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So, I'm not as familiar with the trans world as I would like to be. I'm not trans by any means, but I do like understanding people and their perspectives.

This thread is to talk about transgenderism, if/why you transitioned etc.

I'd really like to understand it. So I have some questions for the transgender folk here in Ponyville (feel free to post anonymously). Forgive me if they're poorly worded:

1 - How did you come to know that you're transgender?
2 - What are some challenges you faced before and after transition? (if you have)
3 - What do you look to get out of transitioning?
4 - How do you feel now that you have transitioned? (again, if you have)
5 - If you have transitioned, what sort of transition have you gotten? (just pronouns? Hormone therapy? Surgery? etc.)

I may ask some follow up questions as well. Let me know if you don't want to answer any more.

Please be respectful in this thread. Thanks! :)
32 posts and 28 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


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That's what I was thinking.


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It's gotten better now that I'm transitioning. My family has gotten much more accepting and with my now-sister coming out in August, I think they all realize that this is not a phase. It helps that I'm 28.

I think that is incredibly noble.


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>1 - How did you come to know that you're transgender?

It was a long process that literally took me about 25 years. I could write a life story of sorts, of years of experiences about this, but the best way to summarize it would be to say that it's really a story of years struggling to understand what is essentially a complex set of gut intuitions, involuntary drives and desires, and the cognitive dissonance that comes with them.

> What are some challenges you faced before and after transition? (if you have)

I have not transitioned, and I am not really in a position to do so any time soon.

For me the greatest challenge was just trying to make sense of it all. Like I mentioned in my answer to the last question, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance involved. It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, why I should feel one way and yet reality was another way. I wasn't one of those kind of kids who was really good at articulating what my gut feelings were telling me or even trusting them. I didn't know why I sometimes wanted what something inside really wanted. I knew I was a boy yet felt, vaguely, like I was supposed to be a girl, and that was really confusing.

The second greatest challenge, once I started to understand it and suspect what it was, was the fear of losing everything should I try to do anything about it. And that's kind of when I started dismissing it, or rationalizing it away, even going so far as to assume everyone felt exactly the same way I did.  

The third greatest challenge was finally coming out about it once I stopped rationalizing it away. That was pretty terrifying.

The next challenge I have to face is figuring out just how the hell I am going to do it. That's kind of where I have been stuck for a few years now.

>3 - What do you look to get out of transitioning?

Greater peace of mind, greater stability, and perhaps the ability to feel a little more comfortable in my own skin.

Though frankly, I don't think I could get out of it what I really wish I could get out of it. Not all things are possible yet.

I might answer follow up questions. Sorry I am being a bit vague here. Certain details about this are not really things I feel completely comfortable with talking about in public settings.

Also I might go to bed in about half an hour or so, so I might not answer anything else until tomorrow.


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Well, thanks for sharing, even if it is scary. I think that coming to terms with what it is and admitting how you're feeling about it makes it at least a bit more comfortable to live with to some degree, whether or not you do anything about it.

I wish you the best in the future. *hugs*

And I'm heading to bed as well. :P


Nighty night, everyone!


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>Do you mean like, with family? Or more mentally/emotionally?
I mean I'm not open about it so all my struggles are internal. I don't have anyone I can talk about it one on one with in real life and since nobody knows I don't have to deal with bigotry directed at me personally, I just have to deal with it in general as well as with emotional and mental stuff. Every time someone refers to me as a male, by my birth name, etc it hurts a little inside. When my parents talk about trans people like they are perverts or criminals or sinning against god, it hurts and it tells me that I can never safely come out to them and expect to be accepted.

>Hmm… I guess I'll ask you as well: "What difference does it make for you to say "I'm a girl" as opposed to saying "I'm a boy that really likes girly things"? Is there something besides feeling girly and liking girly things that motivated you? Or is it simply that you feel your personality matches that of a girl more and so that must be what you are?"
I mean when people assumed I was a girl online before I came out as trans, when at times someone thought I was a girl from behind because of my long hair (when it was long) and general body shape, when people called me by a girls name online etc. I've ALWAYS been into things that are more coded towards girls, but I always just thought it was the general "sometimes guys like girl stuff, sometimes girls like guy stuff" thing. Because I've always been super accepting and understanding of that sort of thing. But now that I've come to understand I'm trans I realize it was more than that.

