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Obesity is contagious by the fecal-oral route in germ-free mice. 
 Ridaura, Vanessa K., et al. "Gut microbiota from twins discordant for obesity modulate metabolism in mice." Science 341.6150 (2013). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3829625/
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! This claim about microbio and obesity is disputed.
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I find it nice to think there is some philosophical truth about it.
µbut it's not that people can blame obesity on gut bacteria alone.
Is there any source where I can find the theory is generally not accepted?
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The truth is probably that a lot of factors effect metabolism, which in turn effects how likely one is to become obese under certain diet/excersize patterns.
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I do believe people each have their own metabolism and that there's people who can eat a lot and barely exercise and stay fine and people who put on weight by eating a single sundae.
I also think people are very individual about their drives and vices. some people are addicted to fast food, some have no issues sticking to a raw vegan diet and enjoying that.
I know there's a theory that your gut flora determines what you like and crave when it comes to food.
That's of course not saying that if you keep up proper discipline and a drive to stick to a diet, it won't be effective.
You can't only blame your body on being overweight.
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And conversley you can't solely blame a lack of discipline for being overwheight or obese.
Afterall, it's not like anyone is born knowing what their limits and vulnerabilities even are in the first place, nor does anyone have a choice in those parts or aspects of personality and preferences rooted in innate biology, nor is there rational justification to assume someone who is obese isn't trying not to be obese.
>>1089834>And conversley you can't solely blame a lack of discipline for being overwheight or obese.
Not solely, but after you're aware of your vices and addictions, you have choices to make. Regardless of whether your preferences are ingrained in you, you can act against them. That's what being healthy is, a lot of the time, is acting against one's urges
We don't only do what would feel good, all of the time. At least, I hope not
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In the end it's kind of balancing the risks you take and the rewards you can get.
To some level, I do feel people must respect that as well.
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My thoughts in the matter, and that may be more something for /townhall/, but anyway.
If you're overweight and you are ordering pizza twice per week, then that's a major contribution to your health issues. You shouldn't blame metabolism on your overweight.
On the flip side, if you see a person who is overweight, you shouldn't directly call them out on sitting on the couch every night stuffing their face with pizza and cheetos. You likely don't know them and while they may make mistakes in diet and exercise schedule, you're not the one with the knowledge to pass judgement on it.
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>literally getting fat from eating ass
>>1089864>why does that entitle you to shame them for it?
Playing Devil's Advocate, I'd say that shaming fat people causes people to alter their behavior in such a way that a lower percentage of the population is unhealthily fat.
No longer playing Devil's Advocate, I'm leaning toward the conclusion that social stigma probably doesn't work very well as a lever for addressing the obesity epidemic. I think addressing the gut microbiome and environmental contaminants (https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-part-iii-environmental-contaminants/
) would be more fruitful. One thing that seems highly likely is that highly processed 'junk food' is obesogenic and should be replaced with home-cooked whole foods as much as possible.
See also https://www.LessWrong.com/posts/895quRDaK6gR2rM82/diseased-thinking-dissolving-questions-about-disease
:>So here, at last, is a rule for which diseases we offer sympathy, and which we offer condemnation: if giving condemnation instead of sympathy decreases the incidence of the disease enough to be worth the hurt feelings, condemn; otherwise, sympathize. ...>>The question "Do the obese deserve our sympathy or our condemnation," then, is asking whether condemnation is such a useful treatment for obesity that its utility outweights the disutility of hurting obese people's feelings
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I was making a joke with the Twitter thing lol. But they aren't well-proven.
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we have many, many rats in nyc, but we have lower obesity than most of the usa, and even a lot of europe
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we did have a terrible flood lately, that caused a lot of water in the subway!!
...i wouldn't go in that water though. it is full of disease.
>>1089880>Playing Devil's Advocate, I'd say that shaming fat people causes people to alter their behavior in such a way that a lower percentage of the population is unhealthily fat.
To respond to that, no it doesn't change behaviors, especially if someone is in the middle
of trying to lose wheight. Then its just discouraging. It doesn't help anyone to shame rhem for not having a god-like speed, shaming people for not being able to do what is literally impossible pushes people to quit or, if their problems are related to something like clinical depression, then to suicide. Positive reinforcement works much better than negative reinforcement.
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I know for example that if I google "vaccines and autism", I am pelted with articles that it is thoroughly disproven.
If I google gut bacteria and obesity, it's mostly neutral articles on it.>>1089880>>1089891
If I were really overweight and with friends or simply out in public and peoples started being an ass to me aboyt being fat, I'd just stop going out in public or going out with my friends and stay home and probably stuff myself to fill yet another empty void. If I'd feel shame, I'd probably resort to my addiction to cope.
Personally, I feel better promotion of healthy habits would be a more successful approach. Dieticians aren't incredibly cheap. Technically you can get cheap healthy food if you stick to vegetables, but you still have to convince people you can really make it work. To me, the better recipes still take time to cook and to get all ingredients it can be costly.
