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...i watched a documentary today, while exercising, and i got very engrossed in it. it was called, American Factory, on the Netflix.

i do not watch much netflix, but i had this strongly recommended, so i watched it.

...it is about an American factory that shut down, and was replaced by a Chinese owned and operated factory, but in the United States

it showed the cultural differences between America and China... and much more. i felt the translations were a bit unfair, but i do not think the ... interpretations of the cultures were far off point.

as an asian american... Chinese/Taiwanese American, to be precise, i felt very torn between two worlds i can recognize.

i wonder... have you seen this documentary? maybe you can watch this trailer to get a sense.

and maybe, we can discuss!

i'd like to think this is not a very political discussion or anything, and its not a debate.

if it... becomes that way, this will be moved to townhall, but i don't think, or hope, that is necessary right now!


I don't want to assume. What's the gist of it?


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it showed, Chinese workers are very regimented, very collectivist, and sacrifice very much for their families, their company, and their country. But that Chinese workers do not have much free time, or time to be happy people, and they accept that.

It shows that Americans do not have these priorities, and that Chinese managers have no idea how to engage with Americans, and seem very out of touch as a result. It shows how the middle-class sustaining factory job has been replaced by minimum wage factory work of a much more difficult nature that American workers do not seem ready for: a reality they are not prepared to face.

The documentary ends with a failed unionization vote, and most of the employees being slowly replaced by robot arms, which the Chinese managers say are less expensive and less prone to complaining than Americans (but not Chinese) labor.


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This could be a topic more suited for /townhall/

It is always tricky to navigate the cultural stuff and match it up with the proper concept of what the workforce should be.
As a European, I have lots of demands as a worker to earn a proper wage while still having proper rights to free time, compensation for overtime and getting a list of benefoits.
I feel this is important for me as a worker.

But thre's definitely people/cultures out there that think that you can't pay people so much if they don't work like machines and that if you want to make a good wage, you are expected to work all the time, no breaks and no time to go home to your family.

I even feel like America is even more anti work laws compared to Europe, but Asians seem very much driven even more against the desires of the individual.



I've heard similar things about the business culture in high tech firms out of China, though the explanation I heard there was more environmental than cultural. Even skilled labor is cheap and plentiful and workers are highly replaceable. Where an American programming team may be comprised of 5 to 15 people reporting to their superior, a similar team for a Chinese firm may be comprised of 200 people so making a positive impression on your direct manager is much more important.


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i will move it there, i think, if it does end up becoming more of a debate

it is not that all discussion is banned on pony... only debates and stuff that ends up getting political

if it does end up there, i will move it :c


the worker protections that europeans have seem almost like paradise, to an American. and to an east asian... America seems much better than home, often times.

it is not so different though, in Korea, and Japan. and for Asians, in the United States, too: it is, i think, as much cultural as it is societal


Sounds pretty much one would expect from asian vs American stereotypes.

It also worth pointing out other how similar difference in culture between the two groups can affect things. This is what an investigation into Korean airlines flight 801 concluded after it crashed in 1997.

The NTSB was critical of the flight crew's monitoring of the approach, and even more critical of why the first officer and flight engineer did not challenge the captain for his errors. Even before the accident, Korean Air's crew resource management program was already attempting to promote a free atmosphere between the flight crew, requiring the first officer and flight engineer to challenge the captain if they felt concerned.[1]: 59  However, the flight crew only began to challenge the captain six seconds before impact, when the first officer urged the captain to make a missed approach. According to the cockpit voice recorder (CVR), the flight crew had suggested to the captain that he made a mistake, but did not explicitly warn him.[15] The flight crew had the opportunity to be more aggressive in his challenge and the first officer even had the opportunity to take over control of the aircraft and execute a missed approach himself, which would have prevented the accident, but he did not do this. Despite examining Korean Air's safety culture and previous incidents, the NTSB was unable to determine the exact reasons why the flight crew failed to challenge the captain, but at the same time noted that "problems associated with subordinate officers challenging a captain are well known."

In other words it was known to be problem that subordinates were unable to question captains, even when they were about to die.

An airplane isn't a factory. But this is the main example i think of when it comes to why I believe individualism has it's place. Maybe the Chinese factory owners need to accept their new role and are out of touch rather than the workers.

That being said i don't think robots are a bad idea anyway.


Mmh. That's true too I suppose.

I'm not in very good touch with my own culture so it's difficult knowing how much is because of culture and how much is due to other influences.


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i was raised myself in a similar way. i think though, it was not about not questioning, but about saving face: i think, it is not that Korean co-pilots do not wish to question their captains, it is that they do not believe enough in themselves to feel they are right, and not confident enough to point out that their captains are wrong.

Of course, if the plane is going down, that will go out the window, but in this case, it is too late.

...the koreans also, are the most extreme of any of us. even compared to the mainland chinese.


