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Well I might not have agreed with everything being said, I was still interested in hearing the different view points.

Minty, not sure if you browse townhall, and you don't have to reveal yourself in the thread, but if you would like I am interested in continuing the discussion and hearing the different views.


One thing I wonder about invitro meat, is it if could be made or grown in a lab, without having to use the animal at all.

We humans are pretty amazing at creating things, and I wonder if this isn't already being experimented with. It would sure save the need to have land space for the animal, and in effect maybe also help the environment.


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I think it will definitely happen in the future, at least for burgers.  For steaks, it seems getting the marbling right is very hard.

I looked into investment opportunities a couple of months ago, but I didn't find any publicly traded companies working mostly on lab-grown meat.


>I looked into investment opportunities a couple of months ago, but I didn't find any publicly traded companies working mostly on lab-grown meat.

Damn that's a shame. I want some 3D printer meat and veggies.


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>Damn that's a shame. I want some 3D printer meat and veggies.
Existing meat companies are doing R&D in this... but there is no way to invest only in that research; you'd need to buy the stock of the whole company.  But as a consumers, well the lab-grown meat is coming eventualy.


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> well the lab-grown meat is coming eventualy.

But it might not if there isn't a demand for it.



I think demand doesn't effect whether or not a product is developed, it effects whether or not a product continues to be produced after it's initially introduced to the market.


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>interested in hearing the different view points

At home, I eat little real meat.  Some fake meat.  I eat real meat in fast food.  Probably could do less of that.

I know some humans need to eat lots of meat, especially bacon.

>continuing the discussion
I'm not sure how much cross-over between boards is allowed.  I will say, you will have to explain what you want to discuss here, to be safe.


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(Mint horse)
Sorry, I tend to get severe lapses of depression whenever I talk about this with non-vegans. The fact that the vast, vast majority of people just don’t care about the fact that they contribute to the torture and death of animals every time they have a meal, and see it as no more controversial than eating a carrot, to the point where they’ll just nonchalantly talk about murdering and torturing animals as if it were nothing really sucks the soul out of me. And as I said this isn’t just a strongly held belief my, it’s something that I’ve felt since I was extremely young, so in many ways it’s instinctual.

It’s not really what’s done to the animals that fucks with me. I have a really sick sense of humour, to the point where if you show me a video of an animal or even a human being tortured I’m more likely to laugh at it than anything else. Again what really affects me is the fact that no one cares about actual suffering of animals, to the point where they think it’s okay to contribute to it for nothing more than because they find bacon tasty. It’s one thing to laugh at a video, it’s another to actually contribute to the suffering of the sentient beings in said video and not even laugh, not even care about. I don’t how to describe that other then selective sociopathy, and it scares me that so many people are capable of it on such an extreme level.

My thread was shut down because someone tried to suggest that rape could be justified in certain circumstances. Imagine if a whole thread of people were talking about rape in the same way you guys were talking about the killing and torture of animals. Imagine if that’s how ~99% of people felt and talked about it, and whenever you talked about it you were called things like “holier than thou” and chastised for lightly insulting someone who was nonchalantly talking about raping someone IRL. Can you see how that would affect someone’s mental health? That’s how I feel about it.

I hope this doesn’t come off as virtual signalling. I know I’m not going to get much sympathy from people and that no one cares enough to appreciate my supposed “virtual signalling,” so I can assure you that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m just trying to explain how I feel.

Ask me any questions you want, but I don’t think I want to get into a big discussion or argument about this like last time, because this severely negatively affects my mental health.


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Hello, Mellow Raccoon.

>they find bacon tasty
That's a hard one.  While I am respectful of human authorities for humans, since their common empathy makes them enforce in ways that are helpful, does that make their actions toward animals justice?  Many humans need to eat lots of bacon, but perhaps it is not their right.

noun: virtue signalling

the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.

OK.  I think it is a good character to be nice to animals and avoid killing them.  Not sure why anyone would want to publicly express immoral opinions, so sounds like virtual signaling is OK.


