You're a Donald Trump supporter, so you're allowed to call me a "coward", "liar", "pedophile", and the like without any context let alone evidence because that's that. You don't have to be fair. You don't have to even not be a sociopath. Being a supporter of the now ex-President gives you an absolute excuse out of basic morality such that you cannot get called for it.
I understand. That's how it's been for the last four years. That's the truth.
A Trumpist can issue a death threat online or run a car off a road, and nothing will happen. It's okay. They're a Trumpist. They don't follow regular people's rules.
Obviously, a liberal Democrat, say, can't do that sort of thing. They get banned from internet forums. Kicked out of social groups. Etc.
I do hope, though, that things change in the near future.
>>7961>Bigotry and hatred against minorities in America is an actual social problem with decades upon decades of bloody history that deserves to be treated with utmost seriousness the same way that we react to people being diagnosed with cancer and victims of car accidents (or whatever else).
Okay, but that's not the same thing as your prior claim.
Overarching bigotry may well be an issue. Acting as though that all means it's common to see a black man with a CCW as a thug is another matter.
If I told you "people will eat literal dog shit" and you said "what? No they won't", it would be incredibly stupid of me to say "humans eat all kinds of food every day as necessary for survival, and often eat things that will hurt our body"
That may well be true, but it's not evidence for the claim. >That's not the same thing at all as paranoid delusions that Trump supporters have about the regular population that aren't with them on Trump.
Considering all the assaults there's been over MAGA hats, and the recent cold blooded murder in ambush of a Trump supporter, I wouldn't call it delusions.
Perhaps, but considering I've repeatedly told him it's not true and challenged him to prove it, and he's so far refused to do so, I'm doubtful.
Either he's sincerely mentally ill, to the point of having full on fantasies during this thread he thinks have happened when they have not, or he's a liar.
I consider expectations of dishonesty better than regarding someone as mentally incapable.
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>>7965>particular reason to be afraid if they choose to be gun owners and therefore [p]ut a target on their backs to bigots more so than before.
Is this specifically in regards to the police? If so, I guess I can't deny it. Sadly, lawfully carrying a gun probably does put black people in greater danger from the police. And I would definitely support police reforms to address this issue.
For fuck's sake, I know Goddamn well that most gun owners are not bigots and clearly most gun owners don't see a fellow individual with a firearm don't automatically think something bad is up.
I know that. I've never said that.
What I'm saying, and what's the objective truth outside of the right-wing bubble that you appear to be inside of, is that being a minority and then choosing to become a gun owner puts a target on your back for even worse harassment from bigots as well as gives the bigots an excuse for their hatred.
This exists in the context that bigots are currently armed to the teeth
and they consider U.S. 'gun culture' to be theirs.
For me, I would get upgraded from "some random k*ke-loving, n*gger-loving tr*nny f*ggot" to "oh, sweet Jesus, this b*tch has a gun". Obviously, most gun owners would think something like "oh, hey, a new one's here at the range this Monday". They'd smile. Wave. Be decent. They're fine. I'm talking about the 1/3 or so that's ruining it all for everybody else.
The police, yes. And unarmed bigots. And armed bigots. I'm really thinking about all of them.
I'd genuinely and sincerely like to live in a world in which owning a firearm was treated logically. People exercised basic gun safety. They hung out and went shooting in a way that was fun. They felt safer knowing that criminals would have a harder time taking advantage of them. Etc.
And that would, of course, be a world in which all of the colors of the rainbow and so on carry. Which would be fine. We'd be armed and polite.
That world isn't present day America. Just... yeah. Not sure what else to say.
>>7968>You don't have to be fair. You don't have to even not be a sociopath. Being a supporter of the now ex-President gives you an absolute excuse out of basic morality such that you cannot get called for it.
That's a sad way to view it, if that's really how you think.
It's not how things ought to be. >A Trumpist can issue a death threat online or run a car off a road, and nothing will happen. It's okay. They're a Trumpist. They don't follow regular people's rules.
And this hasn't occurred on the left, with the understanding that if they're a Trump supporter, it's okay, they're not really human?
People cheered when antifa murdered a man in a cold blooded ambush, man. >Obviously, a liberal Democrat, say, can't do that sort of thing. They get banned from internet forums. Kicked out of social groups. Etc.
Uh, definitely not? Do you even live in the real world? Have you not seen the corporate internet reality?
