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 No.4038[Last 50 Posts]

File: 1573418512579.jpg (287.01 KB, 880x660, 4:3, unusual-hybrid-animals-31.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>pic not related, I just needed something

Inspired by the Gender Roles thread:

So at my current state in perspective, as a straight cis person, I do not personally want to date a trans person because I feel like it would be living a bit of a lie and stringing them along because I have an ultimate goal in mind of having a family, and I am rather straight.

However, I don't want to be completely close-minded and would like some input as to your thoughts on this, especially if you are trans yourself, and if you think ultimately this would be a cruel thing to do to someone?

 No.4040

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>>4038
>because I have an ultimate goal in mind of having a family
Yeah, if you're looking for somebody to procreate with, that would definitely be a valid reason to decline to date a transgender person.

 No.4042

>>4040
What if you're not, but you would still prefer not to date a transgender person?

 No.4045

File: 1573429723002.jpg (93.81 KB, 500x701, 500:701, 1489454529251.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4042
If you're not sexually attracted to transgender people, then of course that's also a valid reason to not date them.

 No.4046

>>4045
I would think so, but I've been told by trans people that the fact that they are trans doesn't and shouldn't matter, and that they don't have to disclose that fact to romantic partners.

 No.4047

>>4038
So i am a cis bi person who leans a lot more hetero than homo, for context.

I don't think there's anything wrong with dating in the short-term, as long as you're honest about your intentions upfront. I think the experience and perspective gained from the relationship can help both partners grow and learn and get experience, even if they both know it's not going to last. I think functional relationships can look like a lot of things, and that overall, society boxes people into what a "good" relationship is. A good, functional relationship can look like a lot of things, and it's very much not a one-size-fits-all scenario, so it's not going to look the same for everyone.

If you find the time early on to just have that discussion with your partner/potential partner,  be open and honest about your own intentions and needs, and be receptive to theirs, you'll be able to tell if it's something the two (or more, no judgement) of you can make work or not.

>>4046

I think that's crap myself. Genital configuration is going to be a pretty big deal for most people, and besides, communication is key in a relationship, so starting off withholding that pretty important information is an awful way to kick things off. Vaginal intercourse is still considered the default form of sex, so if you find yourself taking that first step into having a sexual relationship with someone and find the same pairs of genitals, well, now you've got to assess what exactly is happening instead, and this is in the heat of the moment when you're caught off guard, and likely feel you've had your trust broken. That's a bad situation.

It ultimately doesn't matter what people think should or should not matter about what you're attracted to. That's your business, and nobody has any right to try and dictate what you should or should not like except you.

 No.4048

>>4038
>as a straight cis person, I do not personally want to date a trans person
This seems similar to a conversation I've had with someone who will not date fat women.  You can't force someone to date or have sex with people without their consent, so I think about any preference (that still involves consent of both parties) is OK.  Even to reject people based on race would be OK in dating; it is generally acceptable to reject based on gender.

I think a person has to be careful of generalizing, to say instead straight cis people wouldn't want to date trans people as a rule.  But your personal preference and goals may be whatever.

 No.4049

Well, setting trans aside, if you started dating a non-trans woman and some time in found that she was infertile for whatever reason, what would you do then? There are other ways to have a family - surrogacy and adoptions - as well. It's probably optimal to have a baby with your spouse, but the thing is it is hard to find someone you are really compatible with. So, I would advise you to not make it a deal breaker, but still put some weight on it if you really prefer kids who are genetically related to both you and your partner. If you find someone who is perfect for you in every other way, I don't think you should exclude them just because starting a family would be a little more difficult than normal.

It may also be a matter of choice. Are you a stud who is going to have a lot of choice? I think in that case, it's perfectly fine to look for the best partner for you needs. Otherwise, you might just play it by ear and see how you feel about her and whether you think you can do better for yourself.

>>4042
You either like them and their body or not. Nobody else can tell you what is a valid reason for choosing a partner. I think there is a difference between being open minded, and trying to overwrite/invalidate your preference for the sake of open mindedness. For instance, there could be a straight male who doesn't really care what genitals their female partner has, so long as they are otherwise very feminine. That's someone who could be open minded and go into that relationship. Then another straight male might have considered to themselves whether they could have sex with someone with the same genitals, and said no. That is also open minded, because they put deliberate thought into the question and weighed their desires against it.

So, I wouldn't call you closed minded if you said absolutely no to transwomen. I would only call you closed minded if you didn't really think about it, weigh it honestly against your desires, and come to a conclusion true to yourself.

 No.4050

>>4049
Well, obviously OP would screen out infertile cis women given that follows from the goal of producing children, and dating would involve some kind of check.  That is a good point, though, I didn't think about that.