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>Many humans need to eat lots of bacon, but perhaps it is not their right.
No one needs to eat bacon. Bacon is pure shit and has absolutely no nutritional value. People need to eat bacon about as much as they need to eat chocolate, they don’t.

>so sounds like virtual signaling is OK.
Yeah, but I wasn’t virtue  signalling. Virtue signalling implies that I was looking for praise, despite the fact that I was only expressing how I felt. I know that no one is going to praise me, and I’m not looking for it.


>virtue signalling

Actually you kind of are, you're pretty much calling people murders and sociopaths  to make yourself look like you have the moral high ground.


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I’m not doing that to take the moral high ground. I’m just saying it because it’s accurate. Again I don’t expect people to empathise with me here.

Your food choices cause the death of animals, and you don’t care about it. What else would you call that?


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>absolutely no nutritional value
Well, I'm no expert on nutrition.  I can only claim to not having killed myself through improper diet, but I'm aware bacon is mostly grease, fat, an salt.  I take the idea of need from adults appearing upset at the suggestion that bacon may be taken away or limited, and this mostly comes from watching online posts.  Perhaps it is needed for a reason beyond nutrition?  Culture, perhaps.  Maybe you understand better.

>not looking for [praise]; therefore not virtual signaling.

OK, noted.  I'm sorry I said it was good character to be nice to animals.  Belay that, I guess, I did not understand the expectation.

Even though you are mellow by name, I have a feeling you will find me too mellow on this issue.  I think I have trouble with the scale, or perhaps I am just lazy.


Yes, but you can do that without calling people a sociopath and murder
and on top of that you say they're reason are invalid then go back to calling them murders and sociopaths because you can't really prove there reasons are wrong, so you attack they're moral code.


>I think I have trouble with the scale
Some claim that vegan diet is healthy, but it is just as easy to eat junk food and get fat on a vegan diet.  


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Oh, I guess there's that sort of scale too.  It does say I'm a bit fat, but it's hard to be bothered by it too much.  I've come to believe that any diet I try will not be satisfactory generally, and even if there were a magic diet that all would approve, I'd likely not have the money or will-power for it, so I eat...whatever...


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>I take the idea of need from adults appearing upset at the suggestion that bacon may be taken away or limited, and this mostly comes from watching online posts.
Most of those people are just joking or being extremely hyperbolic, and even if they’ve not that still doesn’t justify what they put animals through to get said bacon.

>you attack they're moral code.
Yeah, because my beliefs are based on morality.

Anyway I need to go out. I’ll see you guys later.


>Yeah, because my beliefs are based on morality.

Yes, you're subjective version of morality.




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So I was wondering if, because you said you don't want any animals to be exploited, what you thought about lab grown/made meat.

Not like, a piece taken off the animal without killing it, but meat made in a container of some kind.

I'm not sure if you have seen it, but there is a video of someone who has a large wound on his had, and they use what I believe is a 3d printer to heal the wound, using the man's own DNA or skin I think.

If we have that technology for ourselves, and it's possible to just...build a steak, would you find that morally sound?


Meat has valuable proteins which are important for the development of both are muscles and our brains, and it is theorized that eating meat is what allowed our forefathers to become more intelligent.

Yet even if you do not believe those theories, all omnivores quite simply have an evolutionary advantage to herbivores and carnivores. Namely in the variety of foods we can eat, and therefore the variety of nutrients and proteins we have access to. It is undeniably one of the reasons why humanity has managed to thrive into the undisputed rulers of the Earth.

Today? I still like eating meat and I feel no guilt over it. Stress hormones gives the flesh of animals a different taste which is unappealing to most people, so many animals bred for food live quite happy lives and are humanely butchered with a quick and painless death.

I am however severely opposed to the uprising of Halal butchery in Europe, because it involves intentionally making the animal slowly bleed to death. It is an inhumane practise that makes the animal suffer needlessly.

As for veganism and vegetarianism, you do you I guess. Just don't force your ways on me. I don't appreciate that. Let me eat my meat.


