No.3564[Last 50 Posts]
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Please discuss, below. Thank you.
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It isn't permanent, and will allow both parties to cool off and reflect on their actions. Having the rule for them not to interact or mention each other might be a time-bomb for later. And could be exploited by someone without their interests at heart. The drama will lessen now regardless.
Thanks for dealing with this wild wacky and colorful userbase.
no idea what caused it or how bad it was.
not much for me to discuss.
I generally hide Manley threads to avoid the inevitable drama.
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I agree with Tracer.
This will deal with the amount of drama that has been on the site but the issue of exploitation is something to take into account.
Also, I would like to know how the moderation team feels about the use of this tactic?
Is this a one time deal for the two in question or will this be used in the future should a similar situation arise?
Same rules then, or is this a tailored solution for the two in question? >>3567
I feel it would be rather silly for anyone to assume that this decision was made alone.
Sorry that it has come to this for everyone involved.
I don't think that any of the Lost or Manley are bad people. But this is very much a case of oil and water.
I doubt any amount of time will make them not want to grind their axes, which is why I understand the no interaction clause, so I suppose little can be done other than carry on.
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the mod team came to this decision after tremendous internal struggle, and a feeling that there was no reasonable option left.
this is absolutely a tailored solution to these two.
And it hurts me, especially, that it came to this. Nobody on staff feels happy that we had to do this, and the mood is pretty somber.
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Just because you feel somber on the decision, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do. I'm shocked the moderation team here still take such decisions this emotionally afterward. But it shows that you guys truly care for the well being of the user base here. So I'm proud of the lot of you, it's the best choice for the time being.
Feeling sad won't do anything beneficial though. So do try to stay positive while we go though this event.
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So this is very much a one-time solution then?
I don't think that the moderation team should feel bad about the situation.
I think it was made obvious that all other solutions had been tired, especially is people paid attention to the threads here in /canterlot/.
You guys did what you thought was best to end the situation that in all honesty was making posters avoid in discussion or the site as a whole.
So as Tracer has said, do try to stay positive. I know you especially little moon are taking this hard.
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Probably a good idea in the long run. Should have happened to me at some point I'm sure.
Also I am super tempted to make a joke about this being the final solution but that probably wouldnt go over well.
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>>3568>Also, I would like to know how the moderation team feels about the use of this tactic?
It's a decision forced on us, that we've tried to steer away from over and over again with kind words and gentle nudges that were given lip service then promptly discarded. This
is the straightforward solution. The blunt instrument replacing the scalpel that we were attempting to use.
Im going to go anon to gove my two cents on this, and I hope I might not cause this thread to become a drama bomb.
From my perspective, one of those two is far guiltier than the other, and I am far more pessimistic that this ban will really make a difference for them in the long term.
I am speaking of Manley of course. From my perspective Manley is the far more manipulative of the two, and this conflict between them seems more like a product of Manley's successful attempts to provoke LP and turn the mods and the rest of the community against him. And the worst part, I think is that too many on the staff just don't seem to be able to read between the lines and see what he's doing.
To me it's clearly a case of Manley using canterlot as a court against LP. I don't think Manley was actually acting in good faith, was not being completely honest, and was certainly not acknowledging the context of LP's admittedly rude comments in response to his own very rude comments in a prior thread.
But the biggest problem with this thread is how it was given uncritical legitimacy by Moony in the first reply to the thread.
That just makes me more pessimistic that this ban will really do any good, especially if the staff cannot see deliberate bad faith manipulation when it happens. Especially since Manley has years
of history with this, both on and off this site.
He's deliberately provoked Steam Twist, he's deliberately proviked fleur, he attempted
to provoke Flower, but she didn't take the bait, and he's certainly deliberately attempted to provoke Dizzy and her sisters early in this site's history. And he's certainly deliberately attempted to provoke LP on many occasions and manipulate others against him here and off the site.
And in all 7 years he's been in the ponychan/ponyville corner of the internet, he's never once really accepted that any ban he's ever received had in any way been justified, perpetually claiming victimhood status. And the fact that this keeps happening and this pattern of manipulation keeps continuing, it just makes me feel like he is absolutely abusing the benefit of the doubt of the staff which is clearly still going on if the fact that >>3440
is treated as a legitimate discussion is any indication.
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I partially agree. A good bit of drama comes from Manly, and he gets let off quite easily every time. Claiming ignorance most of the time. Unfortunately difficult to prove how someone feels over the internet, if their real intentions were hostile or not.
But, both parties are still guilty here, and while I do agree one has been more involved for longer than the other, it'll do them good to be away from here for a while.
They'll basically be under a microscope when they get back anyway. And Lost was acting quite erratically recently. More so than his usual self. I can only assume as to why but the mixture of the two didn't help.
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In my humble opinion,
Two weeks is very short, 3 or 4 weeks of ban would be good.
Also I think after two weeks, they will fight again sooner or later.
They never learn for their mistakes.
So you are only slowing the inevitable.
But I guess anyone deserves a second chance to fix the things.
But at the same time you are doing something good for Ponyville.In giving us a small break from stupid tantrums caused by LP and Manley.
In my case after the two week period ban ends. I'm going to do a thing, if I see Manley or Lost Pony appearing in my threads, Always I'm going to be kinda rude to remind them to behave so they can think twice before both of them decide to start arguing like small childs and get that tasty salty sour permaban.
When I think about it, I agree with this on Manley's part.
He has been banned for lengths of time like this before and he has always come back to do it again eventually.
This seems a stopgap measure for the inevitable permaban that Manley will probably face before long, baased on his past track record with bans like these. But its probably good to give him one last chance.
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I also agree with Tracer.
I already feel better, honestly. They weren't going to change unless something happened, and I was tired of seeing /canterlot/ threads of them just bickering at each other.
i thought briefly about going anon to retort, but felt it dishonest.
i disagree. Manley absolutely deserves his ban here. a lost pony, just as much. i'm not going to make a ruling on which has done more harm. In the here and now, they've torn the site apart lately.
And that ends today. i understand your frustration with Manley. Well, he's got a two week ban, and a permaban thereafter, if he tries to do anything again.
And the staff is operating from your perspective concerning his behavior form now on, after a lot of discussion. i, personally, am approaching it now with a lot generosity than i have.
And i hope you will find the future actions of the staff, towards Manley, should hopefully cause some greater confidence.
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>>3579>In my case after the two week period ban ends. I'm going to do a thing, if I see Manley or Lost Pony appearing in my threads, Always I'm going to be kinda rude to remind them to behave so they can think twice before both of them decide to start arguing like small childs and get that tasty salty sour permaban.
This feels.... really gross, honestly. I don't think you should be baiting
them into a permaban.
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Yeaaaaaaaaah, what Setsuna said. Please don't do that Einhorn.
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I believe Einhorn meant he will be making it clear that he expects them to behave.
But thats probably also not a good idea.
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Which would be like poking a stick at a hornets nest.
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That's not my intention.
It's only to remind them, they need to behave.
But in the end they don't appear in my threads
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Trust me, I've been sick of it for a while.
Thank you for doing what was necessary. >>3583
And thank you for being willing to reconsider the way you handle Manley going forward. Up until now I really thought he was never going to have to face serious consequences for his behaviour. No one on this site has been given more chances than he has been given, and no one has been allowed to get away with as much as he has been allowed to get away with.
I don't know for sure why it's been that way, but to me it's seemed to border on outright favouritism for a while now. Honestly, if any other poster would've acted the way Manley has been acting I can't shake the feeling that they would've been banned for good years ago.
And maybe that's unfair of me. I can't know why you do the things you do, and my bias might be clouding my memory. But it's comforting to know that there's at least some limit to what he's allowed to get away with, and I'm hopeful that the change in perspective will have a positive effect.
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I want to say something to this, and I am probably going to get shit for it, but I feel like I need to bring my own life experiences and offline experience to the table here.
I don't think Manley has ever been manipulative. I understand why it comes across that way because of the way he acts and his difficulty with taking responsibility for himself.
He can be stuck up, rude, hostile, at times unwilling to empathize until you really push him to see the wrong in his reasoning, but... manipulative? No. He has never, as far as my through my years of knowing him and watching his actions, been purposefully manipulative.
I am not saying that he is without blame here. I am not saying that he hasn't cause drama or trouble on the sites. Honestly I personally don't think places like this are good for him.
I have been manipulated more times than I am willing to say because it's down right embarrassing, especially when you think someone truly cared about you. But I believe I've had it dished out to me enough times now to know. At least, the more sneaky signs of it.
And, this is where I feel like I am going to get shit and probably make at least one person pretty angry with me.
Where you say that he has been trying to get people against lostpony, that is not without some reason.
When lost pony first came to this sight, I don't know, but the first interaction I ever had with him offline was not a nice one.
I volunteered to help him with a story that he was writing and offer some mild feedback and critique. Which was fine at first, but soon there came a point where I realized I was probably not going to have time to dedicate the type of attention it would take to continue on with that critique, and I told him so. I apologized for becoming busy with IRL things and told him I would have to stop, but wished him well.
He became IRRATE with me, and made a clear point to remind me that I had agreed to not share his story with anyone, and implied that there would be trouble if I did.
Not long after that, he deleted all his messaged to me off of Discord.