 No.4051

>>4047
>>4049
Well I agree, but it seems the trans community likes to push the idea that you never have to disclose that you are trans to anyone you don't want to.

 No.4052

File: 1573443502765.jpg (379.18 KB, 1200x1080, 10:9, 1456670771105.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4051
>Well I agree, but it seems the trans community likes to push the idea that you never have to disclose that you are trans to anyone you don't want to.
Pretty sure that doesn't apply to someone with whom you are going to have sex.  In fact, it's pretty much physically impossible to have sex with somebody without revealing that you're transgender.  Even genital surgery isn't good enough to conceal it.

And I'd go further and say that it should be revealed verbally *before* the clothing comes off.

 No.4053

>>4052
Ok, but then at what point should it be revealed? There does not seem to be a consensus there. Should it only be revealed just before sex?

 No.4054

>>4053
I don't know about consensus, but for me, once things get touchy feely, like before kissing, or mutual groping, that would be a good point to take a pause and let them know.

 No.4055

>>4054
So you would be OK with dating someone in a clearly romantic context and not telling them until things got physical? I feel like it should be disclosed earlier than even that.  

 No.4056

>>4055
I do to, not only for the person they are telling, but also for the trans person. I personally think they should know whether or not this person they are dating is willing to be with them for who they are, or at the very least, willing to come to accept them.

If someone couldn't come to accept me for something about myself that I really couldn't change, I wouldn't want to be with that person in a romantic way.

 No.4057

>>4055
>>4056

Fair point. I was thinking like, mixer/bar/party context, but certainly if the relationship is moving in a romantic direction, i think it should be disclosed.

 No.4072

If you're after a family then trans people aren't really valid choices for you.  Not much to be done about that.

 No.4073

File: 1573671638718.png (57.06 KB, 200x200, 1:1, 14.png) ImgOps Google

I feel this is a line that the more vocal minority of the trans community doesn't get.

That you can't force someone to date you if they're not into you. I personally am not into most transwomen, they're not my type. There are always exceptions, but I would not actively date one, the same way I wouldn't date a dudebro.

I think if you're not an asshole about it, and not an asshole to trans people, you're fine. Besides, people have preferences!

The vocal minority likes to shout "You're transphobic if you wouldn't date meeeeee" but then doesn't understand you can't fore someone to date you. So long as you're not a dick, I don't think it's considered close-minded.

Now, I'm not going to go on the "well you can adopt/have a surrogate/etc" track, because that's something you'd have to think over. If you're not attracted to transwomen, you're not attracted to them, same way I would guess there's cis women you're not attracted to.

In short, from this transman, I think you're fine so long as you're clear and upfront with your intentions, even to yourself.

 No.4074

This thread fills me with suspicion...

 No.4075

>>4074
Suspicion of what?

 No.4076

>>4073
Thank you for that. I think that's kind of what I was looking for but didn't really know how to word it.

 No.4077

>>4075

There are some blatant bad faith mischaracterization of transgender people in this thread.

I'm not sure it should be treated with the benefit of the doubt that it's in good faith.

 No.4078

File: 1573684405894.png (125.06 KB, 400x400, 1:1, mtr_1567133369572.png) ImgOps Google

>>4077
What makes you think that it is in bad faith?  If you disagree with what someone said on this board, it is usually best just to argue against their claim, rather that making insinuations about them having bad intentions.  Even if you're right about their intentions, there is little upside to making such accusations, and if you're wrong, there is big downside.

 No.4079

File: 1573687065731.png (55.96 KB, 200x200, 1:1, 17.png) ImgOps Google

>>4076
No problem, man!

The dating world is hard to sort out even at the best of times, but I find that figuring out what you want for yourself, and being honest with you and people you're interested in, is the best course of action.

 No.4080

>>4078

Mostly cause I am familiar with this mischaracterization. I.e
that transgender people encourage other transgender people to lie to friends and family about being trans.

And no one in this thread calling that out? Just because it's passed off as a fact without any context about it?  

I mean, the reality is that trans people will encourage others to not be out if they have reason to fear for their safety if it's known that they are trans

It's literally a matter of survival for some.

 No.4082

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>>4080
>Mostly cause I am familiar with this mischaracterization. I.e
>that transgender people encourage other transgender people to lie to friends and family about being trans.
I don't think there has been any discussion in this thread about lying about transgender status.  The issue seems to be whether to proactively reveal this information (and if so, when).  

And if a mischaracterization is common enough for you to be familiar with it, don't you think that there is also a reasonably high chance that other people heard it elsewhere and honestly believe it?

