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 No.2957

File: 1570066689575.png (480.91 KB, 700x301, 100:43, american-psycho.png) ImgOps Google

According to studies done by psychologist Kevin Dutton, CEOs are the occupation with the highest percentage of psychopaths working them. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace#Careers_with_highest_proportion_of_psychopaths).

Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies? Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not, or is humanity always destined to have the worst people in the highest positions of power and influence?

 No.2987

>>2957
>Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies?

Yes.

>Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not,

No.

The best we can do is try to limit how much power any one person is able to attain, regardless of their methods.

 No.3003

>>2987
But if only the worst people have power, how can we prevent that?

 No.3004

>>2957
>>2987
>>Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies?

Yes, sadly :c

>Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not,

did someone say... hypothetical? c:

 No.3006

>>3004
I'm... not sure what posting this video is trying to communicate.

 No.3009

File: 1570069562716.png (434.52 KB, 652x565, 652:565, silly smile 2.png) ImgOps Google

>>3006
>>3006
it was mostly just joking c:

hypothetically, the natural end state of capitalism is communism which, hypothetically, would not be a system that disproportionately advantages the sociopathic.

...which of course, requires a lot of assuming this and that.

 No.3013

>>3009
yeah, communism would in theory, but not in practice!

 No.3016

File: 1570070074716.png (130.85 KB, 401x433, 401:433, happy shy 3.png) ImgOps Google

>>3013
if Marx is correct, we shall find out on our own eventually if that is the case! And if he is not correct, then maybe you are already right!  

 No.3019

>>3003

I'm not sure we've really figured that out yet.

 No.3020

File: 1570070526461.png (616.82 KB, 1500x951, 500:317, Eternal Ponies is Super Fu….png) ImgOps Google


 No.3024

>>3016
I don't think the US would ever adopt communism. It has a bad reputation.

 No.3027

>>3020

I've certainly heard worse ideas!

 No.3035

>Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies?

Yes. Psychopaths will be more willing than other people to trade values for economic gains, and will thereby succeed in a capitalist economy. They'll be more willing to use slave labor, work extra hours, and otherwise trade basic humanity for bottom-line.

>Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not, or is humanity always destined to have the worst people in the highest positions of power and influence?

Very tough question. The ultimate problem is the balance between what we want society to look like (lots  of freedom, general high standards of living, lots of hapiness, ect), and what naturally succeeds in society (ruthlessness, willingness to sacrifice anything and everything for success, low standards to ensure mass spread, ect).

I was reading an article that was linked in one of the other threads, and the author has a long, but really really good, take on the issue
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

 No.3036

>>3035
There's also this chilling poem about it that sums things up more succinctly:
--------------------------------------

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

 No.3050

>>2957
Capitalism? No.
Corporatism? Definitely.

 No.3061

>>3050
could you explain the difference?

 No.3063

>>3061
I'd recommend the Wikipedia page on "Corporatocracy"; I think this is what Shy Crocodile is referring to. The page on "Corporatism" is about something completely different.

 No.3066

>>2957

>Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies?

It rewards people with extremist views in general (though limited by what is profitable in a capitalist context), as this is the basis of innovation.

>Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not, or is humanity always destined to have the worst people in the highest positions of power and influence?

No scarcity-based system will reward behavior which is beneficial to society as a whole. We have to implement a post-scarcity, resource-based system to promote beneficient behavior.

 No.3067

>>3066
>No scarcity-based system will reward behavior which is beneficial to society as a whole.
Isn't one of the main points of government to solve the freeloader problem and the tradegy of the commons and thereby benefit society as a whole?

 No.3070

>>3067

Theoretically, yes. But the government can only provide extrinsic rewards in a scarcity society.

But a post-scarcity society cultivates an environment in which people are motivated by intrinsic rewards. Thus, extrinsic rewards become secondary, making for a better society in which people are encouraged to follow their own paths, regardless of profitability, to the benefit of the society as a whole.

 No.3078

>>3066
Well I think it rewards the psychopathic and sociopathic more, i think. They dont feel remorse for harming others, so they are more willing to betray and back-stab to get ahead, and step on people beneith them. And capitalism is rewards that kind of cut-throat attitude. People willing to do anything for profit, unbound by morals get more capital. And yhe more capital you have in capitalism, the more power you have.

>a post-scarcity, resource-based system

What does a post-scarcity society look like? Do you mean like the society in Star Trek? Is it acheiveable?

 No.3079

>>3061
In essence what i mean is there's a major difference with what's effectively crony-capitalism and proper, free market competition capitalism.
The system we have at the moment heavily incentivises large businesses exploiting law to the determent of smaller businesses who can't afford corporate lobbyists or fleets of lawyers to creatively interpret law.

The system we have at the moment encourages exploitation and dishonest dealing, frankly. I do not think that's a fault of capitalism on its own, however, as I believe these are primarily required due to the way the law is set at the moment.

