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 No.8041

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How much of an impact do you think COVID-19 (and especially Trump's response to it) had on the presidential election?  Would Trump have won but for his poor handling of the pandemic?

 No.8042

Trump's attempts to make voting by mail seem illegitimate hurt his own turn-out because the majority of mail-in ballots were Democratic.

 No.8043

As a European, I won't attempt to comment on what exactly determined the election.

However, I will say that Covid-19 handling is hazardous and not straight forward in how to deal and pacify the masses.

If you keep restrictions on the minimal, people will tally up the victims of the disease. Experts will point at you for taking no measures to hold it back.

On the flip side, when you place restrictions to prevent the spread, you're not only dealing with all the Karen's yelling about freedom and authoritarian stuff. Public services might be locked down for a long time and that will mean businesses will lose tons of money and go bankrupt. And people will blame you for causing that sort of fall out.

I think Trump might have appeased more people with the way he handled the pandemic than Biden will with his kind of bravado.

 No.8044

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>>8043
Trump knew about Wuhan Pneumonia back in early January.  If he would have used the Defense Production Act and government funding, he could have built new N95 factories and produced enough N95 masks by May or June so that everyone could have one.  It would have cost tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars, but it would have limited shutdowns after that point to only restaurants and bars.  Instead, Trump's personal antipathy towards masks led to many people refusing to wear them and worse outbreaks.

 No.8045

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>>8042
>Trump's attempts to make voting by mail seem illegitimate hurt his own turn-out because the majority of mail-in ballots were Democratic.
Are you sure it didn't just shift Republican voters to vote in person?

 No.8048

It was a very close election, so anything about Trump's presidency being different might have changed the outcome.  While the debates about how much can be done or what measures to take rage on, I think Trump's showing with Covid was no more than sufficient, regardless of your personal opinion of how it should be handled.  He had no major victories in dealing with the pandemic, and many many questionable voice clips.  If he had done anything of note it might have given people hope for dealing with it going forward, which may have convinced more voters to side with him.

 No.8050

A portion of voters sided with Biden citing the handling of COVID as the primary reason.  Some portion of these might have gone back to siding with Trump had he handled it "better".  However, with the media's willingness to smear literally everything the president does, and having no internal control for comparison, it is likely that even if he had done [anything you think he should have done here], the media would have still framed it in such a way as to cause these people to think Trump handled it poorly and still vote against him.  So over all, yes it had an impact, but probably a minuscule one, which may have still been enough to swing the election given the close results.

 No.8053

Trump bungled his handling of Covid in a number of ways. Some of which are detailed in this video.

 No.8054

>>8044
to be fair, that's a move most places all around the world have neglected and still do.
i doubt even Biden would have opened heavy duty masks and frced those on the population at the first rumour of someone getting sick accross the world.

And it would certainly not have been accepted by the general public to wear those masks everywhere.

I do feel that Trump's scoffing at the disease even while it was ravaging America was a poor decision that did a lot of harm.

 No.8055

>>8042
>>8043
>>8044
I'm going to pretty much just second all of this. Had some thoughts myself, but... well, eh... you peeps are right.

 No.8060

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>>8054
>to be fair, that's a move most places all around the world have neglected and still do.
True, but the places where mask-wearing was already common (e.g., South Korea, Taiwan) did much better than most of the world.

>i doubt even Biden would have opened heavy duty mask[ factories]
Likely true.  I'm not convinced that Biden or Hillary would have done much better than Trump, other than setting a better example for mask-wearing.  But Trump did have an opportunity, and he blew it.  And the Crimson Contagion exercise [1] revealed back in August 2019 that the US lacked the PPE production capacity for dealing with a deadly pandemic flu.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Contagion

>>8054
> f[o]rced those on the population
To be clear, the president doesn't have the authority to force people to wear masks.  And neither does Congress, any more than it can force people to buy broccoli (although it might be able to tax going out in public with a naked face).  The president just has a bully pulpit to try to convince people to voluntarily wear a mask.  It would be up to the several states to compel people to wear masks where appropriate.

 No.8061

>>8060
On the side, do Taiwan / South Korea distribute and ask the population to wear specialised N95 masks?

Because I can imagine the general population wearing surgical and homemade masks, which are likely easier to make and distribute.

But actual professional masks would still sound harder to distribute for everyone.

 No.8062

>>8061
>On the side, do Taiwan / South Korea distribute and ask the population to wear specialised N95 masks?
I think it was mainly a mix in quality between surgical masks, air-pollution-filtering masks, and KN95 masks.

 No.8066

I don't think it had a significant effect, seeing as a few thousand votes difference in key precincts would have changed the outcome. Besides that, if people voted for results these wouldn't be the two candidates running.

