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 No.10325

File: 1637705066722.jpg (52.6 KB, 698x588, 349:294, 1637597916177.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Do you think that Kyle Rittenhouse has any viable defamation claims against those who falsely claimed that he was a white supremacist?

As a general matter, drawing a false conclusion is not defamatory as long as the factual basis is stated and true.  For example, saying "Kyle drank beer with members of the Proud Boys, and therefore he is a white supremacist" is protected speech.  But if the speaker implies the existence of undisclosed facts, the conclusion can be considered defamatory.  For example, if a speaker says "I have read Kyle's private diary, and from that I have concluded that Kyle is a white supremacist", but the speaker lied about reading the alleged diary, then there might be a viable action for defamation.

 No.10326

File: 1637735972357.jpeg (83.21 KB, 528x700, 132:175, 0 SN9OLLuKaKvKFJR_.Jpeg) ImgOps Google

>Do you think that Kyle Rittenhouse has any viable defamation claims against those who falsely claimed that he was a white supremacist?
Possible. Worst case he'll make the News pay a pretty penny fighting it if they decide to do so.

 No.10327

Enough of a case to initiate suit, and give risk, meaning settlement is likely.
He’ll absolutely be able to prove damages.

 No.10334

Don't all of the political commentators who happen to be Jewish, black, disabled, gay, transgender, or whatever else have a much better claim to using the legal system in order to stop their constant, ongoing libel and slander of being called communists, Marxists, and socialists by fanatics just due to them being born different? Not to mention being subject to open threats of violence by those fanatics? This happening over and over again?

Can't, to be specific, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez sue the legions of fanatics for the violent threats made against her, threats made even by fellow member of Congress Paul Gosar?

Could 4chan, Fox News, Stormfront, and not to mention all varieties of other hateful political media even exist for much longer if we actually had a fair and just application of defamation laws?

Could ex-President Trump stay out of jail if we actually had a fair and just application of defamation laws too, besides?

In sum, there's quite a gigantic, Grand Canyon like gulf between whether or not this is a matter of principle versus ideological hackery.

 No.10336

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>>10334
>Don't all of the political commentators who happen to be Jewish, black, disabled, gay, transgender, or whatever else have a much better claim to using the legal system in order to stop their constant, ongoing libel and slander of being called communists, Marxists, and socialists by fanatics just due to them being born different?
Given that Bernie Sanders self-identifies as a socialist yet managed to be top contender for the Democratic primary, I'm going to guess that being called a socialist isn't injurious enough to reputation to be actionable.  At one point in time, being falsely called a Communist was legally defamatory, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

>Not to mention being subject to open threats of violence by those fanatics?
>Can't, to be specific, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez sue the legions of fanatics for the violent threats made against her,
True threats are not protected speech, so a tort action could be viable.

>threats made even by fellow member of Congress Paul Gosar?
I don't think that was a true threat.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_v._United_States

>Could 4chan, Fox News, Stormfront, and not to mention all varieties of other hateful political media even exist for much longer if we actually had a fair and just application of defamation laws?
4chan is a platform, not a speaker.  It is shielded by Section 230.  Do you any examples of Fox News or Stormfront defaming any persons?

>Could ex-President Trump stay out of jail if we actually had a fair and just application of defamation laws too, besides?
Criminal penalties for defamation have mostly been abolished.

 No.10337

>>10336
To brass tacks: Why is it good for people to be libeled and slandered if they're not 'Team Red', but if somebody is 'Team Red', such as Rittenhouse, special snowflake rules have to apply to them that make them different and supposedly unable to take the hatred that others are forced to take in?

To be really blunt: Isn't this just example 12,357 or whatever of 'Team Red' trying to find whatever tool they can to hurt everybody of every other tribe?

 No.10338

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>>10337
>Why is it good for people to be libeled and slandered if they're not 'Team Red',
It's not.  I oppose asserting all such falsehoods, even if they are injurious to my political opponents.

 No.10340

File: 1638102352334.jpg (92.8 KB, 636x353, 636:353, This-Is-Normal-Political-D….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>10338
Why the different treatment, then?

