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 No.12151[Reply]

File: 1687560617551.png (1.24 MB, 1280x853, 1280:853, large.png) ImgOps Google

Sometimes I wonder if the left, generally, could be more tolerant and kinder to the right.

I keep going back to LGBT+ issues, but they are a main issue right now in politics, I think.  Some Christians prefer to not be part of the LGBT+ agenda, and the left might say that's transphobic or homophobic, but perhaps we should just accept that excluding these kinds of gender or sexual expressions is what some need to practice their religion.

And in the same way some people have negative opinions about races and/or ethnicities, and rather than attacking, we should just let people have opinions.  Maybe we can respectfully disagree, but nobody should be called "racist" if they don't prefer.

I guess maybe much of the political anger is caused by left-leaning people getting upset and calling people names, and if things cool down maybe stuff will get better.
39 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12294

>>12284
>In what astonishing alternative reality are you living in which expressions of public bigotry are widely condemned or even "universally hated"?
I would ask the same to you.
Did you miss the many years now where such accusations would get you ousted from your employment?
Condemned by those around you, and functionally a leper as far as society is concerned?

>To pick just one example, former President Donald Trump publicly declared that the Prime Minister of Israel should go "f**k" himself and declared him and his fellow Israeli Jews as well as American Jews of immoral disloyalty to his administration, acting in the most antisemitic way possible in his accusations.
I would require the actual citation, then, because I find the claim suspect, especially given you start with a critique of an individual, a political figure, and leader of a nation.

It shouldn't need be said, but not supporting the Prime Minister of Israel is not antisemitism.
There's plenty of cause, after all, to do so. I can certainly understand the perspective, even assuming "should go fuck himself" was an actual quote.

> particularly him crusading against the evil campaign by LGBT people and other minorities to supposedly "groom" children
That would hold more water were it not for the mountain of evidence that unfortunately gives leeway to that perspective.
I can agree that the LGBT community as a whole is not to blame for the actions of a few particularly insane radicals, especially as they ultimately seem to just use LGBT as a shield without any actual concern for the real people it harms.
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 No.12296

>>12294
Since you actually buy seriously into the notion of evil Jews and evil gay people among others hunting down children, well, I guess you'd probably be operating from such an insanely biased far right worldview that I suppose you've no connection to reality in the first place, and any attempt by me and everybody else get through the extremist brainwashing putting the ideological bubble around your head is futile.

My mistake for attempting to engage with you in the first place, then. See you later.

 No.12301

>>12296
You've clearly not bothered to read a single thing I've said, have you?

I've said nothing to suggest I "buy" "f evil Jews and evil gay people among others hunting down children".
You've made that dishonest and hostile presumption off of, quite frankly, fuck all.

If you've not the decency nor the intellectual honesty to engage in the absolute bear minimum of responding to what others've actually said, instead of a complete fabricated fantasy in your own mind, I would implore you, hold your tongue.
You don't convince anyone by declaring them all to be evil monsters no matter what they say.
You only reveal your own demonstrable lack of personal character.


 No.12129[Reply]

File: 1686869819894.png (393.74 KB, 739x1024, 739:1024, large.png) ImgOps Google

This is a peaceful thread for those without political opinions.

Perhaps for those who don't have opinions about the LGBT agenda and pedophiles or groomers.  Or climate change.  Or which drugs should be allowed.  Or about the Jewish ethnicity.  Or Christian freedom and family values.  For those who have nothing to say about the poor or systems of economy. For those with don't comment on feminism or whether someone's appearance is valid.  For ponies who are not woke, but also don't need to have wokeness banned.

When you don't have political opinions, you can think critically and evaluate with reason and rationality.  You can be respectful of all the various opinions that exist without offending others.  It is a very nice goal, I think.
14 posts and 7 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12149

>>12147

Ah, yes. That is never fun when others want you to have a response that you don't really have at the moment.

>>12148

Hm... maybe the institution just does the best that it can, like everyone else?