I don't know why he acted this way, or if it had something to do with the autism, but I have only ever been treated that way by people who have used me. I have also seen him act and say things differently while on ponychan than he did here.
I only ever talked to that incident with Manley, and I was cautious and wary of lostponys actions since then. And since then I have only become more confused with his behavior. At times I can't tell if he does the things he does on purpose, or just doesn't think. But it is behavior that I have seen and heard before, and, again, only by people who have used me. This going into a tangent now, and I have provided my reason for why I think Manley may have, let's say, shit talked to.
And that is what I believe it to be-shit talk. But not purposeful manipulation.
Now, all that being said, none of this takes away from either of their behavior on the site, the punishment deemed appropriate by the mods, and hopefully the path going forward from here...but I strongly felt like the term manipulation, while I can see why, is wrong in this situation. Manley has never been anything but honest, and people who manipulate are not honest.
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Unfortunately I don't think private interactions should apply unless there's actual danger from the person. Implications aren't direct threats. While I do believe he would do something like that, it's also not the best to speculate without his side of the story. As much as I disrespect the man.
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No, I agree with this.
I don't think Manley is manipulative. He's brash, rude, and sometimes as easy to deal with as a brick wall, but I would never really say manipulative.
LP, however... yeah, that all does not surprise me. After all the shit with him regarding Steam Twist, which WAS manipulative, and the recent incidents, LP is manipulative. I did not believe it when Tracer told me his age, because I am baffled a grown-ass man is acting this way.
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I know Manley pretty well too and I completely agree with this.
Especially because Manley himself has been manipulated by several people in the past, I believe Manley would never willingly do that to someone else.
But as you say his behavior is still bad even if its not manipulative.
I'm not in favor of permabanning one of my friends but he needs to take control of himself.
We both do.
I agree with this post, but I'm not sure most of the staff shares that opinion
I know first and secondhand the harm Manley's accusations of character and -what I believe to be unintentional manipulation- have caused
I was most certainly the target of a lot of his hatred and was one of the people who behaved like LP, before
To me it feels like I live in an alternate reality where few people realize that the individual on the other side of the screen is human, and feels things when you insult their character in a public space, especially since we're social creatures
I'd throw my hat in the "deliberately provoked" area.
I'm starting to lean back to the statement I had made ages ago, in a thread on him, about how I'd just rather be able to filter him, if there's really nothing that can be done with said generally bothersome and hurtful items.
If it was about lostpony then I think it was a terrible idea.
It's like the equivalent of someone in a highschool cafeteria standing on a table accusing another student in front of the entire class, for the sake of humiliation, rather than just going to the principal to voice concerns or report a disciplinary violation.
The fact that it was legitimized seemed like enough of a problem, but if it was the staffs idea, then the core of the problem is worse than I thought. Unless of course, he was asked to make a thread about something else. >>3578
Not saying that LP is blameless here. But in most cases, it seems his more hostile behaviors are mostly provoked rather than just spontaneous. Certainly he overreacts but he certainly isn't going around provoking arguments with people who threaten some prejudice or insecurity. And that was pretty much the same with many other people Manley has had frequent confrontations with.
I think a two week ban would be good for LP for that reason, but I am pessimistic it would make much difference with Manley at this point, as he is likely to consider this an injustice against him, while LP would be less likely to deny he's at fault and just accept it.
And as for one's intentions being hard to tell online, when one's behavior is so consistently typical with someone who is being manipulative IRL and that behavior goes on for as many years as it has ... and
in context of things that have happened offsite, it becomes more apparent that this behavior cannot so simply be attributed to "ignorance". >>3582
Nothing is going to change so long as Manley is bull headedly determined to deny that any instance of disciplinary action taken by the staff against him was ever justified. And I think that that is something that the staff should keep in mind next time this happens.>>3583
I think you misread me.
I was not arguing that LP shouldn't be punished, and I recognize this action as justified. However I also recognize it as a gesture of impartiality and against favrotism.
What I am expressing is a bit of doubt and pessimism over the possibility that the staff would be impartial in the future to recognizing when one party was deliberately provoking the other, which, from my perspective, is something that I think was missed when his public callout on /canterlot/ was given legitimacy.
You see, as I see it, LP is less naturally charismatic than Manley is and that, as I see it, biases the interpretation of people here, including the staff, to see this as anything but "oil and water not mixing". And it certainly does work in Manley's favor, and, again, as I see it, has left the staff rather blind to when he has been manipulative in the past. >>3595
It might give me shit from you, but as a person who has been on the receiving end of Manley's dishonesty off site, and who has suffered from all sorts of social ostracism from nasty rumors and deliberate public humiliations, I recognize Manley exhibiting the same displays of behavior that you might see of a charidmatic person who is trying to deliberately sour the reputation of a rival or trying to turn authorities against someone else by provoking them to get themselves in trouble (he even frequently accuses other people of doing this to him), like a kid trying to get a sibling in trouble with their parents. Something I had seen far too often done in real life against people who are not particularly socially adept or savvy to when that is what is being done to them.
And with Manley there has been a pretty blatant pattern of people whom he's targeted with this behavior. People who have stated that they are mentally ill, and people who are often both LGBT and/or flirty. Pretty much anyone who threatens his insecurities or is the object of many of his prejudices.
In any case, my point was not to shit on Manley, but to express pessimism of whether or not the staff would be able to recognize when Manley is deliberately manipulating the people here against anyone who he's decided he doesn't like.
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Personally, I'd be inclined to agree that LP's done some stuff that'd warrant a ban, at this point.However
, when we're talking disruptive members of the community, as an aspect, it's definitely Manley that's lead to far more disruption.
And LP's reaction to him is directly in response
to this, near as I can tell.
Also, I'm going to be blunt, here:>And i hope you will find the future actions of the staff, towards Manley, should hopefully cause some greater confidence.
You guys've been saying this for a while.
Now, maybe you actually mean it. I certainly don't want to assume the worst.
But, I feel, due to the way he never seems to understand his issue, the current handling is unfortunately inadequate.
What I would consider, if you're doing 'emergancy bans', is banning Manley until he understands what exactly he's done wrong.
Because, near as I can tell, he still doesn't understand it.
I've got to go to sleep, now, unfortunately. Kind of needed to for a while. But, given that you're activating full emergency bans at this point, I'd genuinely suggest starting to look at the origins of these issues more carefully. Looking at the rationale your users have. The why these things're happening, and why they feel justified in repeatedly doing the same thing over and over.
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I would have permanently banned them already.
That's all I can say.
woooooo! first time in forever posting in here. so lets go!
regarding the manley and LP bans, i am very well aware i'm not one to understand the true ramifications of their actions, as i choose not to get involved with the real drama stuff unless necessary.
So i'm speaking as somebody who is a friend of Manley, not as a mod or somebody who knows what is best for the site. That decision is still up to the mods.
but i will say this, manley is a good guy underneath alot of the drama and controversy he throws around, and there is a genuine core that is worth getting to know.
The thing that i have figured out about him since knowing him is that he tends to see reactions to him as being "attacks" and doesn't feel obligated to act respectfully in return, and i can understand his point to a degree. i don't always agree with it, but i do understand.
but another thing i've seen is that approaching him with respect and good faith, he will treat you in kind if you make steps to not rub against sensitive issues. In time, i've gained a good rapport, and we have really good discussions and i feel i know a side of him that is unfortunately very hard for people to see.
now, i cannot ask everyone to be nice to him, or to treat his specially compared to other posters. that is a lot to ask, and i understand that it will not be met by all participants. i won't argue the mods decisions on their points.
but what i do want to acknowledge is that manley is good, and has geniune kindness and an enlightened spirit that is wonderful to have known in my time with him. It does require careful approach, but he is a good guy.
so i personally would hate seeing him permabanned, although i understand the option and decision if that were to ever come up. He is a guy who needs love and to see some respect, even if it isn't always earned in the eyes of others.
And with that, i shall abscond from /canterlot/ for now. i hope everyone in here has a lovely day!
>>3576>And in all 7 years he's been in the ponychan/ponyville corner of the internet, he's never once really accepted that any ban he's ever received had in any way been justified, perpetually claiming victimhood status.^this
In the last thread here on /canterlot/, Manley still didn't understand why he got banned making an insinuation that LP is an 'asshole'. I don't know how people expect that he will behave better in the future if he doesn't understand why his past behavior was faulty.>>3576
I'm not sure I agree that Manley is intentionally being manipulative, but regardless, his behavior on this site has caused so much trouble with so many people, and he never seems to realize his fault or apologize for it or try to improve himself. In all discussion I've seen, Manley stubbornly sticks to his original opinions even after being provided strong evidence to the contrary, instead insisting that everybody else is wrong and generally infuriating other people.
LP, on the other hand, throws massive fits occasionally but usually accepts his blame after he cools off. In this last little episode, LP was clearly still fuming at Manley from that lizard empathy thread.
If Manley gets perma'd, I think LP would be a generally good poster without Manley continually getting his goat. But if LP gets perma'd, I'm fairly confident that Manley will end up trouble yet again, unless he has some sort of a radical intervention to improve his behavior.>>3608>but what i do want to acknowledge is that manley is good, and has geniune kindness and an enlightened spirit
I agree, but Manley has also persistently exhibited toxic behavior on this site. If Manley can admit his own faults and work to improve his behavior, that would be great and I would want him to stay. But I am worried that if Manley doesn't take any corrective steps, he'll just continue getting in trouble.>>3600>>3601
I agree that a filter would be useful in this case. Perhaps even a ruling that LP and Manley filter each other for a month or so to cool down.