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i heard about saving face! i think i saw a video about how in Japan, they would hire Americans to sit in at meetings, because unlike everyone else, they could directly speak up and criticize the boss in charges ideas and plans.

alot americans aren't afraid to burn things down instead of saving face


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i am afraid, the Japanese have Americans to sit in at meetings, not because they want the Americans to speak directly up (which is absolutely not something the Japanese would want), but because it looks good to have a white person at the table: it is for saving face, as well, in a different way.

there is even a term for this, used in China, Japan, and Korea :c it is an offensive term though


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youtube lied to me? how dare it! i'm gonna write a strongly worded letter

you don't have to say the term, but i 100% guarantee you that somebody would get it tattooed on them and wear it with pride :PP


That's kind of the issue... People in collectivist and high power distance cultures view them positively. And view the opposite with guilt and shame. The subordinates were not taught it was okay to speak out. They were taught guilt and shame for speaking out. Guilt and shame is part of how cultures are perpetuated.

And in that flight, they flight engineer and co-pilot made repeated but very 'saving face' comments that maybe the captian should check his work. They knew he was wrong for a long time before they chose to intervene. When one did. It was too late.

American culture has the opposite problem. People proudly talk their beliefs that qanon will liberate them from pedo files because they have have no shame.

The issue isn't American culture vs Chinese culture. Rather culture itself. Airplanes do not care about saving face. Only surly captains do.


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it is more... not guilt, or shame. these do not translate well. it is more like... gaslighting? it is not that the subordinates were not taught it was okay to speak out: it is that the entire society itself creates a situation where the lower on the hierarchy doubt their own understanding by merit of them being lower... so to speak

guilt and shame, these are more... western motivators. harmony and fear, these are more eastern.

it is the typical word for a Caucasian person, and then the word monkey :c i think it can be a bit offensive though

of course, this is also not all East Asians: it is just, how big business usually operates


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To be honest, I feel like living in a society such as China, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Russia, or the like where there's extremely strict coercion exercised in personal life on a regular basis would be so bad for me that I'd probably lose the desire to live were I in there. I'd either emigrate or just be homeless, relying on begging. I simply couldn't take the demand that my personal identity be exterminated in terms of the will of collective culture.

This actually is a frustration that I've got with family right now, because my desire to do things in terms of dying my hair, painting my nails, wearing bright colors, having my hair long, and so on is frowned upon strongly by my parents. I'm a complete adult. And yet they want to control something even as basic as what shades of the color wheel I have on my chest. But then I guess it's just that they came from a less individualistic generation.

It's genuinely amazing to me that something as meaningless as having a flower on a yellow t-shirt can be interpreted as some kind of a badge of inferiority compared to a plain black t-shirt... but then collectivist traditional norms almost never is logically supported by facts, being based on emotion?

I loved the 'American Factory' film. But it was sad. So sad. The Chinese workers made my heart bleed. They basically were slaves. I can't help but see them as living lives nearly identical to the planation areas near where I've lived in the U.S. south here in Texas.

The overall message that I got from the film is that democratic centrist capitalism is in trouble completing with the Chinese-Russian model (that of a rigid one-race, one-religion, one-thought, one-party, etc authoritarian society) and eventually the 21st century might become a long stalemate between the Anglosphere model and the Chinese-Russian model. Same as when China was engaged in historical stalemates with other geographic rivals long, long back in the Middle ages or such.


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if you grew up in such a society, or in such a culture, you would never even get a sense of what strict coercion means.

i still do not entirely understand how not to be the ways that i am, because of how i was raised. and i will say, as sad as one sees the Chinese workers' lives... they work hard now, because they can see a future where their grandchildren will not have to work as they do.

for me, watching the documentary made me sad for the Americans... who seemed not to share in that kind of hope.


That the Chinese workers are fed on a lie that their children and grandchildren will do better instead of continuing to be poor slaves in a dictatorship just like their ancestors, it honestly makes it more sad to me. It's so clearly false, and yet they truly believe it. Alas.

The American workers are in a different situation though in that they're actively losing democracy and prosperity, but they're clear-eyed about it and... I don't know if that's better?

Is it better to be ignorant of future pain so as to not worry about it, or better to know future pain as to prepare for it? I genuinely can't say. I really can't.

I'll be brutally honest and say that I lived in a society under the Chinese-Russian model than with absolute certainty I'd have committed suicide long before my current age, probably before age 21.

I would honestly argue that from a utilitarian level suicide would be a factually better outcome for me in happiness terms: nonexistence in terms of alleviating pain would be better than existing in constant pain.


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i think, foxxy, that you are mistaken.

...they already are doing better, than their ancestors. and, i have seen, already, the progress they are making. you say, you think they are poor slaves in a dictatorship.

i tell you the truth, foxxy... from what i have seen, in my trips to the Mainland, and Japan, and Taiwan, and Korea... the future for the people you call poor slaves in a dictatorship will be brighter than our own, if we continue to believe we are so far superior.

do not mistake their brutal labor for slavery. i can say, they do not mistake our relatively idle lives, for freedom.

i think, that one even can discuss things like "utilitarian suicide" in terms of strictly one's own happiness is a very individualistic, western mentality. it is a privilege, in some respects that nonexistence and alleviating of pain can be placed in a higher position in one's hierarchy than completely sacrificing of yourself, to build for one's family.

after all, what is the difference, between taking one's own life for nothing, and using one's own life completely, for something? it seems a simple answer to us, if we think as Westerners do: i don't want to suffer, and to waste my life suffering for fruits i will never enjoy makes no sense.

but, in the more Eastern mentality, if one thinks one's life will be but suffering and wishes to waste it, one may as well use it completely up then, building for the next generation.

my own family is like this, and i am in the United States: we are American. We are not subject to any dictatorship: we weren't either, in Taiwan.