There are still parts of me that question if being trans is truly the end all be all for me. Parts of me that are still comfortable as a male that contradict the parts of me that aren't. What it comes down to is how real or acceptable the idea of being genderfluid, demi, etc is. For me, I don't really know. All I know is that the biggest part of me is the part that knows it is female, and that gives me reason to believe that the parts that believe them to be male simply come from being a male for 19 years and my body and mind is used to it.

That's why I'm not transitioning, really. I am a girl, I have body dysphoria, though it is very mild compared to some cases, but I have had a male body for 19 and a half years and I am used to that. And I can deal with it for now. There may come a time when I cant, but it is not here yet nor do I believe it will be for quite a while.


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My first instinct was to get annoyed and i felt a bit like you were intruding, but I recognized this and was able to reason with myself.

My first instinct is to always turn down the discussion of my personal problems and feelings and whatnot and to meet the inquisitor with disgust and disdain, as if to say "how dare you think so much of yourself that I would confide my weakness to you?" It took me a long time to realize that this was destructive and bad for me, and now I try to share more. It is still my first instinct, but I am able to catch it and deter it until I can use reason instead.

So you're good.


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Well I certainly hope I can get into a situation where I can begin to see a realistic plan become possible. Right now I am in kind of a catch-22 situation.

I will be in this thread again tomorrow. Goodnight.


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Isn't that the point?


On the internet? What a story.


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Well, I had a good sleep.

Anyone want to keep this discussion going?

>I hope it doesn't come off as rude. But, what difference does it make for you to say "I'm a girl" as opposed to saying "I'm a boy that really likes girly things"? Is there something besides feeling girly and liking girly things that motivated you? Or is it simply that you feel your personality matches that of a girl more and so that must be what you are?

Wanted to comment on this last night but I was too sleepy.

In my experience, and from the stories of other Trans people being transgender actually doesn't have much to do with being masculine or feminine ahead of time. At least, the cause and effect relationship doesn't really quite work that way. One can be a boy and like girly things and one can be a girl and like boyish things and not necessarily identify as trans or as the other gender. What matters is not if one likes things, or does things, or has a personality more stereotypical of the other gender, but rather why. A gender dysphoric person feels like they are supposed to be of the other gender, or at least not of the gender they were born into, that feeling comes first, and it kind of effects their relationship to masculine or feminine things and activities. Many partake in such things as a means of exploring or making sense of their feelings, and for some it's the means by which they discover what their feelings are saying. So I guess to restate in in short, a trans woman is not a trans woman because she likes feminine things, rather she likes feminine things because she is a trans woman.


I meant the other way around


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So I'm gonna do this now before the thread goes too far and gets autosaged. Due to extenuating circumstances at least some are privy too, Essie isn't around to be able to see this thread, and might not be for some time. I don't have the specifics myself, she may be able to see it right now but she might not and that's the thing that I'm worried about. Essie being trans and having a lot of bundled anxiety about it both internal and external in nature, this thread and the things that have been posted might be some small comfort to her. So on the chance she's on an internet blackout right now, and might be until after this particular thread gets lost to the void that lies beyond page 10, I'd like to save this thread in /arch/ before it comes to that.

Considering the very personal nature of this sort of thread, however, I felt it only polite to ask long in advance of my doing it. This isn't a request from the mod staff as a whole, this is a solitary request from me. Just me. Cards on the table.


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I agree with the caution, but I like that idea. And for others too, being so open may be a comfort worth remembering on days when it feels impossible.

This comment is pretty much only directed at you and is otherwise just taking up space, so please delete it whenever. I don't want to leave clutter.


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>it hurts and it tells me that I can never safely come out to them and expect to be accepted
Aw, dang. Sorry about that. They probably just don't understand what it's like to have those feelings. A lot of people think it's an intentional choice, which can really warp the way they look at it.

I hope you can one day find a comfortable way to express yourself.

>And I can deal with it for now.
That's good. I hope things work well for you then.

>So you're good.
Thanks. I really don't mean to be intrusive. I just want to understand so I know how to talk about it and interact with others, especially being friends with so many transgender people and having transgender family members as I do.

Huh. So it really is a sort of internal mental/emotional sense. That's interesting. Good to know!

