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a lost pony wonders if Rule Zero is ever going to be enforced here or if it is just vaporware.

I keep seeing deliberately rude things said in particular by a specific individual and when they are said to me and I say that wasn't nice, I am accused of using Rule Zero as a "bludgeon".  etc.

I have clearly stated on several occasions that my firm opinion is that Rule Zero violation which runs rampant on this site underlies the debacle that led to a complete rules makeover.

imo laze faire enforcement of Rule Zero (or perceived LACK of any enforcement all) causes a lot of unhappiness on an otherwise very happy pony site and I'm sorry Moons and staff, I'm really kind of frustrated about this and I'd like some direct discussion about the issue all by itself, without distraction of other issues.
50 posts and 12 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


Eh, depends on what you consider 'political aspects', I guess.


It might be worth it make a new thread to discuss that AND what was discussed here.



As long as no one is spamming the board, making new threads is perfectly acceptable.


I'll do that soon. But we should discuss Rule 0 and LP's behavior in this thread.


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All right, I'll bite:
What specific things have i done to harm you?  Take your time and be clear now, because if you don't name any things in particular then you are forever estopped from asserting them.

Perhaps we can begin with how you accusing me of being a school shooter harmed you, and how threatening to call the police on me for it harmed you.  Then gradually work your way to the present and please leave nothing out.

>taking this personally just so you can be outraged?

Ah, presumption of my malintent.  Goes well with >>2142
>clear vendetta against me
and where ever all the times you accused me of assuming your malintent.  

So, when i am offended and tell you so, you explain that my offense is wrong.  You do not say that you didn't mean it that way, but how it is impossible for a reasonable person to take offense therefore i am pretending to be hurt in order to hurt you, as part of my "vendetta".

Looks like you've figured out my evil plan; i'm not fooling anyone.  Obviously i'm not hurt, tears aside, it's just my projecting my evilness on you so i can pretend.  Without a doubt, a lost pony intends maliciously to demonize the angelic Dragonpuncher until he is hated by all.

But seriously tho, have you ever tried saying "hey man, i really didn't mean it that way and i'm sorry" instead of accusing someone of a vendetta?

You seem kinda Thorax-y.  I wonder why you are concealing who you are.  Also why, if you perceive i've hurt manley, that you don't enumerate some examples yourself.  Perhaps you don't have any examples and you are playing negotiator to try and foster a shared middle ground somewhere by seeking a concession from each party that they've made mistakes.  Well i've made some.  There it is.  But no matter what you get from me, you'll get no admissions from Mr. Right over there, who has never harmed a fly inadvertently or otherwise.

Likely you are someone who is not unfriendly towards me and you don't want to be perceived as partial in this thing that has somehow become some kind of a battle between myself and the Dragonpuncher.

The truth is i am drained of life by all this.  I don't have any vendetta or ill will against any of you here, with maybe one exception and no, it's not you Manley.  He knows who he is and i'm certain he is most entertained.  But the rest of you i've come to love and i can't say i've done a good job of being among you.

I obviously cannot function socially in this environment, and while i cannot be sorry for ever coming here as i made several friends, i can definitely be very sorry for the time i've spent here in terms of aparent harm i've caused.  I just don't know what the hell it is about you young adults.  I just can't get along with you.  It's like a disability or something.

I'm very sorry.  Very, very sorry to you all especially you, Moony.  I am informed there is a raging conversation going on right now about this and i don't feel happy at all i initiated that.  I'm very, very sorry Moons and i hope you still want to be friends.

I guess i'll go now.

Yes that sounds like a nice topic, why don't you do that.



It might be best to wait for him to get back to discuss him specifically, but the staff decided there was no rule-breaking in the earlier thread tonight, just a normal argument.



I know you're hurt, but genuinely saying "I am hurt" to him is probably better than the sarcasm. Otherwise this is a good start.

Also, my name is "Savvy", or "Peppermint" on Saturday. And I don't want you to be hurt. I sympathize with you, but I do have to be impartial.


The fact that you're still holding grudges for misunderstandings that happened months and months ago that I thought we had moved passed doesn't really prove your point of NOT having a vendetta.

