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this: >>842905>>842905>her game
well that's a new one...
edit: game is still up by the way
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we won by not playing
I had an excuse, what about the rest of you losers.
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but I help people, too
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No rush; the game's already been up for... 13 hours!
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Andrea's pretty good!
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good games, Andrea! hope you feel betterhttps://lichess.org/9nbflGvE
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I prefer global thermonuclear war.
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OK, I will improve my face and fear better!
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I sleep now; it is past my bedtime in my timezone. Perhaps tomorrow?
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Nice playing with you, Boat!
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Hey Boat, do you have any suggestions for books or online resources for a novice at chess?
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Well, assuming you're comfortable with the basic rules already:
If you make an account, lichess actually has a series of lessons for improving your game. I worked my way through it out of curiosity, and I learned some things I didn't know even after playing for over 2 decades. It starts with simple concepts and helps you look for patterns you might be missing. And the advanced techniques are quite useful. It's worth a look!
A long time ago, I greatly improved my game by working my way through Polgár's massive book of chess puzzles (IRL book), which again, helps you look for patterns and try to checkmate more quickly. An issue that a lot of newer players have is that they focus more on trying to clear the opponent's pieces than on winning the game, so any sort of "mate in 1/2/3" puzzle will help you in that regard. If you want to shell out the money to get it, it's a really nice-looking book as well.
Lichess also has a "training" mode, which presents you with situations from real-life chess games (mostly from lichess) and then asks you to consider the board and decide what move to make next. I'm honestly not great at these (~1400ish rating, depending on whether I've been drinking) and it can be incredibly frustrating if you're like me, but that said, it's good practice anyway.
Finally, playing games with people who give you honest feedback is very useful. This is why I frequently insist that my opponents (from here at least) take back moves and reconsider positions if I know they're doing something that is counterproductive. Most people won't do this, but I think it's a lot of fun and changes the dynamics.
And finally, as practice, try changing up your style. If you want an easy opponent, try a level 1 or 2 lichess AI. Try a game that's hyper defensive just to see how it goes. Then try a game where you accept all trades and see how it goes. Try playing a fully pawn-centric game and see how it goes. Try playing super-efficient "scientific" chess. Then try a game of "Romantic" chess (my personal favorite style, even though it often bites me in the ass).
After your games (if you have an account), run a computer analysis and click the "Learn from your mistakes" button. It's the same as the chess puzzles, except now you get to improve on your own game! What would have happened if I'd moved here instead of there? It's a fun little mini-game that you can play after any regular game.
And if you want to try something completely different, look into some non-standard game modes. Horde mode on lichess can really get you thinking about your pawn game. King of the Hill will get you thinking about how to improve your board control and positioning. Antichess encourages you to think about how your moves chain. Atomic mode forces you to consider all avenues of attack.
Almost all of this is available on lichess obviously, so it's all free.
I hope that helps!
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I was just thinking, I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm also at a point where I'm kind of stuck in developing my own skills any further. Perhaps I have reached my cognitive limits; I really don't know. I haven't had much luck pushing myself further beyond this point, and I've been at this point for a long while.
Once you understand the strategies well enough, it becomes a game of whoever makes the fewest mistakes wins, and I often find myself making mistakes carelessly, or worse, not even being able to identify my mistakes at all. It can be really frustrating after a game, to go into "Learn from your mistakes", and be presented with what you think is a perfectly valid move which the AI says is actually a mistake, and have absolutely no idea how to improve on it. I think this is the sort of case where playing with someone casually, someone who's better and who is willing to teach you (by pointing out mistakes during play), might be useful. I haven't been on that side of such an experience, though. Most people simply play to win.
Another thing that I haven't invested much time into is openings. I recognize that they are important for advanced play, but from the standpoint of someone who still has room to improve, I haven't wanted to focus my efforts here, because I think fundamentals are more important.
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I have a similar experience. I think it's oddly poetic that I actually notice a lot of my own mistakes directly after letting go of the piece, and sit there sweating and hoping that the other person just doesn't notice. It highlights that my true biggest mistake is deciding too quickly, which is a tough pill to swallow since I take so damn long to think about most things before making a decision. I've read so many books but I still do this. Against most people I do decently well, especially when I take longer than a minute to decide on a move. However, my brother either knows me very well or is just really good at this game, or both, because he sees all of my mistakes instantly and punishes them ruthlessly. it is not uncommon for him to place a hand over his face, sigh, point at the move I've just made and go "... why?" and when I explain why, he asks if I want him to explain why it's a mistake or just show me. whichever path I take is often infuriatingly eye opening. Still, he does do a wonderful job of explaining good alternatives, but the situations are often so unique to me I just don't know how to move forward.
