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 No.4038[View All]

File: 1573418512579.jpg (287.01 KB, 880x660, 4:3, unusual-hybrid-animals-31.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>pic not related, I just needed something

Inspired by the Gender Roles thread:

So at my current state in perspective, as a straight cis person, I do not personally want to date a trans person because I feel like it would be living a bit of a lie and stringing them along because I have an ultimate goal in mind of having a family, and I am rather straight.

However, I don't want to be completely close-minded and would like some input as to your thoughts on this, especially if you are trans yourself, and if you think ultimately this would be a cruel thing to do to someone?
58 posts and 16 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.4134

File: 1573903697665.png (81.97 KB, 410x410, 1:1, 166E1731-5B75-4B71-890D-8F….png) ImgOps Google

>>4117
To be fair I wouldn’t be attracted to a transman even if he passed 100% and was post-op, so I can hardly judge in that respect.

>>4118
No, because they’d still be Black mentally and they’d also have a Black heritage, plus I there’s just something I find inherently unattractive about the idea. I’d potentially be willing to date a Easy Asian guy, but I have no interest in Blacks, bleached skin or not.

>>4121
If I got surgery to look like a woman I’d still be a man, because I’d have a mans brain. Even more so for race because we’re not only talking about the brain but heritage.

>>4124
You can’t just assume someone’s trans status like that, it’s extremely rude. To be honest my first assumption when I hear that someone’s a woman online is to assume that they’re trans, but I don’t ask, because it’s not relevant. As far as I’m concerned they could be trans or cis, I’m going to view and treat them exactly the same way so it doesn’t matter.

Dating is a bit different, and I do think that a trans person should tell you that they’re trans if you’re going to date them, although I don’t think you have much right to ask, but on the other hand I think they’d also be a bit dishonest for not telling you, especially it they know you’re straight. It’s a tricky subject, and I don’t think there really is any proper way of going about, you just have to hope that you’re partner is honest with you.

 No.4135

>>4133
That is my stance, yes. It's rude and distrusting to ask that of someone. Someone should be able to trust that a potential romantic partner is going to be honest with them.

>>4134
>No, because they’d still be Black mentally and they’d also have a Black heritage

That's a pretty racist, but it applies to this situation as well.
> plus I there’s just something I find inherently unattractive about the idea.

Then you should understand that straight people would also feel that way about Trans people, now matter how much they "pass".

> think they’d also be a bit dishonest for not telling you, especially it they know you’re straight.

I agree. There seems to be a divide on this, though.

 No.4137

File: 1573931530848.png (26.52 KB, 200x201, 200:201, banner.png) ImgOps Google

>>4133
I feel this, but should add a "trans people should say they're trans when they are ready"

Because let's face it, it's not super safe for us in the world right now. While I, personally, am very open about it, it's because I'm lucky enough to live in an area where it is pretty safe to be open.

It's unfortunately not the same for others.

So... yes it should be said before any intimacy, but not until someone is sure they are safe. Even then, unfortunately, we never know how anyone will respond.

There isn't a good way to go around it, unfortunately. Everyone is on different timetables.

Do I think they should actively lie about it? No. But not telling someone right away instantly is not as terrible as it's being made out to be.

 No.4139

I don't really think anyone owes you information about their physical body or genitalia, regardless of whether the relationship is becoming romantic or sexual. If they're openly lying, then yes, that's quite bad. But if they simply never answer, or omit the information? Then you're out of luck and you have a choice to make.

 No.4141

>>4137
>>4137
>Because let's face it, it's not super safe for us in the world right now. While I, personally, am very open about it, it's because I'm lucky enough to live in an area where it is pretty safe to be open.

This, and I wish far more people in this thread would consider that before passing judgment on transgender people's conundrum that this circumstance creates.

We exist in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I would be open about being trans ... but can I trust that I won't, in turn, end up on the list read out on Transgender Day of Remembrance?

