly lessened thanks to its overuse, effected by accusations of racism or bigotry, and will routinely distance themselves from candidates or individuals with such labels, well before the claims're even validated.

I think people like elected officials such as Marjorie Taylor Greene and other MAGA Republicans in the house are a perfect example of the kind of flip-floppy nature of that distancing, when on the one hand MTG will cozy up with self-described 'catholic facists' like Nick Fuentes and deny that they even knew them on the other hand, and then go on to be a frequent call-in guest on InfoWars (a show that now frequently features Nick Fuentes while MTG is still calling in), and try to tap in to Alex Jones' far-right paleoconservative audience. It certainly did nothing to threaten MTGs reelection in 2022 either. And if any of her constituents are like other Republican voters who value partisan loyalty, they most likely hate it but feel they have to vote for her anyway, or cope with it by embracing denialism.

I knew plenty of family and friends back in Texas in 2016 that voted for Trump despite openly hating him more than Hillary because of their commitment to the party. Many of them who also expressed similar feelings about other Republican candidates in local political elections over the decades.

But my original point was that I don't see most Republicans as monsters. But in my own experiences, of being treated like a traitor for becoming skeptical of conservative political theory, and then being explicitly called a traitor by many of my (now former) republican friends, over my objections to the Bush administration's push to invade Iraq on very flimsy pretexts, I recognized that they valued loyalty to such a degree that letting my misgivings and doubts about supporting the Iraq invasion and becoming a conscientious objector was seen as tantamount to treason. While politicians at the time were pretty transparently being emotionally manipulative when they would ask why war protesters hated America, I wouldn't doubt the sincerity of Republicans in the community around me at the time when they would ask the same of me. Unless all of them felt it was okay to kill innocent civilians for the sake of securing oil reserves in Iraq, but you see, I'm not that kind bitch to assume that about my friends cause they weren't,  and aren't, monsters.

But fortunately, in the past 4 years, many of those same friends have jumped ship from the Republican party because of how disgusted they were by January 6th. So maybe now in your experience the Republicans are starting to see other things as more important than party loyalty (or rather their loyalty to the constitution and the peaceful transfer of power insulated them from all the emotional appeals to believe flimsy conspiracy theories about election fraud). And others I know have abandoned ship and gone independent given the Trumpist take over of the Republican party, leaving behind those whose party loyalty biases them against seriously engaging with any information that might challenge the justification for that loyalty and dismissing it as fake news or part of some conspiracy.

>>13779
>No regrets voting for McCain and Romney.

I miss when these kind of Republicans were the ones that won nominations

>>13781
>  and then being explicitly called a traitor by many of my (now former) republican friends
Back in the 2000s I also had a few far right people in my online circle.
There was a concept openly talked about in how they believed in the death penalty for murderers, pedophiles and traitors.
This gets kind of scary when they call people of diverging politics and ideologies "traitors". like, if it's someone stealing classified info and selling it to the enemies, I can sort of see a case for "treason", but no, it's about supporting immigrants, being a liberal, or being LGBTQ.

Or pedophiles it is nowadays. People fantasising about hunting down and shooting pedophiles. You think, hey, they're taking on people who rape kids. But nowadays, anyone they don't like is a pedophile and death threats are openly made.

>>13783

Yeah, nothing makes one more of a tool of corruption more than unconditional loyalty out of principle. It's one thing to be lacking in critical thinking skill or sanity, but it's something else all together when one is a conformist out of guilt

>>13779
>McCain
Oof.
That guy had a heap of issues. I definitely wouldn't want to say "no regrets" if I voted for him...

>accepts disabled people, Jews, transgender people, bisexual people, those in mixed-race relationships, and so on in leadership positions and otherwise supports basic morality in my lifetime
Still does all that.

>Party based on racial and religious nationalism
It's definitely not.

>and telling me about the supposed "Jewish-homosexual conspiracy to groom our kids" and how mass shootings could maybe be justified.
Nobody's doing that.

>And now both of those things are mandatory GOP orthodoxy.
They aren't.

I really don't know what I'm supposed to say about all this deranged fantasy you've written out here.
It's just so obviously not true, it's insane.

>>13781
>The democrats are barely even leftistc
Not much a shocker, I suppose, but this is liable to be the fundamental cause of this lot. Including your refusal to consider further left individuals, being that you'd consider them 'moderate' at that stage...