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We finally really did it...
*falls on knee*
You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!
On a serious note, you did what you thought was the best for the community. Some of you might not like it and parts of the community might not like it, but some times you must stand up for the greater good. I got no personal problem with any of them, but if they cant put away their differences between them, then it will just hurt the rest of the community.
The fact of the matter is, as this thread shows, not everyone agrees that Manley was the greater of the two transgressors.
But we can all agree both have transgressed enough. >>3603
a permaban last-chance isn't enough?>>3607
Because Manley knows better now, and he has forewarning, with this thread. In that situation, it must logically follow that he knows he's about to sink both ships, and must therefore be acting with malice.
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Well, yeah. I'm not saying Manley is blameless. But LP is definitely not blameless either. I'd be fine seeing them both permabanned personally.
But it's not up to me. All I can do is weigh in and see what happens.
I don't think it really matters if he has a good side or not. He sees a lot of things as "attacks" against him, even if it's retaliation or just reaction or even justified punishment, from there he gets bullheaded and pretty obviously deliberately passive aggressive and stubbornly resistant. Not just incapable of seeing why he's wrong but deliberately refusing to accept when he's wrong
out of spite for anyone he's assumed has attacked him, even the mods, even to the point that he behaves as if he believes whomever he attacks deserves
whatever they get, and that the mods are wrong tostop him or punish him when they do so.
And the thing that just exacerbates all this is that he judges way to many things as attacks against him, oftentimes on the basis of whether or not they make him uncomfortable (like fleur being flirty in his own thread) or if they threaten his prejudices (like Flower being kind of eccentric and explaining that she has some Mental illnesses). Or in my case, I get genuinely disappointed with his behavior towards others and apparently that gave him license to lie to me about other people (by not telling the whole truth) and in turn lie about me to other people in this community, oftentimes accusing me of "just trying to make me feel bad" or something about how my own feelings were not actually legitimate or sincere.
Good side or not, it's completely unfair to capitulate to this paranoid way of thinking and stubborn bullheaded attitude of total self righteousness and self justification. It's like letting him know that he is
above the rules. It's like vindication for him in his mind.
And I am advocating for the mods to take that into consideration when judging his behavior when this two-week ban is up. >>3611
I'm honestly not convinced that Manley is not capable of understanding why his behavior is wrong, I'm more inclined to believe it's just a matter of bullheaded stubbornness with anyone telling him that something he's done or said is wrong, for reasons I explained to star up here.
I don't think, nor am I convinced that Manley is incapable of understanding other people's perspectives or feelings on things it's just that, if he's feels threatened or attacked, or really just bad about something in any way, he disregards all that and stubbornly refuses to admit to even a mistake. I don't think this is a problem of ability, but rather a problem of attitude and priorities.
And as for whether or not he's being intentionally manipulative? I am not sure if "manipulative" is the right word to use here. But I couldn't think of a better word for what one might call one who attempts to turn others against one another with a combination of things like personal charm, provocation, and maybe even gossip and half-truths.>>3613
Were you even reading what I said, what I was advocating? Or are you letting your feelings get the better of you?
I am offering a perspective that I think the mods should consider which, from my perspective, has not been considered in the past. I'm not arguing that in this
situation that LP and Manley aren't equally guilty of fighting with each other, but that overall
it seems like Manley is the bigger problem. And I am explaining why I think that is. I wasn't putting it up for a vote and the fact that others here don't see it the way I do doesn't really have much bearing on whether the reasons I gave shouldn't be taken into consideration.
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So does this mean the endless political insinuations will resume in 2 weeks?
can't wait for the next "Let's discuss Pokemon #652 and how anyone who doesn't like it is racist, Part II: Electric Boogaloo"
>>3615>I'm honestly not convinced that Manley is not capable of understanding why his behavior is wrong,
This I know for a fact is very much correct, what you have said here. Because he HAS improved on certain things. He HAS realized before that some of the stuff he did in the past was wrong. Not a lot, not on some of the most important aspects he is wrong on, but on enough to show that he is, in fact, capable of it.
He just doesn't want to. Not as a whole. I've talked to him personally about improving some things and he has shown that he wants to change as a whole. But when presented with things in the moment or by people he has decided he hates/hates him, he won't.
And it's sad, because I see such potential for growth in him as person, he is largely a product of his circumstances, but that does not mean we have to continue to cater to his bad actions forever.
It basically comes down to what you said here >I don't think, nor am I convinced that Manley is incapable of understanding other people's perspectives or feelings on things it's just that, if he's feels threatened or attacked, or really just bad about something in any way, he disregards all that and stubbornly refuses to admit to even a mistake. I don't think this is a problem of ability, but rather a problem of attitude and priorities.
It's not that he can't, it's that he won't if it's coming from the "wrong" person.
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i will also note that a lot of my outbursts and bans have come directly through interactions with Manley
i don't exactly blame him for my bad behavior, but if he wasn't around so much of the stuff I've done would never have happened, including most of my quarrels with Dizzy and her alters in the past. In fact, I'd go so far as to say my general attitude towards both this site and life in general would probably be a lot better now if he had never been around.
That said, I don't want him permabanned. Because if he had been more understanding and aware of how the stuff he does is wrong or hurtful, then that stuff wouldn't have happened either. (Though the Dizzy stuff may still have, but that's another thing entirely).
Moving on, since I saw it mentioned a few times in this thread...
I've been pushing for a system to filter users since the very beginning of this site and it has almost 100% been because of my desire to filter him.
Back then there wasn't much use for it. There wasn't as much wanton toxicity back then. But as things move forward, through all the bad shit that keeps happening, it seems like a better and better option.
One of the main reasons given for the refusal to add filters was because the administration didn't want to create echo chambers. But at this point, if an echo chamber means two sides of an argument don't get mixed up, then I, for one, would welcome an echo chamber or two.
Because it's no longer about getting people to be more open minded and educate themselves on other points of views, it's now about making sure big, explosive clashes don't happen every other day anymore. At least it is in my opinion.
Some may say that making a filter system specifically only for two or three (if I count Noonim wanting to ignore Manley for example) people to ignore each other causes more problems down the line, if everyone can use the filter system for anything.
But at the same time, I see it as a one or the other situation. Either we permaban either Manley or LP (or possibly both), which is too final of a solution as I like, or we implement a system that allows both of them to still exist on this site while also being kept separate.
I'm sure there's another option somewhere, other than "let's change the fundamental aspects of Manley", but I don't know it.
As for LP, well.
I dunno if he's at the point to deserve a permaban. As far as I'm aware his only real on-site outbursts and moments of rule breaking have had SOMETHING to do with Manley.
I'm just not really sure if we should permaban him because of his frequent problems with one specific person. It definitely seems like a normal decision from an administration point of view, but from a personal point of view it feels a bit odd.
Why punish someone so completely because of bad interactions with only one person? Manley at least has had problems with dozens of people over the years on this site, in regards to dozens of issues.
LP's alleged offsite misconduct notwithstanding, I don't know if we're at the point of permabanning him.
But maybe we are, maybe we shouldn't let it get to the same level as Manley, maybe it's time to be a bit more harsh.
The fact of the matter is, the majority of posts here seem to say otherwise.
Now, I can recognize that there's some outliers here, but, near as I can tell, most the posts so far that I've read have said Manley's got major problems, and even the ones defending him're just giving excuses.>a permaban last-chance isn't enough?
Given that it's being used against both
users, if only one of them does this, at least from what I had read>"After this two week period, if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user, i.e., making thinly veiled references to the other, an IMMEDIATE permaban shall follow for both users, unless it can be shown one user acted with malice to purposefully pull the both of them down (self-destructive revenge).
, I'm inclined to say it's not exactly fair, no.
Especially when one user will forever play the "i didn't do anything wrong" card. Has he ever understood a single ban he's received?
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I'd agree that LP's definitely not blameless. But, when we're talking threats to permaban the pair, it's my stance that Manley has been more consistent in his refusal to abide by the rules. Especially given when he is banned, every single time, he does not accept the ban. He refuses to acknowledge what he did wrong.
LP's got major issues that probably should end up on the chopping block at some point. He's generally rather quick to anger, rather manipulative, and can, frankly, be rather creepy at times.
But, he does seem to try to stick in the rules, most of the time. He does acknowledge what he does wrong, near as I can tell. And, perhaps most importantly, he seems to be capable of basic empathy.
I'll be honest with you: I'm not convinced Manley is.
>>3623>I'll be honest with you: I'm not convinced Manley is.
Manley might not be a very empathic person in general, but he is not made of rock.
He has shown empathy to me when we talk.
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That's fair, I guess. He's never shown that to me, in the slightest, though. after countless times are trying to explain him exactly why is constant negative assumptions about others, especially me, are incredibly hurtful, he still didn't understand it. And it was only after an extensive amount of badgering of the moderation staff that he was ever banned for it.
near as I can tell, he's never had any empathy for those he's hurt. Maybe he has empathy for those that he considers friends, or otherwise relates to, but, when it comes to people he's harmed, I've yet to see any.