 No.4083

>>4082
>whether to proactively reveal this information
Don't know if it helps, but just like you can't force someone to date someone, you also can't force someone to send out medical fertility data.  It all happens with a gradual build up of trust between folks.  (At least, I think most would agree with that...)

 No.4084

>>4083
I think that's fine, if it's a casual acquaintanceship. But when it becomes romantic or sexual in nature, there's a duty to reveal that one is trans. And if the trans community claims there is not, then that's an issue.

 No.4085

File: 1573698352469.png (244.21 KB, 1900x1300, 19:13, dead doodle.png) ImgOps Google

>>4080
I ignored it because it wasn't relevant to the OP and wasn't going to derail.

 No.4086

>>4084
Hmm...OK.  So, people engage in romance with the assumption that the person is not transgender.  It falls outside the model, I guess.  So it is necessary to ensure the partner consents to a non-standard romance or sexual encounter.  OK.  Well, I hope those transgenders [who see it otherwise] change their ways.

 No.4087

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>>4084
>But when it becomes romantic or sexual in nature, there's a duty to reveal that one is trans.
When it becomes sexual, I'd say it's less of a duty to reveal and more of a physical impossibility of concealing that one is transgender.  And I'll repeat what I said earlier: One should probably reveal it at some point before sexual activity is about to happen.  

 No.4088

>>4087
What about sexually explicit conversation as part of the courtship ritual? Otherwise known as "flirting". What is your position on when it should be revealed in that regard?

 No.4089

>>4088
Modern courtship rituals also sometimes include the exchanging of explicit or suggestive photographs, which would make it possible to hide one's transgender status depending on the type of photograph taken. How does this fall under your statute here?

 No.4090

>>4082

I have reason to suspect who OP is from this.

>>4084

>And if the trans community claims there is not, then that's an issue.

It's a generalization that probably shouldn't be treated as if there is any merit to it.

Transgender people are not a monolith in regards to this, and of course, the context matters.

 No.4091

File: 1573704721343.jpg (671.5 KB, 1214x933, 1214:933, jokernobatman_20191011_sit….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4088
>>4089
Hmm, I think I'll stick to my original stance: No need to disclose until sexual contact is expected to be occurring soon.  Like, if you meet for a third date and invite over to house and expect that sex might be occurring, probably try to mention transgender status sometime during the date.

 No.4093

>>4091
So you think it's acceptable to send someone an explicit picture if they are trans, so long as genitals are not exposed?

It's possible to take a picture of one's buttocks and chest and not necessarily reveal that one is trans. I feel like sending someone a picture like this in a sexual context while not revealing their status as trans is deceptive. Especially if it's done under the pretense that it could become physical/romantic. I don't see how this isn't anything but being intentionally deceptive.

 No.4094

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>>4090
>I have reason to suspect who OP is from this.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I don't care all that much about anonymity on this subject, so I'll just go ahead and say it's me, Ella.

I made the thread because I honestly wanted opinions and too gauge my own thoughts and feelings against others, to see if I may have been thinking about things incorrectly, or could think of things differrently.

 No.4095

>>4094
I've also only posted in here like four or five times. I've mostly been just reading and taking in the different opinions.

 No.4096

I personally wouldn't want to date anyone who would hide something like that from me. It seems like a dumb thing to hide from someone you're romantically interested in, and really, how can you? Either you don't care about their feelings and it's not really romance, or you do care and you would want them to fully accept you. I can understand not saying something at first for fear they won't like you but at some point the guilt alone will become visible. It's just not possible to hide you being trans from someone you genuinely love.

 No.4097

>>4094
>>4095

The fact that no one in this thread seemed to stop and simply ask "wait is that true?" when someone made a reference to the idea that trans people encourage each other to deceive others by being unforthcoming about being trans without any context has been particularly discouraging and made the OP seem like it was leading.  

 No.4099

>>4097
Oh...shit, I see what you mean. I hadn't thought many people do that, but yea that is something worth discussing.

 No.4100

>>4097
>>4099


That definitely wasn't my intention with the thread either, but I'm glad you pointed this out.

 No.4101

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>>4093
>So you think it's acceptable to send someone an explicit picture if they are trans, so long as genitals are not exposed?
Probably one should ask first.  Some people don't like getting unsolicited explicit pictures.

>I feel like sending someone a picture like this in a sexual context while not revealing their status as trans is deceptive
Lots of people try to accentuate parts of their body that they like and conceal parts of their body that they don't like.  Is wearing makeup deceptive?  Is wearing a pushup bra deceptive?  

Also, some people find it awkward to reveal their transgender status.  If they want to wait and see if the potential relationship fails for some other reason first, I think it's not entirely unreasonable to wait a bit before revealing it until they're more comfortable with the other person.  If you have any physical, mental, or inheritable genetic conditions that might be of concern to a potential partner, when would you reveal them?