But my grandparents enjoyed little personal happiness. My parents neither. And nor shall i. The time has not come for these things. There is, for now, the building: the strength of the family must improve, and enough trees must be planted now that all future generations will have shade enough.

while there is opportunity to plant trees, we plant. while there is opportunity to tend to trees, we tend. and sometimes that means working in a factory. or being a lawyer by day and being a sandwich maker at night. pain begins to lose its meaning, if one lives for a greater purpose than oneself, i think. or at least, this is how i was raised... maybe.


I simply cannot see that it's ethically right to put all of the value on the total community and so little if not none to the individual to where nobody is allowed to actually think their own thoughts and dream their own dreams: the only goodness allowed is to be artificially forced into one.

Humanity is a rainbow. Humanity is rich in its diversity. It's spread. It's ability to dream big. Why must we be forced into a singular inky blackness? How is that not despair in every way?

In terms of death, what is death if not an escape from the prison of life, if it must be a prison?

If one is born inferior in the eyes of the community, and if the community condemns one as being a drain and parasite due to taking in more resources than you make... I cannot imagine such an existence... I simply can't...

I don't see life in the Chinese-Russian model. All I see is slavery. Hatred. Oppression. Death.

Even today, the Russian government has bombed a series of hospitals in Ukraine, exterminating the lives of wounded who were already crying out for help, all in the name of that Asian desire for absolute unconditional oneness.

I dream for my younger siblings and for my potential children in the future, but I dream for them to be rainbows: for them to have diversity in all its forms in terms of what they may say, do, learn, teach, discover, and more. I wish for them to experience a complete self-awareness in which they're as much themselves as they're part of a complex and beautiful web of different communities.

As such, I genuinely to pray to God, whom I think exists, that the Asian way of life is defeated in this current ideological struggle between it and the Enlightenment moral idealism behind Western life.


To be honest, I think that the division between North Korea and South Korea kind of speaks for itself.

In the North, traditional Asian values rein supreme. In the South, traditional Asian values are largely abandoned in the pursuit of Western ideas from democracy to women's rights to LGBT rights to technological progress through cultural change and more.

The North has paid the price for honoring its ancestors' moral standards. It's a wasteland filled with horrible pain. The South has earned the rewards for abandoning its ancestors' moral standards. It's now a modern nation-state with widespread prosperity. Yes, there are many problems and flaws. A great many.

Still... the difference is clear.


I would like to be a pegasus so that I can lose my fear of heights and can instead be glad about being in high places.


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You should watch a documentary called My Octopus Teacher!


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...why do you call it the Chinese Russian model? What does Russia have to do with China, or for that matter, Japan?

how can you speak with such confidence on places you have not been, and cultures you do not even begin to understand, foxxy?

South Korea is the single most traditional East Asian culture of any of us. Every other East Asian is taught that it is best not to marry South Korean men, as they grew up with the most chauvinistic upbringing. Their corporate culture is the worst in the entire world: you even highlighted it yourself, in the airplane thing. Their suicide rate is bar far the worst in the developed world.

SK has arguably the worst LGBTQ rights in all of East Asia: even Mainland China recognizes a form of limited civil union called "legal guardianship" while South Korea does not have anything of the sort. The South Koreans also, are the most conservative (little c) of the East Asian countries: it is an extremely harsh society to live in, as any Korean here will tell you.

The only country in East Asia that has a western level of LGBTQ rights is Taiwan (my nationality!): the only country that legally recognizes same-sex marriage, allows adoption, allows military enlistment for trans individuals (and lgb), has a constitutional level ban on all lgbt discrimination, and allows trans individuals to change their legal gender).

North Korea is very specifically the least traditional of all the East Asian countries, due largely to it abandoning any of its traditions in favor of Juche: a modern ideology, based on a particularly harsh interpretation of Communism... which comes from Germany, not from East Asia.

Also, what is this about "ancestors' moral standards." What do you speak of, foxxy, can you tell me what you mean? Is this not, highly stereotypical?

...how can we Americans possibly seek to challenge East Asia on the global stage, when we so readily buy into our own propaganda, and so completely do not attempt to understand what is going on over there?

...this is just like the documentary. i feel... afraid for our future. it gives me very much... consternation.  

maybe too, it is time, to bring this thread to townhall. i wish we could have just... discussed. it makes me sad to see this interesting thread turned into so pointed and sorrowful a topic. i did not come in here wanting to defend East Asian culture today, and i understand much of it is not defensible from the western perspective.

still... i cannot help who i am.


>which the Chinese managers say are less expensive and less prone to complaining than Americans (but not Chinese) labor.
This is something I've noticed oft overlooked some.
The dangers of automation, as often cited, causing jobs to dry up and work to be paid far less.
We're already in it, thanks to working with nations such as China. Ultimately, odds are good they work for less than machines would be, for many years to come. Startup costs are a pain after all.