One way or another, people appear to attain what is perceived by at least some others as power. But I wonder about the perception of an insitution having power - maybe therein lies the apparent problem, if there is one. What is it about a person, organization, or institution that makes a person say about it that it has authority (and then form opinions about them/it based around that perception)?

Interesting discussion.

 No.12150

>>12149
>What is it about a person, organization, or institution that makes a person say about it that it has authority (and then form opinions about them/it based around that perception)?

Authoritarianism is the necessary condition.  This is the knowledge that at least one institution should not be resisted in their use of force, and should have their orders obeyed.  With authoritarianism you can have a legitimate way to replace anarchy.

Although, much like some have said of God: I can have perfect faith in God but still, if I am not to experience God directly, question the mediation that allows me to know God.  I suppose that's part of your question.

 No.12281

I'd like to say that most opinions aren't political opinions. And most opinions are frequently things that don't involve thinking critically. It depends.

People can scream their lungs out about what band is their favorite musical group ever and what band they passionately hate to where they want to punch the nearby wall, after all.


 No.12226[Reply]

File: 1688909172197.png (400.07 KB, 1030x1024, 515:512, large.png) ImgOps Google

Are Americans, who we might define as all living or having lived in the jurisdiction of the government called The United States of America, the most free people?  That is, does the range of freedom experienced and being experience by all humans meeting this definition exceed the range of freedom possible outside the jurisdiction of the United States of America?

Or would you say Americans are equally free or have at any time been equally free, to at least one other human living elsewhere?
9 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12271

I think it relates to mental frameworks.

If you have the expectation that roads should exist and should be reasonably maintained, then every pothole that you see and such will feel like an affront.

However, if you expect nothing, then you will be pleasantly surprised by there being any roads at all.

In a great many nations, including most countries of the world, it's naturally expected that you don't have the freedom to criticize the government. Lying, cheating, stealing, and worse is expected. If you, on the other hand, have the expectation that as a citizen you can condemn the state however you see fit, this makes you angry, feeling oppressed even.

 No.12273

File: 1690685700704.jpg (49.35 KB, 1280x686, 640:343, large.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>12271
It's certainly true that how well a person's expectations are met will determine how satisfied they are, and this applies to one's sense of freedom as everything else, especially where there is no objective comparison.

If you're saying the American experience of freedom forms in American citizens an expectation of freedom that most other nations can not meet, you might be commenting on more than feelings or expectations of individuals.

 No.12279

>>12273
Yes, in many matters of international life, comparisons are objective. What nations are the top ten in terms of military spending. What are the highest average lifespans. What are the highest population totals.

However, some things, while important, just are subjective. And hence it is as we've agreed.


 No.12172[Reply]

File: 1688080240058.png (1.21 MB, 850x1209, 850:1209, 5ec2d1f7eaab6ac94982c341bc….png) ImgOps Google

Do you agree with today's Supreme Court ruling that it's illegal for federally-funded universities to racially discriminate in admissions?

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf
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 No.12244

>>12241
It is unfortunate that places prefer to discriminate against people with a male gender identity.  I hope people can find or create more inclusive places for education.

 No.12245

>>12241
I thought it was predominantly against Asians was the problem

 No.12259

My thought legally is that discrimination based on a general category is inherently wrong, and that shouldn't happen. However, discrimination based on a highly specific background status that's properly documented can make sense. And it often does.

For example, if somebody is descended from the enslaved and this is a clear-cut matter of family history as found in written documents, then I find it fairly logical to regard their personal story and family heritage as having a special meaning. Their inclusion in programs of higher education is a matter of accomplishing meaningful goals of social improvement, righting past wrongs, and expanding intellectual diversity. The same is true of bringing into the programs cancer survivors. And victims of child abuse who've rose above those circumstances. As well, those who've been formerly homeless and otherwise dealt with extreme poverty have unique character-based aspects to their lives. Same thing for war veterans. Especially veterans with citations of merit.

