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 No.365

File: 1561570214520.png (210.27 KB, 829x1063, 829:1063, 5db9e63df83eeb51fca73c2e32….png) ImgOps Google

This isn't so much of a debate topic or anything as a general sense of questions that have bugged me lately. There's three things sticking on my mind after spending too much time looking at 4chan /lgbt/.

A)What do you think is the best and succinct way to explain being 'non-binary' to people, like in a paragraph speech form?

B)What do you think is the best way to explain this as being distinct from being 'stereotypically transgender' in the sense of having to take hormones, eventually have surgery, and so on?

C)Do you agree with the idea of there being a kind of 'transgender umbrella' that extends over a wide group of people, or would you define that term more narrowly?

 No.368

I'm not transgender or non-binary, but as is my understanding Transsexual people feel what they call "body dismorphia". The whole "woman trapped in a man's body" And there is some science to this because certain regions of the brain of transsexual people remember the brains of people of the opposite gender. In short, a transsexual person has a "female" brain in a "male" body and vice-versa. SOmeone once explained it to me like "if a wizard stuck your brain in a lady's body and changed nothing else, would you suddenly consider yourself a woman? No, you'd be weirded out by it. Might be fun at first, but eventually you'd feel weird. You'd want your body back, or atleast a male one. Because you're a man."

Non-binary is a little harder to explain, but from my outsiders perspective, it's people who don't feel the fit into any concrete gender. Which is harder to explain because that's aspect of gender is just a social thing.

 No.370

>There's three things sticking on my mind after spending too much time
/lgbt/ is... not a nice place.

The best way to get these kinds of informations would be to actually check out non-binary people's experiences directly, you know. But I guess, not just from 4chan, also from some more varied sources.

here are a few resources
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVe8wpmH_lU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36egVNVBqZU (yes contra is trans, but was genderqueer for a period of time (after this) and is a pretty good resource, I guess)
https://www.youtube.com/user/HeyThere005

Anyway, I will now straight cis-male mansplain.

>A
The easiest way to explain Non-binary to people in a paragraph... It's not easy. There's very little chance that any sort of single paragraph could convince someone of the validity of NB people. I think you can try to explain the concept, but you can't explain it such that it appears valid to someone biased against it.

My way of explaining it would be:
A NB person is a person who believes they belong to some seperate category, or wish not to be defined as belong to traditional masculine or feminine gender. It can be that they are not male, or female, but floating around somewhere in between. They may be male or female 90% of the time, and then have brief moments of experiencing themselves like the other gender, or experiencing themselves in some way not compatible with any gender at all.

>B
NB people are often gender critical. They question, whether or not the constructs of gender are actually purposeful, or whether they are useful categorizations. In order to escape partially the opressive feeling of being categorized, many people choose this non-binary designation for themselves.

This is different from transgender people, who wish to be experienced as the opposite gender. Transgender people, essentially view gender constructs as being an adequate thing for them, something that they can transition into, and function from, but for a non-binary person, neither construct is a tenable solution.

>C
I'm not sure, you'd have to define the idea of a transgender umbrella.

 No.373

>>370
A lot of that makes sense. To be honest, it strikes me personally as I've always fluttered between the notion of 'you're not trans, you're just non-binary' / 'you're not non-binary, you're trans' for a lot of my own personal life. It's rough. But I guess there's some clarity in terms of really seeing that I don't fit in terms of either gender box really.

r.e. the umbrella metaphor, I see it used in places such as: https://www.scottishtrans.org/trans-rights/an-intro-to-trans-terms/transgender-umbrella/

 No.374

>>373
Ahh, I see!

I guess if it's a helpful way of categorizing for the scottish trans equality group then I'm all for it's usage! It could be a good political tool for communicating transgenderism and associated gender critical concepts.

I would always prefer to be more specific myself, I think. Generalizing this broadly is a bit reductive.

 No.375

>A)What do you think is the best and succinct way to explain being 'non-binary' to people, like in a paragraph speech form?