I don't think Mint was trying to force anyone to be vegan. I think the thread just didn't go as expected.



I wasn't addressing anybody in particular, I just meant in general.


Ah ok


>As for veganism and vegetarianism, you do you I guess. Just don't force your ways on me. I don't appreciate that. Let me eat my meat.
I'm not one to force my world view or morality on anyone else, but isn't that what almost all of politics and governance is? Are you so politically neutral that you don't force your views on anyone else?


Human states justly enforce on humans.  I think the poster is talking about enforcement by individuals, which, when opposed by the state, is not justice.  For example, kidnapping so that diet could be regulated.


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I suppose lab grown meat is ethical, but I personally think it’s rather disgusting, so I won’t be eating any time soon.

Also, nice 5s

>variety of nutrients and proteins we have access to.
Name a nutrient or protein you can’t get on a vegan diet.

>many animals bred for food live quite happy lives and are humanely butchered with a quick and painless death.
2/3/50 billion are factory farmed, and most of the rest don’t have it much better, to be honest. Although in first world countries the number of animals in factory farms is significantly higher.

>Just don't force your ways on me. I don't appreciate that. Let me eat my meat.
Why is it for that no one can force you to change your diet for the better, but you force thousands of animals to be killed and tortured throughout your lifetime? Who is the one that’s “being forced” in this situation.


>Name a nutrient or protein you can’t get on a vegan diet.
IIRC, vegans need to supplement to get enough creatine.


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Creatine isn’t an essential nutrient.


Okay, but a deficiency of creatine lowers cognitive performance and muscle endurance.  I remember a study showing that vegetarians needed to supplement with creatine to get optimal cognitive performance, while meat eaters already had enough from their diet.


Huh, that explains why mint always tired and makes alot of mistakes.


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Apparently the liver naturally produces creatine.

>Creatine is not essential in your diet, as it can be produced by your liver. However, vegetarians have lower amounts of creatine in their muscles (29Trusted Source).


Nah, I just don’t get enough sleep.


>Apparently the liver naturally produces creatine
Yeah, it produces enough that you won't die, but you're still deficient and, for optimal performance, you need to supplement or eat meat.


see what I mean a sign your not thinking properly.
You don't give yourself enough sleep.


I'm sure the perfect, optimal diet includes meat. But zero people on the planet eat a perfect diet anyway, so I don't think it's necessary to fuss over details like "suboptimal performance". As far as educational purpose is concerned, it's useful information, but I see no practical use for it.


>purpose is concerned, it's useful information, but I see no practical use for it.
The practical use of this information is to supplement with creatine if you're on a vegetarian diet.  (As a side note, even if on a diet that includes red meat, if you do weight lifting, supplementing with creatine is still helpful.)


Sorry I'm being a bit obtuse. My point is if I wanted better muscle growth and performance, we already know that creatine can do that regardless of your diet.

And for the cognitive aspect, I read through the study myself, and it looked super weak. The sample size is so small, I feel like the margin of error must be enormous. Maybe this is how all studies are run, I don't read through many. But it felt kinda meh.

I've been vegetarian for a few years, no creatine supplement. I'm actually starting to care about muscle for once so I think I'll try starting to supplement. And I'll find some way to to test my cognitive ability before and maybe a month after. I'm not against the idea there will be measurable improvement, I'm just skeptical (for the cognitive side). Trying it myself could be interesting. I just need to figure out how best to measure it...


A few things to note

Studies that use biomechanical outcomes, are as a rule, more reliable even at lower sample sizes, than studies that use more subjective outcome measures. This is part of the reason why medical science can often get away with really low sample sizes.

The only non-contentious cognitive effect of creatine that seems measurable so far on healthy adults is memory improvements.

The body has a natural desired level of creatine. Negative feedback loops will drive down your natural production over time, returning it to normal when you stop supplementing.

High levels of creatine are not reccomended for those with renal diseases

Vegans and vegetarians tend to have a lower baseline due to not consuming any meat, and benefit more from supplementation.


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