Did anyone in this thread consider that?

And for godsakes, please don't take that personally, the reality of transphobia and the tendency for some people to consider us an appropriate outlet for all sorts of their own anxieties, so we kind of have to behave with a little paranoid caution with anyone we interact with.

 No.4142

>>4137
>>4141
I agree with you both. People still get beat up for being gay. People still get beat up for many things...

Even with less important things, it is not always safe to share right away.

 No.4143

File: 1573946896130.png (66.09 KB, 200x200, 1:1, 01.png) ImgOps Google

>>4139
> But if they simply never answer, or omit the information?

That's called rape by deception.

There are a few woefully misinformed trans activists who encourage this, unfortunately.

 No.4145

File: 1573952225270.jpg (100.21 KB, 1024x576, 16:9, 1534300746302.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4143
>That's called rape by deception.
Not in my jurisdiction (PA).  And I think such a "rape by deception" law is quite problematic (and likely to be held void for vagueness as applied in such a case) unless written very narrowly and clearly delineating what sorts of things need to be revealed.  If a woman fakes an orgasm to try to retain a sexual relationship with her boyfriend, should she be imprisoned for rape?  If a person says "I love you" to try to obtain sex, should a jury second-guess whether the speaker really meant it?  If someone worked as a prostitute in the past, should that needed to be revealed, upon pain of imprisonment, even if she subsequently got tested and is not carrying any STDs?  What about IV drug use?

 No.4146

File: 1573952412533.png (61.27 KB, 200x200, 1:1, 09.png) ImgOps Google

>>4145
Look, I'm not going to debate this, I'm just saying it can be considered such. This thread's off the rails enough already.

 No.4148

I don't think I want to say very much about this topic, just watching, but I don't want to be deceptive in general or lie by omission.  I have to think more about this perhaps, how to make everyone happy when talking online.  While I decline dates when finally asked, those who ask must begin to fancy me in their mind at some point, and I suppose people really desire the facts to be brought forth at or before that point, so while I might feel I'm over-identifying or attention-seeking, it probably isn't possible in this case.  So:

I am not human, which is this case means I don't know what the human gender authorities are (do humans even know?), so I don't claim to be any human gender defined by those authorities.  But I am a woman of my kind, that seems right.  If you need medical details to talk to me, don't talk to me, I guess.  I'm not lying by omission, I'm honestly omitting.  Also, I'm in a relationship (with myself) and don't want to date more people.

OK, now I think people can be happy.  :)

 No.4149

File: 1573960292629.jpg (19.32 KB, 289x296, 289:296, Awww Flutter.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4134
Several reports take issue with your idea of being "Black mentally," and after some internal discussion, the staff also feels that your post takes Rule 3 a bit too far, Minty.

We on the staff do not police thoughtcrimes; we do not punish racists, if they keep that to themselves

We understand that /townhall/ is made with the intention of allowing a place for politically incorrect opinions to be debated, provided they are made in good faith, and not in violation of other rules.

You can choose who you don't want to date. You can not like their heritage. But the concept of being "mentally black" is, as one users says, "pretty racist," and identifying that as something that is "inherently unattractive" pushes that boundary past civility

Please consider this a formal warning.

 No.4150

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>>4149
>But the concept of being "mentally black" is, as one users says, "pretty racist," and identifying that as something that is "inherently unattractive"
Mint's post has a typo, but, at least as I parsed his post, he was not saying that being "mentally black" (whatever that might mean) is unattractive.  He was saying that having this sort of surgery was an unattractive.

 No.4151

>>4149
> we do not punish racists, if they keep that to themselves

"Racism is ok so long as you hide it"  doesn't seem like a good policy to have.

 No.4152

>>4137
And what if "when they are ready" is never. What if they feel (or are told) that they never have to tell anyone they are dating they are trans. That their feelings matter more than the other persons?