You hurt me by constantly trying to get me in trouble, and accusing me of things I haven't done or said. By having wild, ridiculous over-reactions and not discussing things with me first. You JUST accused me of sexually harassing you in the thread because you kept denying you made a joke you did make.

I hope you're not another Peppermint that I know. That person is dangerous.


It was nice meeting you the other day.  You were very kind then and now.

Perhaps you all should check it again because i feel in violation.

I've told him i'm hurt and been told i'm not for almost two years now.  Even i'm tired of my whining.  What sarcasm?  According to his charge i spoke the truth about my intent and plan and without specific allegations to defend against it seems easiest to just concede it.  

Those are not specific allegations but generalized conclusions.

Except the sexual harassment, which you did continually push in spite of my clear demands you stop.  I never said i did not make a joke, i acknowledged it repeatedly.  That I'd failed to notice your question in a thread specificallt about sex with cartoon characters i said was because my blood "was somewhere else".  Its a funny joke because it makes a general implication that the listener can make into a specific inference.  When you took a crude position that i had literally talked about my "boner" that was something that happened in your mind and you called me unkind names.

Making a general sex joke in your sex thread doesn't constitute me discussing my genitals.  Your calling me names was unkind, and your refusal to stop talking about my genitals was not only unkind but illegal.  I have a right to say No.  I said No repeatedly.  Yet you persisted, and you did so with both general and specific intent to a standard to be charged successfully with criminal harassment.

That's not my wanting to get you in trouble, thats my wanting you to stop harassing me.

Now, make your specific charges because believing you got away with past harassment and i still remember them now is not evidence of vendetta or my offenses against you, it is bullying.



Oh yeah, ding ding ding.  Calling Luna "dangerous", very nice violation of Rule Zero there Manley.

Which you can't blame on my vendetta or say im white knighting because this is my thread specifically about violations of Rule Zero.



I feel maybe our treatment of Rule 0 is more lenient than yours, because we fear being too strict might make conversation difficult. Over a year ago I was far more strict with Rule 0, as you want us to be, but I think maybe Rule 0 either needs clarification or rewriting at this point. The rule is inherently difficult to enforce for all but the most egregious examples of insults or attacks.


At this point what constitutes "most egregious insults or attacks"?

There have been many in the last several days directed at many people and in the time i've been here a particular person who has volunteered in this thread as an example has called me school serial killer and asshole and as i pointed out his conduct regarding harassment against me meets a criminal standard.

Itt he has accused me of vendetta and when challenged for examples of how i've hurt him, the examples given consist entirely of not forgiving him for a course of conduct he acknowledges itt was egregious enough that he felt was worthy of needing forgiveness, and even trying to get him in trouble for those things he admits he did to me, and i'm even supposed to both accept his name-calling and sexual harassment without hurt because his excuse is my "vendetta".  Textbook bullying behavior to a degree an outside observer would assume it's a sexual relationship between us (and i say this as a student of law and observer of countless restraining order hearings).

Would none of these behaviors rise to the standard of unkindness egregious enough to constitute violation of the current Rule Zero which states simply "be kind to one another" (quoting from memory)?

It doesn't say dont murder each other, and no one's calling for bans.  Just maybe a mod warning once in a blue moon that says "Hey that's not nice" once in a while.  Especially when someone says "ouch that hurt" and gets beat down because they are wrong so can't be hurt and to stop whining and btw have a vendetta.


I didn't call Luna dangerous. I only mentioned I know someone who goes by Peppermint who is. Do you even listen to yourself before you spout off?

The thread wasn't about "sex with cartoon characters." Sex was never mentioned. You made that up on your own. Now who's the pervert. And no, you did not Acknowledge that. You kept denying it and insisting I called YOU gross and not your joke gross.

You are the one harassing me! All of your comments today have been snarky remarks or sarcasm when I want NOTHING to do with your childish behavior.


Why do you two keep bickering about this?  Forgive and forget.


Because he made a thread to complain about it? I'd much rather this thread not be here.



This thread isn't even about him.  He came stomping in here on his own, and i've forgiven him countless times.  If i can't get some kind of protection from his abuse i will have to go.


Yes, i acted poorly today.

But that doesn't excuse your behavior.


