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 No.1080199[Last 50 Posts]

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i heard, one of the bad shooters in the news lately, may have been a my little pony fan.

the fedex shooter person... apparently, he wrote on facebook before the attack, that:

"I hope I can be with applejack in the afterlife, my life has no meaning without her"

The New York Post, which is... a tabloid newspaper, even reported that "bronies" are a group with far right tendencies. And the New York Post is, already, a very, very right leaning institution, which wouldn't say that casually.

i never liked the term "bronies." i like to think, i like ponies, and do not wish to be associated with bronies.

i am scared that everyone thinks of us as really bad things.


Never liked the term nor wish to be associated with people like this either. It's something I watched for a while. Not my identity.


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i like ponies, i think they are cute, and i love cute stuff

but i think, the community may have earned its poor reputation


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Right, the reputation of the "community" does not seem that important.
As anon said it is a kid's show that at some point we all gravitated to and then left behind or are like me that we just stayed around for some of the people on these sites.

You can like ponies and cute things without having to hitch your wagon to a dumpster fire.

The shitstain was a mentally unwell ex-employee that had already had his firearms confiscated and rather than an heroing himself he just fucking had to lash out at other people and then paint the asphalt with his brain.

I am well aware of how uncharacteristic hostile I am being.


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it's okay to be frustrated, dawn


it is frustrating, and it is fair to feel such

it is somewhat sad to me, that this person so loved applejack, but could not extract from his heart any goodness from that love


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I don't think so.
I think he had an unhealthy obsession with a fictional character and internet culture and his mental state let it fester and rot away at him.


I doubt the guy just thought AJ was a cool or nice character. Someone who says their life 'has no meaning' without an entirely fictional character has unhealthy obsessions.


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unhealthy... obsession. that term sort of scares me. how ... does one end up obsessed. am i obsessed?


Does your life have meaning beyond ponies?

I mean having passion for something is good... Being obcessed about, say, football is what leads someone to become a great football player.

If you have passions or 'obcessions' about things that's okay.

AJ isn't real though. She's inaction able, unobtainable, she can't return affection nor can that obsession be turned toward something productive. It kind of as unhealthy as obcessing about an ex or someone you can't have.

Wanting to emulate a character is okay I suppose. That's achievable. This guy clearly didn't actually emulate AJ. I'm not sure what else he did in life, but I don't recall AJ ever shooting someone.

It's why I've always found the whole waifu thing weird...


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An obsession is just an addiction by another name.

Like >>1080209 asked.


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i think so! i mean, yes. i love my family, and try to do my best at work. i like to read and study on friendship, and politics, and economics, and history, and stuff

i like... tea


You aren't English so the tea thing is fine.

Also, you work too hard.


Moony, hon, don't we have a rule against this kind of thread on the site?

And secondly: You know better than to group people by labels like that. Demographics are not what's important here, what's important is the individual and their choices as a person

What any adult gets from the media they consume is their responsibility, and their actions are their own


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i don't want to work so hard, i am tired :c my head hurts. i feel sick.

we should have tea c:

what did i do? is this thread bad?

i do not understand... didn't many of our community members choose to call ourselves, bronies? i do not like that title though


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Moony, what have I been telling you for AGES? It's like no one ever listens to me.
It is true however that a huge part of the "brony" people are into right-wing idiologies, and are extremists in nature. Remember the whole idea of even BEING a brony spawned from 4chan in the first place: A pretty right-wing place.
I told you before that bronies are a thing that shouldn't exist, and this event further proves it.

Yes, bronies are THAT bad, and maybe worse.


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>Moony, hon, don't we have a rule against this kind of thread on the site?
Huh? Which rule?


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>i never liked the term "bronies."
Me either.  It always struck me as quite cringey, tbh IMHO.


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Should I start looking for jobs in NYC so you can have some help?


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ohhh, is it politics? is it because this might be political? i hope nobody will be offended, that is not my intention, to make things political


You're probably fine then.

Not sure how this would be a rule breaking thread.


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Does it matter if people choose to label themselves? I think that's just a way to take cover. To hide from one's individual responsibility or perhaps paint it over. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own actions, and that is what matters

You are not anyone else, and no one else is you. No matter what you like, no matter what they like, we all carry the burden of our own actions, and no one else should for us


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...aw :c i don't think brony idea is all bad, or anything. i do not mean to imply anything like that

:c ok... but i am going to be careful

...aw dawn friend, you are too kind. i should be doing that for you, maybe! but i... will be okay.

my biggest problem is, has, and always will be, myself

poor bronies... i just like to think of myself as pony fan, and the plural as ponies! not in, literal sense though, unless anyone... is actually pony. inw hich case, woah!

but, what about we, as a representative of a group of people? though, i wish i would not be a representative of, say, East Asians, the way others perceive me matters, and has consequence, even if don't want it to

as such, do i not have a duty, to other East Asians, to be a responsible representative? we may not get to choose this duty, but we still have it, and the way others act will impact how everyone else sees us, yes?

i understand... the individual aspect, but it is hard for me to think in ... an individualist manner. it is just not... what i am used to, maybe

though, i do think it is very important we understand each person as an individual, more than anything else, the responsibility we have to each other must also exist  


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>do i not have a duty, to other East Asians, to be a responsible representative?

I don't think you have that responsibility, frankly, no

Because if you have that responsibility, so do all the people in your demographic who could give two shits less about what that entails

So why try to take responsibility for anything but yourself? The only actions you can control are your own, and you can't even directly control how people perceive you.

Trying to win a game of public favor is madness. Just being a generally good person where you can is all that should really matter


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>...aw :c i don't think brony idea is all bad, or anything. i do not mean to imply anything like that
But it is. And that's the sad reality.
Why do you think I always tell you this place should move on and forget the pony motif?


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I don't think you'd be passing any logic courses, in all honesty, Iara. What measure are we using to determine "badness", here? Because I bet whatever metric you're using, no matter how arbitrary or trivial, I can find examples of more "good" done than "bad" from a statistical and practical standpoint


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Hey now, no matter what I say you will disagree. Why even bother?


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Try saying that you changed your mind and you like ponies now!  xDDD


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I asked for substance to your argument, and you denied, then accused me of being unwilling to listen before I even had the chance to listen. That hardly seems fair. I don't think you're versed in proper debate etiquette, either


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Come on Chain, I think you know that wouldn't make me happy. I want Iara to think about the flaws in her reasoning, not to pretend she likes things that she doesn't


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It was a joke, just a little friendly banter with Iara.


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My mistake, it's hard to tell over text


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There was literally an attempt at a mass shooting by an environmentalist who was concerned about the danger to squirrels and was going to kill people in order to supposedly protect America's squirrels. I'm not making that up. Unfortunately given the state of America's general culture of violence and concurrent gun culture, these sorts of events are going to keep happening until the society changes. The specific triggers of what motivates a depraved criminal will vary considerably and will often not make that much sense, even in their own mind.

I would hate for us to attribute collective responsibility to an entire group of millions of people with a shared identity and interests just because of a media association. If that were the case, I mean, my God... as somebody who's bisexual and non-binary, the U.S. media already assumes that I'm a fetisist prostitute, drug abuser, sex crazed pervert, and goodness knows what else. All of that is due to horrid group stereotyping based on terrible actions of a few fringe criminals.

Stereotypes and the prejudices surrounding them are inherently based on logical fallacies and shouldn't ever be accepted as factual. Ever. Period.