Also, no, Boat, I'm not interested in a game. You've beaten me very soundly every time we've played, and as I've just explained, I'm not sure what I can learn. It wouldn't be a proper challenge for either of us (another reason why I like Go so much, which involves a handicap system that allows players of different skill levels to challenge each other on a relatively even field.)
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If you notice immediately after, there's nothing wrong with asking for a takeback.
Yeah, I know that feeling well. It's something like "am I really so stupid that I didn't see ______? when [whoever I'm playing against] saw it instantly?" Sometimes if I'm playing ranked, I'll just surrender in the middle of a game if I do something like that. Even worse, I'll go on tilt and my rank will nosedive. I'll just play game after game and immediately surrender the first time I make a mistake - even if it's like 10 moves in; I suppose that's my way of punishing myself for not being better.
And again, that's why I frequently insist people take back their moves. I don't know - maybe people don't like when I do this? I've only ever had a couple of instances where people refused on principle - they wanted to face the consequences of their mistakes. But I know how demoralizing it is when you make one mistake and then lose the entire game as a result of an imbalance that you can never recover from. So even if it's still likely I will win in the end, I like to at least make it more even along the way. I've wondered from time to time if that's just me being selfish, like a cat playing with a mouse a little bit longer, but I don't think so because I'm actually really proud of people who would otherwise have lost - who end up winning against me instead.
I understand why you don't want to play against me.
If you want to give it another shot at some point, I would recommend telling me who you are if/when you hop into a game. Often people join my games anonymously and I have no idea who they are. And since I don't know our history, I go all out in the first game, punish mistakes ruthlessly as you say, and it's likely the person I'm playing against doesn't have a very good time. But I have a reason for this. Since I don't know who I'm playing against, I need some gauge of how good that person is, so I can tune my responses in the likely second game. So then we have a second game, I use similar strategies and the person very likely loses despite my assistance, and then they've had enough and leave. We can skip that demoralizing first game entirely if I know who I'm playing against and have some idea of our history. As far as handicaps, if I'm playing against someone who I have a history with, I often take the opportunity to try out batshit crazy openings and see if I can recover from them. And if someone is willing to commit to a long series of games, sometimes I'll just make a drinking game out of it, and eventually I'll be buzzed or drunk enough that I'll lose regularly. Maybe you think that's a cheap win, but really, it's just for fun.
I don't post games here because I'm looking for a challenge. If I wanted a challenge, I'd play a ranked game on lichess, get my ass handed to me, and learn nothing as a result. I post games here because I like seeing people improve their game, and that's more enjoyable for me than winning. I don't know if you've ever had this experience against me, but when someone makes a really good effort, recovers from their mistakes, and then we make it to the end game... if it looks like I'll win anyway, I sometimes just offer a draw. That's my way of saying "good job". I don't need that "W" at the end; seeing someone improve their game in real time is more important to me.
Tell me if you think I'm just being selfish here. I'd really like some feedback from people I've played against.
I've never tried Go before. Perhaps I should give it a look so we can play a more evenly matched game?
There are those who will always see it as cat and mouse, though I do understand where you're coming from. I too hold to the idea of letting my mistakes hurt for the sake of learning (If the stove doesn't burn you, you'll never learn to avoid it when it's hot) however this is mostly for formal games. During a casual or learning game with a more skilled opponent, I suppose I could set it aside. A drinking game sounds interesting. Every time you capture a piece (excluding pawns) you take a shot.
And I'm glad you're interested in Go, though I should warn you it's a completely different animal. The pieces don't move once they're placed, and they're all the same. Plus advanced players regularly plan 30 or more moves ahead. I'm only a novice and I sit comfortably at around 10 moves forward. The only really transferable concept between chess and Go is that strategic position is more important than capturing pieces, and if you let that become your focus you will lose.
