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You can discuss what you want in this thread, but the main purpose of this thread is for support and love, because what's going on right now is awful.154 posts and 27 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
I don't want to put it on /pony/ because I know it will turn political, so please just keep the main purpose of the thread in mind while you post here.
One of my online friends had to evacuate their home. They live in Minneapolis. In the state next to my own, in a town I have actually drove through a few times, there are riots. In big cities in my own states, there are riots and vandalizing.
Getting caught up on incidential, personal racism is kind of silly when systemic racism is a much larger issue. When a black guy is racist against a white guy, that's between the two of them. When a white guy is racist against black people, that has much wider reaching implications because that guy is the CEO a huge company and guys just like him run every company in the country. Even if the racism of the guy in scenario 1 is just as a wrong as the racism of the guy in scenario 2, the guy in scenario 2 has much more POWER to act on his racism. It does not erase the racism of scenario 1, but scenario 1 is small and inconsequential compared to scenario 2. Why get hung up on it when solving scenario 2 is a much bigger deal? Choosing to combat scenario 1 is losing site of the bigger issues and choosing a ridiculous hill to die on that only makes you look like you don't care about how scenario 2 affects many more people.
Ok, you found one example. His death is tragic and uncalled for, I agree. Police brutality is terrible no matter who it happens to. But... why do you care about proving it happens to whites? Combating police brutality of blacks isn't going to suddenly make the police be like "OK, black people are off limits, only kill white people now!" Ending it will also help any white people being brutalized by the police. You're nitpicking the racial aspect when there is literally no need. Help stop police brutality and it raises all ships.
I am of the belief actions are flatly wrong, and you should not limit yourself in the condemnation of wrong, regardless on how 'large' you think it is.
Your attention is not so limited that you can only combat wrong one at a time, I'd say.
It's the same as in these riots. I have no trouble whatsoever condemning both the rioters, and the police. The police are worse, sure, but that does not mean the rioters aren't bad.> But... why do you care about proving it happens to whites?
Because there's this unfortunate distraction, I feel, to the larger problem of police brutality as though it is something that only happens because of racism.
I think police brutality is the default of our current system.
I do not think it is exclusive to black people. It seems to me that the problem isn't racism, it's authoritarianism that has granted police too much power and too little accountability.
Police should be held to a higher standard than regular citizens. They should not be getting any immunities, whether granted from unions or simple law makers.>Combating police brutality of blacks isn't going to suddenly make the police be like "OK, black people are off limits, only kill white people now!"
No, but my worry is "OK, we've put all our police through extensive sensitivity training, but they're still abusing our power, and nothing's really changed"
but that's not a video of the event, that's a clip of an event, from an agenda based media source.
i.e., the media. And as i've said, tiny individualized event, has to be used because there exactly isn't widespread action. No endless court cases against so-called antifa. Not many police reports either, in spite of how allegedly widespread these extremists are supposed to be.
you find it strange, because you haven't seen what i've seen, only what others have told you is true
you watch, are not involved in any of these things, have no context outside what you are told to believe and given to look at, and then you speak. don't watch, -see-. if you can point at media and call it biased, and then look at this and tell me this isn't worthless biased news, i have not much i can offer to you, squid
i already told you who i think these people are. a handful of disenfranchised young adults. conflating this misguided band of ragtags to a terrorist group is downright silly. this is a fake enemy, meant to give you fear: fear that is used to exert control over you.
in any case, i digress, i am derailing the thread.
i will not continue this tangent, but if you'd like to have the last word, neither shall i stop you.
Yes, it is a clip of the moment that Antifa came in during a speaking event.
What kind of context are you expecting? The video there does show them coming in after all. Pretty much had the whole thing. What do you want? Should I post the entire lecture?>. if you can point at media and call it biased, and then look at this and tell me this isn't worthless biased news
It is quite literally the event as it happens.
should I now dismiss of the murder of George Floyd, because it too is a recording of events as it happened? Should I declare the murder of George Floyd as biased media?
That's absurd. I could say that I have never personally seen police abuse their power, let alone murder a black man in cold blood
So, should I dismiss these events has nothing never happened? Should I then say "this is part of a biased media campaign to create an enemy"?
More or less, yes.