I wouldn't consider preferential treatment to a child of enslaved parents, of parents who've survived cancer, of veteran parents, and such to be that objectionable. It's not like an extremely broad category label such as 'a black person', especially when a gigantic number of black Americans have never had any of their relatives slash forefathers enslaved. Not to mention that, obviously, records of enslavement exist for people who aren't / weren't black. Scholarships for those people, their children, their grandchildren, and/or their great-grandchildren seems reasonable.

I'm in favor of the ruling to some extent, then, I suppose. I'm not familiar with the technical legal grounds argued, however.


 No.12102[Reply]

File: 1685334478469.png (1.94 MB, 1079x1766, 1079:1766, Screenshot_20230521-203920.png) ImgOps Google

Why are Japanese cities so safe and low in crime?
12 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12133

It isn't the "politically correct" answer but there are no minorities or immigrants committing crimes and sucking up taxpayer money. Everybody in Japanese society is Japanese so they all know the rules and where they belong.

 No.12242

>>12240
Yes, I think at least in America, black people are more criminal.  It may be so in other countries as well.  Note, this is not a moral judgement.  States determine who is criminal and will be respected, but states are amoral and crime is not itself a reason to have negative opinions about racial groups.  But people are free to have negative opinions about racial groups if they prefer.  I believe it's important to allow various opinions about things.

 No.12258

I don't have links to studies at the moment, but it seems pretty clear-cut that the primary reason is human capital investment. The Japanese government as well as the general culture and society puts an emphasis on universal health care that actually works, prestigious educational systems that actually work, employment training organizational programs that actually work, and so on. Japan is not a 'sink or swim' culture akin to the United States where everybody is basically out for themselves. Such as whether or not you have employable type skills is viewed as 100% on you rather than something that can be influenced by broader culture... those American principles are an anathema in that nation. Japan is an extremely capitalist place in the technical sense, particularly given the business practices financially, but the psychological ethos is almost completely socialist.

I need to highlight and then underline that this observation is not inherently an ethically benevolent thing (nor is it inherently an abominable thing). Objectively? It's complex. One can certainly have the opinion that relying on such a socialist mindset with an emphasis on human capital investment will in the long-run result in social stagnation and particularly economic problems. Cultural chaos can mean cultural growth. Japan has by now had several 'lost decades'. Many people who live there or have lived there find the ethos too 'conformist' and talk about the ability to express themselves more freely. It's all a matter with a lot of 'shades of grey'.


 No.12252[Reply]

Don't you ever wonder why you would't go out and try to get rich pulling blatant scams on a lot of people with no risk on repercussions?

Are people idiots for working in call centers off shores pretending to be Microsoft engineers?
Or are we all the idiots for not seeing the lucrative business model in parting money from some gullible elder somewhere?

Overall, what do you think of scammers who keep getting away with it?

 No.12253

>Don't you ever wonder why you wouldn't go out and try to get rich pulling blatant scams on a lot of people with no risk of repercussions?
No.

>Are people idiots for working in call centers off-shore pretending to be Microsoft engineers?
No.

>Or are we all idiots for not seeing the lucrative business model in parting money from some gullible elder somewhere?
No.

>Overall, what do you think of scammers who keep getting away with it?
That the system is set up in a way to allow it to happen. That the only means of stopping them is to address the systemic issues that cause people to take up scamming and to put into practice policies that will help people to avoid scams and empower them to prosecute scammers when they are found.

 No.12254

>>12252
People aren't idiots for not wanting to scam folk from a call center.
They're just not scumbags.


 No.12243[Reply]

File: 1689860512936.png (962.07 KB, 1280x960, 4:3, full.png) ImgOps Google

One of my projects involves finding the location in space of something like a cell phone.  Google has been playing with various ideas that might get the precision down to 10 cm, although that's best-case and widespread adoption will likely be slow for a lot of reasons.

While I deal in the technology, do you think a 10 cm precision milestone would mean anything politically, as in the power to gain deeper insight into people's patterns of life might have effects beyond giving individual users more precise information about themselves?