>>847598>There are those who will always see it as cat and mouse, though I do understand where you're coming from. I too hold to the idea of letting my mistakes hurt for the sake of learning (If the stove doesn't burn you, you'll never learn to avoid it when it's hot) however this is mostly for formal games. During a casual or learning game with a more skilled opponent, I suppose I could set it aside.
entirely up to you.>A drinking game sounds interesting. Every time you capture a piece (excluding pawns) you take a shot.
more or less! depends on what you're drinking I suppose. e.g. when you win a game, you down your drink
If you want to give that a shot at some point, let me know. As you can imagine, it's a bit of a time investment.
How far ahead do you typically think in chess?
I'll take a look at Go and at least see if I can learn the basics.
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Is something going on in here?
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way too tired to play or anything
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actually, 1 am pancakes
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How the fuck is this a loss? I'm done. done!
That sounds terribly unintuitive!
I'm glad I'm a chess-man
Yeah Go is a different game for sure. Chess is structured much better for my mind.
Fun fact, I have a hard time playing chess online, it's like I need the physical pieces in order to see the game correctly. I wonder if anyone else has that problem.
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I'll give it a look.
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Thorax is right. Go is about surrounding the most amount of unoccupied space, with as few stones as possible. White here owns 4 spaces, while Black owns 1. White wins. In fact, because Black only has 1 liberty, White owns the whole board. Such a small board though! I didn't know they made them smaller than 10x10.>>847605
I haven't counted, but typically I plan 3-6 full moves ahead, depending on how many likely responses I perceive. Extrapolating all the possible outcomes is very taxing on the mind.
Yeah I just went and filled in all the space... How does white own the whole board? That makes no sense.
I'm curious how that differs from Go, because it seems in Go, you might be able to plan your own moves, but planning for responses would be nigh impossible unless you're just going in a line and someone is mirroring you.
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That's a shame. I would love to show you a few tips and maybe play a teaching game with you. I hope you don't let how different the game is turn you off of it.
It's certainly radically different from chess, or any other chess-like game.
I think the reason it's valued as much as it is as a tool for developing strategic thinking is because the sheer number of possible moves that can exist from the opening of the game makes it nearly impossible for an average person to really plan ahead to the point that they don't overlook anything in any move. That means the game can have a massive
range of skill levels, and frequently requires one to strategize in a very very different way than in a chess like game, typically in a way that requires one to think more on a big-picture level.
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In Go, you can play anywhere, but some places are more sensible to play than others, so understanding the shape of the pieces on the board can give you clues as to where your opponent is likely to go. because the pieces don't move, it becomes easy to imagine a battle spreading across the board when you are able to force them to respond to you, and thus a natural progression of almost 30 moves becomes very easy to imagine. It is not always a straight line, but battles do tend to happen in a single direction sometimes.
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gif for context. The first five or so moves are largely unpredictable, but once the close battles begin it's very easy for advanced players to imagine how their opponent might respond
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My main issue with it is that it feels like needlessly-complicated Reversi, and the complexity doesn't seem to add anything to the game. I'd rather just play Reversi. It also lacks the Romantic element of chess. My major annoyance with it is that the AI on its lowest setting completely destroys me, and rather than continuing to get pissed off for no reason, I'm just not going to play it. Perhaps it is more enjoyable against players. I'll give it a shot and play with you some time if you'd like.>>847802
I can appreciate that. I know it took much longer for AI to master it than it did for chess.>>847803>>847804
That makes sense.
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I'm not sure what sort of romantic element you're talking about but it really is nothing like any other game. Mistaking if for Reversi based on the look of the pieces is understandable, but also a mistake that might cause your strategy to fall short. Go is nothing like anything else. It is a borders game, not an occupation game. You want to surround, not occupy, which I think no other game out there does. Think of it as a series of islands you can build in a vast ocean, and you get points for the amount of ocean surrounded by your islands. If you're up for it, I can show you a few good habits for beginners, and some traps to watch out for that the computer will likely employ, which should get you past at least the first two computer levels.
But I'll let you go for now, then. I would be interested in a game of chess if you're up for it. I go by Chamomile when I decide to keep a name. Most computers rate me at 1200.
>>847805>It also lacks the Romantic element of chess.
On the contrary, I think it has a massive romantic element to it, if you understand and appreciate the history and culture surrounding it. And, if you play it with a physical board and a bit of understanding of the philosophy behind east asian (especially Japanese) aesthetics, then it has a very
rich sort of romanticism behind it all.