To be honest, there's also a power dynamic thing going on. A great many white individuals have killed POC due to white supremacy. Yet we as Americans don't stereotype white peoples as dangerous, do we? Straight men have sexually assaulted countless women. And yet nothing is brought up against straight men? Football hooligans have caused all varieties of destruction. Yet football is still lionized? Many U.S. Christians have systemically worked to hurt non-Christian religious minorities to the point of outright murder... is there any stereotype about the broader collective based on those  actions? No.

"Bronies" and other counterculture communities seen, correctly in number terms, as fringe groups make for easy targets of scorn. Same thing with "furries". With "Whovians". With "Trekkies". With LARPers. It goes on.

Gentle mockery and even hard-edged satire is fine, but really the broader society needs to move on from stereotyping. Collective moral blame and shame, forcing individuals to feel guilt and hate themselves via mere association, sets things culturally down a dark path. We shouldn't keep following it.


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This is thoughtful and much appreciated


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This is the internet. No one ever changes their mind. Debates are pointless.
I have better things to do with my time than wasting it typing long paragraphs about things I know you will not care about.
I only care "debating" with close friends, who I know I have some sway with or who I am aware will care about what I say. But randos online? Pointless. No one ever changes their mind online, and it's all about picking sides and sticking to them through.


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>Straight men have sexually assaulted countless women. And yet nothing is brought up against straight men?
There was the whole "MeToo" thing, but this is moving into /townhall/ territory fast so I'm going to stop here in regards to that.

>I would hate for us to attribute collective responsibility to an entire group of millions of people with a shared identity and interests just because of a media association.
>Collective moral blame and shame, forcing individuals to feel guilt and hate themselves via mere association, sets things culturally down a dark path. We shouldn't keep following it.
Agree 100% with that.


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I've sometimes changed my mind on things based on what I read on the Internet!  


>There was the whole "MeToo" thing, but this is moving into /townhall/ territory fast so I'm going to stop here in regards to that.
MeToo was to denounce high-ranking men tho. Not the common folk.


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because to do otherwise, is selfish... right? if we all only cared about ourselves, and our personal responsibilities to ourselves, but not to others, isn't this bad?

all for one, and one for all? we can control our actions, yes, but should consider how those actions affect others. i am not suggesting we judge others by their group, but i am saying, others will judge us by ours, and we cannot control that... only we can take responsibility for ourselves, to represent well, those we care about

... i like ponies still... :c

i think this makes a lot of sense, psuedofox. stereotypes that are used to blame others, this is not a good thing, surely


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I swear that I'm not making up the squirrels thing. This was something like a decade ago, but I recall clearly my entire workplace talking about the sheer weirdness of somebody's love of animals making them into a mass shooter. I'll try to look up details if they're requested.

To look inward, I mean... I love foxes. I hate with a seething passion that fox hunting still occurs in certain parts of the world. I can imagine an alternate me in an alternate world being driven by highly terrible and specific circumstances to do something rash. What if this mirror universe me was homeless and orphaned? Subject to even worse prejudice throughout their life? Hard to say.

Even if we were talking about Hitler, one has to ask... would Hitler have been Hitler if his mother hadn't died of tragic and sudden cancer when he was a small child and utterly destroyed his sense of right versus wrong, causing his personality to violently shift away from the Mister Rogers like niceness of his mother over to the cruel militarist nationalism of his friends? What if? We can say for sure?

'Evil' by itself is just a word. Behind it is a lot of complexity. Likely a lot of pain. Likely some genuine hatred as well. Life is complicated.


>because to do otherwise, is selfish
I think the argument wasn't "We don't have any responsibility to other people" but rather "We don't have any extra responsibility to our own ethnic group over and above our responsibility to humankind in general".


Iara, we are friends! I'm asking you this stuff because I care about you! If you were some random person, I wouldn't be bothered either! Goodness, I thought we were pretty close, personally

>all for one, and one for all?

Let me posit a question: What if someone doesn't want to be in it for all? Will you force them?


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i think this sounds right, but it is hard to reconcile with my upbringing...

we are generally taught, i think, that we should try our best to be well behaved, and be good representatives, or we will be judged for this by our white peers in school and business, and bring shame to our community. so much so that parents with bad children are frequently ostracized by the larger East Asian community here

i do not approve of the ostracization, but i think to be afraid, maybe, that we may not make a good impression is important too, and helps to keep the community safe?


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does one person have the power to label everyone of a specific interest as a terrible person? i don't believe so

this was one deeply unstable person who happened to love ponies to an unhealthy level. is that enough to derail 11 years of ponies and bronies doing awesome things and having fun watching the show, enjoying the comics, and enjoying the cons and websites?

i don't think so.

some assholes will use this as a means to troll bronies, but given that there have been a lot of good things, good people, and many years under the belt of the fandom, i'd ignore those who choose to bash it.

one person did an evil thing, i'm not gonna let them do another evil thing and take away my enjoyment of the show or community because i "fear backlash"


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no, but that i posit that this is selfish, is it not?


Also yeah, to be clear: I personally believe I have responsibility to general humanity.

But if someone wants to look to me as a healthy representative of the transgender and gay demographics? What a blunder that is!

I behave as myself, and what people glean from that isn't of concern to me


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In fairness, while 'debates' are one thing, 'discussions' are another. The internet is frankly a great resource for learning about additional factual information that's helpful. It also assists with finding out about perspectives that one genuinely didn't even know existed.

Of course, the odds of talking somebody out of a passion are slim. This is true both online and offline. I still think online commenting (as distinct from formal, emotional 'debate') is pretty nice.

I think you and I might likely disagree about the practical strength, size, and affects of the 'Me Too movement', but then, yes, that would be a highly political discussion not appropriate for here. Suffice to say that in my personal opinion, the movement is sort of like trying to light a bonfire in the middle of a hurricane in terms of social improvement versus current and ongoing resistance.

It's hard for me not to see these things personally. They just feel that way. For sure.

In my own life, when I really 'came out' to my parents about different things, they surprised me by outright asking my counselor in front of me questions of the likes of 'so, does this make them dangerous' and like... in general, it just plain hurts to be of particular identities due to being born a certain way yet have to live in a social stereotype straightjacket.


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As selfish as the concept of self-care on a fundamental level, I'd argue. Better to be yourself and selfish than to be part of a cause that makes your itty bitty lifespan worse

I didn't sign up to be gay, or transgender, or like the stuff I like, I just do

Nobody elected me for shit, I didn't run for shit, and I act like it

Except for my capacity as a moderator, of course


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>helps to keep the community safe?
I guess I have to agree.  The Asian-American community has been quite successful in America, comparing to other racial-minority groups, and I think the cultural aspects that you mention is a large ingredient of that success.  


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There's a fundamental difference between selfishness and practicality, though?

I'm not a doctor. Were you and I in some situation where you required immediate medical attention, I'd be unable to give it. If for whatever reason I went for help but couldn't physically do so quickly enough, then it would be as if I wasn't even there in the first place.

Wouldn't be selfishness if you asked me about this for me to simply go "I'm sorry. It cannot be helped.", would it?

In the case of social stereotyping, one can argue that I can't, as an individual, save the world. I can try to improve my life and the lives of others around me. Yet that's it. I can't alter other peoples' ironclad beliefs. I can chip away, but that's all.


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But it does not matter whether or not we signed up for anything, no? The reality is, no matter how much we pretend we are not, each of us is a representative towards others of our group, be that Asians, Americans, europeans, pony fans, transgenders, or otherwise

We can ignore it... but it exists, and others can, and shall, see us as such... do we not owe it then to ourselves and others to be good representatives?