Common knowledge is there's two genders, but more current knowledge and exploration reveals that gender isn't that simple.  Most people have gender, or even sex, related qualities that don't match what they normally go by, but it isn't usually enough to remove someone from that gender label, kind of like rounding to the nearest whole number.  A non-binary person is someone so in the middle on that scale that it's difficult to round them to any one value.  It's also possible that they're still discovering themselves and changing a lot, which also makes it hard to identify them.

>B)What do you think is the best way to explain this as being distinct from being 'stereotypically transgender' in the sense of having to take hormones, eventually have surgery, and so on?

If you were "stereotypically transgender", then you actually do fall on the scale somewhere close enough to round towards a gender, it's just not the one you were born physically representing.  Hormones and surgery correct this for people who say "I am definitely this defined gender."

>C)Do you agree with the idea of there being a kind of 'transgender umbrella' that extends over a wide group of people, or would you define that term more narrowly?

It depends a lot on context.  In a general sense I don't think the details of this sort of thing are especially important to the layperson, so I am in favor of keeping things as simple as possible.  In a lot of cases "queer" is a simple catch-all term that just means "your gender and sexuality are different from normal" and if someone needs to know more than that and have things explained then it's probably because you're in or seeking a long term relationship, so it shouldn't have to be explained all that many times.

 No.377

File: 1561595043825.jpeg (228.07 KB, 1200x898, 600:449, goskateboard.jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>365
OK, I will try.  This is hard because things are not the same everywhere and everytime.

>A

Um...human states and institutions sometimes only allow two genders and make rules for these genders.  That is binary gender.  Something else is non-binary gender.

>B

Sometimes states allow people to be reassigned a gender if they change their body enough and prove themselves worthy enough.  I think something else is non-binary, again.

>C

In the social world, I'm liberal about words, so whatever.

 No.378

>>373
>To be honest, it strikes me personally as I've always fluttered between the notion of 'you're not trans, you're just non-binary' / 'you're not non-binary, you're trans' for a lot of my own personal life. It's rough. But I guess there's some clarity in terms of really seeing that I don't fit in terms of either gender box really.
You can be both, you know. There are people who consider themselves non-binary trans women (or trans men), or simply transfeminine/transmasculine, and that's valid.

Also, you can be non-binary and take hormones.

 No.383

I've been looking for a place to post this, and I think this could be an appropriate thread, if you don't mind op.

I watched this a couple nights ago and have been wondering if this could play a role in disphyoria

 No.392

File: 1561666738618.png (1.41 MB, 3400x3000, 17:15, 6D1CCF4B-FFB8-46D1-BF08-9E….png) ImgOps Google

Can someone please explain what non-binary people are?

(Warning, extreme ignorance, and possible bigotry ahead.)
Even before I started talking to trans women regularly, both about their condition and just in general, I (for the most part) understood what transgenderism was and fully accepted it. At worst I was bit unsure about it, but I never thought, nor would I have explicitly said that trans women aren’t women, and even if I did I still wouldn’t want to be rude about it.

Although I just can’t understand or fully accept non-binary people. Transgender people have both major physical (mainly the brain) and mental characteristics that distinguish them from cis people. But as far as I know non-binary people don’t. Seems like most non-binary people don’t even suffer from dysphoria.

In my mind non-binary people are just normal people that act or think of themselves as more feminine or masculine, but not fully either. And rather than take into account the fact that most people aren’t completely masculine or feminine, they decide to diagnose themselves as non-binary. I don’t think a guy that wears dresses, does makeup, or acts in some other stereotypically feminine way should see himself as anything more than I guy who has a feminine personality and likes feminine things, unless he has actual gender dysphoria.

Why can’t non-binary people just accept that most people don’t fully conform to gender stereotypes, so the fact that they don’t either isn’t really anything significant, and certainly doesn’t make them an entirely different gender, unless they have gender dysphoria? Or am I missing something?

