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 No.4506

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Perhaps I am not using this site respectfully enough, as I am not really bringing up topics with probable ad hominem temptation.  So, I thought about it for awhile and I think I can turn up the heat, and be a good townhall poster.

Debate Question:  Prison rape -- hurtful stereotype about incarcerated communities, a problem to be fixed, or a healthy feature of criminal justice, especially for perpetrators of sexual or violent crimes?  Explain your answer as best you can without posting more than people will probably read.

 No.4507

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It happens to quite a lot of people I believe. I don't have the numbers but I'm sure quite a few inmates give or receive STD's due to this form of rape. Only thing I could think of would be to force them to take a drug that inhibits their libido or prevents them from having an erection. But such a thing would be costly and I'm sure several will dissent to help criminals out.

 No.4508

>>4507
Well, I am told that rape isn't really about sex but about power and domination, but I grant it might be frustrating for the dominant if their penis failed to engorge.  You seem to be thinking about preventing prison rape, so I take you see it as a problem to be fixed.

 No.4509

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>>4508
More for the prevention and spread of disease.

 No.4510

>>4509
OK.  If the rape can be made sanitary, you may see a role for it in justice.  But disease has no role.

 No.4511

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>>4510
I'm not advocating for rape, no. See it more as hitting two birds with one stone.

 No.4512

>>4511
I see.  I do think at some level it should be wrong to advocate or hope for rape, however I see people do it on social media in the case of a criminal, so perhaps it is for some a kind of justice.  Things that are normally wrong -- killing someone, say -- must be ok when it is done for justice.  So I think opinions will vary and not everyone will say the same thing.

 No.4513

>>4512
>Things that are normally wrong -- killing someone, say -- must be ok when it is done for justice.
I've never heard of a situation where rape is justified except contrived philosophical thought experiments.  Well, at least going by the common-law definition of "rape".  Some jurisdictions consider it 'rape' for an 18-year old to have sex with his 17-year-old girlfriend.

>>4512
> I do think at some level it should be wrong to advocate or hope for rape, however I see people do it on social media in the case of a criminal, so perhaps it is for some a kind of justice.
Lots of stupid people make stupid posts on InstaTwitFace.  Rape as punishment would be considered cruel and unusual under the Bill of Rights.

 No.4516

>>4506
> a healthy feature of criminal justice

Absolutely not.

If rape is a "just" punishment for anything it would be rape itself (ostensibly). But prison rape is hardly something that happens only to rapists in prison.

Is rape a just punishment for dealing marijuana? Merely possessing it? What about theft? Burglary? fraud?

A rapists in prison wouldn't care what the victim is actually guilty of.

 No.4517

>>4512
>I see.  I do think at some level it should be wrong to advocate or hope for rape, however I see people do it on social media in the case of a criminal, so perhaps it is for some a kind of justice.

Perhaps those are just an expression of a sentiment rather than advocacy?

 No.4533

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>>4513
>stupid people
Good, good.  Now if someone takes that position you will not be able to call them stupid with any gravity because they will not be identifiable.  Excellent.

>cruel and unusual
I've often kinda wondered:  Does that allow punishments that are cruel or unusual, that is, can punishment be cruel and usual, or kind and unusual, as long as it's not both cruel and unusual at once?

>>4516
OK, so the problem is targeting the right people for the rape.

>>4517
The effect is normalizing something which seems to be a kind of advocacy.  I guess maybe you're thinking it's something done impulsively that given more time a person would think better of.  Maybe.

 No.4535

while from a functionalist viewpoint, there is some avoidance attributes to prison rape, it is still a horrible act that should not be condoned at all.

and given that systems that adress the health and community within the prison systems, as well as give them education and paths to maintained health after being released do wonders on reducing reintroduction into prison, those should be the avenues explored, as well as probably reduce the amount of prison rape there

 No.4540

>>4533
>Now if someone takes that position ...
Of course calling someone stupid to his face is rarely effective.  I'm just saying you shouldn't put much faith on what you read in social media.

>>4533
>Does that allow punishments that are cruel or unusual, that is, can punishment be cruel and usual, or kind and unusual, as long as it's not both cruel and unusual at once?
Yes.

