[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]

/townhall/ - Townhall

A place for civilized animals
Name
Email
Subject
Comment
File
Flags  
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)

[Return][Go to bottom]

 No.10084

File: 1636917381572.jpg (73.75 KB, 960x540, 16:9, rittenhousetestimonyvideo_….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

In US criminal trials, the jury has only two options for each charge: acquittal or finding the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  Should juries have a third option, to chastise the prosecutor and award damages to the defendant when the evidence is strongly on the defendant's side?

Even the mere presence of this option may help avoid juries convicting innocent people.  In the current jury system, a jury may compromise by convicting the defendant on some lesser charges.  But if there is another option to chastise the prosecutor, then the compromise might be instead be fully acquitting the defendant but not chastising the prosecutor.

 No.10085

>>10084
I'd say no, but the defendant ought have a means to seek recompense for malicious prosecution, and that should be the burden of the prosecutor themselves.
But that's down to matters of qualified immunity.

When it comes to criminal cases, it's best to focus on one matter at a time, I feel.
Though this said, civil cases cost too much, and I'd say there ought be means to get a grant for such thing, if you cannot afford a lawyer in those cases. Some means for those who lack significant finance to pursue justice.

 No.10086

If a defendant is innocent and the jury believes them to be so, then acquittal is still on the table.  If they're guilty of some lesser charges, then there's no reason they shouldn't be charged for that.  If they aren't guilty of lesser charges then the jury shouldn't compromise to begin with.

Extending the range of theoretical outcomes in the hopes that more people walk without charges of any kind seems to be missing the point of what we're trying to do.  Not to mention the effect it could have on guilty defendants and how much more difficult it would become to prosecute anyone at all.

 No.10087

If somebody is guilty of minor charges and innocent of more serious charges, then the ethical thing is for them to receive justice for the minor charges. Not to ""compromise"". The law is the law.

P.S. Rittenhouse is an unrepentant murderer and political extremist who in a normal society with normal laws and a normal populace would be behind bars for a long-time, even though in current America his white skin and right-wing politics will both combine to make him free.

 No.10109

>>10085
>qualified immunity
Qualified immunity is a major problem in our judicial system.  Too many cops get away with violating people's rights.

>>10086
>If they aren't guilty of lesser charges then the jury shouldn't compromise to begin with.
I agree, but unfortunately such compromises still happen.

>>10087
>If somebody is guilty of minor charges and innocent of more serious charges, then the ethical thing is for them to receive justice for the minor charges.
Yes, I agree.  The situation that I'm concerned about is when the defendant is innocent of all charges.

>P.S. Rittenhouse is an unrepentant murderer
I strongly disagree.  Did you watch the video recordings and the trial testimony?  
Rosenbaum was calling people "motherfucking niggers" and threatening to cut their hearts out (https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1458204427832082434).  He started chasing Kyle, and Kyle retreated until Rosenbaum caught up with him.  Kyle didn't fire upon Rosenbaum until Rosenbaum was in striking distance of Kyle and lunging for Kyle's rifle.  Clear case of self-defense.

Anthony Huber assaulted and battered Kyle, striking him on his neck with a skateboard, and then grabbed the barrel of his rifle.  Another clear case of self-defense.

 No.10112

>>10109
I agree, but it's not just cops.

 No.10113

>>10087
Every single person who got shot was so after pursuing and physically assaulting Rittenhouse first.
The video proves this as objective fact.

 No.10119

>>10109
>>10113
If I see a mass shooter executing an innocent person in public, aren't I morally justified in attacking him and trying to take his weapon?

Were the Columbine shooters engaged in self-defense when other students tried to take their weapons as they moved from room to room?

 No.10122

File: 1636952148403.png (141.66 KB, 1446x1316, 723:658, rosenbaumrecords-presenten….png) ImgOps Google

>>10119
>If I see a mass shooter executing an innocent person in public, aren't I morally justified in attacking him and trying to take his weapon?
How does that relate to Kyle's situation?  It wasn't a mass shooting (less than 4 people were killed), and neither Joseph Rosenbaum nor Anthony Huber were innocent.  Rosenbaum assaulted Kyle, chasing him, throwing an object in a plastic bag at him, and lunging for his rifle.  Anthony Huber intentionally swung his skateboard at Kyle's head (quite capable of being deadly force) and grabbed his rifle.

But to answer your question anyway:  It depends.  Consider California's citizen's-arrest statute, which is representative of most US states:
"""
A private person may arrest another:
- For a public offense committed or attempted in his/her presence.
- When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his/her presence.
- When a felony has been in fact committed, and he or she has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
"""
Strict liability is imposed on you if you mistakenly arrest someone if no crime had been committed.  That implies a moral judgement that you are justified in arresting someone only if you're damned certain that a crime had actually been committed.

>Were the Columbine shooters engaged in self-defense when other students tried to take their weapons as they moved from room to room?
Someone in the process of committing a violent felony legally forfeits the right of self-defense.