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>>847806>I'm not sure what sort of romantic element you're talking about>>847807>On the contrary, I think it has a massive romantic element to it
I mean in contrast to my favorite style of chess, Romantic. big sweeping moves, bold attacks, risky sacrifices, and unconventional checkmates. I don't see that mirrored in Go, but maybe I'm just not seeing it.>>847806
Yeah that makes sense. I was approaching it like Reversi since on the surface, the mechanics are quite similar.>If you're up for it, I can show you a few good habits for beginners, and some traps to watch out for that the computer will likely employ, which should get you past at least the first two computer levels.
Sure, I'll take you up on that.>But I'll let you go for now, then. I would be interested in a game of chess if you're up for it.
sure! need to walk my dog real fast, or perhaps you meant later. thank you>I go by Chamomile when I decide to keep a name.
Ah yes, I thought that was you.>Most computers rate me at 1200.
Oh yeah? curious which one(s) since I haven't played against a computer that provided me with a rating. Every site and system is a bit different depending on the makeup of the playerbase.>>847807>>847808
That does sound nice. I have a very nice wooden chess and backgammon set that I pull out for similar occasions.
>>847818>I mean in contrast to my favorite style of chess, Romantic. big sweeping moves, bold attacks, risky sacrifices, and unconventional checkmates. I don't see that mirrored in Go, but maybe I'm just not seeing it.
Ah, you see that's the difference between a western aesthetic sensibility and an Asian one.
Playing Go is considered just as much an art and a performance as it is a skill in Japan and other parts of Asia where it goes by other names, often times it can be considered more akin to a conversation, or an exercise in a kind of poetry via action. In east asian aesthetic sensibilities, intense emotion is communicated subtly, a lot of the aesthetics revolve around creating an emotional atmosphere. In a game of go, those intense emotions are ultimately revelatory over the course of a game rather than in the immediate. More like, as time moves on, the meaning of each move and what the players are communicating to each other become more apparent and pretty intense over the course of the game as one moves from opening game to midgame and then into end game. Once you can wrap your head around long term strategy in go, then individual moves take on whole new meanings, and that's when moves not only become big sweeping bold moves and attacks as stakes raise over time, but they also become plot twist that change the meanings of what was (thought) to be communicated by past moves.
This is why Go actually makes for great drama in Japanese film, especially old samurai films, and even some anime. It might not seem apparent on the surface because of how subtle it is, but it *can* be intensely emotional and quite romantic ... if you understand the language to it.
And on a related tangent, is it not a reflection of the fundamentally big picture nature of the game when mathematically speaking, it is certainly certainly possible that no two games of Go ever played have ever been played identically? There is no computer on earth that can store all the various possible Go endgames.
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great and all, but it's the difference between making a piece of art with grains of sand vs the stroke of a paint brush. I'm not saying you can't use sand if you want to, but I'd prefer a paintbrush.>And on a related tangent, is it not a reflection of the fundamentally big picture nature of the game when mathematically speaking, it is certainly certainly possible that no two games of Go ever played have ever been played identically? There is no computer on earth that can store all the various possible Go endgames.
I think that's more a reflection of the size of the board and the mechanism of placement, but I get what you mean.
I mean, there is a certain romantic element to the fact that when your done playing, it is likely you and your opponent have played out a game that no one else has played. >That sounds great and all, but it's the difference between making a piece of art with grains of sand vs the stroke of a paint brush. I'm not saying you can't use sand if you want to, but I'd prefer a paintbrush.
I think one of the things that lets Go serve as a great metaphor for character relationships that it has in Japanese films and dramas and such is how it's sort of a reminder that action and conflict is all the more interesting if the meaning in the action is established first.
So like, in a game of go, each stage has a distinctive stage, were early game set ups of long term strategies is akin to establishing and developing the character of both sides of a conflict in a drama so that when they *do* get to the big dramatic romantic parts of the story, a context is established that gives an extra layer of meaning to the exchange when it does become about big gambles and bold moves.
if you really want to understand the emotional aspect of Go, there is an entire anime dedicated to it, called "Hikaru no Go" which also showcases many beginner mistakes and techniques as young Hikaru learns to play from a master.
It's not a very popular anime though, so I'll let you judge it for yourself if you want. I did personally enjoy it, but that could be attributed to curiosity and familiarity.
I'm building an image right now of common things to look for in new games.
