>>333>How do you know, that the instances you've been told about where women tolerate this there was not a clear indicator of consent? How do you know that you're not exhibiting confirmation bias, since your world view is based on a summation of single cases, likely from disparate sources? How do you know that the women this is done to don't secretly hate it, and only tolerate it because they're scared what will happen if they don't, or any number of actually very plausible reasons? How do you know that you have to scrupulously assess consent? Is it not just intuitively obvious, when consent is given? And again, is asking going to be a problem, or can you actually do it in a way that is effective?
There's a flaw in your arugment here. If consent is obvious, than that's how one would know if there was a clear indicator of consent. If consent is not obvious, than women are creating a system of dishonesty and guesswork, you might call this system rape culture...>If you've ever read women's testimonies, or talked to your lady friends about these kinds of issues. You'll know that they value consent immensely, and that their biggest turnoff bar nearly none, is sexually agressive openers. This strategy, is just not as effective as you think. And the guys who think they're forced into it, they're often deluding themselves, or being deluded by this culture of rape.
No woman is ever going to admit that she is turned off by honesty and morality. It would be social suicide. It makes far more sense socially to play the victim rather than admit that repsect is a turn off and being treated like shit turns her on. What people say =/= what people do. This applies to men and women, to everyone.
You're arguing that because we only have sparce evidence, we can't make a claim, despite you presenting no better evidence, and in my opinion, much shakier arguments which fall apart simply by looking at the circumstance of the world we live in. >Additionally, if it is largely unintentional, then how can you ever say that they are responsible for this. Even if we accept your representation of reality, they're not aware that they're forcing guys to do this, and even if they were aware, they have zero agency to prevent it as an individual.
Just because it's not intentional doesn't mean the aren't the ones. And they do have agency. If you like what a man is doing, fuck him! If you don't, don't fuck him! Or don't fuck anyone, but treat the people who treat you nicely better than those who treat you badly. Simple.>Women have every right to be dissatisfied with the behaviors of men that do this or with the culture that allows it.
Absolutely! And if they were actually dissatisfied, they might do something about it! Like have sex with different people! Men have 3 options. Stay home and not affect the system. Be decent and get rejected, also not affecting the system. Or be an ass and get sexual success, still not affecting the system. If you think men are in a position to change things, then please, tell me how they would do so?>It cannot be rationally argued as being their fault, by any stretch, I think.
I have done so, and you have not provided logical arguments to the contrary, you've just appealed to emotion, and tried to falsely equate acknowledgement of a bad system with approval of a bad system.>Y'all are seriously willing to die on this hill, that ignoring consent is necesseary to romantic and sexual success? Seriously?
Seriously? OMG gaiz, really? Cmon! Some real solid argument there. Socrates would be proud of the way you use logic /sarcasm>You don't think there's any part of the world you're possibly missing out on because you don't have close female friends?
Idk, maybe. I'm not opposed to the idea, but i'm also not going to pretend i like things i don't like to try and get there. That wouldn't be a real friendship anyway, and women don't seem to like the things i like, so idk what you suggest i do exactly, or again, why it's relevant.>Maybe the reason why you don't feel like you get along with women and there's a communication gap (I've never experienced this btw) is that your entire world-view tells you they're to blame for all of the sexual woes of men.
More like whenever i go out to the card shop or play games there aren't any women there, so i just make friends with the people who are there. Again, what do you suggest? I do things i don't like just to have female friends? That wouldn't even be a real friendship if it's based on false pretenses. >Dude, if I was a lady, I'd get the fuck away from you.
Very logical and not ad homenum or appeal to emotion at all. Socrates would be proud /sarcasm>Also, the west won't die, just because people ask nicely when they're unsure, of something. Why is everything always so catastrophic with people. First it's asking when you're unsure, then before you know it, the west collapses. Can you not see, this is a ridiculous slippery slope?
i'll run you down the chain of events:
Men ask nicely when they're unsure
This turns women off
this means there are less heterosexual relationships
Less heterosexual relationships mean less sexual intercourse
Less sexual intercourse leads to less babies being born
Less babies being born leads to population decline
Population decline eventually results in the abolishment of that society
Any questions?>Women are not going to kill you because you respect them. The analoy is awful.
Sure, but they won't engage with your romantically or sexually, either. They'll reject you and maybe be mean and/or put you in a cringe compilation. Better to stay at home.>Sexual violence exists.>Therefore, it's caused by women? Your solid evidence that sexual violence is caused by women, is that it exists? For real, dawg. For real? There is some reason, and because there is some reason for it, it has to be women?>For real right now?
Sexual violence exists.
Therefore, people are not able to get sex through easier, more moral means. If they could, sexual violence would make no sense and not exist, the same way people don't choke each other for lack of enough oxygen to go around.
Therefore, there is an incentive structure in place to reward sexual violence and penalize honesty and compassion.
Who causes this system? Well, we know that in order to enforce this system, you have to have some level of power to affect the system. If you don't have any power, you have no means of doing anything about it.
We can look upon society to see who has the decision-making power in heterosexual relationships. We can notice, through countless details, that men are attracted to women, and women are not so much attracted to men.
Therefore, women have the decision making power when it comes to heterosexual relationships. As they have many suitors, they have the choice to reward or punish different behaviors. Men have 3 choices: A) Act in the way they like, and not see romantic success B) Act in the ways women reward and see romantic success, or C) Stay home. None of these choices, even if chosen on mass, would have any change on the heterosexual romantic landscape. Women, on the other hand, being very desirable and having many suitors, can affect the landscape by rewarding or punishing certain behaviors. If you think i'm wrong, please, make an argument. If you think there's a way men could act en masse to change the playing field, i'm all ears!
As we have established that women have the power, and therefore the control, in the romantic landscape and the incentive structures that dictate it.
Therefore, the results of these structures and systems are their responsibility, and they are the only ones who have the power to change it.
If you have any questions i'd be happy to answer them.>>335>Oh, I'm not trying to assign blame. One could just as easily assign blame to the men who play fast and loose with consent. But our culture certainly seems to reward men who use ambiguous indications of consent like facial expressions instead of unambiguously verbally confirming consent. The whole #MeToo movement would be more successful if it could promote a consensus about how men should seek consent.
Exactly. Women have the opportunity to change things by setting clear rules of engagement with courtship, which they have not done.