 No.12187[Reply]

File: 1688217135699.jpg (592.1 KB, 2000x1333, 2000:1333, 1647814319331.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Let's say you spent your whole life being an atheist, or maybe at least a good chunk of your life, and then some events happen that make it very difficult to sit with that atheist mindset and be comfortable there. Or, to put it another way, you have seen or experienced too many things that you tried, and failed, to simply explain away with anything rationale. And let's add another layer to this.

Let's say that even if you get to this point, and one day someone or a few people come along, that have the answers to those experiences and can perfectly replicate them or explain them and make them rational for you. But because you had your belief system shook, you now, even with the evidence, still wish to believe in something other than atheism.

Do you believe that you have a moral obligation to still uphold science and modern medicine, psychiatry, and basically the 'best that we got at the moment' tools to deal with our struggles and problems first? Or do you believe it's okay to go full force into this new belief and suggest to other people to say, just for an example, pray instead of making a doctors appointment. Or pray before going to a doctor.

Do we have some kind of moral obligation, in essence, if we want to believe in something that science can't explain, or can't yet explain?
_____________

So that's the prompt. My own personal feeling that I'm willing to discuss if others want to, is that yes I do think we have a moral obligation to use science and the tools that we have either first, or equally as alongside, whatever spiritual beliefs we may have. I have formed this opinion based upon the countless years of history that have shown how much damage religion or spiritual beliefs CAN cause, when not handled carefully or used to fuel a fire. I also feel like there should be a similar checks and balance with science and modern medicine, but that could be a discussion for another thread. I would like to focus on this aspect for the thread first.
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 No.12222

>>12219

>I don't really have a solid point with that, I just that it was an interesting correlation and felt like sharing.

Thanks for sharing.

>Up until a few months ago, I had a misunderstanding of what exactly it was that psychiatrists do.

I think of there being two main branches in terms of mental health: Psychiatrists deal primarily with medication management (figuring out which medications seem to work and which ones don't, checking for drug interactions, and writing prescriptions) with a little bit of counseling thrown in, if necessary.

The other branch is counseling. Within the counseling branch, there are psychologists, counselors, therapists, group counselors, etc. Everyone in this branch aims to treat their clients with counseling/therapy being the focus. But if you like, they can discuss medication and possibly make referrals.

Most health plans allow for you to see a psychiatrist and a counselor at the same time, if you wish.

A psychologist is a specific kind of counselor.
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 No.12223

>>12221
Don't feed the pegions

 No.12224

>Do you believe that you have a moral obligation to still uphold science and modern medicine, psychiatry, and basically the 'best that we got at the moment' tools to deal with our struggles and problems first? Or do you believe it's okay to go full force into this new belief and suggest to other people to say, just for an example, pray instead of making a doctors appointment. Or pray before going to a doctor.

The number of denominations where this dilemma is relevant is fairly low and they generally make up a very small percentage of their religious category. Even Jehovah's Witnesses, who are famous for preferring uncomfortable deaths over challenging their faith, are fully permitted to go to the doctor and take modern medical advice as long as it does not violate specific non-medical regulation. Most religious objection to modern medicine is more socio-political in nature than theological, so I don't think the vague non-denominational deism described in the OP would oblige somebody to categorically reject treatment.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/christian-medical-treatment/
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201304/why-do-we-get-sick/


 No.12053[Reply]

File: 1683931501468.png (735.77 KB, 755x1024, 755:1024, large.png) ImgOps Google

Nobody owes you anything.  You owe others respect for their human rights.

States don't owe you anything.  You owe states loyalty and obedience.

Politics is full of contrary ideas and best avoided.
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 No.12101

>>12098
Well, I draw a line at saying something like the Holocaust was moral, which would have to follow since internal opposition was insufficient to keep it from happening.  Which is why I go with states are amoral.

 No.12130

>States don't owe you anything.  You owe states loyalty and obedience.
Other way around actually. The State absolutely owes their society that funds them for being public servants. If the state has ability to rob people of their earned money then they should at least do their respected jobs for their constituents who fund them. Simple as.

 No.12131

>>12130
The state may prefer to serve the public, as judged by an individual subject, a group of subjects, or a majority of subjects.  Often opinions about what actions the state may do that serve the public good vary, and it's probably unlikely that at least some subjects feel any given state is serving the public good.