 No.4102

>>4101
I fundamentally disagree with you on m
most of this.

>Probably one should ask first.  Some people don't like getting unsolicited explicit pictures.

One might be OK with receiving those type pictures fron a cis person and not from a trans person. Asking for permission to send the pictures isn't the issue here. The issue is the recipient's lack of knowledge of the sender's status as trans.

>Is wearing makeup deceptive?  Is wearing a pushup bra deceptive?  

Those are not comparable situations. Make up does not hide one's lack of a face, and a push-up bra makes a woman's breasts appear larger, but she still has breasts underneath.

>some people find it awkward to reveal their transgender status.

And? It's still something that should be disclosed to a romantic partner before anything sexual like exchanging explicit pictures takes place.

>If they want to wait and see if the potential relationship fails

Knowledge of their status as trans is necessary to determine whether a relationship is viable. Keeping it secret to find out if it is viable otherwise is withholding vital information needed to determine if the relationship is worth pursuing in the first place.

 No.4106

>>4101
>>4101
>If you have any physical, mental, or inheritable genetic conditions that might be of concern to a potential partner, when would you reveal them?

I would personally want that stuff revealed to me at the point of the relationship becoming official, or certainly in the sooner stages if it's heading in that direction. I knkw dating can be messy, you don't always get an official "we are dating/are we dating now?"; so just at the point it moves past just fooling around is when I would want to know.

 No.4107

File: 1573832742729.jpeg (118.95 KB, 1024x663, 1024:663, EB148521-46AE-4CF9-AA92-8….jpeg) ImgOps Google

I think everyone is thinking about this a bit too hard. The answer is really simple.

For example I’m a cis gay guy who dates a transwomen. I’d still consider myself gay despite the fact that I date a woman because she has a biologically male body. Her sex is male, and I am a attracted to people who have a male sex because I am a cis gay male, but considering that her gender is female I suppose you could call me bi-romantic.

Not only don’t I think it’s unreasonable to think that straight men should be attracted to pre-op transwomen, I personally wouldn’t consider you straight if you were. You could be hetero-romantic, but if you’re sexually attracted to someone with a male body then you’re at least bicurious.

 No.4109

>>4107
You specify "pre-op". Do you think this changed after sex reassignment surgery?

 No.4116

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>>4109
I don’t see why a straight guy wouldn’t be attracted to a post-op transwomen for the same reasons that I wouldn’t be attracted to her. If you want to have kids then that’s another thing altogether, but a post-op transwomen (that passes) meets all the criteria of what a straight guy would be into.

 No.4117

>>4116
I really don't think it's a matter of "passing" or not. I still think there are things about a trans woman, even post-op, that a straight person might not be comfrotable with. As such, they should have a right to know their partner is trans. We still consider a person "trans" when they are post-op for a reason.

 No.4118

>>4116
Would you date a black person if they could convincingly appear white after surgery?

 No.4121

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>>4118
If a "black" person appears white, then is he/she really black?

 No.4122

>>4121
Skin color shouldn't matter though? Like they're still the same person.

Huh...I think I just answered my own op question. I guess I would be willing to date a trans person if I could be attracted to them enough, because as it's come up in here, there is always adoption as an option.

 No.4124

>>4121
Depends on how you mean.

>>4122
I would not be willing to date a trans person, and I think for that reason it should be brought to ones attention that someone is trans. But lots of people in this thread have said that it is OK to keep ones status as trans secret well past the point that I would consider acceptable.

 No.4127

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>>4124
>I would not be willing to date a trans person, and I think for that reason it should be brought to ones attention that someone is trans.
Why shouldn't the burden be on you to ask?  If I'm unwilling to date people who don't respect the Second Amendment, would that justify me thinking that everyone I want to date should proactively identify whether or not they respect the Second Amendment?

 No.4128

>>4127
Well I have asked, and I've been actively lied to.

But even if you don't ask, a lie of omission is still a lie. Why is it on someone to ask every single person they date if they are trans instead of the trans person just being honest and knowing the other person is OK with it? Isnt that better than dropping that bombshell on them later and finding out they aren't?

 No.4129

>>4127
>>4128
Maybe it needs to be a mix of both.

I'm not in the dating scene anymore, but if I were, these are things that I would personally bring up on a first date. List things that I am not ok with and ask the other person if they have any things they are not ok with.

 No.4130

>>4127
>Why shouldn't the burden be on you to ask?

Okay, I get where you're coming from, but also can you imagine how it would feel if someone asked if you were trans?  Just like, right at the beginning of your first date?