I find it very strange that they would say it does not exist when there's been plenty of videos of them in action.
But apparently video evidence is biased propaganda, so what do I know.
I'm kinda perusing this thread. I should be going to work, I guess this pattern of argument stands out.>>5459>If White people...rioted...would you show those people half as much as empathy as you are showing Black people?>Black people make up about 13% of the population, about 50% of killers, 34% of cop killers, and only 29% of people killed by cops.
Just, I guess, I see these kinds of things over and over again, around social media.
Basically saying, 'What about white people?!' (why are they being oppressed?) and 'Blacks behave badly, what do you expect?' (although we're not quite sure we can give a reason why).
Not really going to try to argue against, or anything.
>>5492>I guess basically, 'What about white people?!' (why are they being oppressed)
I would say the reason that is brought up so much is that nobody really seems to care when it happens to White people.
Add to that, and the proposed solutions being heavily influenced by the idea of racism do little to nothing to address the problem.
One that bothered me the most was suggesting we should have these communities only policed by minorities of those communities. I think that ignores the issue. The trouble here is police misconduct. And that is because of how little they are held to account, regardless call their race.>Blacks behave badly, what do you expect?' (although we're not quite sure we can give a reason why).
>>5494>Isn't that directly made worse by police killing black men
The percentage of black men killed by police is so small that is negligible as a cause of fatherlessness.>and the prison system incarcerating so many?
Hmm, I'm not sure which would be worse: growing up with no father around, or growing up with a father who is a criminal.
>>5495>The percentage of black men killed by police is so small that is negligible as a cause of fatherlessness.
Fair. The roughly 300 a year killed by police is still awful, because it should probably be zero, but statistically speaking 300 wouldn't have a major impact.>>5495>Hmm, I'm not sure which would be worse: growing up with no father around, or growing up with a father who is a criminal.
Growing up without a father would definitely be worse. Especially given what the state considers criminal.
To some degree, yes, though I would say it's not quite so significant as to be the primary driver. >>5495
I would personally think no father.
That is because those folk are more likely to know the consequences, to some degree.
My experience with criminals is that most of them regret starting crime, but find themselves effectively stuck in it.
Truthfully, I think they're is argument we me for forbidding companies from running back from checks on employees. Makes it exceptionally hard to find a job after you've been convicted. Even minor ones will see you booted
You mean the police killings of white people don't produce as large or prolonged unrest. I think that's accurate.>Fatherlessness
I'm aware of research that children raised by single-parents tend to do less well. Obviously there's a lot of implicits in that, and potential correlations, as families are not randomly assigned one or two parents.
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>>5496>Especially given what the state considers criminal.
OK, I'll agree with you there. Victimless """crimes""" like growing marijuana or manufacturing an unregistered NFA item shouldn't be punished by imprisonment.
More or less, yeah. I suspect it's because you can't really call it racism, so it holds less an emotional impact.
Big thing with fatherlessness two keep in mind is that even with nothing else, it lowers the household income. And that matters a whole lot.
I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone, but people respond more easily to what confirms their view, and there exists a view that mainstream systems of power in America are racially biased, and only racial equality is justice. Or at least, when some actions of injustice intersect more ideological triggers than others, they get more attention.>household income
Oh, sure. Probably there are studies that also look at outcomes versus household income. I doubt one parent who makes twice as much is equal to two parents with half as much income (each), but I'm sure money is a big part.
>>5493> is that nobody really seems to care when it happens to White people.
That is literally the only time people seem to care. This happens so often and so casually to black people that it has to be filmed and made undeniable for anyone to even recognize it as a crime. Just because you don't experience something doesn't mean it does not happen. >Fatherlessness
Ok, I want the statistics that show that black people experience more fatherlessness than other groups of people and that fatherlessness has a direct link to to criminal behavior.
I'm not so convinced. It seems to me the opposite is true.
But we've gone over that.
>>5502>Ok, I want the statistics that show that black people experience more fatherlessness than other groups of people
What search terms did you use that you were unable to find this information? I googled "fatherlessness statistics and race" and the first result (http://fathers.com/statistics-and-research/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/
) gave the following:>57.6% of black children, 31.2% of Hispanic children, and 20.7% of white children are living absent their biological fathers.>Source: Family Structure and Children’s Living Arrangements 2012. Current Population Report. U.S. Census Bureau July 1, 2012.