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>>3613>The fact of the matter is, as this thread shows, not everyone agrees that Manley was the greater of the two transgressors.
Perhaps in this most recent episode. But in general, considering the years of this site's existence, I think Manley is far more toxic than LP. From what I have seen and remember on this site, Manley has seriously pissed off literally everyone with whom he has had a disagreement
. Once he decides that he is right, he stubbornly refuses to engage with any facts or logic that might prove him wrong. Basically, >>3615
is spot on:>I don't think, nor am I convinced that Manley is incapable of understanding other people's perspectives or feelings on things it's just that, if he's feels threatened or attacked, or really just bad about something in any way, he disregards all that and stubbornly refuses to admit to even a mistake. I don't think this is a problem of ability, but rather a problem of attitude and priorities.
If Manley somehow manages to radically alter his behavior, that would be great. But if he doesn't, I think he will be a significant net negative who continually stirs up shit and refuses to admit his own mistakes.
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Like I said, I'd be fine if they both ended up permabanned.
But I personally find it easier to deal with Manley than LP.
>>3613>Because Manley knows better now, and he has forewarning, with this thread. In that situation, it must logically follow that he knows he's about to sink both ships, and must therefore be acting with malice.
Well, I still think that the wording is really bad. It's written like "If person A
does something bad, then both A
get banned". A person should be punished only for his own actions.
Well, I can say, when there's not a disagreement involved, and he isn't being passive aggressive, I suppose he is easier to talk to.
It's just, when Manly feels slighted, he tends to really go off on people with a fair size more cruelty, frankly.
I have had extreme annoyances at LP before, but, he generally doesn't do the sorts of things Manley does.
I think overall he's definitely earned the aban, but, given that he seems more willing to change his behavior, and generally doesn't seem to cause the same particular issue, I feel like a perma ban might be a little bit more severe than necessary with him.
Though, I don't really know that much about him. I am still relatively new to this site, and I don't know his particular interactions with you guys.if he's had a similar standard of behavior over the years that doesn't seem to ever end up being fixed, I would largely agree. if people demonstrate that they don't have interest in changing generally toxic Behavior, then, there's not much we can do.
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I'll just toss this out there, Lost Pony creeps me out, he's always tossing very uncomfortable sexual innuendo at people, then when he doesn't get his way he throws a fit over it. Manley is just childish but that pedo vibe Lost Pony gives off really does bother me. Quite sure there are minors here so I'd humbly ask the mods to take that into consideration. I'm quite live and let live but that kind of behavior is where I draw the line. Just my 2 cents.
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He's a 50 year old man, he should not be acting like this.
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>>3633> Lost Pony ... [is] always tossing very uncomfortable sexual innuendo at people
Does he still do that? I haven't seen him do that here in ages. (Although I guess I might not be in the relevant threads.)>that pedo vibe Lost Pony gives off
What??? I've never gotten such a vibe from him. >>3634
LP has legit psychological difficulties. Let's not beat him up too much for it, shall we?
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We all have our perverted side but geez, a 50 year old dressed up as rainbow dash at SF pride. Whatever I have lots of LGBT friends too, they don't pull that crap. >>3635
He does, here and elsewhere. He's hit on me before, quite disgusting I think.
Dude, we all have mental problems but for gods sake it doesn't excuse his behavior. Like it or not we're all responsible for our actions, if I was to sperg out and break the law think that would matter much in court? Most likely not. We're all 100% responsible for our lives, that's not optional.
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while I do definitely agree that he can be kind of creepy from time to time, isn't this kind of a separate issue to the one largely being discussed here?
I mean, as far as I know, there aren't any rules really for occasional creepy comments.
I am not sure how you would, except maybe by forbidding flirting between users. Which, might not be that bad of a thing to do, honestly, considering but there are undoubtedly minors on the site.
Alright, after I got some sleep and work isn't stressing me out so much, I can say I agree with ya.
I was trying to make a case for Manley, as I think it's a bit how Jade phrased it the other day in that there is always a reason. It may not be a good reason, but there is a reason. But having said that, I also feel like I went about it pretty stupidly.
Your right, off-site stuff should stay off site.
I also didn't mean to imply lost pony was dangerous, I was just re-telling my bad experience to try and communicate more clearly. Also:>As much as I disrespect the man.
I don't know how I feel about him. I'm just...wary. It's difficult not to be when I've had the types of experiences I've had with people, and he sometimes displays similar behavior.
I don't know him off this site, I don't know him past words, but unfortunately, words are also all I have to go by.>>3597
Yeah I don't know. I just don't know.>>3602>like a kid trying to get a sibling in trouble with their parents.
This is...I think a little more clear then what was said earlier. This I can see, and yes, I think you have a point.>And with Manley there has been a pretty blatant pattern of people whom he's targeted with this behavior. People who have stated that they are mentally ill, and people who are often both LGBT and/or flirty. Pretty much anyone who threatens his insecurities or is the object of many of his prejudices.
While I don't disagree with you, because yes I have seen the same pattern, I do believe it comes from a place of fear, and as you said, insecurity. I also believe that he has come along in these fears and in getting over some of them and not judging people so quickly and harshly. But you know, people fall back sometimes. There's bumps in the road. However, if I didn't think he was capable, and showed no signs of changing, I would have let him go as a friend a long time ago.>In any case, my point was not to shit on Manley, but to express pessimism of whether or not the staff would be able to recognize when Manley is deliberately manipulating the people here against anyone who he's decided he doesn't like.
While I disagree a little with the basis, I do see your point and think it's valid. >>3598>But as you say his behavior is still bad even if its not manipulative.>I'm not in favor of permabanning one of my friends but he needs to take control of himself.
I unfortunately agree... He's capable of change, I know he is, but it's slow and hard. And Manley, if you read this, cause I know you probably will, I really hope you take this thread to heart man.
This isn't just about site drama. This is stuff that's going to leak out into your life offline, if it hasn't already, and I'm honestly scared for you man.
These are your friends on here, and while I know you tend to feel like people are against you, you know for a fact Moony loves you. So you also need to realize how long, and just how much trouble you have caused yourself to have ever gotten him to consider such an action.
I know it wasn't his decision alone, obviously, but he was a part of it, and your friends here are agreeing with it. You need to not ignore what that means.
Do you remember that conversation we had a while back involving Fleur? And I had to dig in deep and specifically point out where you said you 'didn't care'?
Don't not care about this man. Don't not care about your friends.
We'll hold you up if you need us to, but you have to be willing to put your own two feet on the ground. Whatever that means for you.
If this site isn't a good place for you mentally, to be, then leave it.
You have me on discord and Skype, you know I'll be there if you want to talk, but you have to take care of yourself man or one day you are going to push everyone away for one reason or another. It's already started here, and I don't want that for you but I can't hang on forever either.
>>3636>We all have our perverted side but geez, a 50 year old dressed up as rainbow dash at SF pride. Whatever I have lots of LGBT friends too, they don't pull that crap.
I can admit that is something the average person would not do, but are we going to start judging?
The most of the population of internet would consider the vast userbase of this webside to be 'weaks'. Will we tag people as well?
However, I agree. He over-sexualizes situations.>>3638>He's capable of change, I know he is, but it's slow and hard.
Ella, let us just put our hands on our hearts and say it:
Manley needs help, the kind of help a professional may provide.
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That does not excuse any of the bullshit he's done. >>3636
Yeah, I was pretty shocked when I found out his age too.
In all honesty it's this attitude that makes me most pessimistic about whether or not this two week ban would have any difference on this site.
It's honestly completely baffling to me that people here would think that someone being a little creepy and hypersensitive is equal to someone who deliberately picks fights unprovoked and refuses to accept that none of it is justified, or that anything they did was wrong or actually broke the rules, or to even attack any rule that inconveniences them.
It seems like Manley has unfairly had 8 years of second chances, and always seems to get these second chances cause he's not creepy or uncharismatic?
And the fact that this attitude and pattern seems to be shared by the moderators doesn't give me any confidence that Manley won't find some way to weasel out of this through them in the near future.
Oh and Noonim, LP is fairly new here too, Manley has been around these two websites since about 2011. Personally I think that probably speaks about potential favoritism amongst the staff here.
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i don't think whether you think Lost Pony is "creepy" belongs here
so kindly knock it off? his personal off-site behavior or fashion choices or cosplaying is really none of your business
>>3637>I am not sure how you would, except maybe by forbidding flirting between users. Which, might not be that bad of a thing to do, honestly, considering but there are undoubtedly minors on the site.
I think an option to mark text as lewd would be helpful, like the option to mark images as lewd.>>3639>I can admit that is something the average person would not do, but are we going to start judging?
I agree 100%. Lots of people think all of us here on Ponyville.us are weirdos for liking (or having liked) MLP:FIM
. Do we really need to call out LP for being "creepy" by normie standards?
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But some of us are not talking about his off-site behavior. He's been creepy on-site. I think that belongs here.>>3644
I dunno, him over-sexualizing situations is pretty fucking creepy for an MLP board.
but some of you are
this is not a place for you to jump around accusing people of being creepy for behaving differently than you
if you want to get on the sexualization boat, you and I both
know manley has done far more sexualizing
, especially of MLP characters
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My point is they both fucking deserve this
For fuck's sake, I'm not saying Manley doesn't, but people seem pretty goddamn quick to jump to LP's defense when he too has made people uncomfortable in other ways.
