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 No.4027

File: 1573341821873.png (296.6 KB, 1024x1188, 256:297, twilight_sparkle__2_by_vad….png) ImgOps Google

"It wouldn't be an issue if we let kids wear whatever clothes they wanted and play with whatever toys they wanted.
I always wanted soldier toys but my brother wanted barbies. My parents should have just let him wear pink and play with barbies.
If society didn't box people by their genitals, we wouldn't have people trying to jump into the other box.
You don't see many people saying they identify as brown-eyed. That's because eye color doesn't dictate how people treat you."

Do you agree or disagree?  Do gender roles serve a useful enough function in modern society to justify their existence?  Or should socially encouragement/enforcement of gender roles be relaxed/eliminated?

 No.4028

Also, is there a strong biological component to gender roles, or are they mostly cultural?

 No.4029

I'd definitely agree, yes.  In modern life, gender identity should mean next to nothing, and society's attempts to force meaning upon it is what's causing people to chafe against society's labels.

 No.4031

>>4027
> we wouldn't have people trying to jump into the other box
I'm confused a bit.  Is this a thread about the cause of transgenderism?

 No.4032

>>4031
The question of gender roles contributing to transgenderism would certainly be on-topic for this thread.

 No.4033

Some aspects of gender roles are societal, no doubt. Like, for example, pink being a "feminine" color is a cultural thing, a fairly recent one at that. You could easily have a society where women wear black. But some aspects of it are not cultural.

 No.4034

>>4027
The majority of gender roles are social constructs. Some are completely arbitrary (E.G. pink for girls, blue for boys), some are extrapolations on harder, evolutionary-bound factors (E.G. men being considered "fighters" and women "caretakers" based on that having been part of the larger evolutionary survival strategy).  I think culture is the vast majority of it.

I think gender identity typically being a vital part of courtship and sex is going to doom it to not make sense forever. That general space seems to be something humans will never be able to really form sensible cultural rules to, while being a strong enough idea that it's difficult to let go of. It's useful knowledge to have, too. If you were a bisexual gender-nonconforming person, with no knowledge of things, and you, say, wanted to have sexual relations, with no particular preference for the particulars. you'd very quickly learn that it's much easier to engage in sexual relations with certain groups than others, based on a number of things, such as what part of the world you're in, what you look like, and the way each gender as a whole forms it's cultural mythos around sex. So to optimize, you'd take on the straight female role and seek copulation with straight men. The point here is that knowing the different mythos around how groups and cultures tend to think and behave is critical knowledge. It's harder to navigate the world without it, and so upending those rules would not only be very difficult, but also not sensible without a clearly-established replacement that makes sense, is consistent, is functional, and which the majority of people would acknowledge. People aren't just going to change behaviors when you ask them to, even if nobody in particular wants it. Like a less extreme version of a police state that no individual likes, but since dissenters are killed, no effective opposition can arise. So it is with our current situation with the idea of gender. It's a moderate burden to try and work against because it's the established norm, so few people really try to challenge it in a meaningful way, and those who do are going to have an uphill struggle.

Gender roles ultimately serve as a social blueprint. I think it's a rather poor blueprint, but i think it's better than just uprooting them without establishing something new that the majority of people can agree on, or at least acknowledge. I'm not sure forming a new blueprint is possible, i certainly don't think it's possible in the current environment. Hell, certain places are trying. GQ is trying to redefine masculinity now, in rather hilariously fashion.  https://www.gq.com/story/voices-of-the-new-masculinity. It's a clusterfuck that can't function. Our current system is shit, but it's basically functional. Not only will people not accept this new system, but they'll mock those who try to establish it (rightfully so in this particular circumstance, if you ask me, as much of it is simply avocation of eliminating traditional masculinity and having everyone default to traditional femininity, not very thoughtful or creative, and more importantly, almost certainly non-functional). I think that would happen even with a system more than simply trying to yell at men to feminize or yell at the established order without having any real ideas on how to replace it. Even if someone did come up with a better idea, implementation is going to be a BITCH, if it's achievable at all.

 No.4035

File: 1573393137438.png (819.99 KB, 1246x1024, 623:512, ice.png) ImgOps Google

>>4027 >>4032  Ok.
>Do you agree or disagree?
Well, I disagree that people choose an opposite gender to get around gender enforcement, as least for the most part.  I've read some people transition in retirement, presumably after parents, school staff, bosses, or another authority figure might regulate gendered behavior.

>Do gender roles serve a useful enough function in modern society to justify their existence?

To the degree it might be up to me, I'd say, mostly no.  Of course, I have no children and know better than to interfere with how parents raise their kids, so who is allowed to play with barbies or toy soldiers is what it is.

 No.4036

>>4033
I'd also like to point out that as a straight cis person, someone's gender is important to me. I'm not pansexual, and would not be comfortable dating a trans person.

 No.4037

>>4034
I largely agree here.

I think from my own personal perspective, we shouldn't be looking to force change so much as coerce acceptance of differrence.

If we could put more of a societal emphasis on both physical and mental health, and learning to accept differrences, and how to handle situations where those differrences may lead to conflict, I think this would go much farther.

 No.4059

File: 1573474760800.png (273.91 KB, 431x455, 431:455, I don't get it.png) ImgOps Google

>>4027
>It wouldn't be an issue if we let kids wear whatever clothes they wanted and play with whatever toys they wanted.
If my kid wants to run around naked at a public event, would that be acceptable?

Should we by default drop society's expectation on everything?

 No.4060

>>4059
>Should we by default drop society's expectation on everything?
No, I wouldn't want people to be rude and anti social for the sake of dropping social expectations. But letting a child chose their favorite color, toys, and clothing is completely harmless to society and should be allowed.

 No.4062

>>4059
>If my kid wants to run around naked at a public event, would that be acceptable?
Why wouldn't it be acceptable, as long as there is no danger of (hypothermia or frostbite) and adequate precautions are taken against UV damage?

 No.4081

>>4027
>"It wouldn't be an issue if we let kids wear whatever clothes they wanted and play with whatever toys they wanted.
>I always wanted soldier toys but my brother wanted barbies. My parents should have just let him wear pink and play with barbies.

Completely agree

>If society didn't box people by their genitals, we wouldn't have people trying to jump into the other box.
>You don't see many people saying they identify as brown-eyed. That's because eye color doesn't dictate how people treat you."


100% disagree.

My childhood access to girls things had no bearing on whether or not my subconscious mind expects my body to be shaped and to function different than it does and causes me a low level panic when my ability to disassociate from my body is compromised from something like say, something touching my genitals.

Girly things may serve the function of appearing to be a girl in the mirror, but we don't identify the way we do based on what roles we can or cannot fill.


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