We are essentially already seeing the consequences of automation on the working poor as it stands today, with job markets drying up swiftly on labor-intensive by formerly good-paying jobs like factory work, construction, and so on.

Ultimately, it makes me wonder if such an open boarder trade policy is good in the first place, but I suppose it's going to happen eventually, whether the result of trading with nations as these, or the result of automation and its advances.
Still, it's hard not to feel for generations of work which used to pay well, being replaced with foreign laborers perfectly fine with a pittance. It's created a buyer's market for labor, and I don't think that's a good thing.


>they work hard now, because they can see a future where their grandchildren will not have to work as they do.
This, too, might be a major source of the dissonance.
Americans do not, by large, view hard work as inherently bad.
It's why so many take active risks, when building businesses, homes, or even just in their daily work.
It's not viewed as a negative to work hard, nor to have your children work hard, and so on.
The opposite seems to be the case. It's viewed as a virtue the next generation should have.

The biggest complaint I always see for the latest generations here in the west is laziness. The idea that the future generations should work less seems directly contrary to American ideals, it seems.
Perhaps it's a part of that frontiersman culture that's so intertwined with the nation's foundation.


I'd say the big trouble here is the presumption that China is the same as the other nations of the east.
Japan seems less inclined to slave away for a collectivist future, as much as obligation, honor, and a much more localized pride for their given faction.
This is not quite the same as the Chinese utilitarian mindset.

These places seem about as similar as the British and the French, as I see it.
Aesthetically similar, but culturally quite distinct.


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>...why do you call it the Chinese Russian model? What does Russia have to do with China
I didn't say it, but I think I understand where this idea comes from. Mao was an ardent Marxist-Leninist and deliberately modeled the Chinese Communist Party off of how Stalin ran the Bolsheviks in the USSR. Which is to say authoritarianism through one-party rule. Where institutions that were supposed to be democratic were instead controlled by the high ranking members of the Communist Party making their candidates the only candidate and winning by default. Party membership and loyalty were more important than the will of the people. The Russians looked eastward after their Revolution and after similar revolutions in Europe failed to materialize. In China they found fertile ground with Mao's movement.

Now, I think looking at the modern day CCP and the CCP under Mao and thinking they operate identically isn't correct. The CCP has changed and adapted, and now one might say it even thrives. But its foundations are indeed Russian in character. Explicitly. That's literally what Mao was attempting to do. I can only imagine those threads can still be found and followed back to Stalin.  


I know quite a lot. Thank you.

It's simply a matter that as a believer in Western values as racial tolerance, women's rights, free capital business, free speech, freedom of religion, and so on to me I see Asian traditional values as backwards and wrong in their bigotries as well as suppression of freedoms.

In the case of Tawian, I'm glad that the island nation has in large part given up Asian morality in terms of the homophobia, sexism, religious hate, and such inherent to old traditions. Instead, a forcible link from political causes to the United States and other secular Western democracies have caused old ways to die if not be murdered outright. This is all for the better. People shouldn't view their racial heritage and other such things as an oppressive way to view their identities.

As you yourself has pointed out, in LGBT rights in particular Tawian has shed the old, corrupted scales of the Asian values from the past to enact major political reforms so that somebody like me basically has the right to be human. Like an animal with a fresh new skin, Western values represent human ethical progress.

While human beings have rights, ideas do not have rights. We used to have the idea of cannibalism. We used to use humans as furniture. We used to have medicine involving leeches. The underlying ideas were wrong and deserved to die. It meant progress. Because of advancement, we now in worldwide terms have less poverty and other woes compared to decades past, though challenges remain.

Thus, I cannot wait for Asian values to die off and the Chinese-Russian model of society that's lead to outright genocide under Mao, Stalin, and others to fall away.

Looking at the geographical variety of the nations all around East Asia, I cannot help but notice that the least Asian in spirit are succeeding while the ones who've been the most authentically Asian and traditional have failed. And that mainland China only has had growth and improvement in the specific areas with which its betrayed Asian values in order to partially copy Western values, such as massive success in internet business due to Western concepts in entrepreneurial management and scientific progress.

I understand that this comes across as mean, Moony, but my harshness is a result of the cruelty and hatred put forth against me and my peoples. I cannot deny that had I been unlucky enough to be born in China, North Korea, or Russia I would be seen as life unworthy of life due to the circumstances of my birth and my hetiage. I see no empathy from the Asian system. And thus I give back none.


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...from what place can you say, that you know quite a lot? is it from your degrees in international studies, and political science? is it from your lifetime of living as an Asian, or from your frequent trips to East Asia? perhaps it is from your Japanese or Korean family members, or your east asian friends? or maybe it is from your doctorate in international law and immigration. these are my qualifications. from what... do you base your observations?

you forget, the greatest genocides in human history, the extermination of the americas, the nazis... and even the soviet union: these are western, not Eastern. they have nothing to do with Confucius or Lao Tzu or Musashi.

you speak without any knowledge as to what authentically asian means... you make up this image of what it looks like, but i can tell you it is not true, as i live this culture: it is my culture. how can one even know what "betraying" asian values looks like, when one so misplaces what they are?

i am a westerner... i believe in the good of some western values. but not all, and i have seen how horrible some of these are. i too, have seen the bad in asian values. but not all. i do not like this talk, in absolutes, and in extermination of whole cultures.

if asian values die off, maybe you too will be happy if we asians die with them, pseudofox. how can you condemn cultural genocide in one post, and yet pray for it in another?

i understand you are trying to explain the thinking, and i am grateful for that, dear friend. this response then, is not a response to you per se, but to get ahead and respond to the character of what you present as being pseudofox's argument.