Everyone knows Manley's song and dance by now. It's not worth routinely going over.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I completely do not consider them to be evil. At the end of the day, LP doesn't start these things. At least not usually. he doesn't deliberately go after people like manly seems to.
And his mild creepiness about him, as far as I'm concerned, is a separate issue to the topic at hand.
It is something to note, and potentially address at a later date, I would say personally, but, certainly does not compare to the general attitude in harassment Manley seems to engage in.
As far as what will likely come about through this particular course of action, the way I see it, even if a perma bans are issued, at some point I am sure Manley will give a half-hearted appeal, that will ultimately be accepted, and this entire thing repeat. I suspect I'd probably be the one on The chopping block next after that.
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Simple solution, either make an 18+ section of the site where that's allowed or just screencap and send it to the feds. >>3639
How about this? The Mods or someone just confronts him over it? Let him know a lot of us find it uncomfortable. If that works? Great! If not we go from there.>>3641
I get it, guy had a lot of bad shit happen to him, so do a lot of us that's life. People are shitty and it's getting worse, it's your life own it and do something about it.>>3642
There may be that. Flip side is sooner or later it will start chasing the good people away. >>3643
Yet he posts it here, saw him flirting with someone who was a minor, was so damn tempted to screen cap it and send it to the feds. Also, he's been quite creepy here and no one does anything about it. I'm just a random visitor but I know places like this have had people send lewds to minors, if their parents find out and start a lawsuit, well would not want to be you guys. Civil court is a bitch.>>3645
Cool, ban em both. Problem solved.>>3647
Have to admit I get sick and tired of his race bating, i'm mixed race myself and I don't parade it everywhere.>>3648
Can always do things the /b/ way, screencap everything and when he does something dumb try to get him van'd. Hate to be extreme but hey, sometimes that's what it takes.
typically it's more about the comments made directly to posters. At least that's how I feel. But, ultimately, I do agree that it doesn't really have a place here in this particular discussion.
I do just want to clarify though, it isn't his particular way of dress, cosplay, or interests oh, it's his more flirting attitude towards others that pops up on occasion.
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I know you and I rarely get along but I second this 100%.
I'm not always great with words but yes, that is what I was trying to get at. >>3650>Have to admit I get sick and tired of his race bating, i'm mixed race myself and I don't parade it everywhere.
Yeah, I gotcha.
Christ I've gotten so fucking numb to Manley that I forgot that's a thing. This ban is reminding me of the shit I put up with.
you're the last person i'd ever want to see using a Luna avatar, at this rate
if you have an issue with his behavior, or find it inappropriate, we have a cool Report feature for that
we've gotten almost no reports about LP being inappropriate or creepy
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Now how Manley and Lost Pony are banned from two weeks.
Are you going take this opportunity to create threads to discuss different topics?
In my case I ever wanted to discuss with people about what they think about Princess Peach being kidnapped all the time by Bowser if she had stockholm syndrome or she has another reason to let her being kidnapped by Bowser (ignoring that stageplay theory)
Or disscuss with people something about Legend of Zelda and Earthbound
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Gotta admit, seen him do some really creepy shit.>>3653
It's shit like that which can kill a community, the good people get sick of it and leave. Either that or well, sooner or later they piss off the wrong people and shit happens. Internet isn't a safe place. Sure a few of us came here from the chans, considering this place has so many named posters would be piss easy to be a prick. Not advocating it, just saying.
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But muh moonbutt ;_;
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I am gonna make a LoZ topic right now :DDD>>3656
Part of me is just kicking myself because I try to make my own site a pretty safe place. If Manley or LP were trying shit, I would have banned them immediately on the first go. But I'm also a much stricter admin on my site.
Manley has already chased the good people away. Its seems like everyone else is just oblivious to that or in denial cause they may personally like him.
That's pretty much making this site rather toxic, cause it seems like people here are perfectly willing to placate him, patronize him and generally not treat him like an actual adult because "he can change". While not extending the same benefit of the doubt to someone else simply because they're "creepy" and not as familiar.
Here's one, wow Link reminds me of a teutonic folk hero of sorts. >>3658
I draw a line with that, esp. when there are minors involved. Besides being illegal AF, it's wrong. >>3660
Screencaps and doxing work wonders lol..
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I guess the constant forgiveness here frustrates me now and then. I know staff is doing their best, but these problems have been going on for years and only now does it really seem like something is being done.
Absolutly on the Germanic folk hero part or what I said about pedos?
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If he can change, he needs to change already, as opposed to getting a massive amount of leeway by the staff, while he repeatedly says for all to hear that he doesn't believe he actually broke any rules when he is, rarely, banned.
Others have mentioned it, but, I don't anybody else would get as much consideration and forgiveness as he does.
I am quite confident I would be banned rather quickly if I was doing what he does.>>3655
I am thinking I might make a world-building thread. Something to discuss the more finer details of animalistic people's, like lizards, dragons, bird folk, and so on.
It's kind of a minor thing, but, his constant "X animals have no empathy" nonsense has kept me from it since I feel that'd inevitably take over the thread.
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The latter initially but I also agree about the former. >>3664>world-building thread
Hell yeeeeaaaaahh I fucking love world building.
The old gods never went away, they still have maypole celebrations and sunwheels.
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Right now I'll be out
I'm going to grocery store to buy things I need.
When I return I'll be there.>>3661
I'm going to watch it later.>>3659
I can bet there are many users who want to discuss things but they are afraid about Manley and LP messing the thread arguing to the point their threads gets locked.>>3664
Then take this opportunity to discuss topics, you are interested and have fun.
If you make it I will be there.
I need to go
See ya later
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Hey, play stupid games win stupid prizes.
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Have proof? Screencaps? I'm waaaating.
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Yeah, thing is i'm not the one here doxing himself while acting like a 50 year old pedo. Also hey, that's life. When people get shit on and the powers that be do nothing? Sooner or later people take matters into their own hands, human nature.(/canterlot/ ban, for 24 hrs; Multiple Violations of Rules 1; 5; 7, potentially 6. Not acceptable behavior.)
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this thread is not a casting call to see who can replace Manely and LP as the next fightiest couple.
this thread has gotten way, way out of hand, and to those responsible, you know who you are.
it's /canterlot/, and the standards of conduct are higher here. >>3670
i know the Lunanon was really getting on your nerves, sailboat, but that's really not an okay way to handle it. We're in Rule 1, Rule 7 territory, with this and the last post, Sailboat. Please consider this a warning, and please do not escalate the fight further. Your offenses are not really the primary issue. >>3656
[Pretty much every post in this thread, from this user, is a violation of Rule 1]
The weight of evidence suggests, however, a violation of Rule 5, and Rule 7, as well. And a serious one, at that.
i've elected to issue a /canterlot/ only ban for the Lunanon, given the weight of the offenses therein, for 24 hours.
Further violations during or after this period may lead to additional sanction.
Ponies, there are better, more mature ways of handling these issues than the way we've acted here. Some of these points might even be good ones. but they are lost in the outright incivility.
Thank you all for your understanding.
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Thread is unlocked.
Please do not continue the fight we just locked the thread over. thank you.
Eh...I don't agree with the attitude behind your reasoning. But I get not liking, even downright hating, people who have done you wrong. I think it would be best if us two stopped discussing this together.>>3675>>3676
What do you want us to discuss specifically Moony?
If it's just the bans themselves, I agree with it and am on board. It's not like this came out of nowhere.
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Personally, I am of the opinion that the two-week bands for both of them are ultimately justified, but, perma bans our little bit more hazy.
I don't think that LP deserves a permaban.
Ultimately, near as I can tell, he mostly remained polite, for quite an extensive chunk of time, while Manly was repeatedly rude to him and other users all over the site.
I would say without manly, the likelihood of LP getting into trouble a gang is significantly lessened.
I don't know. Maybe. But lp had just as much of a responsibility not to engage.
I don't know Noomin. I think maybe I should stay out of this. I don't think I'm going to be much good discussion wise, any further.
It is really hard not to engage with somebody. Especially when they are constantly belittling you, making countless comments, or just generally being rude about things.
It's why I ended up making a massive thread pestering the mod specifically to do something about it, one way or the other, whether that had been implementing a filter system, or, as they ultimately did, issuing a ban.
Truth be told, I think a filter option would fix most of these issues here.
But, I understand Moony has strong and versions to the concept of filtering users.
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i think, if i could choose, we would not have to discuss too much
thank you for your input, ella enchanted <3 >>3677
hm... yes :c >>3679
i think, the trouble is, the opinions of observers differs, concerning Manley and LP. The fact of the matter is though, both are responsible for the escalation and fights that have arisen.
If what you say is true, Manley will end up permabnning himself, and LP will be okay. If not, then it is what it is.
But at this point, i feel as if the staff has truly exhausted its options and work-hours, trying to get this all to work.
I don't mean to overstep, but if I may offer my own advice?
When subordinates are asked to become emotionally invested in a problem then burnout becomes a very real concern. I know you don't have a good role model for it and that you usually drive yourself harder as a way to solve problems, but one of a leader's duties is ensuring that his subordinates aren't emotionally damaged by what they're asked. The worst part of this current affair has already happened now so in my opinion it would be prudent to take stock of your human resources, see what condition they are in, and take corrective actions accordingly. More pragmatically, a proper debrief may benefit the emotional endurance of the leader and the integrity of the team as a whole.