Why are so many 'Team Red' members such emotionally weak special snowflakes types who scream at the loudest at nothing more than hurt feelings, not being expected to be able to deal with the hate speech and false statements of fact that other groups are just expected to deal with?

If the splinter in the eye of 'Team Red' hurts, doesn't that maybe mean that the logs in the eyes of everybody else might also hurt?

In sum, why isn't sauce for the goose sauce for the gander? What makes 'Team Red' so Goddamn special? So entitled compared to everybody else? Why do they have special rights that everybody else doesn't?

>Picture extremely related (this is what political discussions in America are like now, this being just how it is... note that the individual being threatened isn't even a liberal or a Democrat but just a compromising conservative Republican who isn't an extremist):

>

 No.10341

>>10337
To be blunt; It isn’t, nobody here is saying it is, and nobody here wants it to be.

I’m sure when you’ve been fed constant propaganda it looks like the enemy is one way.
But that’s an issue of propagenda being a problem. I’d suggest avoiding it.

 No.10342

>>10339
There is no different treatment, they aren’t whining or crying or being snowflakes over hurt feelings. They aren’t getting special rights nobody else gets.

These claims are flatly put, fabricated.
Rather obviously so. Which is doubtlesss why you do not give a single source. Just massive generalizations and stereotyping, with wide sweeping statements you’re happy to pin to your rivals.

Consider looking from more than one angle. From more than one source. You may well find you’ve been lied to all this time/

 No.10343

>>10341
It's not "propaganda" to say that everybody who isn't 'Team Red' has been and currently are now being subject to pathological seething hatred including both outright threats and false statements of fact. It's reality. Reality as much as that water is wet and the sky is blue.

That 'Team Red' is pulling the special fucking snowflakes card and saying that they can't deal with what other people are forced to deal with isn't a surprise, but it's amazing from an intellectual honest level.

I'm reminded of that old joke about the child who killed his parents saying that he/she/they deserves mercy on the account of being an orphan.

 No.10344

>>10340
>this is normal
>literally unique enough to show up on the news

Apply simple logic next time, and you might find the narrative you’ve been fed is false.

 No.10345

>>10342
>>10344
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the bubble world that you exist in might have problems and that maybe there's a nice world out there in which multiple other groups exist, interact, and live complicated lives not subject to your black-versus-white absolutist view of the world?

Instead of your 'Team Red' bunker where everything has to be one way?

Just saying.

 No.10346

>>10343
Given you’re the guy who said in a prior thread you’d murder people of the “red” tribe in cold blood, I think it safe to say the narrative that it’s only one way is absurd.
But even leaving aside the direct links to what you yourself have said for a moment; do you sincerely believe deranged left wing extremists haven’t made death threats?
Haven’t spewed hatred, harassed people?
Are you genuinely going to sit here and prefect how your side is supremely holy, and can do no wrong?

Regardless; Taking issue with lies does not make one a special snowflake.
Frankly that you side with liars, and insult those who are lied about, tells us all we need to know about your own moral fiber.

 No.10347

>>10345
Right, it’s a “bubble” to use basic logic.

If you’re incapable of understanding something as simple as “common things aren’t reported by the news”, it’s not I living in a bunker.
It’s you.

 No.10348

>>10346
I still find it shocking that you on 'Team Red' genuinely think of yourselves as special fucking snowflakes that can't deal with even the tiniest, most minute sliver of what everybody else who's not your tribe deals with.

It's genuinely amazing to me that you've not the slightest curiosity of what life is like for all other tribes that aren't your tribe.

And that there's no way that your tribe isn't always right, always special, and always perfect.

 No.10349

>>10347
Are you really so horrifically ignorant that you don't understand how what was just posted is the most sliver-like speck of what gets shoveled upon everybody who's not 'Team Red' on a daily basis?

You can scream that you're a special fucking snowflake to the rafters, but everybody else who's not in your specific tribe that thinks of itself as the master tribe, perfect in every way, feels skeptical.