 No.4132

>>4130
It creates an environment of distrust that isn't a healthy place for relationships to grow.

 No.4133

>>4132

Well that's why trans people should more openly relay that information, because asking if people are trans is very rude.

 No.4134

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>>4117
To be fair I wouldn’t be attracted to a transman even if he passed 100% and was post-op, so I can hardly judge in that respect.

>>4118
No, because they’d still be Black mentally and they’d also have a Black heritage, plus I there’s just something I find inherently unattractive about the idea. I’d potentially be willing to date a Easy Asian guy, but I have no interest in Blacks, bleached skin or not.

>>4121
If I got surgery to look like a woman I’d still be a man, because I’d have a mans brain. Even more so for race because we’re not only talking about the brain but heritage.

>>4124
You can’t just assume someone’s trans status like that, it’s extremely rude. To be honest my first assumption when I hear that someone’s a woman online is to assume that they’re trans, but I don’t ask, because it’s not relevant. As far as I’m concerned they could be trans or cis, I’m going to view and treat them exactly the same way so it doesn’t matter.

Dating is a bit different, and I do think that a trans person should tell you that they’re trans if you’re going to date them, although I don’t think you have much right to ask, but on the other hand I think they’d also be a bit dishonest for not telling you, especially it they know you’re straight. It’s a tricky subject, and I don’t think there really is any proper way of going about, you just have to hope that you’re partner is honest with you.

 No.4135

>>4133
That is my stance, yes. It's rude and distrusting to ask that of someone. Someone should be able to trust that a potential romantic partner is going to be honest with them.

>>4134
>No, because they’d still be Black mentally and they’d also have a Black heritage

That's a pretty racist, but it applies to this situation as well.
> plus I there’s just something I find inherently unattractive about the idea.

Then you should understand that straight people would also feel that way about Trans people, now matter how much they "pass".

> think they’d also be a bit dishonest for not telling you, especially it they know you’re straight.

I agree. There seems to be a divide on this, though.

 No.4137

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>>4133
I feel this, but should add a "trans people should say they're trans when they are ready"

Because let's face it, it's not super safe for us in the world right now. While I, personally, am very open about it, it's because I'm lucky enough to live in an area where it is pretty safe to be open.

It's unfortunately not the same for others.

So... yes it should be said before any intimacy, but not until someone is sure they are safe. Even then, unfortunately, we never know how anyone will respond.

There isn't a good way to go around it, unfortunately. Everyone is on different timetables.

Do I think they should actively lie about it? No. But not telling someone right away instantly is not as terrible as it's being made out to be.

 No.4139

I don't really think anyone owes you information about their physical body or genitalia, regardless of whether the relationship is becoming romantic or sexual. If they're openly lying, then yes, that's quite bad. But if they simply never answer, or omit the information? Then you're out of luck and you have a choice to make.

 No.4141

>>4137
>>4137
>Because let's face it, it's not super safe for us in the world right now. While I, personally, am very open about it, it's because I'm lucky enough to live in an area where it is pretty safe to be open.

This, and I wish far more people in this thread would consider that before passing judgment on transgender people's conundrum that this circumstance creates.

We exist in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I would be open about being trans ... but can I trust that I won't, in turn, end up on the list read out on Transgender Day of Remembrance?

Did anyone in this thread consider that?

And for godsakes, please don't take that personally, the reality of transphobia and the tendency for some people to consider us an appropriate outlet for all sorts of their own anxieties, so we kind of have to behave with a little paranoid caution with anyone we interact with.

 No.4142

>>4137
>>4141
I agree with you both. People still get beat up for being gay. People still get beat up for many things...

Even with less important things, it is not always safe to share right away.

 No.4143

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>>4139
> But if they simply never answer, or omit the information?

That's called rape by deception.

There are a few woefully misinformed trans activists who encourage this, unfortunately.

 No.4145

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>>4143
>That's called rape by deception.
Not in my jurisdiction (PA).  And I think such a "rape by deception" law is quite problematic (and likely to be held void for vagueness as applied in such a case) unless written very narrowly and clearly delineating what sorts of things need to be revealed.  If a woman fakes an orgasm to try to retain a sexual relationship with her boyfriend, should she be imprisoned for rape?  If a person says "I love you" to try to obtain sex, should a jury second-guess whether the speaker really meant it?  If someone worked as a prostitute in the past, should that needed to be revealed, upon pain of imprisonment, even if she subsequently got tested and is not carrying any STDs?  What about IV drug use?

 No.4146

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>>4145
Look, I'm not going to debate this, I'm just saying it can be considered such. This thread's off the rails enough already.

