/townhall/ - Townhall

To be honest, I've yet to see anybody who's pro-Palestine and pro-Ukraine at the same time. I don't think that this grouping actually exists in any real context, as a movement with serious numbers behind it.

I'd simplify current foreign policy debates in English speaking countries, thus, to something like:

>[Classic Left] Pro-Russia & Pro-Iran & Pro-Palestine & Pro-China / Destroy Western civilization etc

>[Classic Center & Center-Left & Center-Right] Pro-Ukraine & Pro-Women-Life-Freedom & Pro-Israel & Pro-Taiwan / Western civilization is neat

>[Classic Right] Pro-Russia & Pro-Iran & Pro-Palestine & Pro-China / Destroy Western civilization etc

>[Fringe Other Right] Pro-Russia & Pro-Iran & Pro-Israel & Pro-China / Destroy Western civilization but the Israelis will help us somehow etc

My personal opinion as an extremely depressed and disaffected center-left type is that Western civilization is halfway decent and halfway a dumpster fire, but it's the best system we got. So, let's make it better. I think.

>>12598
Seems massively oversimplified without much understanding.
Especially given his conflating of the "Russia-Israel" stuff. Given the way he's running, I'm going to assume he's one of those 'with us or against us' types, so anyone who doesn't care about Ukraine/wants to stop funding Ukraine is "pro Russia". Either way, supporting Israel has been pretty much establishment standard for decades.
It's only at all being questioned now, due to how off-the-rails it's gotten over there.

>>12600
>classic right
>destroy western civilization
Maybe it's different in Europe or something, but as an American, this is incredibly off to me.
Our typical right-wing types want, if anything, the expansion of the American hegemony. Constantly going off about supporting western democracies, furthering Western interests, and otherwise pushing for greater Western influence abroad.
I'll grant, this is somewhat done by both sides due to how the political landscape in the US has been when it comes to establishment candidates. But even so, it's always been the typical conservatives who've pushed for expansion.

>>12602
I'm defining "Western civilization" as "classical liberalism based on a system of Enlightenment moral ethics thereby government power is strictly limited under the objective rule of law". Or what you might call a weak form of libertarianism. As contrasted to actual "Libertarian Parties" with a Capital "L", which are a subset of the general group.

So, right-wing conservatism, summed up as "we need a gigantic Big Brother state to crush the enemies of religious virtue and social order such that we can maintain traditional authority structures as God intended" and "our nation-state must become a glorious Empire due to the superiority of our ethnicity and faith" would be the intellectual opposite of that logically. Authoritarian nationalism being the soul and spirit of modern conservatism. Which is the 180 degree opposite flip-side of libertarianism and the idea that "the best government governs least".

Western Civilization would be summed up by Dwight Eisenhour, George Bush Senior, Winston Churchill, Konrad Adenauer, and the like.

Right-wing conservatism would be summed up by Benito Mussolini, Jair Bolsonaro, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Jean-Marie Le Pen, and such.

There's a linguistic issue in the U.S. because libertarianism and conservatism are intellectual opposites in the dictionary form, but American nationalists and other advocates for big government in the U.S. tend to call themselves "libertarian". Also, in America anarcho-capitalists and neo-Nazi types are both called "of the political right". I'm inclined to just think of that as lying and not take it seriously.

Actual libertarians don't support fighting the legalization of drugs, imposing rules against free speech, banning certain types of food for being too unhealthy, imposing discrimination against LGBT people, deepening U.S. debt and deficit spending, and other doctrines that U.S. conservatives fight tooth and nail for fanatically.

>>12600
> To be honest, I've yet to see anybody who's pro-Palestine and pro-Ukraine at the same time. I don't think that this grouping actually exists in any real context, as a movement with serious numbers behind it.

Personally I don't understand why in the West there would be so much Pro Russian support.
Unless I go by the narrative that the Western media has been silencing the wide persecution of Russians in Ukraine and the rise of a nazi dictatorship there, such as Russia claims, Rssia just invaded a neighbour country unprovoked and decided to not only occupy the Eastern regions but also flatten / exterminate the rest of Ukraine in the process.
Maybe there's a question whether US and the West should spend money and resources to arm Ukraine, but honestly as a European, I wouldn't feel comfortable with Russia aggressively taking parts of Europe and exterminating its population.

For Israel vs Palestina, it's a tricky situation. After Hamas' terrorist attacks on Israel blatantly killing civilians and knowing Hamas' goal is nothing short than the extermination of all Jews, it's probably questionable to root for Palestina.
On the flip side, Israel has run a campaign on delocating the Palestinians, running an Apartheid regime and violently suppressing any resistance resulting in casualties on the Palestinian side surpassing the latest raid casualty count by quite a lot, together with the latest counter offense causing plenty of suffering to Palestina as a whole, I can understand why people would be pro-Palestina and would be protesting for a free Palestine state.

>>12607
It makes perfect sense to me that if you're a European conservative in the vain of those trying to bring back Otto Von Bismarck style traditionalist authoritarian glory that you'd support Russia achieving ultranationalist goals under a certain banner held up by Putin.

I'd refer to something like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultranationalism#Background_concepts_and_broader_context

What is Putin trying to achieve? The advancement of the Russian race. The purity and cleansing of the Russian race. The destiny of the Russian race as a classification of people given its inherent strength and ability due to their higher intelligence, stouter courage, tougher determination, better physical endurance, and the like is to achieve a massive Empire across both Europe and Asia as respective of the God-given destiny given to this tribe with such excellent literature, artwork, music, and the like. The rejection of corruptive elements such as Judaism, homosexuality, feminism, transsexuality, pornography, Islam, and the like that pervert a white Christian people from its destiny is logical.

As conservatives in Vichy France put it, **Travail, famille, patrie** Work, family, homeland. As conservatives in the Kaiserreich put it, **blood and soil**. That's the mindset.

If you're, say, a European conservative looking to create what you think is the idea theocratic ethnostate existence for the native Ayran race in Europe, why not look to Putin? Why not see him as hero? He's upholding Bismarck's legacy.

To me, I should say, this is genocidal madness of the worst kind. Yet I admit that extreme national pride is a powerful thing. It's like a spiritual form of heroin addiction, I suppose. Terrible yet agonizingly appealing in the pleasure you feel.

>>12614
> To me, I should say, this is genocidal madness of the worst kind. Yet I admit that extreme national pride is a powerful thing. It's like a spiritual form of heroin addiction, I suppose. Terrible yet agonizingly appealing in the pleasure you feel.
I would have really hoped most people would have been over it after WW2.

>>12615
While I think that the struggle against these issues is just and reasonable, and we should go through with it even if we're not sure what to really do, I don't know if it's actually possible for modern humanity to exist without extreme racial, ethnic, and religious prejudice.

These ideas have been as naturally human as drinking water and breathing air for millennia now.