 No.4544

>>4535
>horrible act that should not be condoned at all
OK, rape is not justice.

>reducing reintroduction into prison
In some cases, that's probably a goal of the justice system.

>>4540
>punishment be cruel and usual >yes

So if prison rape is usual enough, even if we consider it cruel, it's not forbidden by the bill of rights.  Just as chain gangs or long-term solitary confinement might be cruel -- although it probably depends on who you ask -- but it's usual, so no worries.  The 8th amendment prevents deviations from the accepted standard of justice in individual cases, I guess, and as the discussion is about justice in general, this amendment won't be relevant.  OK.

 No.4552

>>4544
>So if prison rape is usual enough,
It must be usual as officially inflicted punishment .

 No.4556

>>4552
Well, if agents of enforcement put people in a situation where they are aware it is fairly likely, the state becomes responsible.  True, I think it might be denied that it's an official punishment.  This is a difficult place when it comes to respect, both official positions and actual conditions must be respected.  But if it were brought up, we can say the 8th amendment would shoot down rape as a proper enforcement.  OK.

 No.4583

Prison rape isn't real.
People in prison get bored, but not that bored.

 No.4603

>>4583
I began this discussion knowing very little, figuring that would be the best way to propose something controversial.  I suppose I could actually so some minor research.

This is a very quick Googling, not a critical look, mind, but I see.  I will defer to more rigors searches if someone take the time.

"11.2% of all students experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation" - https://www.rainn.org/statistics/campus-sexual-violence

"In 2011–12, an estimated 4.0% of state and federal prison inmates and 3.2% of jail inmates reported experiencing one or more incidents of sexual victimization by another inmate or facility staff in the past 12 months or since admission to the facility, if less than 12 months." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

It's not quite accurate since it's not considering that one person can be assaulted more than once, but if you figure most students are in college for 4 years and divide 11.2 by 4, you get close to the expected rate for prison.  Which may suggest that there's nothing special about prison, rape simply occurs as a function of grouping humans together.

 No.4610

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>>4583
Seem pretty sure of yourself.

 No.4613

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The entire purpose of the incarceration system should be on rehabilitation, and failing that, a permanent, humane and secure containment of individuals deemed beyond possibility of rehabilitation away from the rest of civilized society.

So I think it's not that unreasonable to say it's something that shouldn't happen in the first place.

Also noted that it doesn't happen that commonly in all incarceration systems over the world, just some are much more pronounced in regards to this issue than others.

 No.4614

>>4613
Deterrence should also a major purpose of the criminal justice system.  The amount of corporate malfeasance and political corruption is nothing compared to what would exist without any threat of punishment.

 No.4618

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>>4614
Are you suggesting that unauthorized prison rape conducted by prison inmates, who have absolutely zero legal/moral authority vested in them to carry out any punishment to begin with, is a desirable method of deterrence for criminal behavior?

Would you consider an official administration of sexual assault on incarcerated persons to be a reasonable and desirable method of punishment for their crimes a la lex talionis?

Deterrence is secondary at best in terms of what a prison system is supposed to do IMO. Incarceration's main purpose is to take away the inmate's freedom and exclude them from the rest of society, not 'punishment'. Deterrence is usually carried out by the police and the judicial system, in that they find criminals responsible and charge them for their crimes should any criminal behavior be observed.

 No.4619

>>4618
>Are you suggesting that unauthorized prison rape conducted by prison inmates ... is a desirable method of deterrence for criminal behavior?
No.  Deprivation of freedom is sufficient deterrence.  Prisoners should have their other basic human rights protected.

>>4618
>Would you consider an official administration of sexual assault on incarcerated persons to be a reasonable and desirable method of punishment for their crimes a la lex talionis?
No.  Deterrence need not be severely cruel to be effective.

>>4618
>Deterrence is usually carried out by the police and the judicial system, in that they find criminals responsible and charge them for their crimes should any criminal behavior be observed.
What good is finding out who is responsible and charging them if they don't receive adequate punishment?  Unless the state is able to find and fix would-be criminals before they commit crimes, isn't punishment necessary to deterrence?