 No.10125

>>10122
If I see somebody dressed identically to a mass shooter and behaving identically to a mass shooter execute an innocent person on a public street, am I morally wrong for attacking that individual in order to prevent more murders?

Even if that individual's white skin and right-wing political beliefs mean that legally he can get away with murder?

 No.10126

File: 1636956507599.jpg (35.73 KB, 413x550, 413:550, hen-sitting-on-kittens-550.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>10125
If you are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that the violent felony has been committed, and you have reasonable cause for believing the person to be arrested has committed the felony, then you would be morally justified in using non-deadly force to perform the arrest.  If you are sure beyond a reasonable doubt that the person in question is the felon, then you would be morally justified in using deadly force to perform the arrest if no lesser degree of force would suffice.

But again, that's all irrelevant to Kyle's situation, because all of his shootings were lawful self-defense.

 No.10127

>>10119
>If I see a mass shooter executing an innocent person in public, aren't I morally justified in attacking him and trying to take his weapon?
The "shoot me n****r" pedophile did that before anyone was shot.
The others never saw what actually happened.
They also swung a skateboard at his head, and pulled a gun on him respectively.

You're not dealing with a mass shooter. That's purely a presumption, and an unreasonable one at that. if he was a mass shooter, he wouldn't be retreating towards police. He'd be shooting into the crowd.

 No.10128

>>10125
>dressed identically to a mass shooter
He wasn't? What?

He was dressed in normal clothes.
He wasn't shooting into crowds.
He didn't execute an innocent person on the street.

>Even if that individual's white skin and right-wing political beliefs mean that legally he can get away with murder?
Political leaning, and skin tone, do not come in to it.
Frankly, that seems to be your own rather disgusting racism coming in to play.

 No.10137

How long until the next Kyle Rittenhouse goes to a local synagogue, local LGBT community center, local historically black library, or whatever else and decides to threateningly open carry as well as provoke fights with people to the point where somebody gets too saucy back at him, causing that future Rittenhouse to kill that individual back in self-defense?

How many more instances of political violence at the hands of the U.S. right-wing are going to happen during the next few years?

 No.10139

>>10137
He didn't do any of that, so never I'm guessing

 No.10140

>>10139
What evidence have you that the right-wing's need for blood has been quenched?

 No.10141

>>10140
They don't have such a need you delusional psychopath.

They are your fellow humans. Stop assuming they're demons based solely on your irrational fear.

 No.10142

File: 1637019369658.jpeg (178 KB, 1174x1024, 587:512, 90.jpeg) ImgOps Google

Kyle is gonna walk.
There is no way a jury is going to convict him.

On the question of OP, I do not believe that the system should not burden itself with your stated third option.
Reason for this as pointed out here >>10085

 No.10143

>>10141
We both know that next Rittenhouse is out there, ready to teach the next group of minority victims or victims engaged in the protection of minorities a lesson of who's really in charge in America.

Or, as its better put, AmeriKKKa.

 No.10144

>>10143
>>10137
Rosenbaum, a convicted child molester, lights a trash can on fire, chases Kyle when he goes to put out the fire, throws an object in a plastic bag at Kyle, and then, when Kyle is cornered, lunges for his gun.  Kyle wouldn't have shot anyone if people had just left him the fuck alone.

 No.10146

>>10143
The next Rittenhouse would simply defend himself when attacked.
That's not a wrong thing.
And, hell, every person Kyle shot was white anyway.

 No.10152

(Edited and condensed because I forgot to put my tag on, whoops.)

>>10087
>P.S. Rittenhouse is an unrepentant murderer and political extremist who in a normal society with normal laws and a normal populace would be behind bars for a long-time, even though in current America his white skin and right-wing politics will both combine to make him free.

So already it's worth pointing out that this isn't really something /townhall/ needs.  The discussion was about something pretty specific, and despite having a picture of the guy in the OP, it wasn't about that guy.  If you wanted to discuss the trial as a whole it should really have its own thread.

>>10125
>>10143
>>10137
>>10140

This kind of hyperbole isn't really necessary here, either.  None of this contributes to discussion, it's just emotional pleas meant to upset people, I am warning you that if this kind of behavior continues on the board I will have to start handing out bans.  No more derailing threads into lanes that aren't even actual discussions.

>>10128
>Frankly, that seems to be your own rather disgusting racism coming in to play.

>>10141
>They don't have such a need you delusional psychopath.

And as long as I'm here, I realize that the statements you're responding to were bound to incite these kinds of responses, whether purposeful or not, but please do not throw wood on the fire by responding to people like this.  Just report it and move on.

 No.10153

Personally, I think you can chastise the prosecutor as much as you can place penalties on the defense attorney for defending a guilty party.

It's their job, so that's all here is.

Well, honestly, I'd wish less defense attorneys would try to release their clients on stupid technicalities, but I suppose that's why I need to swallow that defense attorneys need to do their jobs.

Unless we really have tampering with evidence and other obvious illegal issues.


[]
[Return] [Go to top]
[ home ] [ pony / townhall / rp / canterlot / rules ] [ arch ]