For example, Hello Fresh here delivers boxes of fresh ingredients with dishes that are good and are measured to be pretty healthy. But i don't look forward to paying 5O euros for 3 meals for myself alone.
Gyms are also pretty expensive, aside from taking time on its own to even get there. Now if more work places would offer a membership in their benefits packet and allow you to stop earlier if in exchange you go to the gym, it might be a good opportunity to go there.
Also, fitness programs being available to people who may be unemployed might help fight the obesity rates.
Fitness is mostly about motivation, as you can technically do it for free. But exercising does come with its list of its physical discomforts, especially when you're overweight, and takes some patience before you even see the positive results.
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>>1089835>We don't only do what would feel good, all of the time.
That is incorrect. You should always do what feels good.
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I agree that it is counterproductive to fat-shame people who are trying to lose weight. Trying to steelman the argument for fat-shaming, I'd guess that (1) the shaming should focus on unhealthy actions such as eating obesogenic food and (2) it might work better as deterrence (for those who aren't already obese but are at risk of becoming obese) than rehabilitation.
Personally, I think that even this stronger form of the argument fails. Fat-shaming has been present to a large enough degree in America but hasn't prevented the obesity epidemic. I guess there's the question of whether the obesity epidemic would be even worse without fat-shaming, but I'd guess not, because people already know from their doctors that being obese is very unhealthy.
We already have evidence that imbalances in the gut microbiome can cause obesity (RCTs in rodents and less rigorous evidence in humans), so fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) looks like a promising direction that will hopefully show good results in clinical trials in the near future. The contaminant theory of obesity (https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-part-iii-environmental-contaminants/
) also looks intriguing.
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>>1089978> I'd guess that (1) the shaming should focus on unhealthy actions such as eating obesogenic food
As I said earlier, one should never assume diet/exercise habits based on a person's appearance.
Aside from that, there's also the presing question at what level people can label healthy and unhealthy food and how to deal with it in society.
aside from shaming people we can press to add disincentives on unhealthy food, like raising the price or outright banning some food items, but that will always run into an aspect of freedom. in particular non-fat people might also want to enjoy fatty food without repercussion.
cigarettes have by now been pelted with excessive campaigns to warn about the health issues they cause and the price for a pack of cigarettes has been push up all the time. Maybe the same can be done for obesity.
But as mentioned, it will be harder to draw the line between unhealthy food and healthy food.
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>>1089979>As I said earlier, one should never assume diet/exercise habits based on a person's appearance.
Oh yeah, what I meant was that shaming would be focused on people being caught red-handed eating Twinkies, etc.>Aside from that, there's also the presing question at what level people can label healthy and unhealthy food
And indeed, the US government has previously and incorrectly demonized saturated fats.
I think there is a great deal of evidence and widespread agreement that 'junk food' is unhealthy and that unprocessed or minimally processed 'whole foods' are generally healthier than highly processed foods. How to legally characterize it is a difficult question, though. > we can press to add disincentives on unhealthy food, like raising the price
This seems like a good idea. I've heard that some people buy unhealthy foods because it is cheaper than healthy food. Adding a tax on unhealthy food would change that.
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>>1089990> I've heard that some people buy unhealthy foods because it is cheaper than healthy food. Adding a tax on unhealthy food would change that.
Personally I'd prefer that there is some cheapening of healthy food as some meals are pretty expensive.> Oh yeah, what I meant was that shaming would be focused on people being caught red-handed eating Twinkies, etc.
suppose you manage to get a friend out to go for pizza or sandwiches or whatever.
A random stranger pops up at your table and addresses your friend "Should you be eating that grease you fat disgusting slobbering pig? Oink oink oink"
Would you side with the guy and turn on your friend?
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Also, and I will probably be very stupid here> And indeed, the US government has previously and incorrectly demonized saturated fats.
to my understanding, carbs are worse than fat, which makes it "ironically" that vegetables and fruits and stuff like bread are more dangerous than grease and meat products.
Are we at that strange place where having a BLT sandwich:
2 slices of wholewheat bread
a bit of lettuce
a slice or 2 of tomato
Crispy bacon, dripping in salted butter
A royal scoop of mayo
that we have to say the bacon/mayo is probably the healthiest thing in there?
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>>1090007>Would you side with the guy and turn on your friend?
Personally I don't support fat-shaming -- I was just trying to steelman the case for it, for the sake of argument.>A random stranger pops up at your table and addresses your friend "Should you be eating that grease you fat disgusting slobbering pig? Oink oink oink"
Harassing individuals IRL like that is of course inappropriate. >>1090013> carbs are worse than fat
Depends on the type of carbs. Foods with a high glycemic index are generally unhealthy, as are highly processed foods. Dietary fiber is technically a carbohydrate but it is healthy, especially since Western diets are generally deficient in dietary fiber. Whole fruits and vegetables usually contain significant amounts of dietary fiber. Bacon has the complication of nitrates/nitrites. Commercially prepared mayo often has unhealthy oils such soybean oil with a high ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids.
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In some cases, FMT from lean individuals can cure obesity just like FMT from obese individuals can cause it.