Sometimes states request feedback on how they are doing, and proving that feedback is obedient.

But in situations where an individual feels the state or state agents are not acting as public servants, and no legal and respectful option exists for feedback, we have a situation where nothing more can be done.  And I say "states owe you nothing" because this situation is possible for any individual.  

[Perhaps true, my phrase is an overstatement.  "States owe you what states believe they owe you and nothing more." might be better.  Or maybe "states owe you what you happen to get" avoids anthropomorphizing states as entities with beliefs.]


 No.12108[Reply]

File: 1685710175613.jpg (326.9 KB, 1080x1080, 1:1, 350130128_217214194405590_….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Perhaps this can be a month to focus on modesty, and tolerance of diverse perspectives on various topics, especially topics that seem to divide ponies and humans.  Perhaps we can focus on how everypony can feel safe and accepted this month.

Hasbro Posted on FB: "Today and every day we celebrate everypony’s unique sparkle  Be true to who you are – hoof to heart!"

That sounds like a good message.  Let's debate how to best let everypony be true to themselves!
11 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12120

>>12119
What is your meaning of "societal karma"?  When I see Karma, it's usually in the context of "instant Karma" where a rude person is punished by an independent event.  The actual Karma is a religious idea I probably don't fully understand.

Which parties need to communicate and what do they need to tell each other?

 No.12121

>>12120

My thoughts are that I think my meaning is that when you do something, it has effects. It's not what you do that matters, necessarily, but your reason for doing it. If you do something in the name of God (or some other moral cause) (not for God, which I think is a subtle difference), then that will have consequences down the line related to the fact that you did it in the name of God. If you do something out love, there wil be consequences tied to that related to the fact that you did the thing out of love. If you do something out of anger, fear, or delusion - whatever your underlying motive - that will have a specific set of consequences down the line associated with that. You might not be able to guess how they will arise, specifically, but... just that what happens in the future, etc. will be a result of your (and others') underlying motives.

By societal karma, I mean what happens when a lot of poeple have similar underlying motives for doing something and how it affects the society as a whole, such as what laws are made, social norms, etc.

I think everyone could stop fighting so much and listen to each other, but it can be quite hard, and some people might not be ready, so we should just do what we can (and take care of ourselves), I suppose.

 No.12122

>>12121
I think I see.  When I think of a particular act, say banning drag shows viewable by children, you could say the motivation was protecting children, obeying God's will, hate or fear for LGBT+ associated things, or some combination or difference motivations for different people.  So things in societal Karma seem pretty fuzzy in practice.

>everyone could stop fighting so much and listen to each other

I can't tell others what to do, but I think I agree with that general sentiment.  Although in my view there are windows when others are actually ready to listen, and it's important to be sensitive to those opportunities.  (However, that also means accepting marginalization when those windows are rare.  And it's quite possible in some cases windows are made rare on purpose.)


 No.12041[Reply]

File: 1683103825547.png (1.19 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, large.png) ImgOps Google

Ponies can have nice friends.  And if there are no nice friends around, you can have imaginary friends and be friends with yourself, and that's just as good.
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 No.12052

>>12042
I think so.  But some might be food.  I don't know if someone can be both.

 No.12068

File: 1684405844536.png (411.65 KB, 800x500, 8:5, medium (14).png) ImgOps Google

Man

I've been trying to become friends with myself, but that dude is a total asshole!

 No.12071

>>12068
Sometimes it is best to consider the consequences of what we might post, and whether the words we use are helpful or harmful.


 No.12066[Reply]

File: 1684300830667.png (509.84 KB, 700x449, 700:449, FGde1qdVQAA1R_6.png) ImgOps Google

Are you worried about deceptively aligned mesa-optimizers?

https://AsTralcoDexten.substack.com/p/deceptively-aligned-mesa-optimizers

 No.12067

No


 No.11997[Reply]

File: 1682080372787.png (1.23 MB, 1280x853, 1280:853, large.png) ImgOps Google

Most people I know don't have cars anymore (largely, I think, they can't really afford them).