Another strange follow up question, it'll be hard to word so…: When someone feels transgender, is that feeling more about who they see themselves to be, or who others see them to be? Or both? Or is it different for each person? How is it for you, specifically?

Same thing I asked Andrea: When someone feels transgender, is that feeling more about who they see themselves to be, or who others see them to be? Or both? Or is it different for each person? How is it for you, specifically?


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Well, I got confirmation from Essie that she'll be able to see the thread anyway so… I can retract my request.

Good timing, really.


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Well obviously they don't. Most hatred comes from ignorance. But not everyone is open to becoming educated on the subject.

One would think that once someone knows a person, such as their own child, who is trans (or gay or whatever else that's not the norm) they would make an effort to understand and help them. But the literal hundred of stories of people being mistreated, hurt, or intentionally worked against by people they know and love show that is obviously not the case in many situations.

I believe I am in one of those situations. I have no way of knowing for sure how they would act or what they would do, but given what I DO know and what I HAVE heard I am not willing to hedge my bets on things going well. I'm not one for confrontation.


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I think it should be arched eventually, like when it does automate. Depending on how it goes, anyways.


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Agreed. Until then however, I will limit my involvement from this post on.


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Hi Essie! We miss you and hope you're doing better!

>a trans woman is not a trans woman because she likes feminine things, rather she likes feminine things because she is a trans woman.
Well said.


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Go through and screencap it for her.  Then you can just send it to her.



I think it depends on the person. For me personally being recognized as female isn't really an end goal in itself but rather a means to an end, that end being the mitigation of cognitive dissonance. A lot of gender dysphoria is really a kind of cognitive dissonance, a conflict between our gut feelings of what sex we should be and the recognition of what sex we are in physical reality. For most of us, the way we deal with that is to learn how to ignore that part of physical reality, not deny it, just ignore it. So when someone uses male pronouns on me, it kinda makes me aware of physical reality and just kind of exacerbates the cognitive dissonance. It's like someone saying "you are now breathing voluntarily", someone calling me "he" "him" or sir is kind of like them saying "hey, you have a penis, remember? You're actually a boy". Which just reignites that internal conflict.

But like I said I think it varies from person to person, mostly based on how intensely they experience that dissonance. For me, I think the terror of being androgynous in a world where there are people who would lash out violently against such ambiguities outwheighed any anxiety I would feel from dysphoria. I have a naturally androgynous appearance, and while I never quite felt right when people would use male pronouns, I was more scared when they used female ones without any effort on my part, so I used to actually overcompensate for a long time and wore a big beard on my chin


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So, I hear a lot of talk that moving to a kind of left-wing bubble city is a great thing for self-esteem and all, that being in a really socially tolerant area is like a caterpillar turning into a butterfly.

And I wonder to what point it's really applicable to everyone. But it could apply to me. But is it really such a big deal? How much does being in a strongly 'blue' area really matter in you guys' own personal lives?

Locally, it's pretty depressing because while the multiplex is generally really tolerant, some of the politicians coming into power close-by are extremely awful. One particular douche-bag made an issue about how much he'd like to physically beat up LGBT people. And he, of course, won.


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>But is it really such a big deal? How much does being in a strongly 'blue' area really matter in you guys' own personal lives?

I barely leave the house, and when I do it's pretty much just to the grocery store.  It's difficult for me to imagine any sort of public assaults taking place in a restaurant or something.

Now, if you are in a place where people are publically assaulted then of course it would be fantastic to get out of there.  Don't live somewhere where people assault you.


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Yeah, the thing is all of these are true:
1)I live in a multiplex where many local senior officials in law enforcement are on the record of saying horrific things, beyond just political rhetoric to essentially 'Boy, I sure want to beat up LGBT people'.
2)I'm a shy and introverted person with a strong tendency to be scared and timid to the point that I know– I really 'know'– that it's depressive paranoia.
3)My specifically local area where I live is considerably safe, crime-wise.
4)The places that I drive to where other family lives, where I go to buy things, etc have a lot of problems, particularly in terms of street crime.
5)Mass shootings are very rare; you might as well be afraid of being struck by lightening.
6)This multiplex is one of those that was indeed recently struck– with our shooting making international news.

So, well, I don't know. I have some loyalty to DFW, but not that much. Ugh.


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Well hey, I'd bet you $10 you'll be happier living somewhere without mass shootings in your apartment.