How does one differentiate between a harmful stereotype, and a useful description? For example, let us say, psychopathic people do not feel empathy - is this a stereotype? Or is that what defines what a psychopathic person is? (You check that box, before you are identified as such). Does... it not help society to understand things in this way?

What about other groups, like "the children" ... is it not possible to justify many evils by eliminating descriptors by calling them stereotypes? i wonder if i am making some thought mistakes and misunderstanding


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This is still the internet tho. Arguments are dumb.
One person does nothing... But several?
Remember all the pedophiles? All the racists? All the rightmongers? Far too many.
This is as doomed as "weaboos".
I still think online discussions are lame. Nothing ever changes.


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if it's such a concern, perhaps that means its more integral to be a positive role model then, to show that who they are doesn't define you

i like ponies, but i'm not a racist, nor am i a pedo, nor am i some extremist right wing nutjob

i consider myself a brony, but i don't consider myself any of those things

and if people are going to generalize me because of them, then that's their fucking issue, not mine. i don't have the time and patience to placate the fleeting and histrionic nature of others.


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>We can ignore it... but it exists, and others can, and shall, see us as such... do we not owe it then to ourselves and others to be good representatives?

Eh, like I already said: no. We should be good people, but only if we're actually good people

The problem with unfair perception is an issue with how the human mind parses social responsibility, and it ain't my job to fix human biology either

I'll continue being good to people, and if that's not enough, it's not enough! Simple as that

Chain and I can both attest to having our minds changed by internet arguments. Isn't that a change? Why are you ignoring counter evidence to your claim?

And, you say arguments are dumb, but you keep making them regardless, while simultaneously shutting out criticism


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This logic seems false to me in terms of the actual reality in American society.

Take American Jews. The Jewish community here has had over two hundred years of unbroken social investment and engagement: everything from Jewish film stars creating excellent entertainment from Jewish scientists drastically increasing the understanding the natural world, to the point of the community's altruism likely saving the lives of countless non-Jews. All of this is clear-cut.

Has this ended anti-Semitism in America? No. In fact, hatred of Jews appears to have actively gotten worse over the past two decades in particular.

Hatred exists for multiple reasons. Social stereotyping is inherently illogical and emotional, thus it responds in a sloppy way to real-life actions by the marginalized people subject to them. It would be interesting if members of a certain group could self-police and set up a kind of anti-stereotype through hard work... efforts to decrease hatred to nonexistence... but that doesn't happen.


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...i am afraid, i do not understand the analogy. i am saying, if you were a doctor, and identifiable as such, and you put your hands up and walked away because the injured person had no insurance, you will color the expectations of others towards the profession of doctors, as a doctor yourself. And that to do otherwise, because it is convenient, is selfishness, even outside of the context of the untreated injured person

...but i don't understand. Isn't it better if we are all trying to be good people, even if we "are not" good people? ...not that i believe in bad people necessarily...

Being good to people is good, of course... but i worry if that is too simple.

i change my mind often, but that is because, i have not much mind to begin with!


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Why call yourself a "brony" tho if it has such negative connotations? Wouldn't it be easier to drop the label, and say you enjoy ponies and are a fan of them? Without labels.
I am just saying what I think. But I won't elaborate if I know it will generate some argument. I don't like ping-pongs.
I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.


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Oh shoot, I didn't recognize you posting that pony lol. I now know who you are.
But my point still stands. Arguments online are still dumb.


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>One person does nothing... But several?
You have to look at it per capita.  E.g., 6 people died of rare blood clots after taking the J&J vaccine, but that's out of 6.8 million, a tiny percentage.


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>Why call yourself a "brony" tho if it has such negative connotations? Wouldn't it be easier to drop the label, and say you enjoy ponies and are a fan of them? Without labels.

This applies to every single label that most of us in this place have had applied to ourselves. Right? Can't you see that?

"Transgender" makes people think of a sex-crazed serial killer a la 'The Silence of the Lambs'. "Gay" makes them think of a half-naked teenager taking drugs in a nightclub alleyway with piercings stuck to his fishnet shirt. "Furry" makes them think of someone in a Disney style suit wearing a gigantic diaper filled with urine and feces. "Autistic" makes them think of an obese woman in mismatched clothes transported in the back of a public bus openly drooling on herself.

Categories and labels are meant from the first place to serve people. People aren't made for categories and labels. Hatred exists and stereotypes exist, unfortunately, and whatever words you use... the prejudices will still follow.


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On a fundamental level, it's about how we tackle the inherent unfairness of human tribalism.

A person does something bad, and there are two likely options:

A) People hold that person responsible

B) People hold that person and their associated groups responsible

Choice A) is done by reasonable people, B) is not (unless the associated group's manifesto claims to be about the bad thing that was committed, obviously)

How do I deal with option B) people? Recognizing they're unreasonable, and moving on in life

No matter how people feel about my demographics, I'm going to keep being me, so I don't see the need to pander to irrational persons who wish me harm. The most those people will get is a hearty explanation that they're being ignorant


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All of those things besides "furry" are mental or physical traits in people tho, not "labels" associated with mere fanbases. That makes no sense.
THose are actual physical and body-related traits.


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It's not a matter of convenience. We're talking about people with fundamental identities possibly having to harm themselves by hiding who they are or otherwise changing who are they, just to combat stereotypes and other social conventions, right? That's just not a reasonable request to make of people.

And, at a fundamental level, it wouldn't work anyway. Sadly, given how hatred works, one can be the nicest and most considerate person in the world. They can still be victimized to the point of outright murder just for being a member of a certain negatively seen group. And that's the fault of the perpetrators, not the victims.


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cause that, at least in my perception, is lying. i had in the past been huge into the show and fandom, and while i'm not nearly as hardcore as i once was, i don't want to let go of that for such a stupid reason as "because somebody made it look bad"

when i say i'm a brony, i say that with the understanding that i am a fan of the show, have extensively been a part of the fandom, and have happily applied it to myself as such

and if i can change some perceptions, that's cool. if somebody asks me "why would you call yourself a brony? so many bad people did these things" then i would be honest and say i don't associate with them, that they fucked up, and would not give them any credit or clout.

Then those people would have their "i know some bronies get a bad rap, but i do know one person who is pretty cool that calls themself a brony"

and if i can do that for anyone who asks, then i feel that i positively influenced those peoples perceptions of bronies, and also helped defuse the unnecessary hate towards those who don't deserve it, in this case bronies.

a person did a horrible thing. that person isn't me

there have been some racist and extreme right folks that enjoy ponies. that isn't me and i denounce those views

a person with a similar interest or identity did something wrong. that isn't me.

but am i brony? you bet!


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i live in a very Jewish area, and i do not think the way us Asians try to handle the perception that we are outsiders, and the Jewish one, are all that similar

i think, of course that is the case, as we come from such different cultural backgrounds, and historical contexts. The Jewish people would be the first to say, of course they desire their autonomy and cultural distinctiveness, even if it means fighting for it... whereas the East Asian, more than anything else, wishes simply to be left alone

East Asians very, very viciously self-police, i find. Or, we try to? But i also do not think this has anything to do with what i was saying about selfishness... this sort of cultural shaming is not, in my opinion, a good thing, ultimately

But i think, if that is how we identify unreasonable people, than most people would be considered unreasonable, and even all of us must also carry some degree of unreasonableness unless we can make the bold, and untrue, claim that we are absolutely without bias, yes?