From what I have stated prior.
When it comes to the mainstream media, they do not seem to care when it is a white victim. Meanwhile, even in an instance of the justified shooting of a black person, they plaster it everywhere.
I disagree, as every bit of evidence I've seen coming out of that particular case suggests it was completely justified. Going well beyond the standard we require no less.
I would suggest that your own bigotry is at play here, if you would deny that evidence.
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>>5507>If you think Zimmerman was justified in shooting down an unarmed teenager,
You forgot the part about the 'unarmed teenager' bashing Zimmerman's head against the pavement.
So you think it was justified and that (after coming after Martin in the night after being told not to do so) he unfortunately had to take the life of an innocent person in self defense. Any normal person would be racked with guilt over having to kill someone like that, and wouldn't Oh, try to sell the weapon they used to do it on a white supremacist website as a trophy for thousands of dollars. (https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/18/us/george-zimmerman-gun-auction/index.html
) He sounds so upset he regrettably had to take a life there.
Also, don't accuse people of "bigotry". I didn't not accuses you of being a bigot. I accused you of having bias against black victims.
Which you clearly do. Which is why you think the news only cares when it's a black victim. But you haven't provided any evidence of this. >>5509
Please stop defending this guy.
I would personally feel no guilt whatsoever for killing the person attempting to bash my head into concrete.
And that's far as I am aware, Zimmerman followed the instructions of the 911 dispatcher. I will see if I can hunt down the image I had with a number of this stuff as well as sources when I get home, but as I recall Trayvon approached him, and as far as can be told initiated physical conflict.>I accused you of having bias against black victims.
that is called bigotry. More over, you insist further that I have bigotry, and am not simply convinced of the evidence by logical rationality.
you could disagree with my interpretation of the evidence without insisting that I am a bigot. But, seeing as you have no desire to, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever responding in kind of to you.
if it is acceptable for you to do it to me, it is acceptable for me to do it to you.
Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.
After YOU came after him in the dark for no reason when he was doing nothing. You are purposefully ignoring the point of view of the executed person here because it does not fit your narrative.
Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin, he ignored that instruction.
Honestly, seeing how you view this incident, I'm wondering if you somehow find a way to contrive all instances of black people being murdered as justified. Tell me, do you think the murder of George Floyd was justified?
I do not believe following somebody justifies bashing their head against concrete.
I'm surprised you think otherwise.>You are purposefully ignoring the point of view of the executed person here because it does not fit your narrative.
And you are ignoring the fact that he best Zimmerman head into the concrete.
I don't know why you seem so keen on ignoring this. you would think having your head bashed into concrete would be reason enough do desire to defend yourself.>Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin, he ignored that instruction.
I do not believe this is true, as last I recall, you could hear him stop in the call. I'll get back to you when I get home with the nice photo that had a lot of this.
It would not change the fact that he had his head bashed into concrete by Trayvon though>Tell me, do you think the murder of George Floyd was justified?
Obviously fucking not, and is this would be something you would know if you bother to you read anything I said throughout this entire thread.
But I guess honesty like that would hurt your narrative, wouldn't it?
If someone threatened me in the dark when I was walking home from buying candy, and I choose to defend myself from that person, it's good to know people like you think it's justifiable that the person who threatened me has the right to murder me in cold blood and face no penalty. It means that I should avoid a person like you at all costs because you think my life has no value. >I do not believe this is true,
Then prove it. >Obviously fucking not,
It's not obvious given your bias against black victims and your belief that white people somehow have it worse off when it comes to police brutality and that there is some sort of conspiracy to keep that "fact" secret. But it's good to know you can recognize murder when you see it and it's impossible for you to deny or skew the facts. If only someone had been there to record Martin's death, then you wouldn't be defending monsters.
If your response to someone following you is to bash their head against the concrete, I'd say the problem is you, not the person who had to defend themself from you.>Then prove it.>>5287
Here we go. Just remembered it was posted in the other thread.
Something to note is not it is not required to prove ones innocence. You are supposed to prove guilt. you were the one claiming that Zimmerman follow him when he wasn't supposed to, but you never bothered to prove that.