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As far as I can see, at least here in this thread, the popular opinion seems to definitely be that men lie is worse than LP. There are some who think both our problems, but, even the most apologetic people for manly seem to be suggesting that oh, while he still has issues, he's not a bad guy and can change. Which is not really a good the defense, in my opinion.
if he's not a bad guy, fine, but, he shouldn't be allowed back until he can demonstrate that he can change.
As of yet, as stated, every time he's been banned, he's refused to understand the why.
As for whether or not manly would end up getting himself permabanned, due to the way you had phrased it, I feel it is going to inevitably result in LP getting caught in the crossfire regardless. Because unfortunately, you made no clause for the aggressor. This has been a problem on the site for a while. Is why I have, and it would seem others, had the feeling that there was favoritism going on between the site staff and manly. Because at the end of the day, I get a good heavy slap on the wrist for anything I do, while he does not. Not unless there is a huge fuss created about specifically that, anyway.
this is not something only I have observed. Others have made mention of it here in this thread. I know LP feels this way, as he's expressed it numerous times.
In this regard, what I feel will inevitably happen is, manly will start something, he and LP will get perma banned, he will make a half-hearted appeal, and he will be allowed back. And then this will likely continue, just as it is now, they'll probably with me, instead of LP.
I understand the staff is very exhausted by this problem. However, I have to say, I don't see why it is such a problem. If you enforce the rules when it comes to Manley, the entire problem goes away. That's a simple fact. You would not have this problem if you simply permabanned manly.
you have ample reason to do so. He has demonstrated countless times that he does not respect the authority given, nor does he demonstrate the capacity to learn from the bands he has received in the past. He has repeatedly done the exact same thing that he was banned for. Over and over again, he takes advantage of your generosity. And at the end of the day, he simply refuses to grasp why what he has been doing countless times is wrong.
To me, that behavior is plenty enough justification to permanently ban somebody.
in truth, I don't really understand why you haven't done this before. It makes me wonder what he has on you.
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Last week's "Transformers: Police are Decepticons in Disguise" thread was a real good one.
I swear, if I didn't know any better, I'd think he was just baiting.
If I am entirely honest, I am not sure I do know better.
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>>3685>As of yet, as stated, every time he's been banned, he's refused to understand the why.^this
If Manley comes back without admitting to and apologizing for his poor behavior, chances are that's he just going to do it again. Noonim and I tried to get him to understand his last one-day ban, but to no avail. Really, someone from the mod team should talk with him before he is allowed back. I think Manley has the potential be a good user, but he needs to stop treating as an enemy anyone who disagrees with him.>>3686
I tried to offer Manley some advice in that thread (specifically my post >>>/pony/917812), but I'm afraid it went in one ear and out the other.
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It wasn't the first time this had happened, either. When he was ultimately banned over Christmas for his interactions with me, I tried to explain exactly what my problems were and she'll get him to understand. Nothing I said seem to ever get through. And ultimately, directly after, he claimed he didn't agree with the ban at all. No matter what I said, or anyone else for that matter, he acted as though it was entirely unjust and unfounded.
I would have normally thought that unapologetic attitude would make these kinds of things result in a harsher punishment, not a lesser punishment.
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Yeah, I saw the OP: insta-hide-thread.
I used to follow the brony community as a whole, and I've seen enough instances of "people taking the law into their own hands" - doxing people over perceived slights, mistaken identity, or just flat-out lies. People make claims of illegal activity, but oh, how convenient... they won't take that activity to the police, because they know there's no merit to the claims and not enough evidence to prove anything in court. If doxing and ruining someone's life is your go-to solution for solving internet drama, then I want nothing to do with you or anyone who associates with you.
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They have an entire section devoted to bronies and furries. There are also entire brony YouTube channels devoted to propagating and endorsing this sort of behavior.
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Problem is that's just how people are. Had a friend say that as a rule people are garbage, thing is up until the past few years with social media they were relativly powerless, living angry, spiteful lifes. Now with things the way they are it's so easy to ruin someone it's not funny. This will continue as our society colapses further and the competition for resources intensifies. Saw an article, there are so many graduating lawyers, even those from good schools will struggle to find work. Naturally when people get stepped on they get angry. Scary thing is doxxing has proven to be a very easy and relativily safe way to get back at someone. Simple solution to this, don't be an asshole. Either that or don't leave yourself open to attack, it's for that reason I don't have much of a digital footprint. Hell only reason why I have a facebook is for family, I haven't posted in years.
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Explaining it doesn't change my stance on the issue in the least.
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I get you. We may have misunderstood each other in the past. TBH I abhor the doxing practice, it's a never ending, vicious circlejerk. Thing is, nowadays people are so shitty it's becoming all the more popular sadly. Doxing is like the nuke/biological warfare route of revenge, terrifying and pretty much nothing works against it.
I've had somebody threaten it against me a while back.
He had some rather insane pics of my personal politics.
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I agree with you, there.>>3704
I used to find the drama entertaining, but then it went way too far.
i am not sure what this conversation is, but having been doxx'd... a lot... i do not like it, at all, and find it very serious and frightening. >>3707>>3704
the drama is why we left ponychan, to begin with :c
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I was expanding on my previous statements regarding Lunanon's post:>>3661>Screencaps and doxing work wonders lol..
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i do not understand what is kiwifarms
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Well, it definitely did that. Maybe it's because I've heard enough stories about people who've being lied about in that kind of capacity, but, needless to say, it was something I was worried about. And now, I'm rather careful about giving out any kind of information about me, because of it.
Probably less careful than I should be, in all honesty. But, still.
Kiwi Farms was a discussion forum and online community dedicated to gossip about various internet users, often referred to as "lolcows." In January 2017, the site was temporarily closed by its owner Joshua Moon amid a controversial doxing campaign.
Starting in 2007, a community of internet users formed around an interest in YouTuber and webcomic artist Chris-Chan. In January 2009, the CWC Wiki was launched, which archived information related to Chris-Chan, including his online presence and personal life. In February 2015, the CWCki Forums were renamed to Kiwi Farms. On July 30th, 2015, a page for Kiwi Farms was created on Encyclopedia Dramatica.
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...are we like them? i do not understand. thati s a scary thought!
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i have never even heard of this place before today, iw ill not wish to go.
i hope we aren ot like that
more of the same, innit?
You can't really separate yourself from the drama if your userbase is the source of said drama
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quite to the contrary, it is miles better. miles. miles and miles.
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But I'm here gently stirring the pot.
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an unstirred pot makes poor fondue
>>3664>I don't anybody else would get as much consideration and forgiveness as he does.
I can speak for myself personally that I have been given much consideration and forgiveness over the last few years for my own attitude and actions.
While I am not quite at the same level as Manley, there is still a lot given to me.
In general, this site's staff are the most likely to give everyone the same amount of leeway as Manley. The only problem is that so far Manley has been the only one causing so much trouble for so many years.
So it's really a measure of lacking data, you can't really say the staff wouldn't do it to other people because they've never had to.
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It is harsh, yes, but it is true.
I speak, though, not mainly of recent times since we have become friends and understand each other a bit better, but of times long past now.
I also want to mention that the whole "just look the other way" thing is absolute bullshit. Because the problems between us have rarely been about petty shit. It has always been about very important things, mostly in the realm of socio-economics and identity politics. Things that I absolutely cannot just look away from. The problem is not that I engaged, it is how I engaged. And how he engaged. They were all things that could have been discussed more calmly than they were.
That is not to say there have not been incidents between me and him where I could have just looked away and I didn't, and those are incidents that I do not count into what I said.
But regardless, it is just simple fact that things would not have gone the way they did if he had never been around.
I specifically said, if you read what I posted, that I don't blame him for my bad behavior, I am simply just stating that many incidents that got me in trouble would not have happened if not for Manley being around.
EDIT: In truth, Manley has always been the type of person to bring both the best and the worst out of me. It just so happens that the best has always been in private, and the worst has usually been in public.
It's not that I wish he HAD never been here, or even that I want him gone. If it seemed that way, I did not mean it to.
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Crucify the asshole, he had no compassion for the people he's shit on. For fucks sake man grow a pair, all that chucklefuck is doing is using you, if you don't do something more people will leave and word will get around you let garbage people shit all over you and the fanbase here. Some people are just assholes, is what it is.
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I mean, I would've preferred it be dealt with prior to it getting to this point, but, yeah, for the here and now, a ban for a stretch isn't a bad idea, and, LP did do some stuff warranting a ban.
My only point of concern is the way the other part was phrased.>After this two week period, if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user, i.e., making thinly veiled references to the other, an IMMEDIATE permaban shall follow for both users, unless it can be shown one user acted with malice to purposefully pull the both of them down
It seems this means that LP could do literally nothing, and still end up permabanned.
Not really what I'd call 'fair'.
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Yeah, I agree.
This is also good for you, Mooney. You seem to often let your personal opinions and relationships with people color your judgement as a leader. I mean this specifically in regards to me, as many people involved with the last incident told me that you continued to extol my virtues despite the depths of my faults at the time.