I mean, that stuff didn't literally happen beside my apartment complex, but it DID occur in a public plaza that just a bit of months ago I was there to participate in city artistic stuff. And I was thinking of going back soon. So, to see on the news…

It felt as if the news was saying:
-> "Hey, fox, remember where you thought about taking friends to hang out outside, see the orchestra, et cetera? Where you wanted to go back too soon? A crazy fucking sniper is brutally murdering people there! Eat it, sucker!"


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this is a great thread! i read many of the longer posts and tried to take in most of it but i really need to get some sleep in and get back on track with things. i was at an inpatient clinic for a few days after the hospital (i am physically okay and it was all voluntary) and while it did a lot to help me i got sick, i barely slept the whole time there, and i am just run down in general.

>1 - How did you come to know that you're transgender?

this is a hard one for me, because there is still an uncertainty there for several reasons. one is because being trans where I live is simply unheard of, so it takes an extreme amount of courage to step up and take it upon yourself to basically be who you are in a situation like this. a part of me continues to tell me i'm misguided or just looking for answers that aren't there. my identifation of being trans started with crossdressing, which was a hobby at first and I really felt nothing of it. it was distinct from who i felt like as a person. i can't give a timeline of how anything changed but i guess from the start there were psychological aspects of feeling more comfortable with woman-ness in comparison to man-ness. A friend mentioned I looked more "natural" as a woman and that was probably the catalyst for all the further thoughts I had to take it seriously. it's not a physical thing, though, and that is part of reservations i have going forward. i think everyone worries about how we look and how it was compare favourably or negatively to the self-image we have in our heads. it's difficult. on top of that, with the problems i've had with mental health, it's easy to put yourself down and reduce it all to being "mental illness", somethineg someone else mentioned being a popular putdown both online and in real life. i feel my feelings on being trans changed as people online began to see me more as a woman online and i'd say i was simply genderfluid or something similar. there is a definite comfort of femininity, for me. i don't like to use the word "shame" to describe my feelings towards my male-ness because not only is it inaccurate but it also gives credence to alt-right nerds who reduce the trans community to people with an axe to grind against their own gender because of feminism (mtf) or "daddy issues" (ftm) or other convulted reductions. there's simply not the same level of comfort - i feel more guarded and less inclined to share "myself" as a man, and it's not really because of any embracing of gender roles but rather because in a way, I feel so far removed from male-ness as an experience. I don't even think I am particularly feminine - as far as I'm concerned, I would be fine as a bit of a tomboy. As a guy, having long hair and wearing different clothes has done some to help, but there's still a desire to present differently, to feel more attached to the inside feelings. long hair isn't the same as hair that makes you feel happy and confident, or having more androgynous clothing may not necessarily help either. there is an appeal to some degree of androgyny, though.

i've not yet transitioned or really even come out of the closet very much, but at this time it's simply something i don't feel i can roll with. i don't have the strength or the courage right now, or the financial stability, and i think that's okay. i have had the feelings, now i am developing an understanding. once i understand it, i can begin to formulate actions. it's a scary prospect but no matter what, i like to envision a confident me who is fearless about who they are and is strong enough to ignore those who want to tear them down or abuse them for realizing themselves

2 - What are some challenges you faced before and after transition? (if you have)
3 - What do you look to get out of transitioning?


thanks chrome, i appreciate you keeping me in mind!


thanks! i missed you guys too and i am doing better mentally, just not doing the best physically for a couple of reasons, but that should improve with time


I wonder, when people on here lable themselves as transgender, does it result in secret trans-ing?
Or do we have folks with a strong tendency to be out in public dressing/acting as the opposite gender?


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It depends.

I know that Essie and I are "closet trans" because of where we live and whatnot, but Hawkeye and Sherlock are both transitioning and living as their true gender.



What exactly is "secret trans-ing" ?


you keep it to yourself or online.
but people around you probably won't know



You mean keeping it in the closet?

Well, personally I label myself as being transgender here as a way of being partlly out of the closet.

Labeling oneself here as transgender doesn't usually result in people going into the closet, but is often a result of having already been there to begin with. Coming to this community didn't make me realize I was trans, I sort of knew that to begin with for … well for two and a half decades beforehand really. But the spirit of this community (back when it started at least) was enough to make me less afraid to be open about it somewhere and to someone.