The thread's not about me, but you posted >>>/pony/861746 mere minutes before this thread? Quit trying to play the victim here.


What behavior? You told a joke that I found gross, but instead of talking to me about the comment you flew off the handle like a petulant child and accused me of insulting you. Then you played the victim while screaming about "Rule 0".


>you flew off the handle like a petulant child
Give it a break already, Manley.


What do you mean by this? I'm sick of his behavior. Do you want me to link the comments he's been making toward me today?


>If i can't get some kind of protection from his abuse i will have to go.
Just write a GreaseMonkey script to filter out his posts.

>What do you mean by this?
Stop using inflammatory language.  Start making an honest attempt to obey Rule Zero.  Realize that neither you nor LP are completely blameless in this matter.  If you don't see anything you've done is wrong, then you're not thinking hard enough.


I didn't. I might have worded my response of "gross" to him better, having to meticulously explain that I was calling his joke gross and not him gross. And I'm not violating rule 0. I'm being far more civil with him than he has been with me, because I'm keeping a level head.


>I didn't.
"you flew off the handle like a petulant child" is inflammatory.  Do you really not see this?


How else should I describe how he's acting?
We are kind of ignoring the real big elephant in the room here for the sake of civility, but I'm still going to say he's acting immaturely.


>How else should I describe how he's acting?
LP had already acknowledged (that he acted poorly) in the post that you responded to.  There was no need to shove his nose in it.


This isn't an isolated incident. I've tried to make peace with this guy on numerous occasions, but he's constantly having these emotional outbursts and trying to paint me as the villain. Over a single comment in a thread about sexy cartoon characters... It's ridiculous and this needs to be addressed. He can't keep on with this vendetta against me and nobody else.


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I think LP has a valid point in complaining, because not too long ago I shared his views about Rule Zero, and I do personally think you've been rude to each other.

Direct insults aren't acceptable. That isn't okay. And I don't want you to think it is. As far as I know, that's never been okay. Jokes, misunderstandings, arguments, and inflammatory opinions are not insults and do not usually infringe on Rule Zero.

That being said, LC has all but directly admitted to crying, and Manley is clearly in a great deal of emotional turmoil. Perhaps an apology and civility on both sides is not out of the question still?


I'm willing to civilly discuss this and apologize if necessary.



I think calling LP petulant, in this particular instance, is going too far. He is attempting to do right by him, as are you by yourself. I cannot force you to apologize, or to be sorry, but I do think both of your behaviors have transcended from bickering and on to personal attacks.

I will ask the rest of the mods for their opinions on this.


I apologize for saying he was acting like "a petulant child" and for saying his behavior was "childish". That was a... poor attempt at civility by avoiding the aforementioned elephant in the room.


I'm sure LP would appreciate that apology most, but thank you.

I do think the majority of this is misunderstanding, and a clash of personalities. We try to intervene only when it's necessary, when there are direct insults or attacks.

I wish I could offer more advice, but aggressively disagreeing with one another isn't a violation of Rule Zero. The rule may need written to a more clear standard.


yet again Manley abuses mods attempt to be unbiased and civil ...


What are you even talking about?


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Whats fun here is that there's some truth to "petulant child" and i was amused by it.  I really don't want any apology for that.

I haven't made any personal attacks on Manley.  I just want him to stop slamming people all the time.  It's unnecessary.  If he wants to express that the joke is gross he can say so without calling me gross and then pretexting that he didn't when i said thats rude and trying to explain how he wasn't rude when he was.

Further i don't wanna ever hafta see such outrageous double-disparagement as saying Noonim's homeschooling explains everything about his behavior and then trying to justify it.  That's just so not cool and i don't care who it was said about, my offense is real.

But petulant child IS kinda funny.  I dunno maybe it's just too true to be upset about.

Btw if i could get everyone itt to capitalize my name correctly, it's "lp".  Since i'm petulant and all.



Regardless of whether you think it's funny, calling you petulant was an insult and thus against the rules that you wanted enforced. Sorry, lp.


I already talked about the home-schooling thing with Noonim. You were not involved in that discussion. At all. You don't need to be Ponyville's white knight, you know. That's part of the issue I take with this. You getting offended FOR other people.