I guess it is a classic case of rules for thee but not for me.>and your belief that white people somehow have it worse off when it comes to police brutality
If I recall correctly, what I said was that nobody cares when it happens to White people. Not that it's worse. I stand by that claim. That's certainly seems to be my experience. You can disagree if you like, but I would appreciate it if you don't just assumed racism because I have the audacity to say that I never hear about cases on the mainstream news when it is a white person.>and that there is some sort of conspiracy to keep that "fact" secret.
I don't believe I ever said anything about a conspiracy. but I appreciate you fabricating my arguments for me. Totally an honest way to conduct yourself. Not at all scummy behavior.>If only someone had been there to record Martin's death, then you wouldn't be defending monsters.
I would say the fact that only one shot was fired, and Zimmerman sustain wounds sometime before that would be evidence enough.
But, I guess he's not black enough to be innocent, right?
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>>5513> I'll get back to you when I get home with the nice photo that had a lot of this.
This one? http://ponyville.us/townhall/src/1590613037542.jpg
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I'm going to take this as a lesson learned on my part that I cannot trust people to keep the spirit of a thread in mind while talking to one another.
I also recognize that I should have been more clear and concise in what I wanted out of the thread. I will have to be more careful with my wording when, or if, I made another thread.
That being said, I am pretty goddamn disappointed and angry in what this thread has become.
I asked for this thread to be about support and love. What it has turned into is people using it like their own personal stand to debate and argue with. This makes me very angry and disappointed, and unless by some miracle this thread does a 180 by the time I get up tomorrow morning, I'm going to request a lock and possibly just delete the fucking thing.
All I wanted out of this thread was to show a little love and support for the victims (the side nor political agenda should not fucking matter) who are being affected by all this. I just wanted to show them that despite all these awful things going on, whether or not anyone believes it is necessary or inevitable, we are here for you and keeping you in our thoughts.
I just wanted to show them some support.
I won't go on, because anything past this point is me talking from anger.
I'd hate to say it, but I think you missed the point of this board. It's a debate/discussion board, not a support board.
If your desire is just to support those who are struggling due to these events, which is completely commendable don't get me wrong, I think the best option is to make it on /pony/ and tell everyone to take the political aspect to /townhall/ and leave that thread for support.
Think it'd go smoother.
The natural flow of conversation often takes a thread off its originally plotted course. And, tbh, the type of thread you had in mind would have been better suited for /pony/ than /townhall/, which is de facto
a board on which to "debate and argue".
The very nature of the support needed here would make it impossible to put on pony without it turning political, and though this board can be for politics and debate, that is not it's main nor only function. Besides this, though, anyone posting in a thread should respect the ops wishes as best they can.
It's very clear to me that has not happened here, and I'm not even sure if an attempt was made.
Like I said, I am speaking from anger now.
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>>5527>The very nature of the support needed here would make it impossible to put on pony without it turning political,
If you expected it to turn to political debate on /pony/, then how did you expect it not
to turn political debate on /townhall/, the one board with the greatest amount of political debate?
I didn't expect it not to turn political. What I expected was for people to keep the spirit of the thread in mind and try to have more patience with each other, and to show support and love
for people being affected by all of it, no matter who it was or what side they were on.
I feel like there were plenty of points where people could have looked at what was being posted and stepped back for a minute.
Edit:sorry, I know it's supposed to be an anonymous board
That's the only thing that bugs me.
I wouldn't have even been bothered by people argueing their points if the thread just gave even 50% of what I originally asked for.
Eh, I think I'd disagree. At least given how /townhall/ is explained in the sticky.>Welcome to /townhall/! This is an anonymous-only board for debates, dialectics, and discussions of a serious nature.
Support isn't really discussion, dialectic, or debate, after all.>>5529
The topic is unfortunately very divisive and emotionally charged, it seems.
Then im probably wrong for putting it on the wrong board, but with /pony/s history of political discussions getting out of hand, I really didn't want to do it there.
Maybe after i've calmed down a bit I will give it a try.
I still feel very upset, though, by the way this thread turned out. I feel as if it turned unnecessarily heated.
Im sorry, I'm still trying to rein in my emotions, but does it have to be a 200+ post thread?
I don't know. I'll think about putting the thread on pony, but I'm very hesitant.