 No.4148

I don't think I want to say very much about this topic, just watching, but I don't want to be deceptive in general or lie by omission.  I have to think more about this perhaps, how to make everyone happy when talking online.  While I decline dates when finally asked, those who ask must begin to fancy me in their mind at some point, and I suppose people really desire the facts to be brought forth at or before that point, so while I might feel I'm over-identifying or attention-seeking, it probably isn't possible in this case.  So:

I am not human, which is this case means I don't know what the human gender authorities are (do humans even know?), so I don't claim to be any human gender defined by those authorities.  But I am a woman of my kind, that seems right.  If you need medical details to talk to me, don't talk to me, I guess.  I'm not lying by omission, I'm honestly omitting.  Also, I'm in a relationship (with myself) and don't want to date more people.

OK, now I think people can be happy.  :)

 No.4149

File: 1573960292629.jpg (19.32 KB, 289x296, 289:296, Awww Flutter.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4134
Several reports take issue with your idea of being "Black mentally," and after some internal discussion, the staff also feels that your post takes Rule 3 a bit too far, Minty.

We on the staff do not police thoughtcrimes; we do not punish racists, if they keep that to themselves

We understand that /townhall/ is made with the intention of allowing a place for politically incorrect opinions to be debated, provided they are made in good faith, and not in violation of other rules.

You can choose who you don't want to date. You can not like their heritage. But the concept of being "mentally black" is, as one users says, "pretty racist," and identifying that as something that is "inherently unattractive" pushes that boundary past civility

Please consider this a formal warning.

 No.4150

File: 1573961803032.jpg (111.06 KB, 549x666, 61:74, b31.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4149
>But the concept of being "mentally black" is, as one users says, "pretty racist," and identifying that as something that is "inherently unattractive"
Mint's post has a typo, but, at least as I parsed his post, he was not saying that being "mentally black" (whatever that might mean) is unattractive.  He was saying that having this sort of surgery was an unattractive.

 No.4151

>>4149
> we do not punish racists, if they keep that to themselves

"Racism is ok so long as you hide it"  doesn't seem like a good policy to have.

 No.4152

>>4137
And what if "when they are ready" is never. What if they feel (or are told) that they never have to tell anyone they are dating they are trans. That their feelings matter more than the other persons?

>>4141
Why does hiding it make more sense, though? Like, isn't it MORE dangerous to hide it from someone who isn't comfortable with it than to just tell them and let the relationship go on or end there?

>>4139
>Then you're out of luck and you have a choice to make.

What choice? You can't mean to choose if they want to date a trans person, because they don't know. Hiding the fact that they are trans removes that choice from the other person. Or are you suggesting they have a choice to remain celibate or to never trust anyone again? If someone is trans, then they should tell someone they are romantic with, and especially if it's sexual.

I'm wondering why >>4080 made a big deal about the "mischaracterization" that trans people are encouraged by the trans community to not divulge that they are trans to romantic partners when it is exactly what this post here is saying. How is that fair to a person who isn't comfortable with dating a trans person? It's an incredibly deceitful and terrible way of thinking. And it's not at all uncommon.

 No.4153

>>4152
You have the choice to trust them or not trust them. Your move. You're at fault for whatever comes from trusting someone that refuses to volunteer that information.

 No.4155

>>4153
How can you be at fault when they actively kept it from you and you had no way of knowing? The only way your statement is viable is if you choose to never trust anyone ever. Which is ridiculous.

 No.4156

>>4153
>>4155
I suppose if you ask the question, and they refuse to answer it, isn't that answer enough?

I don't know, this thread went in a direction I was not expecting but I don't want to delete it because I feel like these are opinions that people should be able to discuss, now that they are here.

 No.4157

File: 1573973978434.jpg (19.32 KB, 289x296, 289:296, Awww Flutter.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4151
it's more, "your beliefs aren't my business, unless you make it my business." if we start policing people's ideologies, then i'd say, it is a very sorry state of affairs.

>>4150
i can see that too, and that's fair. even outside that interpretation though, the idea that someone can be "mentally black" is unequivocally racist, in a way that is rule-violating.

 No.4158

>>4156
But asking someone if they are trans with no provocation for doing so is 1) Pretty rude and 2) sets a standard of mistrust that is not good for a potential relationship.

I'm sorry this isn't the topic you intended. But it seems people are pretty divided on this topic, especially those with skin in the game when it comes to transgender issues. I just don't think it's right that the trans community promotes this idea that it's somehow OK or justified to lie or to keep it secret from someone you have a romantic and/or sexual relationship with, or wish to pursue either or both of those things with.

>>4157
But they kind of ARE our business if the person's beliefs serve to dehumanize and subjugate our family and friends, is it not?