I'll take your word for it, but I have to say that sounds an awful lot like chess.>I mean, there is a certain romantic element to the fact that when your done playing, it is likely you and your opponent have played out a game that no one else has played.
Yeah, it's like chess in that way, but it is ultimately like communicating it in a different language that gives the experience a quite different flavor.
If a game of chess is like a movie, then a game of go is like a miniseries with a bunch of related subplots.
That's an interesting concept for an anime.
That's a nice analogy.
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alright, here it is. These are very good traps and techniques for a beginner to know. Keep these in mind and you should be able to defeat the first level computer. let me know if there's anything you don't understand
oh. A much better resource would be https://online-go.com/learn-to-play-go/
as it runs you through the basic rules and concepts before allowing you to play a game, and you can play against different ranked computers on different standard board sizes. I recommend a 13x13 board if you're new, or if that's too daunting, a 9x9 board. Smaller than 9x9 is purely for training.
actually wait, don't do that. Their weakest AI is 8k, which even I can't beat. hmm... it would be best to download a software. A good AI software is http://www.smart-games.com/manyfaces.html
And if you get interested, an SGF editor will allow you to save games and send the .sgf file to someone who can comment on their editor and send it back with advice in different moves.
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'the hell does this mean?
oh, don't play a ranked game yet. I can explain the time limits if you want but you should play without them if it will let you.
Kyu and Dan are the amateur and Professional Rating systems. A beginner starts at 30Kyu, and the numbers go down as they become more advanced. After a player surpasses 1Kyu, they may take on a Professional Rank of 1Dan, and they will increase up to 9 Dan. 10 Dan is a rank, but that's a grandmaster, and very few have ever existed.
Play with Atari indicated until you learn to recognize it on your own.
Unrandomize the computer for now.
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Holy shit I won a game. It's hard to explain just how furious this game makes me.
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It's not that I don't like it. I have anger issues, and this game just brings it out like nothing else I've encountered lately. I just need to stop playing before I break something.
Thanks for explaining the game to me!
Sure, sounds good. Maybe we can try Go some time as well. Thanks again
I won a ranked game. My opponent and I both made several blunders but I pulled through in the end. Despite the mistakes I felt pretty good about it. If you want to take a look at the game:https://lichess.org/3N2GGD0vq8Ec>unrelated video
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seemed like the thing to do
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ah, and I slept through it. I'd be up for a game with you if you're still interested
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yeah I'm not doing that if I can just play free. ugh, I hate openings. I never learned how subtly the opening affects the game so I just go with what feels right and get creative later. usually seems to work.
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It's free even if you make an account. you're doing fine <3
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Nice game. I feel so silly for that blunder at the end, but it was kind of you to offer the draw.https://lichess.org/pU4Q6mIG
good game! I had quite a few blunders myself. Aside from my queen loss, I think the one that really got me was move 18. I completely forgot en passant
was a thing.
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I think you played very well.
Wait. How can you play as well as you do and not remember en passant?
Clearly you have raw talent.
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Sometimes a move is so bold and unexpected that you forget to consider countering it. It's like when someone moves a piece to threaten you, and you don't even realize you can just take the piece to deal with the threat. Or when you make a move and then immediately realize "oops, that was dumb..." and the person you're playing against doesn't realize that you did anything wrong.
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Back when I was good (meaning I kicked butt among all the idiots I played with) I once clashed with a neighbor's king dad, and ended up with a situation where it looked like he was going to crush me until I stared at it long enough to realize I could just move my king in front of his pawn to prevent its graduation.
Everyone saw it but me and he was so sure he had me and so was I until I FINALLY saw the obvious.
So I remained the best for a while longer, until I met some guys who were pretty good and they mopped up with me real quick. I couldn't even learn anything from them, they squashed me so fast.
btw I have some ideas for our next clash. Should keep you entertained I hope.
seems like a common progression!>btw I have some ideas for our next clash. Should keep you entertained I hope.
I'd be up for that :d
need about 15 min
here. it should let you play as a Guest. go to room 2http://www.flyordie.com/go/
I'll send you a challenge from there.
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sorry; that first one seemed ok minus the time issue
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wonderful games. I've saved the last two log files if you want to look them over again. They're in standard sgf format. any SGF editor will be able to read them
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depends on what you're comparing to. Would you like to play a game?