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 No.749

What are Townhall's thoughts on this kind of portrayal?

 No.750

File: 1562873830781.jpg (75.67 KB, 500x575, 20:23, D5psAJ2.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google


 No.751

>>749
I kind of agree with what the video says. Especially when it comes to the double-standard. Joking about sexual assault against women in a similar matter wouldn't be allowed.

 No.753

There were many many examples of rape/assault jokes showcased in that video, but the assumption of their purpose or why people find them funny seemed a bit off.  There were some leaps between the joke and the cultural significance of the joke that didn't really clear the pole.

Further, there was another leap from the now already precarious standing about the origin of these jokes into the effects of these jokes on society.  It was overall very reminiscent about stuff like the campaigns against violent video games.  There's a thematic link between cause and effect, but the link itself has no substance or proof.

Rape and sexual assault against men is a real problem, including prison rape, but they did not come about due to these jokes.  Rather, I would posit the jokes came about because of those problems.  Just based on how ubiquitious these jokes are, I think it's unfair to say that exposure to these jokes has normalized the problems when all the people fighting against it have also been exposed to these jokes.  It just doesn't connect for me.

 No.755

>>753
So a couple of things.

I wasn't asking what people thought of the thesis of the video, but it's of course fine if you want to respond to that, since it's a part of the material brought in. I was more interested in what people thought about the portrayals themselves.

>Rape and sexual assault against men is a real problem, including prison rape, but they did not come about due to these jokes.  Rather, I would posit the jokes came about because of those problems
What would it take for you to believe that it was a reciprocal relationship? What kind of evidence or testimony would you require?

 No.756

>>755
>I wasn't asking what people thought of the thesis of the video, but it's of course fine if you want to respond to that, since it's a part of the material brought in. I was more interested in what people thought about the portrayals themselves.

That's very fair.  In my head those are very similar answers still, but to comment on the concept of sexual ideas used as jokes without any input from the video I would compare it to murdering a dog in a film to prove that someone is the bad guy.  It's surprisingly common, it's actually the entire plot to John Wick, but it's really really low tier as far as writing goes.  You've got a bad guy, how is he bad?  Well he hates puppies so here's some shots of an adorable dog and here's him post-villain in pieces with the blood all over.  Instantly the audience goes "I can't believe you murdered a puppy, this villain has to die." which is fine if your villain is a one dimensional robot for the protag to beat up on, which is all he's gonna be if you resort to dog murder.

Jokes about rape are pretty similar.  I think I put them a step above just saying "poop" on the comedy scale, but overall it really just relays very little information, it has no originality, and it reeks of someone who's completely out of material.

>What would it take for you to believe that it was a reciprocal relationship? What kind of evidence or testimony would you require?

Because it's a bit of a loose concept anyway I think what I'd actually want to set as the bar would be based on actions.  Not just "there is a link" and trying to prove it for the sake of proving it.  But "we should do this" and opening the floor for a discussion of risks and possibilities.

What we have so far is just a sort of vague "stop saying rape jokes", which as I've sort of implied isn't a bad idea anyway because they aren't very good jokes.  And if that's the only call to action there is then I guess it already passes the bar.  Please do stop with the rape jokes, they aren't actually very funny anyway, we suffer no loss.

If the call to action is stronger, if we start talking bans and boycotts, that's when I'm going to get more hesitant.  I'd really need 100% certifiable evidence that if we banned rape joke then the rape would stop.  Which some might argue it's too high a bar, but I think there are just less invasive ways to approach the problem that don't punish third parties.  I think rape and sexual assault of men or women is solvable without addressing jokes.

 No.757

>>756
>That's very fair.  In my head those are very similar answers still, but to comment on the concept of sexual ideas used as jokes without any input from the video I would compare it to murdering a dog in a film to prove that someone is the bad guy.  It's surprisingly common, it's actually the entire plot to John Wick, but it's really really low tier as far as writing goes.  You've got a bad guy, how is he bad?  Well he hates puppies so here's some shots of an adorable dog and here's him post-villain in pieces with the blood all over.  Instantly the audience goes "I can't believe you murdered a puppy, this villain has to die." which is fine if your villain is a one dimensional robot for the protag to beat up on, which is all he's gonna be if you resort to dog murder.
The video was about rape played for laughs? This is sort of a different type of rape-portrayal you're tapping into here, I think.