 No.10350

>>10348
And I find it telling how you default to collective guilt, saying I ‘deserve’ what I get because of what people who aren’t me have done to people who I don’t know.
Has it ever occurred to you that this kind of horrific ideological generalization leads continually throughout history to massive massacres?
Seriously, dude. Think about what you’re saying. Because of something someone else said somewhere else, to someone who neither of us know, it’s okay for you to say that you’d murder me in cold blood if you had the chance.

Doesn’t that put up a few red flags in your mind?

I don’t believe my “tribe’ is always right, always perfect, or always special.
Though that’s probably because I don’t consider myself in a particular tribe. But I’m assuming you mean the “right”.
Trump fucked up on a huge number of issues, especially the 2nd Ammendment. Republicans more generally don’t ever seem to get off their asses and do anything about the corruption at play in the major legal institutions. Many right wing pundits are out-of-touch boomers, or simply unconcerned wit the goings on inside the borders of the US compared to abroad.
And ultimately, I consider government by large to be a moral dead end. Leaving my own preferences ultimately for anarchy.

Morally, on that one, anyONE can be immoral.
AnyONE can do something wrong.
Unlike you, I do not equate that to a GROUP, though INDIVIDUALS are responsible for their INDIVIDUAL actions.
Not groups.
I’m not about to hang every left winger for the murder of Aaron Danielson, for example. That’d be obviously wrong.
I would’ve hoped this is a universal standard we could all agree on. I guess it isn’t

 No.10351

>>10349
Again; Media reports on the uncommon.

If it is as you say, go ahead and gather your sources and provide them.
I’m sure I can give you links to threats I’ve received over the years from particularly deranged lefties, too.

In fact, I recall here there was this one guy saying he’d murder me in cold blood if he had the chance, because of his paranoid fear I’d one day maybe do something…
Would that work for you?

 No.10352

>>10350
>>10351
To be honest, I'm kind of done with you and your idea, like the rest of your tribe, that being a part of a 'Team Red'-- the master tribe better than everybody else and mastering everything compared to everybody else-- makes you such a special fucking snowflake who's so fucking perfect and so fucking right and so fucking wonderful.

I'm sure that, in your mind, you're one of the best, smartest, most talented, most attractive, and all around just most friendly human beings on Earth: and your tribe is like that, and everybody else are just meat with eyes walking around a national piss stain.

I don't care.

You're not a special fucking snowflake. You're not fucking perfect. You're not always fucking right.

Perfection doesn't exist in a fallen human world.

I do hope and might literally pray that you wake up and abandon your blindness, though.

In terms of the thread: sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. 'Team Red' doesn't have to have superior rights over everybody else. As a member of 'everybody else', I'm sure as hell not going to go along with that. And I'm not alone.

 No.10353

>>10352
Literally just said the opposite. I gave reasons I think “red tribe” as you’ve pinned me into against my will is shit.
But you don’t care.
You are genuinely incapable of listening to what other people say.

I consider myself smart enough, pretty untalented in much of anything, and generally cold if polite to people I don’t know.
Hardly the deranged presumption you’ve created for me.
Nor do I collectivize for my “tribe” that again you’ve forced on me.
Most Republicans I see on TV are idiots, ugly to begin with, and as far as I can see, completely devoid of the most basic skills beyond running their flabby mouths and occupying a set.
Again; Not what you pin to me.

All you can do is make up shit about people, say they’re guilty for being in the wrong tribe, and then justify what horrible shit you’d do to them.
Again; Only one of us here has advocated for murder.
That someone is you, mate.
Take a look in the mirror sometime.

 No.10354

>>10352
By the way: I’m literally a fucking anarchist.
So cry more about “superior rights” as though that’s something I believe.

I’m sure it’s real convincing for everyone else around here. Nobody thinks you’re just a crazy lunatic who’d see anyone right of Stalin as Satan himself.

 No.10355

>>10353
>>10354
I do like the irony that you keep lying in a thread about conservatives trying to abuse libel and slander laws, though.

Thanks for the smile.

 No.10356

>>10355
The fuck am I lying about?
What, you assume you somehow know my own beliefs better than me?