>>4141
Why does hiding it make more sense, though? Like, isn't it MORE dangerous to hide it from someone who isn't comfortable with it than to just tell them and let the relationship go on or end there?

>>4139
>Then you're out of luck and you have a choice to make.

What choice? You can't mean to choose if they want to date a trans person, because they don't know. Hiding the fact that they are trans removes that choice from the other person. Or are you suggesting they have a choice to remain celibate or to never trust anyone again? If someone is trans, then they should tell someone they are romantic with, and especially if it's sexual.

I'm wondering why >>4080 made a big deal about the "mischaracterization" that trans people are encouraged by the trans community to not divulge that they are trans to romantic partners when it is exactly what this post here is saying. How is that fair to a person who isn't comfortable with dating a trans person? It's an incredibly deceitful and terrible way of thinking. And it's not at all uncommon.

 No.4153

>>4152
You have the choice to trust them or not trust them. Your move. You're at fault for whatever comes from trusting someone that refuses to volunteer that information.

 No.4155

>>4153
How can you be at fault when they actively kept it from you and you had no way of knowing? The only way your statement is viable is if you choose to never trust anyone ever. Which is ridiculous.

 No.4156

>>4153
>>4155
I suppose if you ask the question, and they refuse to answer it, isn't that answer enough?

I don't know, this thread went in a direction I was not expecting but I don't want to delete it because I feel like these are opinions that people should be able to discuss, now that they are here.

 No.4157

File: 1573973978434.jpg (19.32 KB, 289x296, 289:296, Awww Flutter.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>4151
it's more, "your beliefs aren't my business, unless you make it my business." if we start policing people's ideologies, then i'd say, it is a very sorry state of affairs.

>>4150
i can see that too, and that's fair. even outside that interpretation though, the idea that someone can be "mentally black" is unequivocally racist, in a way that is rule-violating.

 No.4158

>>4156
But asking someone if they are trans with no provocation for doing so is 1) Pretty rude and 2) sets a standard of mistrust that is not good for a potential relationship.

I'm sorry this isn't the topic you intended. But it seems people are pretty divided on this topic, especially those with skin in the game when it comes to transgender issues. I just don't think it's right that the trans community promotes this idea that it's somehow OK or justified to lie or to keep it secret from someone you have a romantic and/or sexual relationship with, or wish to pursue either or both of those things with.

>>4157
But they kind of ARE our business if the person's beliefs serve to dehumanize and subjugate our family and friends, is it not?

 No.4159

>>4158
I feel like asking the question if you want to pursue a relationship with them isn't rude, because it would be a valid question?

>sets a standard of mistrust

I mean, I wouldn't think so if you are not being a jerk about it. I feel like asking questions, in a calm and open manner, provides an opportunity for communication to happen.

 No.4160

>>4158
>>4159
And I don't think the whole trans community supports that anyway. Certainly no one I have met yet. I think this may just be a case of who is the loudest.

 No.4161

>>4159
Why does one have to ask at all? It's like having to ask "Hey, so I heard this thing called transsexual people exists, so I gotta ask you, do you got a dick?" is just such a weird burden to put on literally every single person in the world when trans people are such a small portion of the population. Why not just let people know?

It makes less sense to keep it a secret and then let someone who isn't ok with it find out on their own and feel lied to about it than to just let them know. If they aren't OK with it, then neither of you wasted your time or felt betrayed or lied to.

 No.4162

>>4161
I really don't know. I feel it would be just as easy to ask if you are not sure, especially over a space like a forum like this, as it would be for them to tell.

I feel like I have a better answer, but I'm very tired right now. All I can say for sure is that there's certain places and crowds that you don't want to just tell that info, right off the bat. Like 4chan for example. Everyone gets harrassed there for everything. If two people started flirting, and one was trans, the trans person might absolutely want to wait to mention it until they knew the person they were talking to is mentally stable and not biased. Maybe meet them in a public place a few times with some friends first, make sure they aren't the type that's just going to dox and send death threats.