You should look past your personal feelings more often. Compassion is a good trait for a leader, but too much will eventually ruin their community.
>>3733>It's not that I wish he HAD never been here, or even that I want him gone. If it seemed that way, I did not mean it to.
That is how it seemed, yes. I do appreciate your honesty. I know that he has made a lot of enemies but I worry that, you know, when you're in a bad spot and all you seem to be hearing is "wish that person had never been here; none of this would have happened if they hadn't been here", well think of how that might get twisted up in the head.
That type of thing can quickly get twisted by the brain to mean "better if I had never existed, better if I'm just gone".
That's what my fear was. I know he's probably feeling pretty insecure right now, but I do think you are his friend and I hope that if you and him talk anytime soon, he listens to you.
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If Manley feels that way about it, he will most likely come to me on Discord. But hopefully he'll also read what I just said and end up understanding.
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Will say, hope they start getting strict, supposedly Lost Pony and his buddies ran Fleur off finally, how many others do you think Manley has run off? Thing is, two things could happen here. One, more good people leave and this place really goes to shit, or Manley/Lost Pony finally piss someone off and they resort to tactics that Lunaanon was pushing for. Either way, both options would involve this place really going to hell, no one wants that.
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I don't know if I would go so far as to say Fleur is "good people", but aside from my opinion of him nobody should be ran off the site. Only if they break the rules should they be removed. Vigilante "justice" in these terms is definitely not okay.
I'd certainly prefer more enforcement of civility rules. I mean, the whole reason they were there to begin with is to keep this sort of shit from happening.
But, then, I'm still a tad salty from the whole "tool" item I got a bit ago. So, it might be less that I want stricter ruling, more that I'd simply like to see action taken, at all, as opposed to considering things "settled".
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Fleur was neutral at best, take a look at his rants and what he went through, big suprise he was a basket case.
Not saying it's ok, far from it. It's more like I'm saying things are what they are and human nature is what it is.
People are spiteful, it's why we have rules and police, without em we'd just murder eachother.>>3747
See above, if you don't sooner or later a shit storm starts. (BANNED FOR MULTIPLE COUNTS OF BAN EVASION)
I barely know the dude, so I don't want to cast judgement on Fleur.
All I can tell you for certain, is this guy right here:>>3748>>3745>>3633>>3636>>3650>>3657>>3656>>3669>>3671>>3674
Is the same dude that went on a psychotic and racist spam spree a little while back after saying all liberals should die.
And, this dude in this thread is giving off a total Fleur vibe to me, but I could be wrong, I dunno.
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I got the message, but I'm sorry for overreacting. It's something I feel very strongly about.
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Can somebody give me the TL;DR?
Ban users = problems solved?
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Manley and lost pony got banned for two weeks, and as far as I can tell, if they come back after the two weeks and start their shit again, it's a permaban.
The rest of the thread is a combination of people defending them mixed with a Festivus Airing of Grievences both about them and how things even got to this point.
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It's probably worth throwing in there's a fair bit of question about the way the particular threat of permabans was phrased.
Needless to say, the suggestion that both'd be banned purely for a single user's actions is not ideal.
I really don't think that's going to happen.
If an effort is made, it will be seen.
But it better be a damn good and sincere effort.
At this point though, in my own opinion, I don't think a place like this is necessarily a mentally healthy place for everyone.
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Well, that's the thing: No effort is required to simply not post.
Yet, simply not posting can still result in a user getting in trouble, going by the way it was phrased.
If one of them does something, regardless of if the other does anything, both are banned. The only exception to this was if it was proven one was doing so specifically to get the other banned.
>>3767>Yet, simply not posting can still result in a user getting in trouble, going by the way it was phrased.
That's what I'm saying isn't going to happen.
By that reasoning one could just make a random post saying "fuck you" to the other, and both would get banned even if the other did nothing.
Yeah, no, that's stupid and I don't think the staff is stupid. I think it's pretty stupid to even think they would do something so obviously wrong.
But I don't think any of this is going to be a problem anyway.
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>>3768>Yeah, no, that's stupid
But that is how it is literally worded. I agree that the site staff certainly won't actually do that, but the way that it is worded is really bad.
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I will say
In spite of all the drama and all
with Manley and Lost Pony gone, that's like a good chunk of Ponyville traffic gone.
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I've been thinking of possible alternatives to permabans for Lost Pony and Manley. I've noticed that Lost Pony sometimes gets really angry and make nasty posts, and then cools down a few days later. So my suggestion is that, instead of a permaban, Lost Pony can be made an offer: he will agree that mods will feel free to ban him for a few days whenever his posts are even vaguely angry or too confrontational with another user, not as punishment, but as giving him time to cool down. (Such a ban could be issued with a message like "User was given a few days to cool down" so that other users will know that he is gone for a few days.)
And I think Manley has a problem with being stubborn and too confrontational when he disagrees with other people, so I think he can be offered a similar deal: Whenever he gets too confrontational (at the mods' sole discretion), he'll be given a mandatory leave of absence for a day or two, even if he isn't breaking any of the rules.
I think this can be done in way that doesn't require a lot of effort from the site staff. It might not be entirely fair to Manley and Lost Pony, but it's better for them than a permaban. This site doesn't have many posters; at the PACTA vote, I think we had around 20--30 people? If there's a good alternative to permanently jettisoning 7% of the current userbase, it seems to me like a wise idea to explore it.
Also, in regards to the nuke clause: it has the benefit of being an easily administered "bright line" rule, but it has a significant drawback of covering a lot of innocent behavior. Like if Manley and Lost Pony are just having a friendly discussion about Pokemon, they'll both get permabanned for engaging with each other. I think it can be changed to cover only negative engagement without too much more effort from the site staff for enforcement.
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A filter, in general, would solve the majority of these issues.
I know there's distaste for the concept, but, it isn't like a name's a permanent thing. If someone decides to rebrand themselves, after discovering most folk've filtered them, they can always do so.
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Yeah. I still think it's kinda fucked up that Lost Pony and Manley will get permabanned for just having a friendly discussion about Pokemon though. If the site staff want to suggest that LP and Manley completely avoid each other, that's a fine suggestion, but issuing a permaban just for some friendly conversation seems really unjust.
The whole phrasing is off that way. People're saying the mods'd probably not do stuff like that, but, like, that's how it's been phrased. That's how it's presented here.
Personally, though, I'm of the opinion if you're going to force users to ignore others, a filter ought be an option, regardless.
Personally, I'm skeptical that having a filter option available would make any difference in this case because there is no real guarantee that it would even be used.
And considering that Manley has at times jumped into threads to announce that he is hiding it, only to jump back in later and admitted that he unhid the thread "to see if anyone was talking about me behind my back" I would seriously doubt Manley would use the filter if he felt the need to keep watch of someone he had a grudge against.
Plus, filters may hide post by certain user names, but they certainly don't hide responses to post by the person being filtered ... which just draws people into turning off filters to see what's going on in a thread.
Manly'd be the one I imagine most'd filter, though. Primarily because of that attitude.
You aren't exactly wrong, though. People still get in to fights without them. But, I think it'd lessen them significantly.
The mods aren't always going to be there in time to stop a situation from happening. They would still have plenty of opportunities to get themselves into trouble. >>3777
Being unable to interact with each other is a small price to pay for ruining the site with stupid fights for months on end. They clearly can't get along, and a suggestion without the threat of a permaban behind it is obviously going to be ignored the first time one of them posts something that sets the other one of.
Well, probably worth noting, it isn't just them two.
Manley's had quite a few fights with other users just as well, after all. Usually going the same way.
Only real difference is, LP is less level-headed when he runs in to these fights.
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>After this two week period, if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user, i.e., making thinly veiled references to the other, an IMMEDIATE permaban shall follow for both users, unless it can be shown one user acted with malice to purposefully pull the both of them down (self-destructive revenge).
What exactly does "engage" mean in this context? Suppose Lost Pony comes back after his ban is over and makes a thread genuinely apologizing to Manley and other people. Does that count as "engaging" with Manley? A genuine apology certainly isn't malicious, so if it does count as "engag[ing]", then it would cause both Lost Pony and Manley to be immediately permabanned. Buy permabanning Manley in this case would be absurd, so my conclusion is that such an apology would not count as "engag[ing]". Which leaves me very confused about what "engage" means here.
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To be frank, I don't believe making an apology over this would be genuine.
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Doushite? Lost Pony can get hot-headed in the moment, but I've talked to him after the ban, and he sure seems to regret baiting Manley in that sexy Pokemon thread.
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If you want to put up the effort to make a huge public apology thread, you better truthfully mean it and keep straight from there on.
Only, what likely happens is that you lose control again 2 days later, shit over Manley and the site staff for being assholes, threaten to leave and flush all good intentions in your apology to the sewer.
Best to just get back in the groove, try to be as kind as possible, if you really care apologise to others and person and try to not slip up.
I feel that apology threads and such are just big pieces of playing the victim.
I'd agree with this. There's also the trouble of exactly what the apology's for.
Given that it's his reaction to someone else generally stirring up trouble and constantly poking or tossing around comments, an apology runs the risk of excusing that behavior.
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Near as I could tell, he didn't. Not until Manley started getting pissy at his mere presence, anyway. First post he made was him defending Manley from the pedophilia accusation he had got.