 No.4620

>>4619
Man that deterrence has worked so well over the years it's a surprise there's any crime at all. Unless this deterrence of yours isn't really working. Then it's a pretty moot point.

 No.4621

>>4620
It's certainly not perfect.  But it does work to some degree.  I know that from personal experience.

 No.4625

>>4506
Very much something that needs to be addressed, for many reasons.

1) It's a public health risk, as STDs could spread.

2) Unless we want to legislate rape as a punishment to crime, and distribute it in a calculated and controlled manner, then i don't think it makes sense to do it in a deregulated manner.

3) The prison system is currently broken. We incarcerate at an absurd rate, way too long, and for shit that shouldn't get you into prison in the first place. We're even moving towards institutionalized slavery, as for-profit prisons become more and more popular, and shift the incentives that prisons operate under.

4) Prisons are suppose to reform. People do not become stable, productive members of society by being raped full of STDs.

So yea, unless we want to punish an unpaid parking ticket with getting raped and infected with STDs for 10 years, fucking a person up for life, which i personally don't think we should, then we should enforce the law even to those in prison.

 No.4628

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>>4613
>The entire purpose of the incarceration system should be on rehabilitation, and failing that, a permanent, humane and secure containment of individuals deemed beyond possibility of rehabilitation away from the rest of civilized society.
I think that's one of the more...progressive...ways of looking at criminal justice.  Of course, I don't want my assessing of some systems as more progressive than others to mean that I don't understand that all systems are justice for humans, whether they focus on rehabilitation or retribution...politics or are simply random.

>>4625
That's a strong position.  THB while I expected some to believe in 'an eye for an eye,' I thought the idea of state-involved rape would have seen more strong rejection, at least if we are given the hypothetical power to choose.

 No.4630

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>>4628
The truth of incarceration is that people want to see someone punished for things they have chosen to refrain from.  A reward for suffering the rules is to fingerpoint and judge those who didnt suffer the rules.

I dont think thats acknowledged in general.

You'd think more people would have a problem with state-involved rape if you dont consider the above perspective.

 No.4636

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>>4630
Hmm...OK.  Akin to wishing the jobless to suffer for not having to put up with a boss ordering you around for 8 hours in a day, angry customers, or whatever negatives the job entails.  I suppose you're saying to some an increased probability of rape is a fair cost for what is gained in shirking the rules.  Perhaps as a component.  I think in most cases rape is pretty serious -- about as serious as it gets.  I guess it depends on how much a person feels they are suffering for law and order.

 No.4638

>>4636
> is a fair cost

By no means do i provide ANY sort of qualitative opinion.  I merely provide the perspective that i have observed many use when viewing such matters.

My personal opinion is that using such perspective to ignore the suffering of others with callous disregard is tantamount to conspiracy to commit those sufferings, but thats immaterial to any point i am making here.

 No.4710

>>4636
I don't think most people think about it that way. Though i also think that if everyone had the choice to be employed or unemployed, with both having equal pay, then everyone would choose unemployment, society would grind to a halt, and we'd all starve. Someone not being able to find a job isn't the same to me as someone who is perfectly capable of contributing to society choosing not to work and living off welfare. I don't think anyone owes someone like that anything, including the government owing them funding to survive.

That being said, i don't think we should actively incarcerate these people, which is what ends up happening. Police should no harass the homeless, and we should have more robust systems to guide people who are homeless or jobless into employment. Right now, there's a cliff which, if you fall down, you'll have a very tough time climbing back out of.

 No.4711

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>>4636
> I suppose you're saying to some an increased probability of rape is a fair cost

I'd go further and say that people are quick to ignore any amount of suffering if they can compartmentalize it with a dehumanizing label:  freeloader, criminal, jew, whatever.

Yet still consiser themselves compassionate etc.  Its more a rule for our species than an exception, too.

 No.4774

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>>4711
>dehumanizing
I see authoritarian enforcement as fulfilling a human need for justice, and to be honorable it must meet the needs of all involved.  I don't think I understand dehumanizing in the context of justice.


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