Also, the reality is that no one is ever completely out of the closet about it. Many might be out of the closet about it to people whom they know personally offline and to people online, but few are totally out to everyone in the world. In fact, unless you just don't pass at all after you transition, the stage of transitioning is really the only period in which a person is openly transgender. Once one transitions and passes, one doesn't necessarily remain openly transgender.


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i think most people are in the closet at some point - it's not really like homosexuality or bisexuality in that you can be "open" about it yet more or less incospicious in the vacuum of, say, walking down the street. to be fair i am fairly blessed in terms of my physique minus maybe my shoulders which might clue people on, but my voice especially would be a barrier - i can't talk like a woman, and i wouldn't be comfortable speaking in my normal tone of voice as a woman as a general rule in public. it something that takes other changes in my life and time, unfortunately, before i can really be fully open about it.


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I'm kinda partially closeted.


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>1 - How did you come to know that you're transgender?

Was around… 8 years old, I think?  Being a guy just didn't feel… right.  When someone looks in the mirror they can usually say 'Hey, this is me.'.  I couldn't do that.  I mean sure, I KNEW it was me, but it didn't feel like it was me.  I never played with action figures or really anything that was stereo-typically guy-ish.  On the other hand, I never played with anything girl-ish.  Was always more… gender neutral stuff like Legos or K'nex.  Although I did like RC cars.

Anyways, at the time I didn't know that there was such a thing as being 'transgender' so I tried putting off my feelings as just a phase or my poor self esteem.  By about 16 I think I had suppressed it almost completely.  Took about till… last year iirc that I started to seriously question whether or not I was trans.  I asked myself whether I was happy being a guy or not.  Of course that ended up being that I was not happy.  Buuuuut I could still pin that on self esteem and such, so I asked myself a different question.  If you saw yourself as a girl, would you feel more comfortable in your own skin? (not necessarily happy, but comfortable)  I answered 'yes'.  The more I thought about, the more I thought about how I felt in my childhood relating to it, the more I realized that I was trans and that I couldn't suppress those feelings any longer.  The less I suppressed those feelings, the more right it just felt.

However, one thing did get in the way (least internally, not something I really talked about).  I wasn't into girly, pink, fru fru like stuff like most MTF trans individuals I've known.  So I thought I might then not be really trans.  Buuuuuuuut, as many different types of guys and girls out there, there must be many different types of transwomen out there too.  So I slowly accepted I was a tomboy.  Funny, I should've just looked at the pony I post as most. lol

>2 - What are some challenges you faced before and after transition? (if you have)

I'm pre evvvvvvverything.  No money or right healthcare to do anything about it at all.  Because of this, I'm a closeted trans IRL as I don't wanna change pronouns or what have you until I can actually do something about it.  Not to mention how dangerous in general it is to be trans in society.  I haven't even told my therapist yet 6_9

>3 - What do you look to get out of transitioning?

Comfort in my own skin.  Being able to look in the mirror and think 'this is me'.  Gaining self confidence/self esteem.  Being able to wear clothes that feel more… right.

>5 - If you have transitioned, what sort of transition have you gotten? (just pronouns? Hormone therapy? Surgery? etc.)

Obviously haven't, buuuuuuuut, I'd mainly just want HRT.  No surgery for me down there.  However I won't rule out chest surgery.  Pronouns I really don't mind, but I won't know how I really feel about that till I do transition.


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Just got back from the post office. Strangers nowadays almost always avoid gendered language to refer to me since it's clear that I'm transitioning, but the guy helping me at one point looked up at me and then started finishing every sentence after that with "sir".

I think that it's a sign of progress that this made me angry rather than depressed. Still, what the hell? It was humiliating to have him saying that over and over in front of a bunch of other people while I was standing there with a purse and makeup on.


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I hate those sorts of people.

He probably posts on 4Chan and complains about Tumblr SJWs on a daily basis.

I don't know how people like that exist. It literally costs 0 dollars to call someone what they want to be called. It literally takes 0 effort to be nice to people.


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Maybe he's just jealous for not having a purse like yours.


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And honestly, I don't even ask or expect strangers to call me "miss" or "ma'am". I know what I look like, and I know that those words don't exactly spring to mind for most people right now.

But it's also clear that I'm trans. I have boobs, for Chrissake. Is it too much to ask that people not intentionally misgender me in public?