It's not an easily answered question I don't think.

 No.4163

The fact is, whether you think it's right or wrong, no one owes you the answer. And at that point -just as with any other question left unanswered- you have a choice to make. You trust them or you don't. If that causes you personal agony in every other facet of your life, then surely it will here too.

 No.4166

>>4163
But doesn't that means its more important for trans people to be honest about this, so they don't gain a reputation as dishonest people who abuse your trust to spare their own feelings?

 No.4167

>>4166
I don't think so! It's the same with anyone willfully volunteering/not volunteering any information. They're not untrustworthy just 'cause they don't wanna tell you something deeply personal.

 No.4168

The implication of asking someone in the real world "are you transgender?" is that "you look like a non-passing trans person and therefore I have to ask."  If the answer is no, then you've just insulted their appearance in a way that is going to be nearly impossible to recover from.  If the answer is yes, then you've just shown that they aren't passing, and also insulted them.  The question is insulting any way you look at it, and so, anyone with half a brain with the smallest inclination to maybe possibly start a relationship with someone is simply not going to ask it.

Of course there are exceptions, like if you meet someone at a popular hangout for transgender people, a local example might be the "gay" bar, but in most any other circumstance, asking this question is just a bad idea.  At best, you might drop hints in conversation about your thoughts on these matters and look for a response, but even doing this risks making yourself look bad, which is not what you want to do when you're trying to impress someone and possibly start something.

Knowing that it's unreasonable for a person who isn't trans, to ask every person they might be romantically interested in, whether that person they're interested in is trans or not, it thus logically falls to the person who is trans to make that information available to those who would reasonably want to know.  Which means, that during or before that "long talk" phase of any budding relationship, this information needs to come forward.

 No.4169

>>4167
Having an STD is something "deeply personal". I don't think that's an excuse.

>>4168
This right here is what I meant when I said asking someone if they are trans is "rude". It's insulting no matter what the answer is.

 No.4172

>>4168
>>4169
>This right here is what I meant when I said asking someone if they are trans is "rude". It's insulting no matter what the answer is.

Ok I see that now. Suppose I was limiting myself too much to my own experience because I've never much been bothered by questions, and I've been asked before by strangers if I was a boy. Embarrassing, but it's never stuck with me.

However if you are trying to transition and have body disphoria, ok, I can see why a question like that would be much more hurtful.

 No.4173

>>4168
>you look like a non-passing trans person
I gather that is a bad thing to be in a dating context which is why implying such is insulting.  OK.

 No.4175

>>4168
what's the worst that could happen, though? you end up datin' someone with the wrong set of genitals? does that erase all romantic love from the situation and stuff?

 No.4176

>>4173
It's not just a bad thing in a dating context. Trans people want to be seen as and treated as whatever gender they choose to present as. So telling them they are failing at that is insulting. It's fine when it's not a romantic or sexual situation to not divulge that information. But when it becomes either of those things, then it needs to be brought up. Otherwise it's disregarding the other person's feelings and wishes for your own.

>>4175
Some people are not comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable with that. There's a reason we have a designation (pansexual) for people who ARE comfortable with it.

 No.4178

>>4176
OK.

>Otherwise it's disregarding the other person's feelings and wishes for your own.
Hmm...an authority exists somewhere to determine whose feelings are most worthy of regard, yes I think that's that way of it.  For awhile, trying to present as a trans gender might have been making people around feel uncomfortable, so it was a bad thing to do.  Now somehow it is the people uncomfortable with the transgender presentation whose feelings have less legitimacy, at least in many places.  Some authority determines whose feeling matter the most, I don't quite know how it works.  I accept what you say, I don't know of anything to counter it, it is therefore appropriate for a trans gender person to give rough information about their genitals (and genital history, if needed) at first date, failure means entering a date without proper consent, a kind of rape?  Maybe that's too strong, but like that.

 No.4179

>>4178
Authority can be separated from morality.