Do you honestly think Twitter and YouTube are run by far right ideologues?
>>7973>For fuck's sake, I know Goddamn well that most gun owners are not bigots and clearly most gun owners don't see a fellow individual with a firearm don't automatically think something bad is up. I know that. I've never said that.
Oh, okay then. In that case they ought to have no trouble getting in to gun culture.
Which... I though was the whole argument. But whatever. >being a minority and then choosing to become a gun owner puts a target on your back for even worse harassment from bigots as well as gives the bigots an excuse for their hatred.
I'm skeptical of that. I would want to see the data.
A gun helps you protect yourself, after all.
It seems like something that would help make attacks reserved for the verbal, and no longer physical.
Though, maybe that's what you mean. >oh, sweet Jesus, this b*tch has a gun".
Sounds better to me.
Rights rarely are respected when they are not backed up by a fear of the consequences. >Obviously, most gun owners would think something like "oh, hey, a new one's here at the range this Monday". They'd smile. Wave. Be decent. They're fine. I'm talking about the 1/3 or so that's ruining it all for everybody else.
Sounds like you'd have that community support you were talking about
You can deny the Holocaust on Facebook. At least, well, until very, very recently. But that rule will be barely enforced.
What happens if you issue a death threat to the President on Facebook? A snap back. Immediately. As, I should say, it should be (of course).
And, seriously, take a look at the bigger picture, man.
Is there a Jewish version of the Klan? Is there a transgender version of the American Nazi Party? Is there a disabled peoples' version of 4chan's worst trolling cesspools within the broader website (not that, of course, the whole website is one thing, since it clearly isn't)?
Sauce for the goose isn't sauce for the gander in America. Someone like, say, David Duke is a wealthy man. He sleeps happily at night. He looks in the mirror and sees an internationally known celebrity. Of course, yes, he's despised for being a terrible moron. Does that matter to him, though?
Compare that to some random, scared Jewish kid who doesn't understand why he can't go online with a profile picture of him wearing a yarmulke with a torrent of hatred. He's living a different life. And that's... yeah.
I think if that's the case, it's escalated beyond that.
He's expressly refused to give me the benefit of the doubt, and had accused me of lying when I said I do not disagree on the whole bigotry thing
>>7977>"In that case, they ought to have no trouble getting in to gun culture."No.
Please read and understand my posts before you bother to respond.
For the umpteenth time, minorities face first, the fact that bigots are currently armed to the teeth
, second, that bigots consider 'gun culture' to be theirs
, and third, that minorities who are armed are explicitly putting themselves out there for even worse treatment than other minorities.>"I'm skeptical of that."
Of course you are. You live in a magical fantasy world without any bigotry or hatred existing except those directed at Trump supporters. Yet you could always enter the real world.>"Sounds better to me."
It's really not. And it's pretty fucking unfair to say the least for you and your ilk to demand that we minorities, just for being born different, have to undergo this long, painful process of converting bigoted spaces into non-bigoted spaces. They should just be better
without the sacrifice.>"Sounds like you'd have that community support you were talking about."
For fuck's sake, what kind of a social life do you have? Honestly? Really?
Do you not understand how incredibly fucking unreasonable
it is for you to just wave your arms and proclaim that us minorities should simply just 'deal with it', ignoring the 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever completely? How are you like this? I'm genuinely baffled.
How would you feel if you walked into, say, a church only to find that half of the pews have been filled with literal seething demons with horns and tails as well as everything else? And if you tried to hold a regular service, accepting the blood and body of Christ, with them screaming at you, spitting at you, and very much just causing a ruckus the whole time? How would you feel if I just said 'deal with it'?
This is a smaller point, but:>People cheered when antifa murdered a man in a cold blooded ambush, man.
Needs to be:>"Some people cheered when a neo-fascist extremist got killed while in the process of attacking a group, man."
Now, my personal belief is that violence shouldn't be met with violence. So, I'd object to even a genuine, no bullshit Nazi wearing a uniform and marching out with a flag getting punched, let alone killed. Even in those extreme circumstances, I'd say that the other cheek should be turned. Still, though, I'd understand the context.
>>7978>You can deny the Holocaust on Facebook. At least, well, until very, very recently. But that rule will be barely enforced.