...i do not know...

i wish, we could all be ourselves. And fundamentally, i think that is a good thing. But "ourselves" can mean a whole lot of things, and some of those are selfish things: things that are bad for society. Do we not owe it to society, to improve and change?

i am not suggesting the onus is on only one side. But i do think, we will grow more unified when we understand each other, and that understanding requires building bridges

If nobody wants to build bridges because bricks are heavy though, then the bridge shall never be built


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> if that is how we identify unreasonable people, than most people would be considered unreasonable

Most people are unreasonable. And yeah, I'm unreasonable sometimes too. Everyone is. What about it?


I am sorry but that, to me, just sounds exactly what some unsavory folks say. Like I have read that same post before, in other contexts that is better not to mention here due to rules.
In my opinion, one should not use labels to define themselves.


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>Has this ended anti-Semitism in America? No. In fact, hatred of Jews appears to have actively gotten worse over the past two decades in particular.
It's true that there's a small percentage of the population that vocally hates Jews.  But what are the Jewish stereotypes in popular culture?  It's true that there are some negative stereotypes.  But Jews are also regarded as intelligent and hard-working (and that has basis in reality, too).  And Jews overall also do quite well for themselves, looking at incomes brackets -- and I'd argue that Jewish culture is a significant component of this success.


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Doesn't it make you pause, though, the fact that Chinese-Americans have tried to self-police and fight what's perceived as selfishness while presenting a united cultural front and working to behave themselves in an anti-stereotype way... only to fail miserably? Not only has prejudice failed to decrease due to all of those efforts, but hatred of Chinese-Americans seems to have clearly increased over the past twenty years quite a bit.

It seems clear to me that members of a persecuted group (or one that's just disliked or whatever else) can't simply modify their own behavior in a vain attempt to 'look better' and 'seem less stereotypical'. That doesn't work. Hatred comes from complex places and responds in complicated ways to what victims as well as potential victims do.

It appears to me that you're just not understanding that prejudice and stereotyping is emotional rather than factual and logical. Some random person can hate Chinese-Americans for the same reason that they, say, hate the sound of birds of chirping or hate the taste of mushrooms. Or maybe it's the films that they saw as a child coupled with statements told to them by political leaders. Or maybe it's a bad romantic relationship. Or maybe it's a combination of things. The point is: people are often emotional and sometimes we must deal with that.


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...if we are all unreasonable, and we deal with unreasonable people by "getting on in life," then we are never not "getting on in life"

Is... that not selfish? i worry i do not understand


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I feel bad to be the one to say this, but:

All beliefs ultimately boil down to what you personally feel like dealing with. When you ask "how" and "why", that's ultimately the conclusion you arrive at. Your stance is different from mine probably just because we value different things, and that's an inescapable facet of life

Very few people, when all the layers of nuance are stripped away, are going to find anything of substance beyond their own personality's dictation of what matters


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one of the best lessons to learn is that someone may never like you no matter what. so you think i'm unsavory. then you don't have to be with me. you have the beautiful luxury to never associate with me, and vice versa

and labels are more or less a necessity of communication, and given community and cultural context, hold great weight regardless. If you want to avoid labels, then you more or less have to disassociate yourself with society as a whole and go off the grid.

i mean, i think i get where you are getting at, and if we could treat labels as wholly unnecessary, then that would be a pretty interesting and maybe great time. but labels will be added by either the group that wishes to identify themselves, or those groups that wish to demean others. you'll have a label placed upon you no matter what in that case.

So as far as labels, i find the ones i like, the ones i agree with, and i embrace them until i am otherwise convinced to drop them. that gives me a foundation to work upon, a frame of reference to build from to either reach to others with, or to build fortification around when being harmed.

plus, they are an easy way to communicate things

i identify as transgender, specifically bigender. from that you gain so much knowledge of my identity, and at least a vague understanding of my past with gender identity, even if it's not concrete

i identify as abro/pansexual. from that you can glean that i have a general attraction to people of all gender identities, but that it fluctuates

i identify as an artist. that gleans that i'm a creative person and creates something, even if i didn't specify what that art is.

labels are useful.

labels will be applied so long as there is a self and other

labels are ingrained in almost every single culture in the world, and are used as a point of reference for anyone who understands the language or sensory input being recieved

like them or hate them, labels are here to stay


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I'd say that prejudices and stereotypes are inherently illogical and either have no basis in factual reality or take a grain of truth in order to twist it into something else.

And that makes them by definition different than mere descriptions.

To use your examples, "psychopaths don't feel empathy the same way as other people" is not pejorative. It's just a statement like "bisexuals don't use gender identity in picking a partner" or "Americans from Rhode Island live in the smallest state". Nothing more. Nothing less.

"Bob is a psychopath, therefore I should be afraid of Bob because he's likely to hurt me in some way" is a problem. It's a stereotype because it's committing two logical errors. First, not feeling empathy doesn't mean actively causing harm. From what I've heard, actually, medically diagnosed psychopaths can and do engage in society in a reasonable way in many cases, provided there's some kind of appropriate treatment. Second, Bob as an individual is subject to all kinds of particular contextual things that aren't the same as what might be generally true for a group. Bob should be judged based on Bob's own beliefs and actions.

In terms of children, similarly, "Steve is too young to legally drink" is a factual statement while "Steve is too young to make good moral decisions" is a questionable assertion that might well be wrong. What is "goodness" and what is "morality" since even adults disagree on that? And how can you say for certain that Steve is like that?


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...but to "deal with that" is to exert effort, which i still think is the right, and unselfish thing to do

...sure, there is racist rhetoric increasing against Chinese-Americans, but consider that this time, it's actually in the news, and people are marching, actually marching, for us! And with us! Asian elderly getting beaten up in the street is nothing new, but now, people care about it too... nobody ever cared before. Not even the police used to care

Maybe i think too much on this though... maybe this is not important. It is better i drop this topic, and try to understand... to give up, a bit, for the greater good, and learn something in return


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...this seems... uncharacteristically deterministic, addy. i may need maybe to think more. i do not understand

...i am too tired i must sleep. i am not sure if i understand what we are talking about anymore


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Have a restful sleep, Moony!


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I've had a lot of issues with categories and labels myself. It's ongoing. It's still something I struggle with.

However, I think I can say this:

Categories and labels are social constructs, and they're meant to be useful in certain contexts because they can help. They can serve people. They can make communication easier.

However, at a fundamental level we must understand that categories and labels are made for people. People aren't made for them. It goes one way and one way only.

Think of a lawnmower. It does a great job cutting grass. Would you ever cut somebody's hair with a lawnmower? It's a created object meant to assist.

If I call myself a furry brony who's nonbinary in the bisexual/pansexual sense, then I'm choosing to use language in a certain fashion in order to quickly convey complicated details in full context. Yet I certainly might only partially fit particular things. And that's fine. Someone who might be perceived as transgender may have difficulties with the actual word. In my case, I would prefer not to be called "queer" and aren't quite sure about "gay" given the baggage behind those.

That's fine. People are unique, and people need to fumble along in order to best tell their own personal stories to others. Communication is what makes us who we are.


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Goodnight dear friends! Of course i still super love you!


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gnight moony!

>hugs and kajis <3

rest your weary head <3


What do you think of the word "brony"?  I never liked it.


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Rest well!


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I get what you're saying, but is there any point where a label has picked up enough negative reputation that it's best just to drop it and describe yourself in different terms?  E.g., I've still a fan of Pepe, but many people unfortunately associate Pepe with alt-right racists, so I wouldn't want to associate myself with it in public.