Mao is a Maoist, and this was only furthered by the Sino-Soviet split. China is ostensibly Dengist. Stalin was a Stalinist. Perhaps, each of  these has their roots, in Marxist-Leninism, which itself has roots, of course, in Marxism, which is German: a product of the West.

The foundations of communism are western, in character. Not Russian. And though Mao established a vanguard party, after the split, it has been Communism with "Chinese characteristics" the rest of the way.

The Russia of today, as well, has little resemblance to China. Even the nature of its authoritarianism is completely different. Calling it a Sino-Russo system ... doesn't make sense. Modern Russia and Modern China share virtually nothing politically in common except a geopolitical rival in the United States. The mechanisms for their authoritarian regimes are completely different: the process by which their leaders selected, not at all similar, and the processes by which they maintain their power, also different.

Russia, as an oligarchic authoritarian kleptocracy, bears very little resemblance mechanically or philosophically to China.

...i don't like this thread anymore. i just wanted to talk about the documentary, not defend my culture's right to exist.  


>you forget, the greatest genocides in human history, the extermination of the americas, the nazis... and even the soviet union: these are western, not Eastern. they have nothing to do with Confucius or Lao Tzu or Musashi
Interesting that you're this ignorant of what is supposedly your own history.

You know of western instances because that is what the west focuses on.
The region reads its own history.
If you think Asia is not wrock full of bloodshed just as bad if not worse, you do not know your own people as well as you think.
Hell, there's bloodshed of this order going on right now, with the Uighers.
The notion that genocide is somehow unique to the west is laughable.


you put words in my mouth, pseudofox. i never said the East is not full of bloodshed. Nor that genocide is exclusive to the west. You may also wish to note that the oppression of the uighers is a cultural genocide: terrible, but not one that involves widespread "bloodshed." Not that it matters, in this specific conversation: i never said that there is no genocide or bloodshed in Asia.

i bring up also the west, specifically because you stated that "Western values represent human ethical progress" and that what you represent as being Eastern values are not life, but "...slavery. Hatred. Oppression. Death."

i noted that the west is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history to specifically note that no culture has a monopoly on progress... or a monopoly on hatred, or slavery. in fact, with regards to slavery, Western culture has almost certainly enslaved more people than any other culture by a very substantial amount. :c

And this again, is to say we must have nuance. i think Western and eastern cultures both have good and bad. The documentary is about that too. i seek most of all to reject your notion that my culture is so worthy of extermination by a superior Western culture


I am not Fox, just one deeply irritated at your one-sided narrative of "the west" supposedly being home to the worst of bloodshed.

Spend some time actually learning Eastern history and you'll find plenty equal to the West.
Your narrative is convenient, but inaccurate, and frankly betrays an ironically western viewpoint.

Then again, you're also claiming the Uighers genocide is 'bloodless'. So perhaps this is more to do with simple propaganda, rather than merely learning history from a western teaching.

>bring up also the west, specifically because you stated that "Western values represent human ethical progress" and that what you represent as being Eastern values are not life, but "...slavery. Hatred. Oppression. Death."
I've not said such things, and more poinyently, I do not think Fox has either.
Mind your critiques of putting words in others mouths, as you do the same.

>i noted that the west is responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human histor
The claim was not some.
I'd have no issue with some.
The claim was "the greatest genocides in human history".

I agree no culture has a monopoly. Which is why your aggressive defaming of the west as the worst of the worst irritated me so.

Then again...
>Western culture has almost certainly enslaved more people than any other culture by a very substantial amount. :c
Given this, it may simply be down to a radically divergent worldview and understanding of facts.
Frankly, this claim seems directly and objectively false, from what I know of history.
It's trivially easy to refute; I merely need to point to the Persian empire.

>i think Western and eastern cultures both have good and bad
There we agree, so perhaps it'd be wise to cease your insistances the greatest atrocities are on the west alone.

>i seek most of all to reject your notion that my culture is so worthy of extermination by a superior Western culture
I never said this.
Spend more time looking at who you're speaking to, and less trying to find demons to blame the west on, and maybe this'd be clear.