As for the other thing, the way you reacted is what exacerbate the situation. You accused me of calling you gross when that wasn't my intent, and then you ran with that assumption and have been for the past day or so. We probably could have solved that issue with a single conversation if you had just asked "Are you calling me gross? Because that's kind of hurtful." But you didn't do that. You accused and assumed and refused to listen to me. You're still doing it. You're saying I "pretexting that I didn't". You don't know and can't know my inner thoughts or intentions. Yet you assume the worst. It's upsetting.


This is my point.  If whether i cared about the petulant child thing is considered unacceptable then insulting both the concept of homeschooling itself as well as behavior does involve me.

Im autistic.  I only made productive use of public education because of extensive work my mom and sister did with me in the years before school.  I have a foundation of homeschooling and disparaging remarks like that have everything to do with me.

That you dish it out constantly without regard for the feelings of others is the point here.  Dismissing me as not being hurt and just calling me more names is simply unconscionable.

Still on with the pretext you didnt call me gross huh.  Figures.  Of course thats my fault for "assuming" words mean what the words you said say.  Not a thought on your mind to take responsibility for what you said, it's the one who you said them to's fault.  Nice extra insult.


Well if you had actually read the rest of the thread, I explained what I meant to Noonim and we handled the situation maturely.

There is no pretext. I'm telling you that the way you are choosing to interpret what I said is wrong and not what I meant.


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And i've heard it all and im convinced otherwise.  You have vehemently attacked me for being offended and i think that is at best callous and deeply selfish.  

What exactly do you hope to accomplish in my thread?  Convince everyone of your innocense?  Prove you are right and i'm wrong?  What are you willing to sacrifice to accomplish being right?

I'll be clear what i'm trying to accomplish here.  I want it to stop.  No more calling people names, no more casual insults about their education or whatever.  When someone makes a mistake, they should own up to it not deny the results.  

That doesn't seem like it should be so hard.  Should it be?  I don't think it should be such a difficult thing.  Why is it?

I appreciate your validation of my complaint.  I don't understand why civility is so difficult.  I'd apologize if it would help and i have many times and it never has, and yes i have cried and not in that nice way i like from watching pony.  I've never understood why saying "don't step on me" is considered a "vendetta".  If it seems it's against him alone, it's because no one else here has ever treated me this way.

I come here to post happy ponies and get emotional support by socializing with others.  Like many here, my life is challenging and hard to cope with.  I don't come here to hunt people.  I have no energy left to carry any kind of "vendetta" and i just want to have a nice time with my friends without getting bullied or name-called or being told to mind my own busines as it happens to others right in front of me.  Who comes here to make trouble on purpose?  What sense would that make?



I want to be clear I sympathize and deeply desire you to find peace and happiness here, but I do need to uphold the rules, regardless of personal feelings.

I hope that the good outweighs the bad.



>And i've heard it all and I'm convinced otherwise

So basically your'e saying you are refusing to actually discuss this with me and come to an understanding. You can't just decide I meant something or intended something when I'm telling you, directly, that that wasn't the case.

I HOPED to come to an understanding with you, and get you to stop hounding me. I can stop using certain words to describe you or discussing certain topics with you, but if someone ELSE has a problem with something I've said to THEM, then THEY need to talk to me about it. You're not Ponyville's White Knight. You don't need to protect other posters.


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The fudge is Rule Zero anyways?



It's called Rule 1, now. It is the rule regarding respecting other posters.

"Rule 1. Please keep posts generally respectful towards others"



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her's a thing.
We can pretend to know what defines being successful, but you can ban me for being dismissive of this discussion
because that's inherently disrespectful towards OP



I'm currently trying to discuss Rule 1 with the other moderators, as I don't think it's particularly helpful as it is right now. We need to arrive at a consensus on that before any changes are/aren't made, but I promise your criticism is being taken into account.



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Well, I directly experienced it and it was what it was.  You can criticize me for not discussing it with you when in fact my attempt to do so was met with indignation and vitriol as you attempted to squash my feelings in the way that you addressed me.  If that's not what happened in your opinion, that's still the factual reality of what I experienced.