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I don't think that categories and labels can be segmented as cleanly as you seem to be implying. I can accurately call myself a "brony", a "furry", a "Whovian", a "bisexual", a "Texan", an "American", a "transgender person", and many other things that in identity terms have come at me in different ways and apply in varying contexts. However, what exactly these terms entail to me, personally, is going to be highly individual. It can't help but be like that.

And, well, I could very well hide being bisexual forever. Only date feminine-presenting individuals. Yet though it's a matter of free choice, well, self expression still applies. Similarly, I could never tell anybody where I'm from. Yet I feel that it matters quite a bit. Even if, well, I certainly can go someplace else in my life.

While I wouldn't say that my fandom interests are equally as important to me as my gender identity history, it still remains important to me that they're both at least somewhat linked since people supportive of one are supportive of the other as well as that both traits have functioned as parts of self-expression to get me through depression. Not to get overly personal. To the main point, well, it's that identity is a fuzzy concept with overlap and context.


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Ooh, who's your favorite Doctor?


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it is complex, and i do agree with you in what you said. and it does require more nuance and understanding than the simple breakdown i gave ect.

actually stemming off of your comment there. the labels of "queer" and "gay" are interesting because of baggage, but also because of reclamation. and i'm no stranger to this.

i personally am accepting of the term Queer myself, as it is a great general term for that which isn't cishet by nature, and also prominent in progressive LGBTQ+ theory and understanding. as for Gay, it's a synonym for homosexual, which i don't identify as, but it is also used as a group term for the LGBTQ+ community as a whole, so in a way i'm part of the Gays in that sense. I don't perceive that as an issue. i don't have an issue if somebody else doesn't like the terms however, because of their use as slurs in the past, and/or their inaccuracy at defining themselves.

like how i don't like the term "fag". i definitely still see the slur in that word, and don't partake in it's use. but when i see people within their groups that are openly not cishet with eachtohter use it in a reclaimation sort of way, that i can get for sure.

it does show the flaws of labels, and double standards some of them have, but it's still something that is prevalent, and will remain prevalent whether we like it or not.

well i think of it as this:

say that something has been claimed by a bad group, like Pepe by alt-right racists; or the swatsika by nazi's, ect.

those, unfortunately have been heavily tied to the hateful groups that have undermined that symbol, and supplanted it's meaning.

but that's why i view educating people on origins and meanings as so important. The original author of Pepe denounces the alt-right connotations, and i think people deserve to know that. The swatsika was originally in many eastern religious traditions as a sign of good luck and prosperity, before it was taken over as a hate symbol.

now these are things that have been taken pretty hard by the respective hate groups and political parties, so it's probably not wise to showcase this stuff on your person at this time.

but then we go back to the original argument of bronies being associated with bad people. Well the recent memory of bronies have been associated with a show that preaches friendship and good moral messages, it by defiition is anti-hate, so that would be important to bring up

then there have been countless people, groups, projects, and conventions that have benefited peoples lives in one way or another, and were almost always benign in nature.

and the sooner that it is shown that the hate group is the exception and not the norm of a community, the easier it is to seperate the association with the bad stuff.

so that's why i still call myself a brony. so that i can be somebody that can educate and provide a healthy role model.


Ten was my first, so it will probably always be him, heh.

Plus, Tennant is such a talented performer...


A good choice!

I guess there is value in showing off the good side of pony fans.  I wish there were a better word than "brony" though.  It still rubs me the wrong way after all these years!


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And now I will head to bed.  Goodnight, everyone!


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I am a determinist and a nihilist, but I'm also an optimist and love life dearly. Indeed, I think there is nothing more valuable than life and love. These are not opposing concepts, merely the result of my personality when considered alongside my adoration of philosophical pondering

If it makes people happy, I see no real harm in it, but I just consider myself a fan of the show. I'm a fan of many things


It isn't fair to place blame on the community as a whole for the actions of an individual. Any community with an open door policy has the potential to have seriously bad people be members of it.

That said, it is my observation that the mlp community has a very disproportionately large number of troubled and very troubled individuals by comparison to other communities. And because of the nature of it being mlp (i.e. a show promoting love and tolerance and all problems being solvable by literal friendship magic) the community at large probably hasn't policed itself well enough.


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>very disproportionately large number of troubled and very troubled individuals by comparison to other communities

Without necessarily saying I disagree: Got any sources on that? Statistics? Or is this purely  anecdotal evidence and emotional supposition?  


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It's really not. Keep the dog whistling shit out of here.


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>Does... it not help society to understand things in this way?

Ironically enough not, since there are like four other personality disorders characterized by diminished empathy, or lack there of. Also, it conflates three different types of empathy, and antisocial personality disorder doesn't necessarily always involve a lack of empathy (i.e. dark empaths).


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Somehow my brain keeps interpreting that image as Rarity having three boobs.


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I would also like to add, tangentially, that I find empathy terrifying and don't understand why it's perceived as such a benefit to humanity


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I guess there are multiple overlapping meanings of the word "empathy".  Involuntarily experiencing the emotions of another person perhaps isn't so useful.  But being able to understand the emotions of another person can be useful for predicting how that person might act and react, and such predictive power is generally useful to an intelligent agent.


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Because people frequently equate it with compassion or sympathy. Empathy is just the ability to feel like, and/or at least cognitively understanding other people's emotions. Sympathy, and compassion are feeling for someone regardless of how the person is feeling in the moment.


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> Involuntarily experiencing the emotions of another person perhaps isn't so useful

This is the junk I'm talking about. Why do people want it? Why do they place so much faith in its utility?

I have trouble with emotions in general, but I still want everyone to have healthy and happy lives, and take efforts to ensure that it's possible where I can


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Psychologist and neurologist typically break empathy into three types:

Motor empathy is the ability pf your brain, using brain cells called mirror neurons, to mirror neurological activity of motor movements via observation of others physical movements, including facial expressions, body language and other gestures. Before a person can experience the next kind of empathy, empathetic responses begin as motor empathy.

Emotional empathy is the ability to feel something someone else is feeling, via motor empathy.

Cognitive empathy is the ability to identify and understand others emotions, on an intellectual level, especially  potential future emotions, without needing to feel them in the moment.


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People are having a heartful discussion about emotion and the nuances of empathy, maybe you could be a little more kind and attempt thoughtful commentary instead?


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I was replying to OP.


Oh, sorry. I thought you were the anon from earlier in the thread! I am extremely flustered that I jumped to such a conclusion


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S'alright. Anons usually spell their names the same way.

Although you won't find any thoughtful commentary here. Just peanut gallery comments.


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Sometimes life-changing observations come from the least likely of places


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Bad apples can come from anywhere, no pun intended.

The fact that this person was an active member of said community only serves as another tag, instead of a definitive element of who he is or who he was.

I'm not going to bother to write a huge wall of text to explain exactly every single element and detail of what possibly could lead an "supposed" human being into that, but let's just put it that way:

Some guys will be massive dicks at certain given circunstances, and even cause huge damage while at it, its part of the human nature, specially when you have crippling depression paired with histeric anxiety.


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I guess the nosebleed seats do have the widest view.


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Empathy can be a useful tool to achieve desired outcomes. It helps for getting reads on someone and know what strings to pull to get them to follow your tune. Most people are bad at emotional regulation. So this usually works.


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one bad apple (no pun intended) in this case does not represents a whole

though sadly the media will likely portray pony fans as crazy lunatics at some point

matter of fact likely wouldnt surprise me if they did already

anyway, you do you

keep enjoying your ponies and live your life  

you'll be fine


>Got any sources on that?
I was pretty up front about that here
>it is my observation


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Why are you so naive, Moony.
And for the record.... I'm being as nice as possible.