I gather the most common way to transit in the USA is a private pickup-truck or sports utility vehicle.  I gather some would consider using these vehicles the most American way to get around, and would say anyone wanting anything different is against freedom.

The debate topic is that it's not anti-freedom -- treason to America, perhaps -- to be OK with walking, taking a train, riding a bus, biking, or using a private vehicle that is not classified as a truck.
18 posts omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.12018

File: 1682410910495.jpg (367 KB, 906x928, 453:464, 68ebe5500612a04f88630d2f41….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>12015
>>12017
The point is that your advocacy is abstract enough that there is no specific imminent time nor even a specific unlawful action that you're inviting.  

 No.12019

>>12018
I see.  I must get all the recipients of my call to disobey the state to agree to perform any actions related to my communication after some delay, or target at least two potential actions so no single, individual action is called for.  [And then likely afford a good lawyer.]

 No.12034

I'm reminded of various insufferable "urban planning" YouTube channels which promote walkable/bikeable cities and car-free society, with no real understanding of how people interact or operate in the real world.
"This is Amsterdam.  Look at all the bikes.  Isn't Amsterdam great?  Why doesn't [insert city here] completely restructure itself to be more like Amsterdam?"


 No.11991[Reply]

File: 1681736109846.png (403.09 KB, 1079x1237, 1079:1237, Screenshot_20230417-085331.png) ImgOps Google

Should laws and culture try to look out for normal guys who have flaws that can be exploited by MBAs?

https://www.twitter.com/Steve_Sailer/status/1647836562959499265

 No.11992

I would say yeah.  Society does not benefit by letting people get scammed out of their money.  Also we should generally be more aware of the fact that people have flaws that aren't easily labeled enough to consider the individual anything but "normal guys who have flaws".  Everyone on the planet ultimately operates via instinct and emotion, and all of us have different instincts and emotions, and those can lead people to do things that are harmful to themselves or others.

 No.11993

>>11991
This is about betting on the outcome of basketball games using a smartphone, which I gather is legal in some states now?  It is about gambling becoming more accessible?  Stigmas associated with gambling addiction, as well?

This is pretty far outside of my experience.  I obviously don't want to see people financially ruined, but others will argue that we shouldn't take away the liberty to make adult decisions.  I don't have enough information for a strong opinion, but thank you for bringing up this topic, F. Badger.

 No.12016

Yeah, I'm on the side of punishing and disempowering the gambling oligarchs. They're bad for the economy, they devastate people's lives, and like all oligarchs, once they accumulate enough money, they use that money to manipulate the government. This is how caste systems form. This is how oligarchy overtakes democracy. If it were up to me, the boards of these companies would be hanged. They're traitors, and subhuman pieces of feces, far as I'm concerned.

And gambling is a pretty normal flaw of the human brain's wiring, so i think trying to blame it on the user is ridiculous, considering. Plus, that's not even considering how much resources and research are used by these companies to manipulate people. Yes, people have free will, but there's a reason we made coke take out the cocaine from their soda. Same thing here.


 No.12008[Reply]

File: 1682282014120.jpg (255.07 KB, 1024x1024, 1:1, large.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Facebook has been preferring to show me more of what I would consider hate speech, or perhaps just showing me more hate that I remember as relevant to my...situation.

And maybe rather than getting all bent out of shape, I can think of it as people being free to express their opinions without some totalitarian control structure.  Nobody can be forced to like anyone else, and some people have negative opinions to share.  Knowing how people feel about different groups can be adaptive, and freedom is a positive trait of a community.  Perhaps it would be better yet for people to have freedom and not wish to use that freedom to express hateful opinions about groups historically marginalized, but that's probably fantasy.

Of course, in cases where the speech, beyond a reasonable doubt, is a statement of imminent intent to do credible violence against specific individuals who are your duty and business to protect, then maybe you might get upset.  But opinions and hyperbole are just that, and nobody should be attacked.


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