Respectfully, fuck yourself.
All you’ve done is label me, and yell at me for shit I’ve never done.
That makes you a thoroughly reprehensible human being.
I don’t like shitty people like you shoving words into my mouth where they don’t belong, slapping a label on me, and saying I deserve one thing or the other because of what category you’ve decided to shove me.

Not only is it incredibly dangerous as an ideology, given you’ve already advocated for the murder of innocent people, it also simply makes you an asshole.
So fuck of already.

 No.10357

>>10356
Digging in deeper, I see.

Still smiling.

Although given your admittedly mentally unbalanced sort of behavior and the fact that you're armed with quite the hot-headed desire for you to hurt your supposed ideological enemies in person, I do feel a bit of a pause, but ultimately your types won't win, your sort can do whatever you want with your guns but it won't matter in the long-run.

 No.10358

>>10357
Nobody likes being told by some know-it-all little shitheel what they are, in spite of what they actually believe, do, and otherwise think.

I know what i am. YOu do not.. Yet you’ll call me a liar, when I say my beliefs.
You don’t fucking know me, jackass. You just assume you o because I disagree with you. You assume everyone who disagrees with you is a evil right winger.

I sincerely hope you get the help you need before you hurt someone, as you’ve already stated directly you’d do.
But I’d settle for you playing in traffic, if you’d rather.

 No.10359

>>10358
Keep digging, I guess.

Seeing this sort of thing from the likes of you and your ilk does sort of do a lot to generate a kind of idealism in me, and I think in most people, that you and your ilk can't win, no matter how seething your hate, deep your ignorance, or big your guns.

Justice, liberty, democracy, and the like... they win in the end.

I'll let you have the last word: go ahead and vent more bile, make more threats, et cetera.

 No.10360

>>10359
I agree. They will win out.

Which is why fascist fuckups  like yourself will be left in the dirt where they belong.
Collectivism is a bad thing. ANd all us regular joes of every walk of life? We don’t like it either. Black, white, Asian, or Arabic, it doesn’t matter. Shitty collectivist scumbags who’d hold our ‘group’ that they put on us against us, blaming us for what someone else has done, what some other guy has said, and saying we deserve the shitty treatment shitheels like you give us?
Yeah, you don’t have to be a particular race to say those types of garbage human beings are scum of the earth.

Thankfully there’s not a huge load of racist little worms like yourself out there. Whenever you try pulling your deranged revolution, you’ll find that out quickly. When you try to murder someone in the street, just as happened to Aaron Danielson, just as you had said you’d do yourself, with any luck, there’ll be a regular 9/5 guy of whatever race who happens to be behind you, sees what you’re trying to do, and responds accordingly.
Maybe with luck, he’ll save a life. If not, at least an innocent person will be avenged, and another racist shitheel eager to folllow in the footsteps of genocidal maniacs is dead in the street.

 No.10361

>>10340
That is kinda off-topic for this thread.  See also https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/qNZM3EGoE5ZeMdCRt/reversed-stupidity-is-not-intelligence :
>Someone once said, “Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.” If you cannot place yourself in a state of mind where this statement, true or false, seems completely irrelevant as a critique of conservatism, you are not ready to think rationally about politics.
Red Team misbehavior elsewhere is not relevant to the merits of potential defamation lawsuits that Kyle Rittenhouse might file.

Also, just FYI, I am in the Gray Tribe, not Red Tribe.

 No.10365

Defamation lawsuits are a tool of the powerful to suppress the truth. They're never a good thing IMHO.

 No.10371

>>10365
Truth is an absolute defense to a claim of defamation, so ideally, defamation lawsuits should only suppress lies, not truths.  Of course, in practice, sometimes wealthy persons use the threat of defamation lawsuits to suppress the truth, but defamation lawsuits are also be used to fight back against malicious lies.

 No.10436

>>10371
Yea, hardly matters if you've "won" if you've gone bankrupt from needing to pay legal fees with a middle/lower class income... The wealthy have already won by inflicting emotional and financial suffering upon their victims.


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