Do you honestly think Zuckerberg is a far right neonazi?>What happens if you issue a death threat to the President on Facebook? A snap back. Immediately. As, I should say, it should be (of course).
Holy shit dude, a death threat is not equivalent to holocaust denial.
Saying you don't think something happened, and saying you are literally going to kill someone are far from equal. >Is there a Jewish version of the Klan? Is there a transgender version of the American Nazi Party? Is there a disabled peoples' version of 4chan's worst trolling cesspools within the broader website (not that, of course, the whole website is one thing, since it clearly isn't)?
Do you think that if there isn't, the internet as a whole is far right?
Raven may be right. It may well have been silly on my part to think you were lying.
You might actually be that delusional. >Compare that to some random, scared Jewish kid who doesn't understand why he can't go online with a profile picture of him wearing a yarmulke with a torrent of hatred. He's living a different life. And that's... yeah.
Yeah, because you're comparing one extreme to the other end.
I guess there's no racial inequality, because Kanye West is loaded, while Jerome McLegless has been homeless since the Vietnam War.
He wasn't attacking anyone, man. The guy literally was hiding until he showed up, walked out, and shot him dead.
Its seriously fucked up that you're okay with that kind of thing
Thank heavens you're not in charge, or we may well have need of the 2nd.
Yes, as I noted in >>7972
, I agree with your sentiment, I agree that something needs to be done to address it.
Yeah, murdered by that evil white supremacists Hispanic cop..
My opinion, though, if law refuses to provide justice, it's just for others to seek it out.
I would call it civic duty.
Maybe cops wouldn't be so jumpy if they knew shooting somebody unjustly may result in the local community gunning him down when they get the chance.
But I don't know much of this case to say
I mean, really, I still can hardly wrap my head around me posting "I'm against all violence to the point that I wouldn't even defend myself against a uniformed Nazi waving a banner coming at me" and then your response is "fuck you for supporting violence against innocents".
Not to mention your insistence on more denialism, which is honestly kind of pathetic when it's about something to which the details can be easily looked up. But... whatever. To be honest, I'm feeling kind of bad that I even assumed some basic decency from you and gave you the benefit of the doubt at first. Hah.
And it's also so rich that you're talking about '2nd amendment solutions' or whatever when I'm the near pacifist who wants a bigotry-free small government under classical liberalism and you're the violence-loving secessionist who wants to tear the nation into bloody pieces because his guy lost at the polls.
Dude , you literally made up something that evidence literally disproves objectively as a matter of fact, because the guy was right wing.
Evidence proves he attacked nobody.
You ignore this because he's right wing.
That's seriously fucked up.
I guess this isn't likely to be very productive further, though, if you're that level of mentally damaged.
I sincerely hope you get the help you clearly need
You are aware that other people can read these posts, right?
And so for you to point an accusing finger at the near pacifist who won't even defend themselves at a charging Nazi and somehow you go "fuck you, you mentally ill loser" or whatever... like... can you even begin to listen to yourself?
>>7990>Not to mention your insistence on more denialism, which is honestly kind of pathetic when it's about something to which the details can be easily looked up.
Which is why its fucking disgusting the way that you will completely fabricate an entirely new scenario not backed up by evidence!
That you do not see anything wrong with that disgusts me. >And it's also so rich that you're talking about '2nd amendment solutions
That doesn't mean cold blooded fucking murder, man.
Not to mention that, well, I should probably expect that as a Trump supporter you think that people with mental illness are inferior or whatever, with you throwing mental illness around as a casual insult for those who dare to disagree with you.
It's still somewhat of a surprise.
You've spent this entire thread wagging your finger at me and others by claiming that we're actually bigots and haters.
You are aware that mental illness is often a condition that somebody is born with and how horrible it is for a random person to use that as an empty insult, right?
>>7993>And so for you to point an accusing finger at the near pacifist who won't even defend themselves at a charging Nazi and somehow you go "fuck you, you mentally ill loser" or whatever... like... can you even begin to listen to yourself?
Bro, you're literally claiming that something for which there is plenty of evidence to demonstrably prove didn't happen, did.
The only reason for it i see is that he's right wing.
You may well be a pacifist, but that doesn't mean what you claimed occurred is supported by reality.
If you're incapable of perceiving that reality, yeah, you have major problems.
Same goes for you. Insulting another poster's mental faculties is not a sensible debate tactic, and is against site rules
Consider these both warnings
Are you referring to what sage posted >>7877
? Did you report that post?
