No.1165029
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Are seed oils (and linoleic acid in particular, when consumed in excess) obesogenic? Do they cause other health problems too, especially when oxidized?
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/seed-oils-explain-the-8-mysterieshttps://tuckergoodrich.substack.com/p/does-linoleic-acid-induce-obesityNote: nowadays, lard is often tainted with lots of PUFA due to pigs being fed soy. (Unlike cows, pigs are monogastric.)
No.1165030
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>when consumed in excess
No.1165031
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>>1165030Unfortunately, average Americans do consume a truly excessive amount of seed oil, providing far more linoleic acid than the body needs.
No.1165041
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>>1165037Indeed, clarified!
No.1165042
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One of these days, we're gonna conclude that "Supersize me" was a lie and having Mc Donald's 24 / 7 is way healthier than living on salads and fruit.
No.1165045
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>>1165042Commercially prepared salads are usually cursed because they have seed oil in the salad dressing. McDonalds burger *patty* is healthier in that it doesn't have any seed oil, although the hamburger bun *does* have seed oil in it.
No.1165046
>>1165042>>1165042Supersize Me in general may have had certain points, but it is quite manipulative in places. There's an infamous moment where the guy vomits in the parking lot immediately after eating the biggest meal he could find in there... And conveniently leaves out the part where he'd been on a vegan diet for like five years before filming that.
That's not to claim the food isn't unhealthy of course, but acting shocked that he shocked his own system with that stunt is a bit iffy
No.1165049
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>>1165046Like, I always found that movie a bit iffy for that concept of someone stuffing themselves exclusively on a known unhealthy diet is bad for you. I mean, that doesn't seem too shocking.
But lately the internet is backpeddling on a lot of common guidelines
* Lots of salt is actually good for you
* Greasy food is healthy
* fruits and vegetables are full of carbs and should be avoided
* there's nothing wrong with synthetic sugars
...
No.1165050
>>1165049>>1165049I mean obviously, we should be a bit careful, but I have always been a bit skeptical of health scares.
Back when everyone suddenly agreed salt would murder us all overnight, a newspaper in my country literally had a front page that featured a giant picture of a salt shaker with a skull and crossbones of it. I was maybe 12 at the time and even then I was like "Alright, this might he laying it on a little thick....,
No.1165052
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As someone with a high school-level food science qualification my takes are as follows:
1. If it's naturally occurring and normally eaten it's probably fine, at least in moderation.
2. If it's processed you should probably be careful with it.
3. You can't just cut most stuff out of your diet wholesale. To some extent you need carbs and fat and salt and sugar and probably a bunch of other things people love to demonise too.
4a. Stress is obesogenic. When you're stressed your body produces cortisol, a hormone that raises your blood pressure and insulin production and drops your blood sugar level, causing you to crave sugar. It also drops your metabolism for good measure.
4b. As constant stress is part and parcel of today's society, we could (at least partly) solve obesity by destroying capitalism and having good policies like a universal basic income and social housing.
5. Chubby girls are superior. This is not up for debate on account of being a proven fact. For such a cause I would die a martyr.
No.1165053
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>>1165052> 4b. As constant stress is part and parcel of today's society, we could (at least partly) solve obesity by destroying capitalism and having good policies like a universal basic income and social housing.Eating the rich does sound like a good choice for a diet.
> Chubby girls are superior. This is not up for debate on account of being a proven fact. For such a cause I would die a martyr.this is the truth.
No.1165058
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I'm pretty sure for most of us, the best way to handle the risk of being fat can just be managing calorie intake. Actually managing it, not just for a week or two.
If your job is not a physically active one, then picking up something like jogging will be a tremendous boon. Especially if you're currently in a sedentary lifestyle. Exercising is a relatively easy and cheap way to burn away stress. I like to listen to books or podcasts at the gym after work as an added bonus. Building the subconscious association between entertainment and a bit of rigorous exercise helped to retain my motivation when I was starting, and remains a nice treat.
No.1165061
>>1165052>Stress is obesogenic>Chubby girls are superiorSo what you are saying is we need to stress every woman we meet the fuck out
Oh wait everything already does that constantly. My bad
No.1165066
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I just use olive oil for everything.
That way i dont have to think.
No.1165082
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>>1165053I mean the rich are pigs and red meat is bad for you. But someone's gotta do it.
>>1165061This is true. Though I guess that means there's an argument to be made over whether destroying capitalism would really benefit us. On one hand social mobility and universal healthcare and basic human rights, on the other hand maybe less chubby girls.
>>1165053>>1165061You both have impeccable taste by the way.
No.1165084
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>>1165052> it's processed you should probably be careful with it.Yup, that there seems to be widespread agreement on that, but with lots of different theories of why. SlimeMoldTimeMold suspects there are chemical contaminants getting into industrially processed foods. Some think that it's because most ultra-processed foods have seed oils lurking in them. Others think it's due to hyperpalatability.
>we could (at least partly) solve obesity by destroying capitalismHeh, I guess so, but I'd rather have too much food than too little :P
>>1165058>I'm pretty sure for most of us, the best way to handle the risk of being fat can just be managing calorie intakeI used to think that, but now it seems there's a lot of evidence that trying optimize diet for its effect on metabolism and satiety works much better.
Look here:
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(16)30733-1In both mice and men, diets varying in composition but having the same number of calories can produce vastly different results.
>>1165066Olive oil is good!
No.1165089
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>>1165084I like it because you can replace a lot of things with it and it doesnt require a fridge.
Packaged mixes that require like milk and butter and sometimes egg can be replaced by olive oil (in a different measurement) and still come out pretty good.
Sometimes it gives a flavor that i prefer too. Like i like using olive oil for like, kraft dinner, instead of milk and butter.