 No.395

>>392
I've wondered the same thing. It seems to me that being "non-binary" doesn't have an explainable component to it, and is based entirely off of someone's feelings. Which is harder to quantify and easier to dismiss. I wonder how many people go along with non-binary being a thing just because they don't want to step on any toes and upset anyone.

 No.401

If you do not want to and are not active pursuing transition into the opposite gender, you are not transgender. It's as simple as that.

Many, many people who nowadays call themselves "transgender" are not transgender. They are attention-seekers with no intention of transitioning. They literally just call themselves "transgender" because it's the trendy thing to do, spitting on all people who are legitimately suffering from dysphoria in the progress.

Non-binary is a hollow term from Tumblr with no meaning, used purely and exclusively for attention and popularity and nothing else. You can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual. If you think you have dysphoria but you don't want to transition, then you do not have dysphoria.

Asexuality and gender dysphoria are both pushing it, but if you truly want to be a completely genderless amoeba with no distinguishing sexual features... That is not a sexual identity. That is real mental sickness.

 No.404

>>401
>If you think you have dysphoria but you don't want to transition, then you do not have dysphoria.

But what if the person doesn't want to transition from fear of losing family, or being hurt by other people?

I mean, I think there is some leeway

 No.405

>>404

That doesn't mean they don't want to transition. They would still take the opportunity if they could do it without social concequences. They're just scared to do it due to outside influences.

There's a big difference between being unable to do it for social or financial reasons, and simply not having the desire to transition at all while making excuses for yourself. The key it being honest with yourself, which sadly a lot of people seem to be incapable of nowadays.

 No.499

>>368
I kind of wish a wizard would put my brain in a woman's body and just... leave it there. I sleep with fake boobs on sometimes.

good description

 No.501

>>392
hello, I made this: >>370 post

I still stand by the way I've introduced nonbinary people here, so I'll try to answer your other concerns, with that as a background.

>Although I just can’t understand or fully accept non-binary people. Transgender people have both major physical (mainly the brain) and mental characteristics that distinguish them from cis people. But as far as I know non-binary people don’t. Seems like most non-binary people don’t even suffer from dysphoria.
I think non-binary people do suffer from dysphoria. There are about a million ways to be non-binary. Some things that it is common to feel dysphoria around:
Hair.
Height.
Chest.
Hips.
Thighs.
Face.
Social expectations.
The way you yourself feel pushed to act in social situation.

If you have a feature that elicits dysphoria, one thing that could occur is, when you percieve this feature of yourself in the mirror, hear them in a recording, or think about what you've done, you won't even recognize it as your own. It will feel alien, almost like someone attatched a foreign body part to you, and it's leeching off of your circulatory system and making you do and look in ways that feel off.

There's good evidence to corroborate this kind of feeling of dysphoria, specifically in genitals, where we see cis people that are born with penises tend to have phantom erections as a part of a complex phantom limb syndrome tied to penile amputations, where as anyone that has a tendency towards dysphoria towards the other sex, usually do not get these kinds of phantom erection feelings, when penises are amputated for medical reasons, giving the impression that their external physical characteristics are not mapped onto their somatosensory cortex in a way that matches their assigned gender, which obviously creates some incongruiety in the mind.

This theory of what dysphoria manifests itself as emotionally and cognitively, as a part of our somatosensory cortex, or any other brain part, is thought to be possible to occur regarding almost any physical or social characteristic, and non-binary people do very much experience dysphoria in many cases, and may thus have a strong need to act or look in ways that are highly unusual for their gender. We do not have strong scientific evidence for a neurological difference between NB people and Cis people, as far as I'm aware, but that does not mean it does not exist, as the theory is virtually unstudied as of right now. It's very much the cutting edge in cognitive neuroscience.

Dysphoria is not the same as not liking something. I can look in the mirror and see something about myself that I don't like, like the tendency for my skin to dry around my nose, or my split ends in my hair, or anything like this, without feeling like that thing I dislike, doesn't belong to me, or is alien. NB people, do not usually simply have a dislike for some facets of gender expression, they usually have feelings of dysphoria regarding them.