Given that your reaction to a far right extremist being killed in self-defense is... like... honestly, I don't even know how to begin to characterize your reaction.
I... well... I can't say that you've come right out and said that you want other people to die yet
, but we're at that line and you appear to be crossing it right this second.
It's more while you're here as an important item that lead to this.
Because it's always an irritation when no history or backlog is so much at considered let alone investigated when you guys finally show up.
Might as well point out a flagrant violation while you're here.
He wasn't killed in self defense.
Again if you think that, you've not looked in to the matter.
You just said "oh, he's right wing. He must have deserved it"
First of all, you're the one claiming that I'm an evil, mentally ill creature that you would like the opportunity to have killed if I ever got to be in power. That's the context. That matters.
Second of all, like... okay... seriously...Anyone with eyes who reads what I've posted can clearly see that I oppose violence and that even in the specific case of self-defense against a far right extremist I stated that I wouldn't support that.
That's what I've said over and over again
And you, for God knows what reason, have chosen to interpret all that as me calling for violence. Which... yeah. I can't believe it.
To be honest, given what you've posted all of this time, I genuinely think that your statement that you oppose political violence is a blatant lie and that you'd relish the opportunity to kill those that you see as your enemies. You've certainly walked all the way up to that line. Why not cross it now?
>>8006>First of all, you're the one claiming that I'm an evil, mentally ill creature that you would like the opportunity to have killed if I ever got to be in power.
I was thinking more gulags. But I never called you evil, nonetheless, as I recall.
To be clear here, this is the event I was talking about.
It's pretty well documented at this point, and not at all as you described it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl
I'm not quite sure about the precise definition, to be honest. Am not a political scientist. I suppose that good people can disagree on that.>>8008
Yes, I've read the article. It's not how you've described the incident. At all.
And this is also getting besides the point... all indications are that you want violence, particularly in the context of killing me, and I don't (obviously, not in the context of my own death, but also not in the context of yours or anybody else's). That's... concerning.
To be honest, like... do you even want to continue this conversation?
I'm genuinely wondering if you insulting me and fantasizing about my death actually gives you joy or not.(User was briefly banned for this post (24h))
I have not fantasized of your death.
This appears to be another one of your ghost creations.
No. It sucks. It's damn tragic, and conversations like this really sap my hope for tomorrow. I'm afraid of the world people like you will create.
"Danielson was shot and killed at about 8:45 pm on August 29, near the intersection of Southwest 3rd Avenue and Alder Street in Portland. Reinoehl was identified as the shooter on social media within hours. A police affidavit requesting a warrant for Reinoehl's arrest, released after his death, included surveillance camera evidence showing that Reinoehl had spotted Danielson and Pappas and had hidden in a parking garage to let them pass, "reaching toward the pocket or pouch on his waistband." When Danielson and Pappas crossed the road, Reinoehl, joined by an associate, followed them, with the shooting occurring moments later. Immediately prior to the shooting, someone was heard to shout "We've got a couple right here", followed first by a warning that Danielson was preparing to use a can of mace and then two gunshots. The actual shooting was not recorded by the surveillance camera, but it was captured on videos recorded by bystanders that circulated online."
>>7922>I think it's difficult
Yeah, I can see that it's difficult. Getting rights for black people has always been difficult. It's like 200+ years of difficulty over here.>>7931
Yeah, unfortunately we can't really police (pun intended) who shows up to a protest, and people of all walks will gladly take advantage of the chaos to do whatever thye feel like. In a sense I'm actually opposed to protesting, I just feel like it hurts a movement more than it helps. That's a whole different topic, though.>>7937>You can't just go to the 1/3 to 1/10 of Americans that are bigots and say "Fuck off!" and expect that that's the end of that
Certainly not, no. Telling them that we disagree is merely the first step. It's after that when we have to try to wrestle power away from them.
Eh, I think you can at least police your own to some extent, even with the most simple of actions just condemning the violence, and of course physically stopping, documenting, reporting, all go a ways to help.
As is, it seems like nothing is being done.
I don't disagree with you in regards to the effect of protests. I don't think they typically build much support. Though they might still work well at lest for getting publicity from media types.
The people you're going to interact with, though, aren't likely to be swayed and are more likely I think to become bitter to your cause