It continues to boggle my mind how nasty some people can be about a topic that they have clearly put literally zero effort into learning about.


Thanks Dizz, this made me smile. Dude wishes he could rock all of this fringe.


The only right reaction is to throw your glove down and challenge him to a duel.


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People are only becoming more accepting of trans-gendered individuals, so even though there will be some people like that, I think things will get better, and people will compliment you on your purse instead of lashing out in insecurity of their own inadequate purses. He probably just had a normal wallet, the poor guy.


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You have always been beautiful Hawkeye and now, you shall only become moreso! It is something to be very proud of.

It is not quite the same… but you know, you are a minority now. And that comes with its own heritage but also it's own baggage. Closed minded people shall always find ways to subtly poke at that heritage, but they act out in such ways because they have no other power over you but to poke.

I hope you shall feel confident in that beauty - the beauty that makes you who you are at your very core! And let those who would poke and insult do so in vain.


I feel I should also say that one thing the internet taught me was to never assume an action was done in malice when ignorance suffices for an explanation.

I know, for me at least, I knew very little about Trans stuff before discovering the internet and ponies myself. And there is still much I do not know, but am learning.

I feel like pre2011 me might have been confused and might have been less sensitive not out of dislike, but because I would not know how to be sensitive yet or even ehat that means out of not yet understanding :(


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This is probably why that post office had bullet-proof partitions between the costumer side and the employee side.


Yeah, we've definitely come a long way from even just five years ago. It'll be interesting to see where we are in ten more.


Thank you, Moony! These are wise words. I give people the benefit of the doubt as a rule because life is a lot better that way, which is why I almost always just shrug it off if a stranger calls me "sir". This time was pretty obviously intentional, though.

And I've experienced bigotry before due to my sexual orientation, but definitely never had to deal with my minority status being something so polarizing and so visually obvious. You're right that there will be people who want to poke at that baggage because they have a bone to pick - there always will be. And most of the time it won't bother me, but sometimes it will, and that's fine too. I've found that I'm most confident in my identity when I give myself room to be not confident from time to time.

I used to tell myself, "Their reactions shouldn't bother you." But then a day came when they did bother me, and I ended up feeling even worse because I was trying to deal with my feelings by invalidating them rather than working through them. So I changed the mantra to, "Their reactions don't need to bother you, but it's okay sometimes if they do." I've found that to be a lot more effective, and actually to be a great general life lesson.

Anyway, those are my musings for the moment. Already feeling better.


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Oh shit it does?

Ours doesn't. But our post office people aren't jerks so I guess they don't need it.

Also is it SWORD PROOF????


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Yeah, my neighborhood was pretty bad not all that long ago. It was kind of weird seeing that in the post office, since I'd also never been in one with bullet proof glass. It's like…what the hell happened here?


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>However, one thing did get in the way (least internally, not something I really talked about).  I wasn't into girly, pink, fru fru like stuff like most MTF trans individuals I've known.  So I thought I might then not be really trans.  Buuuuuuuut, as many different types of guys and girls out there, there must be many different types of transwomen out there too.  So I slowly accepted I was a tomboy.  Funny, I should've just looked at the pony I post as most. lol

This is probably a lot more common than you might at first think. I certainly thought I couldn't have been trans for the longest time because of the fact that I never really had all that much interest in explicitly effeminate things. Maybe a curiosity at best, but hardly anything I would consider affinity.


>tfw you aren't even transitioning and people get offended like this simply because you look androgynous


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Well, based on sentiments that were aired after my request, I will now be moving this thread to /arch/.


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This thread is arched, but I'll respond anyway. I never saw it originally, and There's some stuff I've wanted to say to someone for a long time.

1-I think I always knew, I just learned to accept my body over the years, and the rest of the world recently became more accepting, so I've been able to take down the mental barriers I built up. The dam broke today, so I guess today answers your question, even though it really doesn't.

2-I haven't, and I won't be able to for some time, if ever. Money challenges, relationship challenges, job challenges, and my own perfectionism. I wouldn't be comfortable with anything other than a full change. 4 and 5 also do not apply.

3- If there ever is a solution? comfort. solidity. self assurance. validation in my desires. Wholeness.

I told someone else my story, so I guess this is more about being part of the thread, even though it's … locked.

This post does not exist

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