No.1165090
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>>1165089You can edit in your name?
woah
No.1165092
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>>1165084Picking foods that satiate obviously helps for maintaining food discipline. However I don't see anything in that which dispels the underlying reality that to lose fat you need a calorie intake below maintenance.
Keeping up activity levels also promotes your body to retain muscles while pulling from fat reserves as well. For most of us who aren't athletes or bodybuilders, a reasonably balanced diet with a lower calorie intake should be fine for trimming down.
This is interesting data for sure, but seems more impactful for edge cases or more advanced fitness. A few steps past the first step most overweight folks need to take of eat a bit-or a lot-less and move around more.
No.1165098
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>>1165089Very versatile! Sometimes I just drank a shot of olive oil, but it often irritates my throat like that, so I mix it with other food now.
>>1165092>However I don't see anything in that which dispels the underlying reality that to lose fat you need a calorie intake below maintenance.Oh yeah, of course CICO is true. But the problem is that calories_out depends very complexly on the composition of the food you eat. So in practice, CICO might not be very useful.
>>1165092>but seems more impactful for edge cases or more advanced fitness. A few steps past the first step most overweight folks need to take of eat a bit-or a lot-less and move around more.I dunno, the ex150 guy lost a ton of weight just by cutting out seed oils on his existing keto diet:
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-dietPerhaps he is an edge case, but seven other people also tried this diet and lost weight:
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/ex150-trial-results-96lbs-averageAnd then there's SlimeMoldTimeMold's potato diet, where almost all participants lost a decent chunk of weight eating potatoes ad libitum.
No.1165103
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>>1165098Interesting. Though already being on diets implies these folks already are CICO aware.
On the other hand, rapid weight loss has a tendency towards regaining the weight after the crash diet is done. A more gradual weight loss on a healthy diet you still enjoy probably pays dividends in building healthier habits.
No.1165110
>>1165098>>1165103For stuff like potato diet, I have to wonder how long you can last before you run into issues with lack of nutrients.
Or does it turn out that the whole variation is also a complete lie doctors have been telling us all along?
No.1165111
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>>1165110I don't know what the potato diet is outside of what it sounds like, but a potato is a perfectly good food item nutritionally. Lots of vitamin C.
No.1165135
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>>1165098>Perhaps he is an edge case, but seven other people also tried this diet and lost weightThis is still all anecdotal though. What about people who lose weight without cutting seed oils? You can't just ignore that data.
No.1165137
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>>1165110>>1165111Potatoes lack vitamin B12. The SlimeMoldTimeMold potato diet incorporates a B12 supplement. Also either vitamin A supplement or sweet potatoes.
There are some other deficiencies too, e.g., calcium. Initially SMTM suggested avoiding dairy, but later experiments indicated that dairy is fine:
https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2024/01/05/first-potato-riffs-report/A daily multivitamin is probably a good idea on any diet where you aren't eating a wide variety of foods.
No.1165141
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>>1165135>This is still all anecdotal though.Not sure what you mean by that. The n=7 experiment wasn't randomized and didn't have a control group, but neither are really necessary here, for the same reason that they wouldn't be necessary for testing a medicine that caused people to grow fluffy tails -- we know enough about the base rates, and scales don't exhibit the placebo effect.
>What about people who lose weight without cutting seed oils?Obesity certainly isn't monocausal at the individual level. Some people are gifted with a metabolism that can deal with them chugging seed oils. But at the population level, there's a lot of evidence that seed oils cause obesity.
No.1165148
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>>1165098Yeah, idk about just gulping down some olive oil.
As a dressing its pretty good, and obv for cooking but idk if id want to just drink it.
I do wonder what about it would cause irritation though. Unless you have an allergy.
No.1165149
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>>1165148ChatGPT says it's the oleocanthal and polyphenols. It bothers me only when I drink it straight. It doesn't bother me when I consume it mixed with food.
No.1165151
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>>1165149Chatgdp, eh?
Sounds pretty official.
Fair enough. Was gonna invite you to an olive oil chugging contest. Maybe you can still watch anyway.
No.1165152
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>>1165151It turns out someone actually did a study on this:
"""
Oleocanthal is an olive oil phenolic possessing anti-inflammatory activity. Anecdotal evidence suggests that oleocanthal elicits a stinging sensation felt only at the back of the throat (oropharynx). ... The current study assessed the unique irritant attributes of oleocanthal including its location of irritation, temporal profile, and individual differences in the perceived irritation. We show that the irritation elicited by oleocanthal was localized to the oropharynx (P < 0.001) with little or no irritation in the anterior oral cavity. Peak irritation was perceived 15 s postexposure and lasted over 180 s. Oleocanthal irritation was more variable among individuals compared with the irritation elicited by CO2 and the sweetness of sucrose.
"""
https://academic.oup.com/chemse/article/34/4/333/286168 No.1165238
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It looks like isoleucine is obesogenic when consumed above the minimum level required for proper bodily functioning. Unfortunately, there aren't any whole-food sources of complete protein that are low in isoleucine. (Collagen is fairly low, but it is an incomplete protein; you will die from lack of tryptophan if you get all your protein from collagen.)
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/show-me-the-bcaa-studies No.1165267
>>1165253>>1165253>the associated risks for patients with liver, kidney, or heart disease.Tell me more.
I've heard that a high-protein keto diet can be bad for people with pre-existing kidney damage, but that it's fine otherwise. In any case, ex150 is a low-protein keto diet.
As for the liver, it looks to me like obesity is a bigger risk factor for non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) than a keto diet.
As for heart disease, my guess is that a keto that is high in omega-6 PUFA is bad, but a diet consisting mostly of MUFA and saturated sat isn't too bad. (Oxidized LDL is much more atherogenic than unoxidized LDL.)