>Not just "there is a link" and trying to prove it for the sake of proving it.  But "we should do this" and opening the floor for a discussion of risks and possibilities.
You kind of have to establish a link before you can discuss a solution, though, don't you?

>If the call to action is stronger, if we start talking bans and boycotts, that's when I'm going to get more hesitant.  I'd really need 100% certifiable evidence that if we banned rape joke then the rape would stop.
I'm not for a ban myself, either, but I think I could be persuaded to adopt boycots.

I think there is some pretty clear evidence that indicates that reducing the amount of these kinds of jokes could very likely also reduce the amount of rape through a mechanism of not normalizing it's use as a punitive measure or as something which can be laughed off.

 No.758

>>757
>The video was about rape played for laughs? This is sort of a different type of rape-portrayal you're tapping into here, I think.

I was really tired so that probably came out a bit wrong, but the gist is that "rape played for laughs" doesn't generate much laughter from me.  That's my opinion on it.

>>757
>You kind of have to establish a link before you can discuss a solution, though, don't you?

No, not at all.  The problems are not rape jokes.  The problems are men not being taken seriously when they bring up sexual assault charges or unimpeded prison rape.  We can discuss all sorts of solutions for those problems.  If you formed a link between these problems and rape jokes then rape jokes become a possible avenue to a solution.

>I think there is some pretty clear evidence

Well what is the clear evidence?  'cause I think we've looked at the same things and come to opposing conclusions.

 No.759

>>758
>I was really tired so that probably came out a bit wrong, but the gist is that "rape played for laughs" doesn't generate much laughter from me.  That's my opinion on it.
Oh, I hope you're feeling better! Yeah, it's not so funny. For me, personally, movies and shows that use these kinds of strategies generally don't have a great appeal to me.

>No, not at all.  The problems are not rape jokes.  The problems are men not being taken seriously when they bring up sexual assault charges or unimpeded prison rape.
Wouldn't it be fair, perhaps, then to say that the rape jokes are a problem secondary to the real world situations or that they are perhaps symptomatic of the real world situations?

>Well what is the clear evidence?  'cause I think we've looked at the same things and come to opposing conclusions.
Clear evidence to me is the wealth of studies of depictions of violence and sexual violence and the impacts they have on people's attitudes and likelyhood to support agressive or sexually agressive behavior, or view it as acceptable or not a big deal.

There's a lot of great science taking it's origins in things like social learning theory, which is where I draw my ideas from.

 No.781

Huh..

At first I didn't like it because I felt like he was trying to say "you can't joke about that". But actually he made some good points and explained, and I do actually agree with the majority of what he said. Took him a minute to get to the point though, and that almost made me click away.

 No.782

>>781
So you almost clicked away, not because of anything the video was actually saying, but because you made assumptions about what he was going to say before he got to his point?

 No.783

>>782
That was my first reaction, yes. But I also realized I was probably making assumptions and I should probably wait a few more minutes until I know for sure that I understand what he is saying.

And my assumptions were wrong which left me pleasantly surprised. I suppose if I were to try and say why I had those assumptions in the first place, it would be because a lot of people who are rallying behind the feminist movement (but not actually fighting for equal rights, but to put men down) have argued in a similar manner about rape jokes and jokes about assaulting women. This had that same feeling to it at first until he further explained his point.

 No.785

>>781
That's pretty cool!

It is a long video for sure.

>>783
The reason why it has the same feeling for you, is probably because Jonathan Mcintosh is a feminist himself, and uses feministic theory to examine troubling tropes about masculinity.

 No.793

>>759
>Wouldn't it be fair, perhaps, then to say that the rape jokes are a problem secondary to the real world situations or that they are perhaps symptomatic of the real world situations?

I do think it would be fair to say they're symptomatic.  I think I did say that, even.  A lot of humor is symptomatic, in fact, and serves to highlight problems.  Problems like prison rape or men not being taken seriously when they bring up sexual assault.

>Clear evidence to me is the wealth of studies of depictions of violence and sexual violence and the impacts they have on people's attitudes and likelyhood to support agressive or sexually agressive behavior, or view it as acceptable or not a big deal.

Well I haven't seen any of that, so I can't really comment on it.

 No.795

>>793
>Well I haven't seen any of that, so I can't really comment on it.

I haven't either. Most people I know have enough common sense to know the difference, and the only person I used to know who "joked" about sexual assault in a distasteful and inappropriate way later turned out to be an actual rapist and molester.