Sometimes it is more important to think in terms of morality, than in terms of authority.

 No.4180

>>4179
I wrote a longer response, then erased it, because I think it will start a tangent.  I'll say simply I watch people fight over moral issues, and look to some additional entity to tell me which of the fighting parties is more moral.  It's the best I've come up with so far.

 No.4181

>>4178
>>4180
I've seen you talking about "authority" like this in other threads, and I have to say it's rather strange. Most people don't base their feelings or morality on some kind of "authority". Why do you keep going on about this?

 No.4182

>>4180
>and look to some additional entity to tell me which of the fighting parties is more moral.


You may not always be able to look to some additional entity; you may have to make the choice yourself, of which is more moral, based on your own experience.

I also want to point out that I do not think fighting is happening in this thread. I think discussion is happening, and disagreements, which help to come to an agreement.

 No.4183

>>4152
>Why does hiding it make more sense, though? Like, isn't it MORE dangerous to hide it from someone who isn't comfortable with it than to just tell them and let the relationship go on or end there?

Because telepathy doesn't actually exist and no one can know for certain that someone would or would not be uncomfortable, much less if they would react with violence or some other form of abuse.

 No.4184

>>4181
>>4182
I don't think it's good to discuss here.  I go on about it because I think it, and as this thread is talking about honesty and not lying by omission, I must be as clear as possible.  I think it because I am a strange creature, but that's not a topic of this thread, so I don't know.  >>4182
> I do not think fighting is happening in this thread
I'm thinking more in general, not so much this thread.

 No.4185

>>4184
Ah ok

 No.4186

This is maybe a good thread for general topics about ethics.  If links work across threads, I don't know.
>>4007

 No.4187

>>4183
So it's better to just disregard all people's feelings to spare your own? I think it's better to just tell someone and if they aren't OK with it, then neither has wasted their time.

>>4184
Maybe you should make a thread about it. I was enjoying you science thread.

 No.4196

>>4187
>>4187

Manley, that is a *ridiculously* disengenuous strawman

 No.4198

>>4187
>So it's better to just disregard all people's feelings to spare your own?
You forgot this part:
>>4183
> no one can know for certain that someone would or would not ... react with violence
And see also >>4162
> make sure they aren't the type that's just going to dox and send death threats.

 No.4199

>>4196
Ok for starters, you shouldn't call other users out as being a specific person. This board is anonymous for a reason.

Second, I don't agree anything I've said is a "strawman". If you want to point at something in particular we are discussing and point out why it's inaccurate, then I'll engage you in that conversation.

>>4198
I don't see how any of that is relevant. There are people in this world who would kill me for being non-white. Yet, I don't hide that fact, nor would I if I could. Furthermore, I would not want to date someone who was not comfortable dating a non-white person, so why keep it from them?

 No.4200

>>4199

you don't see how a fear of death threats or physical violence in a society that's largely transphobic is relevant?

 No.4201

File: 1574141533249.png (412.88 KB, 900x760, 45:38, trans-plant.png) ImgOps Google

>>4199
> Furthermore, I would not want to date someone who was not comfortable dating a non-white person, so why keep it from them?
Online dating websites advise that the parties meet in public for their first date.  Do you understand the reasoning behind this advice?

 No.4202

>>4199
>>4199

>nor would I if I could.

Yeah this is getting ridiculously transphobic.

 No.4203

Thread is locked while we discuss a report that just came in.

 No.4224

While Proud Parrot and Fancy Dog disagree, and on a topic that Fancy Dog may hold very personally, we've decided that doesn't mean any rules were broken.  /townhall/ is a forum at least partially for discussing morality, which inevitably means that people with different ideas of right and wrong are going to show up and share their thoughts on the matter.

In this case, the discussion is about when to reveal yourself as trans to a potential romantic partner, and no answer you could give to that question is without pros and cons.  The discussion seems very legitimate.


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