 No.4159

>>4158
I feel like asking the question if you want to pursue a relationship with them isn't rude, because it would be a valid question?

>sets a standard of mistrust

I mean, I wouldn't think so if you are not being a jerk about it. I feel like asking questions, in a calm and open manner, provides an opportunity for communication to happen.

 No.4160

>>4158
>>4159
And I don't think the whole trans community supports that anyway. Certainly no one I have met yet. I think this may just be a case of who is the loudest.

 No.4161

>>4159
Why does one have to ask at all? It's like having to ask "Hey, so I heard this thing called transsexual people exists, so I gotta ask you, do you got a dick?" is just such a weird burden to put on literally every single person in the world when trans people are such a small portion of the population. Why not just let people know?

It makes less sense to keep it a secret and then let someone who isn't ok with it find out on their own and feel lied to about it than to just let them know. If they aren't OK with it, then neither of you wasted your time or felt betrayed or lied to.

 No.4162

>>4161
I really don't know. I feel it would be just as easy to ask if you are not sure, especially over a space like a forum like this, as it would be for them to tell.

I feel like I have a better answer, but I'm very tired right now. All I can say for sure is that there's certain places and crowds that you don't want to just tell that info, right off the bat. Like 4chan for example. Everyone gets harrassed there for everything. If two people started flirting, and one was trans, the trans person might absolutely want to wait to mention it until they knew the person they were talking to is mentally stable and not biased. Maybe meet them in a public place a few times with some friends first, make sure they aren't the type that's just going to dox and send death threats.

It's not an easily answered question I don't think.

 No.4163

The fact is, whether you think it's right or wrong, no one owes you the answer. And at that point -just as with any other question left unanswered- you have a choice to make. You trust them or you don't. If that causes you personal agony in every other facet of your life, then surely it will here too.

 No.4166

>>4163
But doesn't that means its more important for trans people to be honest about this, so they don't gain a reputation as dishonest people who abuse your trust to spare their own feelings?

 No.4167

>>4166
I don't think so! It's the same with anyone willfully volunteering/not volunteering any information. They're not untrustworthy just 'cause they don't wanna tell you something deeply personal.

 No.4168

The implication of asking someone in the real world "are you transgender?" is that "you look like a non-passing trans person and therefore I have to ask."  If the answer is no, then you've just insulted their appearance in a way that is going to be nearly impossible to recover from.  If the answer is yes, then you've just shown that they aren't passing, and also insulted them.  The question is insulting any way you look at it, and so, anyone with half a brain with the smallest inclination to maybe possibly start a relationship with someone is simply not going to ask it.

Of course there are exceptions, like if you meet someone at a popular hangout for transgender people, a local example might be the "gay" bar, but in most any other circumstance, asking this question is just a bad idea.  At best, you might drop hints in conversation about your thoughts on these matters and look for a response, but even doing this risks making yourself look bad, which is not what you want to do when you're trying to impress someone and possibly start something.

Knowing that it's unreasonable for a person who isn't trans, to ask every person they might be romantically interested in, whether that person they're interested in is trans or not, it thus logically falls to the person who is trans to make that information available to those who would reasonably want to know.  Which means, that during or before that "long talk" phase of any budding relationship, this information needs to come forward.

 No.4169

>>4167
Having an STD is something "deeply personal". I don't think that's an excuse.

>>4168
This right here is what I meant when I said asking someone if they are trans is "rude". It's insulting no matter what the answer is.

 No.4172

>>4168
>>4169
>This right here is what I meant when I said asking someone if they are trans is "rude". It's insulting no matter what the answer is.

Ok I see that now. Suppose I was limiting myself too much to my own experience because I've never much been bothered by questions, and I've been asked before by strangers if I was a boy. Embarrassing, but it's never stuck with me.

However if you are trying to transition and have body disphoria, ok, I can see why a question like that would be much more hurtful.

 No.4173

>>4168
>you look like a non-passing trans person
I gather that is a bad thing to be in a dating context which is why implying such is insulting.  OK.

 No.4175

>>4168
what's the worst that could happen, though? you end up datin' someone with the wrong set of genitals? does that erase all romantic love from the situation and stuff?

 No.4176

>>4173
It's not just a bad thing in a dating context. Trans people want to be seen as and treated as whatever gender they choose to present as. So telling them they are failing at that is insulting. It's fine when it's not a romantic or sexual situation to not divulge that information. But when it becomes either of those things, then it needs to be brought up. Otherwise it's disregarding the other person's feelings and wishes for your own.

>>4175
Some people are not comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable with that. There's a reason we have a designation (pansexual) for people who ARE comfortable with it.