> It means I am familiar with conservatism political philosophy and the culture rooted in
Based off of personal experiences around family, and not actual ideology, writings, philsophical underpinnings, or anything beyond the layman's understanding of your family and friends, whom I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've made a lot of presuppositions of their rationale as well rather than base it on their own explanations and reasoning.

>Many of them who also expressed similar feelings about other Republican candidates in local political elections over the decades.
Sure. This isn't loyalty, you're describing, though. This is pragmatism, wanting to avoid the left's policies.

If my choice is a wet fart or a pile of shit, I'll probably vote for the wet fart.

> called a traitor by many of my (now former) republican friends, over my objections to the Bush administration's push to invade Iraq on very flimsy pretexts,
Which sounds like a specific issue of your friends, not a whole political party.
Opposition to the pile of wars in the middle east has certainly been allowed in the party for a long, long time now.

I'm willing to accept that you have friends who're just shitty people.
That wouldn't surprise me.
But you shouldn't conflate your own personal bad experiences as though they're representative of a whole.

>But fortunately, in the past 4 years, many of those same friends have jumped ship from the Republican party because of how disgusted they were by January 6th.
Yeah, this just makes me doubt you more, to be frank.

I don't see how anyone'd look at January 6th where the supposed bloodless 'insurrection" occured where the only casualty was an unarmed woman, and say "I can't support republicans any more!"...

But then, if it's the same friends who call you a traitor for not supporting the war in Afghanistan...
They could just be idiots who regurgitate whatever the TV tells them.

>>13785
>>13785
>Still does all that.

When convenient


>It's definitely not

Way too tolerant of it though

>Nobody's doing that.

Yeah, I'm sure all the groomer rhetoric coming out of the right-wing corners of youtube, facebook, reddit, 4chan, and Qanon groups are just an elaborate psyop amirite?

>It's just so obviously not true, it's insane.

Man, you're projection is insane.

>>13786
>Not much a shocker, I suppose ... being that you'd consider them 'moderate' at that stage...

What the hell do you think 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' even mean?

The radical left's position is anti-capitalist. Social liberalism is pro-capitalist with safety nets. If you think that is radical leftist too, then what the fuck drugs are you taking and where can O get some?

>Based off of personal experiences around family ... it on their own explanations and reasoning.

Oh my god the hypocrisy of this assertion is unreal.

My dad was a defense attorney with a doctorate of jurisprudence and a bachelor's of political science. He was even briefly a former GOP politician who ran for a position as a judge in Texas. I was very familiar with conservative political theory cause I learned it from him. I have a ton of fond memories of time in the 90s and 2000s, when he was still alive having discussions about politics over dinner.

Your the one presupposing here. And it's hilariously hypocritical.

>Sure. This isn't loyalty, you're describing, though ... I'll probably vote for the wet fart.

Damn dude, presuppose much? I base that off many conversations I was there to witness, and many principles they would appeal to when trying to convince me to vote for their candidates in those discussions.

>>13786
>Which sounds like a specific issue of your friends, not a whole political party.

It was part of the political rhetoric in the right-wing media ecosystem of the time, especially the local one's at the time. It was literally a meme online to ridicule the phrase "why do you hate America?"

>Opposition to the pile of wars in ... for a long, long time now.

Uh huh. And it didn't used to be allowed before the neocons lost control of the Republican party after Obama got elected. It's like, the entire reason my dad was effectively bullied out when it came to his own objections to the invasion of Iraq. As well as a number of other people I knew as well.

>I don't see how anyone'd look at January 6th where the supposed bloodless 'insurrection" occured where the only casualty was an unarmed woman, and say "I can't support republicans any more!"...

Is it that much of a stretch of the imagination that someone might look at Trump's rhetoric, notice the logical incoherency of it and then recognize that people who bought that bullshit were displaying an lack of intellectual discipline against wishful thinking?

And what does it matter if only 1 person died? We all saw the massive amount of footage of people who were there shot themselves, we saw the gallows they erected and heard the chants of "Hang Mike Pence!". Not every conservative was so credulous to trump when even the majority of people loyal to him in the administration failed to find any evidence of election fraud. The lack of critical thought on the part of those 'protesters' betrays a lot of cowardly denial and wishful thinking which was way too much for many of my old conservative friends. So tell me again how they aren't true Scotsmen. Tell me again how they were RINOs or some bullshit like that.