Human beings have rights. Ideas do not have rights. An idea that's false and wrong should be opposed, not held for some kind of emotional appeal.


i did not say the uigher genocide is bloodless... these are also words put into my mouth. The United States categorizes the genocide as cultural, so i use the terminology. It is not bloodless, but not, as stated, widespread bloodshed.

as for fox saying those things, anything in quotation marks is directly quoted, verbatim, from fox's post. i changed nothing in the wording or context... please maybe, before you condemn, be aware of the context

are not the greatest genocides not some, and not all?

i do not see to defame the west -- i am a westerner. You do not need to defend it from me

the population of slaves in the Persian Empire is not something i confidently know, but if it is comparable to the number of slaves in the Spanish Empire, then i think, my point stands: my point being not that western culture is bad, but that it is not blameless, and that, in turn, Eastern culture is also not bad because it is not blameless.

i absolutely do not insist that the greatest atrocities are alone the west's fault: specifically i stated that the West is responsible for certain great atrocities. If that was not clear before, let me state so unequivocally: the west is not solely responsible for atrocities.

i am completely in agreement that no culture has a monopoly of atrocities and i absolutely do not wish to state the west has done that, nor even wish to imply that the west has done the majority: only that they, we, have done some.

i mistook you for pseudofox, who did state that they felt that Eastern values are, as stated in the quotes above, unworthy of continuation.

And in so doing, my fundamental  point stands: Eastern culture and values are not wholly worthless, nor evil, and Western cultures and value not wholly gold nor progressive.

The conversation must be more nuanced then this, is i wished to say :c


Then the issue is our definition of 'widespread'. It certainly seems 'widespread' to me.
I'm unconcerned with the labels diplomats use to excuse horrific incidents while maintaining trade relations.

*as for fox saying those things, anything in quotation marks is directly quoted, verbatim, from fox's post
The typical means to do so is to link to the given post, and place it in greentext.
Certainly makes it easier to review.
It wasn't the vibe I got from my reading.

>are not the greatest genocides not some, and not all?
If you're claiming the west has done the greatest genocides, I maintain my earlier points in spite of this trivial deviation.
You're simply wrong.

>, but if it is comparable to the number of slaves in the Spanish Empire, then i think, my point stands
Considering the size of the Persian Empire I rather doubt it.

Besides of which this is hardly the only slave Empire. The ottomans also are a prime example.

>but that it is not blameless,
Again we agree, but you seem to be wanting to frame it as though the West is worse.

>specifically i stated that the West is responsible for certain great atrocities.
The "greatest genocides", yes.
Thus my issue.

For the rest pertaining to Fox I am not convinced as you claim he believes all of Asian culture, every aspect thereof is bad.
I think this is an emotional miscaritarization of the argument.


i apologize :c i am not so good at the internet and stuff... i will try better to quote. i am also on my phone.

i cannot continue, but again, i am not trying to say western culture is bad, or worse. Frankly it may be better! But i do not think eastern culture is one of slavery and death.


Entirely of, no.
But I would agree that much as western culture has, old values need to change if improvement is to be had.

Utopia is an impossible goal. There is forever more to do. Working to the grave for a pittance doesn't help change society, it just lines the pockets of a few who would be more than happy to maintain such things forever, if it kept their position.


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The names aside, Mao wasn't always a Maoist. Before the Sino-Soviet split, Mao was essentially a Chinese Stalinist. Marxist-Leninism was thought up by Stalin to justify his actions.

When Stalin died and Khrushchev took power, he decried the acts of Stalin and enacted reforms in the USSR that brought the USSR away from those ML policies, which Mao disagreed with. The Sino-Soviet split was more that Mao picked up the Stalinist torch and brought it forward to the future, when Russia itself set it aside, via the Cultural Revolution.

I understand that the Cultural Revolution is decried by the modern CCP, but that more means the modern CCP is more like China's Khrushchev. While there are reforms though, the authoritarian communist bones grown originally by Russians still lingers.

And yes, modern Russia doesn't resemble modern China very much. That's why I'm mostly sticking to the Communist phase.


I think the collectivist mindset has a great deal many benefits.  It is in some ways an idealized form of society.  But in other ways, we have not yet reached a point where we can participate in such a society.  I cannot speak for China or the Chinese, but the biggest gap for the west to match such a collectivist society is getting everyone on board with the idea to begin with.  Namely, those at the top of the hierarchy.  

Throughout not just US, but western history as a whole, our leaders have also been individualistic, and it has come at great expense to those forced to serve.  Our slaves did not work under the guise of a better future for their grandchildren.  They worked because they were forced to, purely for the benefit of another class of people.  That they've even mildly moved away from that, and only recently so, required an upheaval of systems.  At every step of our development, we are told to question everything, because we live in a society of thieves and murderers, and some of those thieves and murderers do so in broad daylight, because they have controlled the justice system and convinced people that what they are doing is not stealing and killing.

This is, again, a fully outside perspective.  I am not Chinese, I was not raised Chinese, and I have never even been to China.  But when I hear what various levels of leaders are doing in China, and the things demanded of the lower class by society, I reflect upon our own leaders.  How they were cleanly revealed to be abusive, lying and cheating the system, and how in the interim it looked an awful lot like what goes on in China.  I only hope that in China the collectivism truly expands to all levels of the country, and it isn't merely an irrational belief of the citizens that they are making the lives of their grandchildren better.


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...neither too was Stalin always a Stalinist, nor Lenin always a Marxist Leninist, nor Marx always a Marxist.

The modern CCP is Dengist, which is quite far from China's Khrushchev. The directions that Russia and China went, at that point, are indeed what makes them very different.