Dysphoria and feelings of insecurity/dislike, *can* be like a venn diagram. Sometimes they overlap.

>I don’t think a guy that wears dresses, does makeup, or acts in some other stereotypically feminine way should see himself as anything more than I guy who has a feminine personality and likes feminine things, unless he has actual gender dysphoria.
If it was just about how a person categorizes himself this would be great, but it's about more than this.

I think I can tell, that the reason why you don't like the concept of non-binary is because you think it's a bit of a pain for people that have to interact with the non-binary person, to have to suddenly accomodate a new view of what a woman or man, or human can be, into their usually very cis-het normative system of categorization that they use in their day to day life. It seems like a large intrusion, that everyone should have to do this for this minority.

The thing is, though, if you think about it, that effort goes to a very valuable place. The effort we expend to categorize the other person, is a huge service to them. It's something that allows them to live feeling the same amount of suffering, and the same amount of disorder, as a person born with an assigned gender matching their actual gender. It is thus worth it, to accomodate people's wishes, because it alleviates a lot of suffering.

It is not so much a diagnosis of non-binaryness as it is a statement of fact. Hey, this is what I am, this is how I need to experience myself, and if you'd like to be nice to me, and help me avoid suffering, you can respect that, and if you don't have the energy to that day, or if you slip up, this is okay, but at the fundamental level, it would help me become a more functional and congruent person, if you could do this for me. This is basically the gist of it, as I see it. It's not something imagined or delusional, it's a concrete and indisputable personal experience that non-binary people have, that we of course don't have access to or ability to measure as we are all locked in our own consciousness, but must nonetheless accept as being accurate, if we're being generous. The experiences described by NB people align themselves well with current scientific knowledge as a possibility, and we have no way of verifying the veracity of the claim 100% accurately, so it seems only generous and good, to aknowledge their experience as truthful, unless it directly contradicts some concrete knowledge, and accomodate them into society, as we are able and willing.

>Why can’t non-binary people just accept that most people don’t fully conform to gender stereotypes, so the fact that they don’t either isn’t really anything significant, and certainly doesn’t make them an entirely different gender, unless they have gender dysphoria? Or am I missing something?
If I was to say you were missing anything, it would be the fact that non-binary people don't understand, that most people don't fully conform to gender stereotypes. Non-binary people are very aware of this. But there's maybe a sliding scale of non-conformity, and at some point it crosses the point of being barely noteworthy exception, to being full-blown disorder, if not adressed. And you still aren't close enough to the opposite gender, maybe, to make a full transition without still feeling very dysfunctional. In this situation, the established binary damns you to a life of suffering. So naturally, you push back, and hope that people will respect it.

 No.502

>>501
Again. White cis-het male. Go listen to actual non-binary people, and hear the ways they like to talk about it.

I'm just trying to bring the facts that I'm aware of as a person that studies neuropsychology and has some NB friends.

 No.503

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>>501
>>502
Thanks a lot, that really helps!

Although I think I’ll have to actually meet some non-binary people before I fully understand them.

 No.504

>>503
np <3

This is Eph, btw. Hope you're doing well.

 No.507

I used to watch videos by this one youtuber a while back. Was never a huge fan, but caught a couple of their videos because they were on a site with other contributors. In one video I saw her reviewing an anime, and they were utterly perplexed when they saw a male character urinate and then shake up and down a little after he did so. She went on to explain her asking her male friends about it. Turns out she was completely unaware of the after-pee dick shake male people do. It was kind of hilarious to me. Like I get that she wouldn't know about it because she was female, but to think something that is part of my life daily would so confuse someone else was shocking in a funny way.

Years go by, and later on I hear that the person who created that video had come out as transsexual and was living as a man now. it made me think, Isn't someone who had so little knowledge of the male experience living as a man now sort of strange? How does that work? I've never had a good time or place to bring it up, but it's been in the back of my mind for a while now.

 No.788



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