 No.4178

>>4176
OK.

>Otherwise it's disregarding the other person's feelings and wishes for your own.
Hmm...an authority exists somewhere to determine whose feelings are most worthy of regard, yes I think that's that way of it.  For awhile, trying to present as a trans gender might have been making people around feel uncomfortable, so it was a bad thing to do.  Now somehow it is the people uncomfortable with the transgender presentation whose feelings have less legitimacy, at least in many places.  Some authority determines whose feeling matter the most, I don't quite know how it works.  I accept what you say, I don't know of anything to counter it, it is therefore appropriate for a trans gender person to give rough information about their genitals (and genital history, if needed) at first date, failure means entering a date without proper consent, a kind of rape?  Maybe that's too strong, but like that.

 No.4179

>>4178
Authority can be separated from morality.

Sometimes it is more important to think in terms of morality, than in terms of authority.

 No.4180

>>4179
I wrote a longer response, then erased it, because I think it will start a tangent.  I'll say simply I watch people fight over moral issues, and look to some additional entity to tell me which of the fighting parties is more moral.  It's the best I've come up with so far.

 No.4181

>>4178
>>4180
I've seen you talking about "authority" like this in other threads, and I have to say it's rather strange. Most people don't base their feelings or morality on some kind of "authority". Why do you keep going on about this?

 No.4182

>>4180
>and look to some additional entity to tell me which of the fighting parties is more moral.


You may not always be able to look to some additional entity; you may have to make the choice yourself, of which is more moral, based on your own experience.

I also want to point out that I do not think fighting is happening in this thread. I think discussion is happening, and disagreements, which help to come to an agreement.

 No.4183

>>4152
>Why does hiding it make more sense, though? Like, isn't it MORE dangerous to hide it from someone who isn't comfortable with it than to just tell them and let the relationship go on or end there?

Because telepathy doesn't actually exist and no one can know for certain that someone would or would not be uncomfortable, much less if they would react with violence or some other form of abuse.

 No.4184

>>4181
>>4182
I don't think it's good to discuss here.  I go on about it because I think it, and as this thread is talking about honesty and not lying by omission, I must be as clear as possible.  I think it because I am a strange creature, but that's not a topic of this thread, so I don't know.  >>4182
> I do not think fighting is happening in this thread
I'm thinking more in general, not so much this thread.

 No.4185

>>4184
Ah ok

 No.4186

This is maybe a good thread for general topics about ethics.  If links work across threads, I don't know.
>>4007

 No.4187

>>4183
So it's better to just disregard all people's feelings to spare your own? I think it's better to just tell someone and if they aren't OK with it, then neither has wasted their time.

>>4184
Maybe you should make a thread about it. I was enjoying you science thread.

 No.4196

>>4187
>>4187

Manley, that is a *ridiculously* disengenuous strawman

 No.4198

>>4187
>So it's better to just disregard all people's feelings to spare your own?
You forgot this part:
>>4183
> no one can know for certain that someone would or would not ... react with violence
And see also >>4162
> make sure they aren't the type that's just going to dox and send death threats.

 No.4199

>>4196
Ok for starters, you shouldn't call other users out as being a specific person. This board is anonymous for a reason.

Second, I don't agree anything I've said is a "strawman". If you want to point at something in particular we are discussing and point out why it's inaccurate, then I'll engage you in that conversation.

>>4198
I don't see how any of that is relevant. There are people in this world who would kill me for being non-white. Yet, I don't hide that fact, nor would I if I could. Furthermore, I would not want to date someone who was not comfortable dating a non-white person, so why keep it from them?

 No.4200

>>4199

you don't see how a fear of death threats or physical violence in a society that's largely transphobic is relevant?

 No.4201

File: 1574141533249.png (412.88 KB, 900x760, 45:38, trans-plant.png) ImgOps Google

>>4199
> Furthermore, I would not want to date someone who was not comfortable dating a non-white person, so why keep it from them?
Online dating websites advise that the parties meet in public for their first date.  Do you understand the reasoning behind this advice?

 No.4202

>>4199
>>4199

>nor would I if I could.

Yeah this is getting ridiculously transphobic.

 No.4203

Thread is locked while we discuss a report that just came in.

 No.4224

While Proud Parrot and Fancy Dog disagree, and on a topic that Fancy Dog may hold very personally, we've decided that doesn't mean any rules were broken.  /townhall/ is a forum at least partially for discussing morality, which inevitably means that people with different ideas of right and wrong are going to show up and share their thoughts on the matter.

In this case, the discussion is about when to reveal yourself as trans to a potential romantic partner, and no answer you could give to that question is without pros and cons.  The discussion seems very legitimate.


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