>>13786
>>13787

I might also point out the irony that my explanation for why I don't see Republicans as monsters, and that I used to be one, still triggers you none the less.

>>13785
I'm not sure why I keep talking to you when you have no mental connection to reality and your response to people talking about facts is to just go that it's a "deranged fantasy".

I voted for McCain. I voted for Romney. I saw Romney speak in public. I cheered for him. I clapped for him. I recorded videos of him that I put online. I donated money to my local Republican Congressman. I volunteered for his campaign. I can go on and on. I even attended CPAC.

If you want to, go back to the archives of someplace like Ponychan and look at me from 2012 condemning Obama for having what I saw as terrible economic policies! I vented about him a lot! I even said after Obama was re-elected that I was afraid that there would be another recession due to his administration! Or just go back to what I posted when I attended CPAC! Seriously... go and look! Does that sound like some kind of "liberal cuck" to you?

I keep telling you things that are as true as 2+2=4, and you keep living an alternate reality. I wonder if you think that the Moon landings happened. If the Holocaust happened. If Obama was born in America. If the Earth is round or flat. If global warming fears are just a big leftist conspiracy. Like... my God.

Look. I was a Republican. I was a committed Republican. And then they went batshit fucking insane and kicked me out. Alongside millions upon millions of other people. We can't just not exist just because we don't fit your imaginary narrative.

You used to be able to accept the reality of climate change and be a Republican. You could support same-sex marriage. You could support Medicare. You could support Medicaid. You could support Social Security. You could support all kinds of civil rights laws, especially for disabled people.

Hell, like, George Bush Sr. is one of my personal fucking heroes and will be until I die for his courageous leadership in pushing for the Americans With Disabilities Act. He saved lives. He was a Republican. And he believed that governments should serve the people and not the other way around.

Does the fact that Trump has basically pissed on the graves of McCain and Bush Sr. while Romney has voted to impeach Trump twice represent anything to you? Like at all?

Today's "conservatives" would be regarded as "neo-Nazis" in 2008. Today's "liberals" would be regarded as "conservatives" in 2008. This is just how it is.

>>13785
>>13789
I'm just going to also state for the record that if the Republicans had nominated somebody sensible in 2016, then I would've happily voted for him or her against Hillary Clinton, whom I think is... not exactly the sort of individual that I'd like to ever see President. Even though I did vote for HC. For the sake of sanity.

>>13789
>Does that sound like some kind of "liberal cuck"
Didn't say that. Stop jumping at ghosts.

> If global warming fears are just a big leftist conspiracy.
Dunno about "conspiracy", but certainly the doomsday date has moved multiple times in my lifetime.

I'd say it's well-meaning schmucks and those who're happy to take advantage of them.
There's a reason I suspect that all these green groups universally oppose nuclear, despite how quickly it'd solve the major issues of fossil fuels.

> And then they went batshit fucking insane and kicked me out.
Considering the wide variety of types I've run in to in that lot, I doubt it.
If the RINOs and the libertarians can live under one roof, I don't think it was them going "batshit insane" that resulted in you getting kicked out. If that even occurred.

>You used to be able to accept the reality of climate change and be a Republican. You could support same-sex marriage. You could support Medicare. You could support Medicaid. You could support Social Security. You could support all kinds of civil rights laws, especially for disabled people.
Still can.

> George Bush Sr. is one of my personal fucking heroes
That's rather sad. But you do you.
One act doesn't really absolve the man's myriad of other issues, most notably as I see it pretty much kickstarting the perpetual cycle of wars in the middle east.

>Does the fact that Trump has basically pissed on the graves of McCain and Bush Sr. while Romney has voted to impeach Trump twice represent anything to you? Like at all?
Not really; I don't like Bush, and McCain was worse. I know little of Romney, admittedly, save that his campaign was remarkably weak and he felt exceptionally out of touch.

>Today's "conservatives" would be regarded as "neo-Nazis" in 2008
I doubt it.
Now if you said in 2016... Well, the narrative was for a bit anyone right of Stalin was a nazi. Least by some. So I could buy it.

>>13790
> Even though I did vote for HC.
I'm not surprised.
You seem to have a history of loving establishment stooges, from what you've said.

"Vice-President Trump"
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/11/joe-biden-press-conference-updates.html

Bernie Sanders for president!!

Looks like Biden is getting Stumped