Modern China too is still very Communist: it is not apparent to Western observers, because we are taught China is so good at capitalism. But its state capitalism... and the government owns the capital.

but, i think also, this is an aside. i know this is not really what you are arguing, either: it is trying to support the position of another, in further understanding. still, when one says russian-chinese system, i think, when discussing modern governments, to look back at what may or may not have been such a thing during the era of Khrushchev, Stalin, and Mao is not relevant to what it actually is, today.

in the documentary itself, there was a moment that struck me very profoundly.

when the manager from China tries to motivate his American employees, the way he talks: it is the way i was motivated by my own family, growing up.

He says things like working hard and being efficient will bring success to the company, and how success of the plant brings glory to the United States, and increases the prosperity of the nation: how by working at our best, we make the country and the society a better place

and it landed with such a hollow, resounding thud on the Americans listening: it does not resonate whatsoever, because none of these things was ever their motivation for working.

the documentary goes over their motivations for working: one woman has to live in her sister's basement, and she wants her own place to live. she says, she lacks independence: even the bed does not belong to her. Another says, she used to have a middle class lifestyle, until the old plant closed, and wishes to have that back.

motivations of bringing honor to your country, to your people, to your family, it does not even enter the calculus. and sometimes, my western friends, when i bring my own feelings to them on these subjects, they tell me, why should they??

and i just... i cannot seem to understand why they should not. ...while certainly, it is unfair that some get rich, and that the rich exploit the poor, there are greater concerns than this too: the greater good. if, in the end, my life's work serves the greater good... does it matter, that it was short, or bitter? are we not each of us, a single part of a much greater whole? is it not our obligation, or duty, to build that brighter future?

maybe not. but it is hard for me not to see the world in this way. and sometimes, the idea that one might live... in a way so focused on what one wants themselves, is alien to me. how can we be angry at a selfish world, when we are so addicted to selfishness? it is, a hypothetical question.


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Lenin was never a Marxist-Leninist, it's a philosophy invented by Stalin after Lenin died.

Any system that follows or followed Marxist-Leninism has ties to Stalinist thought due to it being created by Stalin to justify Stalinism. Maoism is Stalinism replacing Stalin with Mao and tailored for China rather than with the Global Revolution led by Stalin through the USSR.

As for the modern CCP and Dengism, and Khrushchev I admit I oversimplified. I was in a rush. Khrushchev in China would be whomever took over after Mao died and the Cultural Revolution ended. Obviously they weren't 1:1 but there are similarities.

And yes, modern China is a form of State-Capitalism sprouted from the Communist power structure to serve their needs.

If I have an argument, it would be that Authoritarian Communism is Russian in origin as a branch off of German/European Socialism. Socialism in and of itself is not necessarily authoritarian. Marxist-Leninist countries are part of what was the Russian project at the time and so are influenced by Russia from the time. Whether that country is China, Vietnam, Cuba, wherever. The authoritarianism is Russia's contribution to socialism.

Modern Russia dumped the Communism but kept the authoritarianism, where modern China, notionally, maintains both. China also diverged from Russia during the split and their path from that split hasn't fallen off a cliff, but the mutual road started in Russia. International Communism is, and has been, led primarily by China for decades now.

And you can feel free to disagree, but until these various Communist nations move away from one-party rule, I'm personally going view them as having a significant Russian influence on their cultures. Because they're using and adapting a system made by Russians, for Russians, in Russia, to export to other countries to be led by Russia. That sort of thing has an impact.


>motivations of bringing honor to your country, to your people, to your family, it does not even enter the calculus. and sometimes, my western friends, when i bring my own feelings to them on these subjects, they tell me, why should they??

As mentioned, we live in a society of thieves and murderers.  That isn't simply a jab at the upper class.  It permeates every part of our society, and perhaps dates all the way back to Rome.  The concept of honor itself is practically foreign to western culture.  We sometimes decry that people have acted dishonorably, but only because they have been caught doing so and we as of yet have not.

>if, in the end, my life's work serves the greater good... does it matter, that it was short, or bitter? are we not each of us, a single part of a much greater whole? is it not our obligation, or duty, to build that brighter future?

The gap in our viewpoints is that you believe there's a greater good to serve.  The West has never had a greater good.  What few things might be considered "great" or "good" are unquestionably not what anyone is actually doing.  Most labor in the US is funneled purely into scamming each other.  Customers are victims, and often so are the employees.  The brighter future we want to build towards is not achieved by compliance, but by rebellion.  It's a future we could have today, if only so many people weren't standing in the way.


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>If, in the end, my life's work serves the greater good... does it matter, that it was short, or bitter? are we not each of us, a single part of a much greater whole? is it not our obligation, or duty, to build that brighter future?
Your goals are your own. That is the greatest strength of individualism.
You can achieve your own view of a brighter world. You can create your own goals, your own adventures and stories to hold aloft and in the end say you've done something.
Duty is something, in the western perspective, chosen. Not inherent.
Some answer the call to duty. Some do not. But it's not to be coerced.

Conduct your life as you wish; For myself, the cries of honor to a corporation ring hollow. The claims of glory brought to my nation from the mouths of foreigners, empty. The pained labor to line another's pockets, a sure way to persist the status quo and never improve.

