[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]

/townhall/ - Townhall

A place for civilized animals
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
File
Flags  
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

[Return][Go to bottom]

 No.13574

File: 1717188259832.jpg (324.92 KB, 1080x2039, 1080:2039, Screenshot_20240531_153819….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Assume for the sake of argument that you don't have personal empathy and you don't have personal ethics besides pure utilitarianism, and so either the Chinese military or other agents working for the Chinese state killing huge numbers of innocent civilians while starting a new conflict doesn't inherently bother you at all.

Is there any rationalist, utilitarian argument to do anything to either prevent China from taking over other lands or from punishing the Chinese if they act?

What's in it for those r.e. rational self-interest? Is it nothing? Or maybe not? What's the argument for "don't murder people who're your neighbors" if you're a rationalist who doesn't consider your neighbors' worths to effect your own decision making? How can one argue with somebody like Scott Alexander from 'LessWrong' when he says that he just doesn't feel any empathy or anything else towards people that he doesnt personally know?

 No.13578

>>13574
>Is there any rationalist, utilitarian argument to do anything to either prevent China from taking over other lands or from punishing the Chinese if they act?
Sure.
I am not Chinese, so they may be a threat to me later.

 No.13582

File: 1717210755306.jpg (40.64 KB, 712x712, 1:1, 1485428441941.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>Assume for the sake of argument that... you don't have personal ethics besides pure utilitarianism, and so ... killing huge numbers of innocent civilians ... doesn't inherently bother you at all.
Error.  The death of innocent people would typically entail a massive negative utility, both in terms of the direct suffering and loss caused and in broader societal impacts like fear, insecurity, and the erosion of trust in social institutions.  Thus a utilitarian would be massively bothered by this.  (This holds for average utilitarians, total utilitarians, and basically for any other reasonable way of aggregating utility.)

>How can one argue with somebody like Scott Alexander from 'LessWrong' when he says that he just doesn't feel any empathy or anything else towards people that he doesnt personally know?
[citation needed]
Also, even if he doesn't personally *feel* empathy, that doesn't mean shit, since he is predominantly a thinker, not a feeler.  

 No.13584

>>13578
Maybe. It's clearly a possible way to react. This would depend on what nation-state that you're currently a citizen of. And your sense of threat depends as well as on your own view of what your citizenship means. Obviously, I shouldn't make any inherent assumptions of you personally. Or anybody else in this thread.

If I'm picking somewhat randomly from either Canada or the U.S. to find a certain John Q. Public who's staunchly supportive either of capitalism or of social conservativism such that he shares the inherent Chinese regime's opposition to Judaism, homosexuality, labor union activists, environmentalists, transgender people, and so on, wouldn't Chinese state success be his success? And his success be their success? For his rational self-interest, wouldn't he want larger business expansion and economic development?

At the same time, I could pick an alternate European dude (a Jesse Q. Public) who's, say, a firmly environmentalist-minded person who wants ever increased global pollution of all waters as well as all other natural lands stopped. He'd be rationally working as an anti-Chinese activist in reaction? Right? Naturally, somebody motivated by French, German, Scottish, etc patriotism would surely seek to prevent foreign financial domination of their homelands, I think we'd agree?

It's complicated. I suppose being able to fall back on 'A' if you're a 'B' (like American patriotism if you're a U.S. military veteran) is a neat framework for debate. Or even just discussion without debate.

 No.13585

>>13582
Well, if you're a rationalist billionaire, say, you could choke an innocent victim to death with your bare hands and then pay the family something like $3 million in a way that makes that family better off in their view of their own circumstances (according to you). Hell, Elon Musk could recreationally nuke whole cities and then rebuild them in a way that long-run utility in those locations is higher. If he was a rationalist. He could do that. IT's all axiology without any higher morality involved.

Eh. The problem for me is I don't really have the ability to operate like a human being with no ethics and no empathy like a Scott Alexander since all kinds of moral things from national patriotism to altruism for one's neighbors to social trust to reverence for tradition and so on that rationalists don't have in their brains and souls I personally have. I still want to understand rationalists all the same though even if they're essentially an alien species from another solar system to me. Tech billionaire rationalists especially have a LOT of money and power currently so I kind of don't have a voice but to get them in some intiuitive way.

 No.13593

>>13585
>Well, if you're a rationalist billionaire, say, you could choke an innocent victim to death with your bare hands and then pay the family something like $3 million in a way that makes that family better off in their view of their own circumstances (according to you). Hell, Elon Musk could recreationally nuke whole cities and then rebuild them in a way that long-run utility in those locations is higher. If he was a rationalist. He could do that. IT's all axiology without any higher morality involved.
LOL WUT?!  Where are you getting that insanity from???

>>13585
>a human being with no ethics and no empathy like a Scott Alexander
Enough with that defamatory nonsense!

 No.13598

>How can one argue with somebody like Scott Alexander from 'LessWrong' when he says that he just doesn't feel any empathy or anything else towards people that he doesnt personally know?

I don't know who that is and I can't think of any reason to care about his opinion.


[]
[Return] [Go to top]
[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]