[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]

/townhall/ - Townhall

A place for civilized animals
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
File
Flags  
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

[Return][Go to bottom]

 No.3560

File: 1571163299834.jpg (166.86 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, Fillyflutter.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

...i wonder about something. It is more and more accepted that we should each be able to choose what to do with our own bodies, and that includes transgender stuff, cosmetic surgery, and abortions and things.

i think we can agree, these are important. And yet, why does the conversation about suicide seem the opposite sometimes?

Now... i want to be clear i am not comparing the former to suicide or depression. They are very different in nature.

But that is just the question... At what point -isn't it a person's right to choose what happens to their bodies?

...i hope nobody will be offended by my question. That is not what i want to do, or imply anything at all.

 No.3561

File: 1571172658007.jpg (57.31 KB, 698x667, 698:667, Gardevoir thought id contr….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>3560
>And yet, why does the conversation about suicide seem the opposite sometimes?
I think one major concern is that many suicidal people are temporarily not of sound mind, and if they can be prevented from commiting suicide, they will later be very thankful that they were stopped from committing suicide.  (There are also some religious traditions that hold that suicide is a sin, but I don't think that should influence the government.)  I think we should respect someone's wish to die as long as it isn't just the result of temporary unsoundness of mind.

>>3560
> At what point -isn't it a person's right to choose what happens to their bodies?
I'd say when it threatens to significantly adversely affect others.  Like infecting yourself with a highly contagious disease.  I think a good case can be made for mandatory vaccination for some highly contagious diseases.  Maybe gene-editing your germline cells should be restricted.  Probably grafting a machine gun into your body and hooking it up to be directly controlled by your brain should be illegal unless authorized by the government.   In Dune, a person's bodily water was extracted after their death, and it would be considered very wrongful to deliberately waste one's bodily water.

 No.3562

>>3561
>>3561
>grafting a machine into your body
A machine *gun*

 No.3563

I think you should be able to decide to end your life.  Can you really call it freedom if you're forced to continue an existence you want out of?

 No.3564

>>3560
Because people rarely think about principles and values beyond what feels 'good' to them.
Suicide is a dark thing. People do not like to think about it to begin with.

People ought to have the right to choose to end their life. If they don't, how can they claim to be free?

 No.3570

>>3560
I think it's usually illegal, and you know for humans, authorities are justice.  So suicide usually can't be justice.

Rights are based on ideas of what is helpful or at least benign, especially to others.  But then people disagree on what is hurtful, or how much hurt is tolerable for freedom.  Death is  considered hurtful (unless, of course it is executed by the state).  Suppose you could say, well, you can hurt yourself financially, why not physically?  Or, it's not hurting others, at least not directly.  I don't know.  I think people are pretty set against suicide as a right, in many places being in favor of suicide is forbidden.  Here a thread such as this may be locked at any time.

So to be clear of my authorized point of view, suicide is FORBIDDEN!

 No.3571

>>3570
I don't think I'd say authorities are 'justice'. Authorities can be just, but, they can also be unjust.

The idea of rights as I've always understood it is that you are your own person. That is to say, you 'own' so to speak yourself. You're the captain of your life. And so, if you choose to take action that messes you up, like eat 20 bigmacs or drink nothing but coke 24/7, it's on you.
I think the principles involved in that idea apply to suicide just the same.  

 No.3572

File: 1571224911430.png (126.83 KB, 858x644, 429:322, suicide-laws-map.png) ImgOps Google

>>3570
>I think it's usually illegal, and you know for humans, authorities are justice.  So suicide usually can't be justice.
Nope.  In most of the free world, suicide is legal, and a growing number of jurisdictions are legalizing physician-assisted suicide.

 No.3575

>>3572
Hmm...well, if it is not forbidden by authorities, then I guess it's OK.  Unless not holding the authorized view that suicide is forbidden could be seen as assisting suicide.  In which case suicide is usually FORBIDDEN!

 No.3578

>>3575
>>3575
>Unless not holding the authorized view that suicide is forbidden could be seen as assisting suicide.  
Abstract advocacy of suicide is free speech protected by the First Amendment.  What can be forbidden is intentionally inciting a specific individual to imminently commit suicide.

 No.3580

>>3578
So one may advocate suicide generally, as long as they lack the integrity to advocate suicide for individuals they know.  Seems insufficient motivation to change my authorized position on suicide and it's forbiddenness.  Unless you are Canadian (+ a few others), in which case, do what you like, I have been shown no reason to hold a firm stance.

 No.3581

>>3580
>they lack the integrity
???

See Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969), for the distinction between incitement vs abstract advocacy.

 No.3582

>>3581
I'm not trained as a lawyer, so I'll keep it simple.  Suicide is FORBIDDEN!

 No.3583

File: 1571252760232.png (110.65 KB, 352x318, 176:159, everything is wonderful ya….png) ImgOps Google

>>3581
>>3582
oooo, legal citations... oooo c:

 No.3694

>>3572
How can suicide be "illegal"? Like, how can the law punish you if you are dead?

>>3560
As someone who has been suicidal I'm not sure how to answer this question. Because it always seems different from the person committing suicide's perspective. To them, they are a burden on people they love and they wish to end their and their own suffering.  But to people who are around the suicidal person, they want that person to continue to exist.

To answer your question, you have to answer the fundamental disagreement. Who is being selfish in this situation, the person who wants to die, or the person who wants them to live?

 No.3697

>>3694
>How can suicide be "illegal"? Like, how can the law punish you if you are dead?
Traditionally, punishments included a shameful burial and voiding the person's last will, with the state confiscating the person's assets instead.

 No.3700

>>3697
Alright, so it's a legal distinction. I don't really see a benefit to it being illegal, then.

 No.3710

I think maybe it should be treated like, you must prove to be of sound mine and reasoning, have tried and failed to get out of the situation that is causing you pain (so in this way someone else may be able to offer help), and then have to go through a waiting period...but also prove that you are not being influenced by an outside force, such as a religion or abusive relationship.

I have always held this belief that, if someone truly, truly, wants to kill themselves-they are going to do it. But, you should never stop trying to save them unless their hurt is so extremely obvious and there is very obviously no way that it will end until their death. [like cancer as an obvious example.
>>3694
>who is being selfish

There is immense pain on both sides, and it's very difficult not to think as the other party as not being selfish, isn't it?

 No.3711

>>3710
I've had fleeting thoughts that the people who did not want me to kill myself were being selfish. They did not know my pain, of what I had to do and deal with every day to continue living. That if they truly cared, they wouldn't try to stop me from ending that pain and suffering in what I thought was the only way I could ever escape it. But that was just my perspective as the person who wanted to commit suicide, and it was skewed by my emotions at the time. If you asked someone else, who's on the other side of seeing someone they cared about not wanting to live anymore, they would tell you the opposite. I think this song illustrate the dichotomy well.

 No.3713

>>3711
I fucking hate that song. Not because it's bad, but because my husband showed that to me and I spent months being terrified that he was going to try and kill himself. But yes, it's tells it quite well... I think this song shows another side too.

Eh but, what you were saying:

>If you asked someone else, who's on the other side of seeing someone they cared about not wanting to live anymore,

I don't know if it would be the opposite, exactly, so much as that they see a way that you could be, were you free of that pain. And maybe sometimes have no way to get you to that freedom, and that in it's own way can hurt very badly too. It's all very painful.

 No.3719



[]
[Return] [Go to top]
[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]