 No.3088

I think capitalism is structured in such a way that diseases and disorders are only regularly diagnosed in the powerful and wealthy.

 No.3089

>>3079
So what would be different in a system that was healthier?

 No.3090

>>3089
One without a lot of the laws that allow larger companies to shut down competitors.
Mainly, getting rid of things like copyright and patents, at least for the duration that they can last for, would I believe help a ton.
Otherwise, it's mostly getting rid of loopholes and tax breaks and subsidies that only the ones who can track them down and pay off politicians for get to exploit.
Some deregulation would probably also help.

 No.3100

>>3088
That's interesting. Are you suggesting CEOs don't actually have a higher percentage of psychopaths and sociopaths, but that they are just diagnosed more often? I'm not sure I agree. Capitalism is set up to reward the ruthless and the cold-blooded.

 No.3109

>>2957
>Is capitalism structured in such a way that it disproportionally rewards those with psychopathic and/or sociopathic tendencies?

I'm not sure.  It seems some corporations do, though.

>>3016
Marx inferred exponential processes, considered at some point inequality would become sufficiently intolerable that the majority could only survive through a political revolution, and a wise revolution would solve the root problem with something better than capitalism.

>>3024
Yeah, people really don't like that  one.

>Is there a hypothetical economic system that does not, or is humanity always destined to have the worst people in the highest positions of power and influence?

Well, if you want to be a positive person, you assert humanity does a good job of choosing leadership.

But to  the first part of the question, it is hard.  Most sociopaths end up without much power -- they get in trouble.  The ones that become CEO's and whatever are sociopaths who are charming and smart.  You're asking how to keep (seemingly, at least) charming smart people from rising?

Well, you'd either need a system so decentralized that there's nowhere to rise to, exactly.  Unlikely in practice.

Or you need better data on people and a willingness to consider it.  Most people  will only discover a high functioning sociopath through long experience -- finding they continuously ask loyalty but give none in return.  And these people are probably extremely intelligent, so you need a lot of data, and to be smart enough to get past the subterfuge.  That's a lot to ask of an economic system.

 No.3113

>>3109
>You're asking how to keep (seemingly, at least) charming smart people from rising?

You can be charming and smart while also not being a sociopath, though. So no, that doesn't follow. I want to keep sociopaths and psychopaths out of power.

 No.3123

>>3113
>You can be charming and smart while also not being a sociopath, though.
Yes, I think so.  The filter would have to be in more data, since at the interview the charming good and charming bad person seem the same.

Although from your article "Psychopathic New Business Media Sales Executive Superstar!" means people might accept a psychopath as long as they are *their* psychopath.  So that points to muting the adversarial nature of capitalism.  Maybe.  I know examples from tech history where people were cooperative and nice until they started to see the potential for profits and patents, and the community aspect vanished, progress slowed.  If you want a more cooperative economic system, it's probably some variant of communism.

 No.3143

>>3123
But doesn't communism always break down because psychopathic and sociopathic people work their way to the highest positions?

 No.3150

>>3143
Lenin, Stalin, and Mao...yeah, probably psychopathic tendencies.

You know, you think about, say, an army general -- who may potentially have to order thousands to their death.  Can you do that without being a bit of a psychopath?  Maybe you can, but it seems a bit callous to count lives, or in the case of CEO's, livelihoods, in a spreadsheet.  What are you thoughts on that?

 No.3160

>>3150
It's my opinion that a lot of people in the armed forces more than likely have some psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies. Although, not all. If they all did, so many soldiers would not return from war with regret and trauma for their actions. They would not grasp at straws like "I was only following orders" to justify what they did, not just to others, but to themselves. Some soldiers do not do this. They come back and brag about how many of  "dem bastards" they killed, but lament never getting that "knife kill".

So some, not all.

 No.3175

>>3160
Seems like you'd want to create a society, then that minimizes positions of great power, as a person with too much empathy for individuals would avoid them.

Of course, you're not talking as much about states as economic systems (although they are related).  If capitalism and communism are sorta out...um, what are the other choices?  Maybe that's what you're asking the crowd.

 No.3182

>>3175
>Maybe that's what you're asking the crowd.

In a sense, yes. I know that more than one economic system exists, I'd be interested in ideas for ones that do not promote the sociopathic to high positions of power.

> that minimizes positions of great power, as a person with too much empathy for individuals would avoid them.

Not necessarily. Just systems that do not favor the sociopathic, and thus put them in those positions.

 No.3190

>>3182
>systems that do not favor the sociopathic
Philosopher-kings.  Hmm...well, I can ask, have there been past periods when there were proportionally more and fewer sociopathic people in power, and under what economic system?  Confess my knowledge of history is not that good.  I could pick leaders that most would say are sociopaths, I think it correlates to positions of absolute power over a state, though.  (Especially in ways that make trouble for the US.)

Sorry.  Maybe someone else will know better.  I have to go to work now.

 No.3191

>>3190
I can't think of any, but someone else might be able to weigh in.


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