Rather it seems more like the election modified people's beliefs about the pandemic.

 No.8067

>>8066
While that's true, it's only because of our idiotic electoral college.

If you look at the popular vote, i.e. who actually got the most votes, Biden got over 5 million votes, one of the biggest differences for any Presidential race. Even if our system gives the person who got less votes a path to winning for some stupid reason, it's still clear Trump was the least popular of the two candidates.

 No.8068

>>8067
>our idiotic electoral college.
I disagree that the electoral college is idiotic.  Our country is a federal republic.  The several states aren't mere political subdivisions of the United States; rather, they are separate sovereigns.  The states serve as laboratories of democracy in many areas, and I think there is much value in letting different states try different voting methods.  (Personally, I'd be particularly interested in seeing a state try a Condorcet method for its general election.)

 No.8069

>>8068
It is idiotic that the person who did not get the most votes can still win and that some votes are literally worth more than others. If you actually look at what regions get the most voting power because of the electoral college, you'll see that on average, the votes of white people are worth more than the votes of people of color.

But even ignoring all that, the Electoral college fails in what it's actually supposed to do. Every state or place has a mixture of right and left people. All the electoral college does is force each state into a binary that means portions of their population get ignored. . Republicans in California get ignored, just as Democrats of Oklahoma get ignored. The electoral college force politicians to view each state as a ridiculous parody of itself.

 No.8071

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>>8069
>It is idiotic that the person who did not get the most votes can still win and that some votes are literally worth more than others.
>...
>the Electoral college fails in what it's actually supposed to do
It is true that the electors no longer exercise independent discretion, as originally envisioned.  But the unequal representation was definitely a designed-in feature, a compromise to protect the interests of the smaller states.

 No.8072

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>>8071
And why should some votes be worth more than others? And keep in mind, this means white votes are worth more than votes of non-whites.

 No.8073

>>8072
>And why should some votes be worth more than others?
As I said in >>8071: it's a compromise to protect the interests of the smaller states.

>this means white votes are worth more than votes of non-whites.
Not in all cases.  The vote of a black person in DC is 'worth' more than the vote of a white person in Texas.

 No.8074

>>8072
Why couldn't black/brown people move to Wyoming so their votes are worth more?

 No.8075

>>8071
>>8072
>>8074

There is already a thread on the electoral college up, it would probably be better to have this discussion there.

 No.8076

>>8074
Why the fuck should people have to move for their votes to matter? That's ridiculous.

>>8073
>it's a compromise to protect the interests of the smaller states.

Except it doesn't. No "state" has interests. People do. And the electoral college forces candidates to look at states as parodies of themselves and ignore large groups of people living there.

>>8075
Which one?

 No.8077

>>8076

The "should land be allowed to vote" thread.

 No.8078

>>8077

I'll go ahead and link it here:  https://ponyville.us/townhall/res/7597.html

 No.8079

>>8077
>>8078
Alright, well I've already stated what I think about it. It's idiotic, but my original point was Biden's electoral college win was smaller than his popular vote win, but the popular vote win is a better indicator of how popular or unpopular a candidate is, because it's their actual number of votes they got.

 No.8081

The core issue r.e. the electoral college and the popular vote seems to be governing mindset, really. Not so such the technical specifics. I think.

As long as it's considered normal for a person to run for President under the explicit doctrine of "As soon as I get in, I will use the power of the government to crush the living hell out of my enemies and make sure that the people who didn't vote for me suffer as much as humanly possible, for they're aren't 'real Americans' due to their class/ethnicity/politics/race/etc"... there will be devastating problems.

America is teetering on the edge of having an elective monarchy if not an elective dictatorship in terms of government power versus personal rights, after all.

 No.8083

>>8081
Except that rarely ever happens. Trump is really the only president in recent memory to act that way. Biden has gone on record that he will NOT act this way.

 No.8084

>>8083
Biden? Yes, he's unlike that completely. Not sure if it's right to see Biden as the norm and Trump as the exception, though. There's a lot of continuity from what Presidents Richard Nixon and George W. Bush did in terms of using state power to crush perceived enemies, say, compared to Trump.

 No.8085

>>8084
I'm noticing a pattern here. All those people you mentioned were Republicans.

 No.8088

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>>8041
I...live in a sorta blue place politically.  People complain at lot about Trump's responses to COVID.

>poor handling of the pandemic

But I do see more broadly some feel the use of state power in the interest of public health is bad.  Some feel state impotence in allowing COVID to spread or lack of preparation for treatment is bad.  So, how do you judge the state's handling of the pandemic in a general American way, except perhaps to say: if you like Trump, he did a great job; otherwise not.  Suppose it's really the edge cases that matter -- people (unicorns?) not strongly for or against Trump, and those cases are harder to comment on.


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