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Moony I think you're falling into the exact same generalization that you worry about. Imagine if someone in your family didn't want to be associated with Asians because of what people think about Asians, thinking it's easier and more responsible to try to live without that label.


i'm gonna brony up the school
some of you are okay, stay at home tomorrow


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I haven't considered myself part of the fandom for a long time, but I don't believe you should disassociate with it just because there happened to be an unhinged person who liked the same thing. The news will often sensationalize these things, but people typically forget very quickly.


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I despise labels and identity.  All groups have negative associations to those who aren't in them and there's often no benefit to taking them on.  Sometimes labels are hard to avoid, like those based on your gender or race, but any other labels you might take on are a bad idea.  It's best to scrub as many labels as you can, both to avoid assumptions from other people, and to avoid misrepresenting a group.


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I 100% believe someone who would say they want to die to be with Applejack and then murder people is doing it as a troll move to make as big of an impact as possible while going out.

This person doesn't represent any community, especially not this one. The closest this guy really aligns with is misanthropes who see reality as a pissing contest.

News is gonna jump all over it, but news media is made out of sensation. They'd latch onto anything if they could so long as it doesn't put THEIR people in bad light.


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Media jumps on anything to blame on anything besides themselves and how terrible they do are reporting things properly to help people.

No, it MUST be video games.  It MUST be guns.  It MUST be bronies.  Must be the internet.

Not how piss poor this world is as a whole with mental help or following up with concerns.



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There is much wisdom being shared in here. i will need to take more time to respond at home, but i am grateful to have so much to think about!


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>Not how piss poor this world is as a whole with mental help or following up with concerns.

Call me cynical but I hear this argument dropped all the time by the same people who would not support any efforts to address mental health issues in the first place if it meant anyone other than the mentally ill individual would pay for that help. And once again nothing changes as people continue to dance around the realities if mental illnesses and how they complicate moral frameworks that revolv3 around personal responsibility, or are afraid to confront the implications about free will that the reality of mental illnesses imply.


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>Media jumps on anything to blame on anything besides themselves and how terrible they do are reporting things properly to help people.

Also, the media reflects the biases of their consumers. People who tend to fear others who are different than them will gravitate towards media that confirms that xenophobia.


What the heck are you saying?


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Are you insuating I don't care about mental health even though I just said mental health needs more help?

Nothing is free so of course you have to pay for a therapist or medicine..?  Or insurance helps with that.

The issue here is that the family has said much earlier they had said he was mentally not sound and wanted to suicide by cop.  They didn't care but also why didn't the family push more for some help with him

I don't really know what that second statement means.  Media has an agenda of what they want and it's disturbing to me.  I hate media and everything they stand for.


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I'm saying that the media reflects the biases of the people who consume it, so the media isn't solely to blame.

And I am expressing cynicism over the argument "it wasn't [x] that led to violence, it's mental health issues" when so often it's made by those in opposition to doing anything about treating mental health issues if it would require public funding, because of unrealistic ideologies and a general stigma against the mentally ill that keeps them from seeking help. Pretty muchbsick of hearing this argument repeated cause it would imply a solution that would require one to drop their own stigmas against mental illness and start seeing such people as, well, people, and accepting that such conditions are disabilities that can, in our society, undermine their very ability to treat such illnesses. So instead, violence happens, a bunch of people blame them for their association with a subculture, or on a hobby, or on the influence of media, or on the availability of weapons. Then someone come really close to a more plausible (if not always accurate) explanation like it's mental health issues to blame ... and then basically stopping right there and not willing to go further down that rabbit hole and confronting the best and most humane solutions/mitigations to mental illness are, because of how such solutions are not compatible with certain ideologies, or it would mean confronting one's own prejudices about mental illnesses.


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>Are you insuating I don't care about mental health even though I just said mental health needs more help?

Not really, just expressing my cynicism over this rhetoric as basically a deflection. A point where the conversation just ... ends.

>Nothing is free so of course you have to pay for a therapist or medicine..?  Or insurance helps with that.

Many mental disorders, especially those that have the highest risk of suicide, and the severe ones which feature psychosis as a symptom leave many unemployable without treatment. So the situation is frequently a catch-22. They can't get effective mental health treatment unless they can hold down a job and be lucky enough to have a job with health insurance that actually covers mental health care, but they often can't hold down that kind of job because of mental illness. You can't realistically expect a person with a disabling mental illness to be able to treat themselves or have the resources for it unless they just happen to be lucky enough to have someone who can help. This is why nearly a third of all homeless people in the United States have schizophrenia, they're homeless because they are literally not capable of holding down work, and thus can't help themselves.

>The issue here is that the family has said much earlier they had said he was mentally not sound and wanted to suicide by cop.  They didn't care but also why didn't the family push more for some help with him.

Cause of all the ways in which actually seeking help is complicated by mental illness stigma, is what I would assume is most likely. It's at the root of why mental health care is such garbage in the United States.

>I don't really know what that second statement means.  Media has an agenda of what they want and it's disturbing to me.  I hate media and everything they stand for.

I'm saying the media doesn't have an agenda other than making a business profitable, that means finding an audience, use sensationalism to grab attention (cause if you can't draw attention as a media outlet, your business fails) and confirm the biases of your audience to secure consumer loyalty. Media outlets dont have any agenda other than appeasing their established audiences. If they seem bias against you, it just means you aren't part of their audience.


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Forgive me for being curt, but I don't think anyone cares about your thoughts on a particular argument based on what some other people say. If I told you "That thing you just said is something I hear a lot from hypocrites and liars", I think you would rightfully think "Who gives a shit about what they say?"

As for the media thing, your argument is extremely circular. That doesn't actually make it wrong, there's probably a feedback loop involved, but you keep switching up what you're saying so it's hard to understand if you're trying to say "x causes y" or "y causes x".



I think the thread's OP is fine for /pony/, but if it's going to get into parsing out arguments it definitely belongs on /townhall/, so take it there.


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... I wasn't arguing.

I thought I was just having a healthy debate.

I'm done.  DIdn't know it was against the rules.


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Frankly, I think this was inevitable with the thread's creation, and that we shouldn't stop people now. What's the difference between talking about the points in Moony's own OP and the stuff folks are discussing in the thread at this exact moment? Are they not one and the same? Both are heavily philosophical topics about societal expectations, demographical data, behavioral psychology... many other things. This is the natural course when considering a murderous shooter

Either the thread's topic is okay to discuss, or it isn't



I meant argument in the sense of like..."logical arguments", not that you were fighting or something.


Aha, trying to trick me into debating the merits of the thread are you?  I won't fall for it!


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You mean 'parsing out arguments' like... trying to figure the logic behind whatever argument is being made? Because that is what I was trying to do, but I don't think that's what goes on /townhall/...


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Excuse me? Are you advocating for the usage of only "illogical" arguments on /pony/? I don't think I could be more deeply offended at the state of our website, if that's the case!


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I am so confused.  I thought this thread was the point of healthy debates...


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Just hopping in to see that this is what I agree with. This is literally my view, and I couldn't have worded it better.
Like, why say "I am a liberal" when you can say things like "I have views that align with the 'liberal' party". They might sound similar, but they are not.
We are more than labels. Well, at the very least I like to think that I am more than a label.


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If it helps, I'll defend your right to have a healthy debate in this thread


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I guess I'm confused as well about what's verboten for /pony/ but allowed on /townhall/.  I understand that argument/debate/etc about partisan politics and hot-button culture-war issues are to be confined to /townhall/.  But this thread didn't seem to enter that territory, at least not yet.