What ends some large manufacturer and their plant managers desire, I am confident is not my own.
I long for independence, throughout the world. Where each man is able to carve his own destiny, seek his own enlightenment, improve that which he desires, and follow his own moral compass.
I do not consider this 'selfish'.
Some may choose that path, sure. But that's their choice. I honor that. Not the hollow cries of progress a corporation determines from a spreadsheet.
Not the empty honor of an efficiency report.
To say to your fellow man instead, do as your heart desires, unburdened from the demands of the world, I find far more noble. Regardless of if that is a comfortable journey, if the outcome suits my tastes.

This, perhaps, is the greatest difference at play.
I'd see the world glassed, bare sands all across its surface, if humanity were free.


As first principles it's absurd that opposition to the Chinese-Russian model of collectivism and nationalism is equated to bigotry against people.

If somebody said "I hate the Israeli political system" and "I hate Israeli moral values" one would be hard pressed to call that person against the Israel people as a whole, let alone prejudiced against Jews as a whole. Why cannot this logic apply to people from Asia? It's silly.

Why should one abandon one's loyalty to one's own personal family and one's own local community of families as well as one's own religious community nearby for a supposed mythical idea of nationalism for a supposed glorious nation-state of the mythical distant past or a mythical distant future?

Especially when such nationalism involves spreading coercion and hatred upon victims all over the place that my communities might particularly have empathy for? Or that might even harm my communities? And when nationalism is an empty call by power-mad politicians seeking ever more authority and wealth for themselves?

A corporation is an artificial construction based on economic and legal principles. It's not a person. It cannot have feelings and principles. To say that I should give up my loyalty to my family and give it to a corporation is beyond stupid. It's frankly an insult. It's like saying that I should give up visiting my grandparents ever again and spend my time devoted to a social media personality whom I chat with online at my house constantly.

It is especially horrid to me that this belief in upholding your own individual rights as well as the rights of your own local peoples in their social harmony is viewed as "selfish". How is wanting my family to be better off "selfish"? How is wishing for people I've loved to receive love from others "selfish"?

I believe in the greater good and for just moral ethics. These are based on the flesh and blood that I care about. Not the empty slogans of politicians and businesspeople.

I understand your ethics of wanting glory and prosperity for your race as a race and your nation as a nation, Moony, but it's just a way of thinking that I oppose completely.


> we live in a society of thieves and murderers
I don't wanna put it that way, but honestly when I think about the subject, it kinda contributes a lot.

I am here working to ship goods to people who are too lazy to go to the store. I hardly think my job fits anywhere near being something that brings great honor on my country, on my ancestors on whoever. I don't think my job really paves the wave for the betterment of the next generations.
If I had a manager trying to motivate me by appealng to my love for the Motherland, I'd feel it's kind of ridiculous.

If a boss wants to call on his team to do extra work and pull in extra effort, he'd better sit on the job with his team.
But often those great managers call in everyone to cancel their leave, asking the team to put in extra unpaid work and then... the higher ups just drive off in their fancy cars towards their next holiday resort.
or they announce that some tough budget cuts are needed and people may lose their job and the bonus that is long due is denied and then we find out some higher ups gave themselves a real fancy bonus.
A nation of thieves indeed. try to motivate yourself for putting in the extra work and sacrifice your life for the greater good then.

Me, personally, if you want to motivate me to work, best appeal to my ego. kind of slime up to me that this big work needs to be done in time and I'm just the guy, the hope for this work. That works better than telling how it's my duty and for the honor of whatever nation or deity.
And be respectful for me as an individual. Don't tell me that it's my job and that my pay is gonna be cut if I don't make everything happen.

Also, I always find it hard to fit in tight work pressure with the wy society tends to be set up. I wonder how it's possible to work long hours if stores close early and your kid has to be taken care off after school hours.


In the US, we live in a fractured society.  Given that there is no "us", there is no incentive for the society to do anything to save the individual aside from self-interest.  The outsourcing, extraction of wealth, and race to the bottom will continue until the nation ultimately collapses.


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So I originally had planned a long winded, preachy, political analysis of what amounted to my opinions on this topic. And so I posted a fragment of that to tease the rest of it.

Rather than doing that I recommend watching the documentary. It roughly correlates with everything I originally thought it would be about but the finer details make the bulk of what I had to say seem embarrassing and hasty.


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Reading through this thread I just want to comment that I find a lot of arguments about collectivism vs individualism kinda pointless and rooted in a flawed reductionist framing wherein the two concepts are treated as mutually exclusive and that cultures are treated as exclusively one or exclusively the other when in reality most cultures fall somewhere in between the two and analyzing and comparing cultures is more productive when one ask questikns like how each culture is collectivist or individualist or when it's more one than the other.

Would certainly be a whole hell of a lot better (and frankly more honest) than stand-offish arguments about whether or not one should even exist or arguments over who's was worse. It's especially absurd given that there really isn't such a thing as a truly homogeneous culture.


Personally, I'm an absolutist about individualism.
So it'd probably not pan out any different for me.


Not gonna lie, every time I post here I worry that some day this place is going to show up on the evening news.

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