Look, I'm certainly not going to say LP did nothing wrong, here. He definitely overreacted. But, when it comes to an apology, you've really got to be in the complete wrong, else you end up providing an excuse for otherwise scummy behavior. Especially when the behavior you're apologizing for was something that's been built up over a long time of general rough treatment from the other guy.
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>>3789>I feel that apology threads and such are just big pieces of playing the victim.
How so? I don't see how admitting that one is at fault and apologizing for it is "playing the victim". Seems kinda the opposite.
But let's consider another scenario. Suppose Lost Pony makes a thread, and Manley reads the OP and gets really interested in the topic and responds (either forgetting or without noticing who made the thread) with a good, high-quality post. Neither user did anything malicious. Does this count as engagement? If so, then both posters will be permabanned, but it seems absurd to ban them in that scenario, so I conclude that it doesn't count as "engagement". But then the question is, what does
count as "engagement"?
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Artee has a point. Yes, you're right that someone saying they are at fault and apologizing for it is the complete opposite of playing the victim, but that's rarely how people actually make apology threads.
They tend to say sorry, sure, but not really admit their fault 100% or end up making excuse after excuse about their behavior, rather than just saying sorry and trying to make up for it.
Really, you get both types of Apology threads. It's pretty easy to determine which kind is which, though.
Saying that something was all his fault, but then throwing in "it's obvious you don't want to talk to me anymore because you've found better friends", thereby making the person he's apologizing to look like an asshole.
I explained that that was what I thought of his apology, and while he denied that that was his intention, he still thanked me for the insight. And he and that person are mostly okay with each other nowadays. But shit like that deserves to be called out.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that lost pony was generally untrustworthy. I was just saying that it's a thing that can happen
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There's a SteamTwist syndrome.
Grovel along about how you'll improve your life and how you see you made mistakes and will do better from now on.
Then 3 threads in make a huge post about how you're always the victim and all the mods and posters have been out to get you.
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No need to bring him into this.
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My clock says ban's up.
Posting here to minimize attention whoring perception; i have a few points.
1. I am very, truly and deeply sorry, Manley. For baiting you, then harassing you, for thinking ill of you and being a huge pain in your ass and getting you in trouble for the last two years. You didn't deserve it, and i don't think you deserved this ban either. You've always been a friend to me even at our worst, and i've been a real shithead to you.
2. I am truly sorry, Moons, for creating a fuss on your site then screaming at you in front of everypony. I'm even more sorry for the things i said to you offsite. I wish i was as good a friend as you are.
3. I take full responsibility for the whole debacle. My behavior was monstrous. However, there will be no groveling or begging, no false promises of doing better and frankly, aside from Moons and Manley, im not really sorry to the rest of you who chose to stand by and "be offended" while i was having an autistic meltdown. This is what happens to me, and if any of you had gotten off your judgy high-horse to help me, maybe i wouldn't have hurt people as much as i did. Not saying it's your job or anyone's fault but my own, but im saying y'all got some nerve for some of the shit said about me itt. Regardless, i love you all anyway and if you think a little hateful word here or there is gonna drive me off you clearly haven't met a lost pony. *extends hoof. Hi, nice to meet you. Maybe, we can start over?
4. I absolutely adore a good roleplay, and being secured silently into the stocks in the town center while you all have your way with me was so exciting and midieval!! Center of attention without having to say a word. Im not sure how it was punishment, exactly, but a delightful time together nonetheless. I hope we can do it again, under better circumstances hopefully.
See you all on /pony. I feel this experience has bonded us together in new ways and i look forward to posting together again. We are here forever. Let's make the best of it!
Great non-apology, you sure didn't learn your lesson at all. Good job>We are here forever.
Given this post, that's unlikely in your case.
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Parts 1 and 2, and the first two sentences of part 3, constitute an apology. And I think it's a good apology. The rest of his post... well, it isn't part of the apology.
Personally, I am still of The stance he shouldn't have apologized, and I think his post is a great example of part of the reason why.
You really need to be fairly careful with apologies. Do them wrong, and people will take them in a rather hostile light. Even if you do them right, you still run the problem of excusing behavior done by another, assuming you weren't the only one in the wrong.
I just don't think it's healthy, all around.
this is an Admins thread?!
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You should get yourself one.
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BTW, I'm still waiting for a mod to respond to my question about what "engage" means in >>>/pony/923566 :
>After this two week period, if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user, i.e., making thinly veiled references to the other, an IMMEDIATE permaban shall follow for both users, unless it can be shown one user acted with malice to purposefully pull the both of them down (self-destructive revenge).
Suppose Lost Pony makes a thread, and Manley reads the OP and gets really interested in the topic and responds (either forgetting or without noticing who made the thread) with a good, high-quality post. Neither user did anything malicious. Does this count as engagement? If so, then both posters will be permabanned, but it seems absurd to ban them in that scenario, so I conclude that it doesn't count as "engage[ment]". But then the question is, what does count as "engage[ment]"?
>>3808>This is what happens to me, and if any of you had gotten off your judgy high-horse to help me, maybe i wouldn't have hurt people as much as i did>help me
Legit question, not a troll.
How in the blue hell am I supposed to do that? I am sorry for your volatile emotional state, but it is the definition of something beyond my control and I feel very strange getting blamed and then not blamed for it. My manifestation in your world is limited to a couple of lines of glowy text on a computer screen that you probably won't heed.
Unless you were one of the few itt getting their free pokes in while i was silenced, that was not intended for you. Im sorry if it hit you by mistake. (Edit: also you never know what a small reality-based couple of lines of glowy text might accomplish)>>3816
Chain, that has been asked and answered under the "sink both ships" doctrine of malice exception. If i am permabanned for my direct statements to Manley in my apology or by mentioning him by reference now, then i alone will be permabanned and he will be free to post.
Therefore, while a lost pony remains un-permabanned, "engage" is established to mean "in squabbling".>>3815>lewd
Well it says
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>>3818>Chain, that has been asked and answered
I never got a direct answer (from the mods) to the question posed in >>3816
. And Manley wants a precise answer too, so that he knows exactly what he needs to avoid doing on /pony/.
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As one of only two people subject to said restriction, a lost pony is specifically NOT burdening mod staff to clarify what was stated clearly in the original ban notice:
"rule breaking incivility"
Seems crystal clear to me. I know you mean well, Chain, but please do not provoke the staff to tighten my collar further when it is around my
neck and not your own.
The way the declaration was phrased was " if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user". I NEED some clarification on what "engagement" means in this context. Because I am hearing mixed things from different sources. To me "engaging" would include any sort of interaction at all. Including speaking directly to them or even referencing them in any way. I am formally requesting a direct, detailed explanation on what "engaging" means
before I make my decision on returning to this website. I dealt with this kind of vaguely defined nonsense quite enough under your so-called "political" ban that refused to explain what was and wasn't "political". I would also like to state that I am in agreement with the idea that perma-banning both of us if ONE person violates those rules is also unfair and would like to request clarification on that as well.
If you want my honest opinion, these seem like half-hearted measures that don't really address the root of the problem. Telling two users not to "engage" each other or they will be banned doesn't really fix the problem. It's basically just making those users feel unwanted on the website so the staff doesn't have to actually DO anything. No attempt was made to contact either of us directly over this issue, or the mediate an understanding between the two users before this drastic and unfair ruling was placed with no prior discussion. On a more personal level, this ruling is also completely lacking. It only includes one person and not other people who frequently target me with argumentation like Noonim. The way this ruling is worded, I could argue with Noonim 100 more times and I should not get in trouble because he was not included in the original message. Just one other user was. But we all know that's not what the staff wants. I feel like I'd still be punished for things not clearly defined in the scope of this "emergency ban" and that also feels unfair to me.
In all honesty, I do NOT feel welcome on this site anymore and I'm not sure if I want to return. This situation puts me on thin ice for things that are not clearly defined. Not only that, putting me in this situation is going to attract who don't like me and want me gone. They know they only have to push me a little bit to get rid of me forever. They will have their sights on me, it's like blood in the water. I also do not trust the mod-staff here to be completely unbiased in this issue. There are people on the mod-staff with personal biases against me; at least one has accused me of terrible things and insulting my mental health. Even the user base here seems divided on whether or not they even want me here in the first place. A not small portion of the site would rather see me leave. So like I said, I don't feel welcome here, and it's probably because I'm NOT welcome here. I have not decided if I will return, but I need this information I've requested before I can make that choice.
1) I require a direct, detailed explanation on what "engaging" means in the context of the two parties involved in this emergency ban.
2) I require clarification on whether or not one party violating the established terms of this "engagement" will result in both parties being banned, even if one party does not engage or retaliate in any way.
3) I need to discuss the possibility of other users who like to target me with argumentation being included as well, depending on the terms of 1 and 2.
4) I need an official confirmation that members of the modstaff are going to operate without personal biases on these matters to the best of their ability.
I'm gonna post this here for a bit, but I think I should make the items in this thread their own post so they can be more clearly seen by the modstaff.
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a lost pony second's Manley's concerns.
I've made sure Manley is aware that this is a very busy week for Moons at work, and we both hope Moons is able to schedule a time to meet with Manley or with both of us in the following week to work out everything Manley needs to feel comfortable posting with us in the future.
a lost pony is ready to help or btfo as desired. Moons please help us, thank you.