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Thanks, friend!  I wasn't trying to start any trouble.  I was just trying to have a healthy debate with someone and see their side but also my side, lol.  I don't care for politics.


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>I guess I'm confused as well about what's verboten for /pony/ but allowed on /townhall/.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm not sure any of us really know.


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...i did not expect a lot of debating, i was just hoping to learn. But the outcome, i see now, was certain because of the topic

That said, i think it has been handled very well so far! c:


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I have to say, I do see your side with mental illness.. which is why I am advocating it needs to be fixed and taken care of better.  But I was more so speaking for people, like this guy, who had help much easier especially with family.  
I have always been on the opinion people who kill others or go on sprees like this do have mental problems.

We will have to disagree on the media part, lol.  I heavily feel they have an agenda and I don't think either of us will change on that.


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Hope I didn't cause any issues.  I was just having a convo lol


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None at all c: i am grateful to have read your perspective even, Czarina.

It has been wonderful to learn from and spend time with you, and all of our friends in the thread!


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I mean, I didn't think explaining my thoughts was making an argument.

>Forgive me for being curt, but I don't think anyone cares about your thoughts on a particular argument based on what some other people say. If I told you "That thing you just said is something I hear a lot from hypocrites and liars", I think you would rightfully think "Who gives a shit about what they say?"

I was making a tangent and expressing an opinion related to what Czarina said.


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>I have to say, I do see your side with mental illness.. which is why I am advocating it needs to be fixed and taken care of better.

My point was to address the stigma against people with mental illnesses, basically addressing the reason mental Healthcare sucks in the US (and much of the rest of the world).

I was leading into expressing that I believe that should be the first thing addressed before we can really solve the problems with mental health care. People need to stop thinking of people with mental illness as less than human, dehumanization only exacerbates their issues ... and that ultimately implies challenging beliefs that the very existence of mental illnesses threaten.


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>We are more than labels. Well, at the very least I like to think that I am more than a label.

Labels can be useful shorthand to communicate a number of things quickly.

Now, if only people would remember that labels don't imply as much as they think it does. If only they wouldn't objectify and oversimplify other people for the sake of cognitive expediency. Unfortunately the later comes naturally and instinctively which is another example of why intellect is a discipline


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>I mean, I didn't think explaining my thoughts was making an argument.

Isn't that the definition of an argument?  Perhaps it shouldn't count in terms of the site, though?  I dunno.


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>the stigma against people with mental illnesses
I think it's gradually lessening.  When I started my job 7-8 years ago, I had to provide detailed answers to questions about my mental health and get a note from my psychiatrist indicating that my conditions (ADHD and Aspergers) didn't cause me to pose an undue risk.  They've changed the process since then, to focus on only certain limited types of mental-health issues, so my latest periodic re-evaluation was less burdensome.  


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I would say that general American society looks down upon LGBT individuals still quite a lot, people with mental illnesses still quite a lot, and people who are both LGBT as well as having mental illnesses are double marginalized (if not more so). The brony community actively doesn't do this and in fact goes the opposite direction, being as welcoming to all comers regardless of whatever identity they were born into. Having autism and other, related conditions aren't technically mental illnesses as such but the principle still applies.

Given this, it appears inevitable that there will be more potentially violent and antisocial-ish people in the brony community than other, similar subcultures. If there's a needle in every haystack, so to speak, then more haystacks mean more needles. Simple enough.

As well, wording this as delicately as I can, I think it's probably very likely that (and I've seen scientific evidence that this is the case) bisexuals, nonbinary people, trans women, lesbians, trans men, and other such people are likely to, on a genetic level, be more predisposed to developing autism, depression, schizophrenia, and related conditions. There are lots of straight cisgender men, say, who can barely sleep and struggle with suicidal thoughts... but when you compare that to similar issues among, say, gender-mixed individuals... there's a lot of data on this.

At a fundamental level, isn't empathy like hunger and thirst? You feel it whether you want to or not. Observing that it's there isn't necessarily approval or disapproval. It's just that regular people are full of empathy, as a factual observation, therefore to build a better world where we don't rip each other to pieces we have to create solutions so that empathy leads to constructive things.

I concur with all of this. Thanks for posting these points. Absolutely.

While on the one hand certain prejudices in society are lessening (so statements like, say, "I'd never date a transgender person", "I'd never work for a black person", "I'd never be friends with a Jew", et cetera are becoming highly unacceptable among regular people) discrimination and outright hatred of those with mental illnesses as well as those with non-standard psychology (whether they have autism or whatever else) remains prevalent. It's kind of interesting. And maddening.

"I'd never be friends with a transgender person" seems more bigoted than "I'd never be friends with an autistic person", in some sense to a lot of Americans, but... why? I can't get it. Either way, somebody is picking on another for no valid reason and expressing a hang up that can honestly cross the line into actual harm.

We'd make such progress in society if we at a very basic level, putting all of the issues with economics, laws, politics, and the rest aside, agreed with each other that like... say, in our personal lives we'd act like Mister Rogers. What would he do? Would he refuse a neighbor just for being born a little different?


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i have trouble following conversation, pseudofox :c

is this not, what you had argued against, andrea's points? i am afraid, i am ... lost


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As I'd said before, I think that the essential problem is that categories and labels are created for people. People aren't created for them. They're social constructs. Ideas. Artificial entities.

Bleach is very helpful to clean your clothes with. You wouldn't want any of it to leak into your drinking water. A lawnmower is very helpful to cut grass with. You wouldn't want to trim your hair with it. A toaster is very helpful to make breakfast with. You wouldn't want to make a bathtub toy out of it.

It's about both context and free choice. If I hate having 'X' and 'Y' apply to me, whatever they are, then my freedom as an individual should be respected. At the same time, if my neighbor loves being called 'X' and 'Y'... well, that's their life. They need to do what makes them fulfilled. They need to walk their own life path. I need to walk mine.


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>certain prejudices in society are lessening (so statements like, say, "I'd never date a transgender person", ... et cetera are becoming highly unacceptable among regular people)
Eh, I don't think you can really blame people for not being sexually attracted to transgender individuals.  Personally, I'm rather flexible, but I know that others find transgender to be a sexual turnoff, and sexual preferences aren't under conscious control.


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Words like "blame", "guilt", "shame", and the like are the core problem, I think, here.

If Bob doesn't understand the concept of transgender identities and decides to rule out dating people under that particular umbrella of types, then I feel like we should consider that a kind of personal choice and a mistake. Not the sort of thing that would make Bob a 'bad person'. I'd hate for Bob to be hurt in some way just for being human and making a mistake.

I'd actually go so far as to say that a big reason why I don't like calling myself either a 'liberal' or a 'progressive' is because I feel like blaming and guilt-tripping people in public is a fool's errand. People make mistakes. It happens.

I suppose I'll stick my neck out even more and say that I actually empathize with Bob because, like you said, sexual preferences are unconscious and sloppy. They rarely are developed in a logical way and thus rarely make that much sense. Bob knows that dating sucks, and his hang up just makes it suck a little bit more (but it'd suck anyway).

I suppose I'd advise Bob if I was his friend to rethink things and actively try to seek out possible relationships with individuals that he might've written off before. If that doesn't work out, I'd tell him to be more specific on his wording and just understand the implications of what he believes. "I'm less attracted to transgender people and haven't had positive relationships with them in the past" is a factual statement, not a form of prejudice, and so while unfortunate it'd be something fine to talk about in a calm way. I guess.