Further, as I explained, words directed to another can offend other people for example if I used a racial slur for black people against anyone, it would offend you and I find your ongoing accusation that I am offended because I am wrong and therefore not offended, or not offended and trying to cause trouble as a "white knight", to be in and of itself deeply disrespectful and dismissive of my feelings.  Whether you intend that or not, which I am not assuming.  It's how it comes across to me, and that you cannot rebut because it is simply true.

Fortunately, I seem to be wearing a thicker skin today so I no longer care.  I already regret having said anything, and I accept that it's not going to accomplish anything anyway because no one, least of all you, will hold you accountable for your words followed by circular evasions to any attempt to discuss it with you, unless you are able to reach the conclusion that no one got hurt and you got away with your careless hurtful words yet again.

Notice I said "careless" not deliberate.  Somehow I am convinced that you don't mean to be such an unpleasant person.  But my point has never been that you are unconscionably mean and nasty on purpose (or if it ever was, then I was wrong and I don't remember it anymore), but has been that you hurt my feelings and you demonstrate a lack of concern about having done so, and then attempt to force me to take the blame for what you have done to me.  I dunno, as I've said before maybe it IS all my fault.  I should probably not be here to be so easily damaged.

Regardless, today I don't care anymore.  Other than regretting the debacle that I caused trying to make a stand on this issue.  I know I should just let it roll off, and today it has.  Yesterday, it was different.

I really would appreciate if you at least try to listen to someone whose feelings are hurt and make a genuine attempt to understand how your words were involved instead of always having to be right about it no matter the cost.  Because you are not right, Manley.  You can try and convince yourself that you should be held harmless for what you have caused, and maybe you can convince others.  But you can never convince me, and I firmly believe that you are not incapable of being less offensive in your method of communication.  It has often been my position that people letting you get away with it day in and day out is as big a disservice to you as it is to others on this site.  You are receiving positive reinforcement for things you shouldn't be, and I suppose it's not surprising you can be surprised that someone actually stands up to you and says Hey That Hurt instead of laughing it off.  You don't live in a vacuum and I acknowledge this is probably just as unpleasant for you as it is for me.  Which I do regret btw.  I do not intend to make your time here worse.  It just seems to be a natural progression of our dynamic.

But whatever.  Do what you will, and I'll try to stay out of your way from now on.  What isn't your fault is that I am so crappy at letting things that shouldn't offend me, considering the source, hurt my feelings.

For example,
You can never offend me Artee.  I don't know why.  Maybe it's cuz I love you as a fan of G3, as a hardworking, self-doubting sarcastic but deeply caring father struggling to deal with health and work problems.  Or maybe I just love your attitude, but probably not that cuz your attitude sucks.  But then so does mine.  At any rate, it's puzzling that there is nothing you could ever say to me that would genuinely hurt my feelings (unless you meant to and you never have) while inadvertent grumpiness from Manley grates my nerves to the point I'm willing to curl up and cry in between rage-aholic typing to the mods here.

In conclusion since less than an hour after posting this thread I've regretted it and my behavior in the days leading up to it.  Somehow, no one has decided I'm sufficiently in the wrong to warn or ban me about it, which is probably as much a negligence of the rule against disrespectful conduct as not cracking down on anyone else, but I still feel awful.

So, whatev.  Ponyville is as Ponyville does, and each time I've wanted to stomp away and never come back, I crawl back anyway and sometimes I meet someone I value who I would have missed if I had gone forever.  So I'll probably continue to be here, and I'll probably continue to be disruptive and hurt and unhappy and dissatisfied.  But I'll hopefully also bring something positive enough to be worth putting up with a lost pony, and when that's no longer the case I hope the staff has the gumption to take out the trash that won't take itself out.

Until then, Mr. Manley, I'll see you on /pony/.


See, that's another problem. You are so emotionally unstable that it's impossible to know what is going to set you off and what you're suddenly going to stop caring about. I can't do what you ask because it's unreasonable. Even someone who doesn't like me like Noonim was able to calmly discuss my comment, while you had a temper tantrum about it. I can't deal with that kind of time. If you can't control yourself enough to interact with other people, I fail to see how that's my fault.

I can't control what you ASSUME my words mean, especially when it's clear you are looking to find the worst. And I can't control how you react. Does no one else see a problem with this?


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Thread is being locked on request of OP.

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