The types of jokes he would make, and honestly, brag about even, was that he liked to "get straight men drunk and turn them gay".

 No.796

>>793
I can post a few of these. You won't have access to all of these on your own, but I do, so I can relay information if there's anything you're curious about.

Individual studies
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-006-9085-0
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254370352_The_Confluence_Model_of_Sexual_Aggression
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-011-0082-6
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0886260512441078

Meta analysis of general violence in media
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704015/
(this one confirms a causal link between media violence and attitudes towards violence through the compilation of longitudinal studies)

Background material
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_learning_theory
https://www.psych.ucla.edu/sites/default/files/documents/other/confluence%20model%20published.pdf
(note that this one attempts to model attitudes, which is what is shown to be affected by media in previous studies)

 No.797

>>796
In response to your second link:

>However, our response should not be to panic and keep our children “indoors” because the “streets” out there are dangerous. The streets also provide wonderful experiences and help youth become the kinds of adults we desire. Rather our response should be to understand the dangers on the streets, to help our children understand and avoid the dangers, to avoid exaggerating the dangers which will destroy our credibility, and also to try to control exposure to the extent we can.

I really agree with this and think that is something important that many parents forget to keep in mind.

 No.798

>>797
Me too. Understanding danger and how to deal with it is more efficient than trying to avoid danger, when danger is ubiquituous.

 No.804

File: 1563203264925.png (233.02 KB, 1200x800, 3:2, 48648.png) ImgOps Google

One of the main reasons why i'm terrified of prison.

I'm too much of a coward when it comes to confrontation.

 No.816

I think that it is hard to find any form of comedy that is in no way inappropriate.

As such, we're gonna have to rank how much comedy is going to be inappropriate enough that it warrants bans or boycots.
And I really don't want to see comedy be removed from our society.

As such, you can boycot all you want, but I will remain open to all such forms of comedy.

 No.821

>>816
So you don't think comedy has any bearing on society or what is or isn't considered acceptable?

 No.823

>>816
I think there are comedians that are capable of delivering entirely unproblematic sets.

For example:
Dimitri Martin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqoSjZmPl7I

But it's not that I or anyone thinks it's not okay to be a little edgy, I think. But making fun of rape victims for being too weak, is taking it too far, in the same way that laughing at someone being tortured would be taking it too far.

 No.829

>>823
> For example: Dimitri Martin

That little bit still contained jokes about drowning, car crashes and shooting kids with blowdarts.

You could argue those are not as bad as rape, but somewhere they still thrive on pretty bad things.

 No.834

>>829
The difference is that these jokes aren't framed in a problematic way. Dimitri doesn't lead the audience to the conclusion that kids, people that drown or that dogs or driverless cares are somehow lesser beings or bad in some way, in the way that the portrayed rape jokes reduce male victims of rape to the category of weak men and cowards. Arguably, his joke implies that dogs aren't intelligent enough to hold conversations, but that seems sort of not like a big problem.

Yes, car crashes are unfortunate, and yes, shooting kids with blowdarts is really dumb, and yes, drowning in a pool would be unfortunate and make for a weird story, but these are fictional characters, right. The fact that something unfortunate happens to them, isn't a problem. What would be a problem, is if a told joke influences attitudes of the people hearing it in a negative way. Such as could occur, if a joke implies male victims of rape are weak or cowards, yeah.

 No.836

>>834
> if a joke implies male victims of rape are weak or cowards, yeah.
"Rape" jokes don't imply that necessarilly either

 No.838

I generally agree that these sort of portrayals do reinforce some frankly damaging attitudes towards male victims of sexual assault.

Now, I don't believe that such portrayals actually encourage assault. I don't think media can incite action (unless that encitement is explicit and overt) but media does influence attitudes, which in turn effects how people approach those who are male victims of sexual assault.

 No.853

>>836
Right you are, but in this thread we're talking about jokes that make fun of male rape victims.

So notice, that I am not saying, and have never said, that one cannot tell jokes about rape without doing this. Rape jokes can be empowering or humanizing.

>>838
I like that take.

The reason I personally feellike I do is that I've read a number of studies that indicate that holding certain attitudes can increase the likelyhood of sexual assault, and since we consider jokes like these to be influencing attitudes regarding rape and sexual assault, it seems to me I have to believe that it can influence behavior in some ways too.


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