</tangent aside>


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Uhhh... I think if you were Bob's friend and you tried any of that, he'd tell you you're being terribly pretentious and maybe not want to be your friend.


I cannot imagine that situation with "Bob" going well, in any circumstance. People usually understand their sexual preferences, and in the event that they don't, whether they want to explore them is entirely up to them


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It's their life, and so whether or not they want to be prejudiced in a certain way would be up to them. I don't think that criticizing prejudice would make me out of line in any fashion, let alone being "pretentious" or whatever. It's their right to be who they want to be, and mine to be who I want to be as well (which includes being somebody who criticizes bad things in an attempt to try to hope for a better world).

In my personal case, I tend to divorce friendship and general personal relationships completely from beliefs. I could have a best friend who's an utter far right hardliner who thinks that transgender people should be discriminated against in every way, well beyond just dating to everything else, and I'd still be their friend. To be honest, my attitudes on this are pretty absolute. I could have a family member or friend who wound up in jail for political violence, say, and it wouldn't matter. Friends are friends. Ties are ties.

But that's me. For other people, like, it probably is a fine idea to only have friends that you agree with on nearly all things. That's alright. Their lives.

I might also change what I think in terms of my personal relationships. Maybe. I doubt it. But maybe.


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"So listen Bob, I would never 'blame' or 'shame' you, but if you want to be prejudiced about your relationships then that's on you to be wrong."


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It is wrong.

I'm not really getting your point, or what you're even arguing really.


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>criticizes bad things

How are his sexual preferences a bad thing? That's like saying it's a "bad thing" I like certain flavors of ice cream but not others, or certain cartoons, or that I love Autumn most


The pretentious part is that you claim that blaming and guilting and shaming is the "core problem" and then you have absolutely no trouble doing it anyway, and in a situation that makes you out to be a rather caustic busybody.


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This is getting into "calling out prejudices make you into a left-wing elitist hipster censor who has to cancel culture everything that real Americans do and like" territory, and is rather /townhall/ at the moment, so I guess we should stop.

I'll just finish on that, no, I don't think opposition to prejudice is even particularly that odd in the first place, let alone something that by doing it makes you some kind of horrid individual because how dare you stand up for progress.


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No one's stopping you, just don't be a hypocrite about it.


I don't think sexual preference is usually considered 'prejudice'.  Like, it's not prejudice for a gay man to refuse to date a woman, is it?


Pseudo, what are you even saying? I like you and I want to understand, but you're not engaging with the criticisms or dialogue, here. Why are sexual preferences bad? Can you answer that?


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It's not that I refuse to make political arguments. It's that I don't believe in doing them here.

I realize that might make me into a hair-splitting idiot, and that may be true, but I'm not a hypocrite.


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Well, I admit that I may have completely misunderstood what you said earlier about words like "blame" and "guilt" being the problem. Maybe this has all been a silly misunderstanding.


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i think maybe, we maybe are straying a bit into controversy, which is okay, but please be mindful of each other <3


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Is it really a hard concept to get across that like, okay, if somebody goes "I could never date a black person" or "I could never be friends with a Jew" or whatever that in the eyes of me and a lot of people that's a problem? That even though it's a personal dislike, that personal dislikes have real consequences in terms of general social attitudes? I don't think it's that difficult.

I understand that's not a problem to a lot of other people.

Disagreement is understandable. After all, quite a lot of people throughout most of American history believed that a business could turn down somebody due to their religion, race, sexual orientation, or whatever and that such a thing didn't actually count as prejudice because it was just a personal preference. The boss liked to associate with certain customers in a club-like kind of atmosphere, and that was what happened. Now, though, a lot of people's attitudes have changed.

Back in the day, criticism of such business actions made you into a "busybody", made you "pretentious", and so on. Made you a left-wing extremist. But times changed.

This is all really /townhall/ though, so I seriously should stop here.


>This is all really /townhall/ though
OK, I've started a thread and replied here:


When you get a large enough community, there will always be a certain amount of bad actors within it. This is a statistical certainty. I simply don't see how the actions of this one, very clearly deranged person is reflective of the brony community as a whole.


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i did not know this little detail on the shooter.


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>I am scared that everyone thinks of us as really bad things

listen im not gonna lie, ponies stopped having any ounce of not being associated with major weirdness at latest by the time series 3 came out, and that's being very generous imo.

people judge for everything and anything regardless, so you shouldn't worry about it too much. this will just be another "example" to cite, but there were plenty way before it.



When a fandom has one of it's central tenants as acceptance, don't be too surprised when it attracts terrible people who aren't accepted anywhere else, or when those  people have serious problems...  

Not like the mainstream media has ever been fond of grown men who don't do things other than live lives of quiet desperation. It's the same with weebs, the same with gamers. Hobbyism and mainstream media don't get along, because grown men are suppose to put their efforts towards lining the pockets of the rich and keeping the wheels of society turning. They're suppose to shut up, be productive, and obey, so groups of men who find their own passions beyond those things aren't taken kindly to by the powers that be... They say most men lead lives of quiet desperation, and those in power naturally don't want to see the status quo shaken up, so those that neither live lives of quiet desperation, nor find satisfaction in the socially sanctioned ways of finding happiness, are naturally going to be treated harshly by society. Basically, it's not ponies people are *really* criticizing. It's men that won't shut up and tow the line. It's been like that forever.

It doesn't matter what people think. Pursue things you enjoy. Find what makes you happy and stick to it. People kill for countless reasons. I think it neither condemns nor endorses whatever it is they killed for. We have no more responsibility for this guy than some poor high school virgin has for Elliot Rogers.


I've seen people use the ponies as a emotional crutch - especially those suffering from loneliness. They're cute, colorful, generally good, and would never hurt you in a 1,000 years. People suffering from mental problems tend to look for emotional crutches - and sometimes, they also look for weapons.


I think you nailed it.



Yep, i 100% agree with this.


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I hate to be argumentative but, at which point is it "just autism" and when is it the person?  Some people, who happen to suffer of autism, are VILE and simple despicable. At what point should somebody just try and forgive them "because it's autism"? Look at Chris Chan, for example. It's not like today's doctors can fully diagnoze or identify autism either. This is a broad spectrum and if even qualified doctors can't pinpoint autism, and it shows differenlty on each person, how can regular folks try to understand it too?
That's a difficult task for the average Joe and Jane, who will probably not care that much if they cannot understand it.


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It seems that, to me, both backgrounds and free will matter.

To take a rather extreme example: Adolf Hitler. What if young Hitler's mother hadn't tragically died of sudden, painful cancer when he was in a child in circumstances that appeared to completely disprove her positive views on life (calm, compassionate, and kind) and completely vindicate the negative views on life of his other relatives (that it's all survival of the fittest)? What if, after being utterly shattered, he hadn't had his identity morphed by a horrid atmosphere of militarism and prejudice contaminating him due to family and neighbors? What if his dreams as a young adult got fulfilled in terms of creative work instead of being quashed? What if he hadn't fought for a losing military in a devastating yet pointless war?

It's all important. At the same time, no God of Fate forced him to join the budding Nazi Party. Nobody made him decide to adopt his ideology and achieve his aims. He was put into a terrible position, and he freely chose to not just wallow in it but use his hurt in order to harm others.

I think that the situation of somebody such as, say, Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza, who suffered from especially severe autism to the point that normal human interaction wasn't possible for him... it's comparable. One regrets that he certainly had the background he had, facing the isolation that he did. At the same time, it still all boils down to this: choices. Nobody put a gun in his hand. He did that to himself.

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