No.979491[Last 50 Posts]
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a thread to vent about uncomfortable topics that people don't like discussed, and unpopular opinions or beliefs
i see too many people silencing themselves for the sake of maintaining a level of peace, but to hell with that
come rock the boat, tell people something that you know they won't like
NO direct insults, though, we still have rules
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Unpopular opinion threads, boards, and forums are an excuse to be mean or unreasonable and be heard without the prerequisite empathy that would help others relate with said opinion if the forum were contextually different and can create needless conflict, unnecessary hostility, and, after scaring away dissenters through conflict and hostility, can create dangerous echo-chambers.
...also, anger is a dangerous emotion, now is a good time to buy gold, and Diet Dr. Pepper is better than regular Dr. Pepper.
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after thinking about his a little bit, i have decided that i am wrong about this opinion
taken in isolation, it has some merit, but this is not -just- a thread about unpopular opinions
this is a thread about:
(3) that are discomforting.
Maybe if this thread has a certain framing to it, and context, it would fit into the criteria i set
But this isn't that sort of thread, as the elements of each do not mesh; this thread has a scope that is wider than what i had proposed in my unpopular opinion, that makes my opinion a non-sequitur as it relates to this thread
And the intention was for it to relate to the thread, despite my vagueness on that subject; i think, the intonation and glibness give it away, and we cannot pretend it wasn't intended as a glib commentary
It is socially important to vent about discomforting feelings, just as it is socially negligent to give a spotlight to abrasive perspectives without the requisite forum for empathetic behavior
i think i have done wrong, by projecting my frustrations with the rest of the world onto this poor good thread, and i apologize...
it is i who should think more before speaking, which is a problem of mine!
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this part is still true>>979527>>979519
Californian Mexican food is better than Tex-Mex.
Sorry Andrea... it is true. :c
To be honest most 'unpopular opinion threads' I've seen on social media are usually, 'opinions that are popular to be "unpopular opinions"' threads.>>979527
Wheat just saw an opportunity to talk about his anoos.
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...but actually... to be honest, i don't really have enough context to know.
Californian friends insist that this one place called "mission burrito" is so good it is beyond belief.
Of course, no self-respecting Texan will allow anyone to claim Californian Mexican holds a candle to the world renowned Tex Mex.
i am thinking even there are some Texans who will say Tex-Mex is better than actual Mexican food!
...as for me, i like all three. they are nice. i like Californian burritos best, but Tex Mex flavor profiles the most... but authentic Mexican is always my favorite. i especially love a good chocolate mole...
ohhhhh and tamales. i loooooove tamales. c:
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Such a good night to get officially sub-humanized.
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Once there was free leftover pizza at my workplace, but the only flavor was pineapple-and-ham. It was not as bad as I was expecting.
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I am both horrified and disgusted.
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Simple is best.
Also, keep burgers clean. Lettuce at absolute most. Otherwise, just leave it with a bit of cheese, maybe grilled onions, and if it's a very dry burger, something like ketchup.
Same deal for sandwitches. Romaine, meat, cheese, and salt. That's it. Nothing more. Stop overcomplicating things.
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...since this is the venting thread...
i joke about it, but i've had plenty of pineapple and ham pizza, and though it's never a first choice for me, i completely understand why people enjoy it
...when i bake my hams for Christmas dinner, i add pineapple rings on the outside, for the taste, and enzyme
ham and pineapple are really good together
...just not on a pizza. but it's understandable! it makes sense, i think>>979550
hm... i guess that makes sense, right? maybe?>>979541
...noonim, neapolitan margherita pizza, arguably the progenitor pizza, has basil on it :c
i happen to think basil is nice! i also really like mushrooms on my pizza :c
that said... a new york plain is still the slice for me c:
...also, does this include white slices, which are with the ricotta?
Or like, olives? What about the caesar salad slice? that's a classic!
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No. Quality is best. Serve simple, but good foods, and you don't need to complicate it.
If you use quality ingredients, skillful seasoning, and careful cooking, you won't need to throw in a hundred random bits and bobs to compensate.
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Basil doesn't really count. It's essentially a seasoning.
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by white slices. Like cheese? Extra cheese is mostly okay, though personally, and maybe this is because I've got issues with dairy, I prefer to leave only the standard amount. Still, cheese is relatively easy to fiddle with, while maintaining a decent balance.
Otherwise, no. No olives, mushrooms, or salad.
Salads are for prey, anyway.
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Most of my favorite meals are simple.
Eggs and pancakes, for instance.
Or baked potatoes.
I think people're too obsessed with throwing stuff together, that they forget about the simple things.
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i really like a touch of bleu cheese on my burger! i think tomato and onion is pretty good on a burger too, in addition to lettuce
The Spotted Pig on 314 West 11th Street does a great Noonim Burger; it's just a little roquefort cheese, and the highest quality beefhttps://assets3.thrillist.com/v1/image/1599277/size/tmg-gift_guide_default;jpeg_quality=20.jpg
There's also the emmy burger, which is arguably the best burger i have ever had...
Pretzel bun, dry-aged beef, charred onion, melted cheddar, and a slightly spicy burger sauce. https://houston.eater.com/2017/1/5/14178578/emily-emily-squared-houston-pop-up-cane-rosso
this is making me hungry! i have been trying to cut back on meat though :c no burgers for me.
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i do looooove fancy food... i cannot live without a good meal. i think simple food is so dull sometimes, and that a good meal is a necessary spice of life for me!
also, mushrooms are just such an exquisite ingredient, with so many taste profiles! There is just nothing that has the taste profile of a good porcini or chantrelle mushroom!
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>>979560>i have been trying to cut back on meat though :c no burgers for me.
I've been trying to cut back on carbs. So i eat my burg without a bun.
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i had this tofu and kelp salad with onigiri on Tuesday. It was 20 dollars! But that is New York for you :c
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Also Braze, if you see this, i hope you will see i am sorry for being snooty and insufferable. i do love you very much.
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i think the real echo chambers are born of positivity, not negativity, moons
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Ohhh, i think both can be true! Both can be true :c
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That said, i did also disagree with my first post later, as i am wrong
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East Asians have been scientifically proven to have bigger brains than White people, despite the fact that they generally have smaller bodies. We can disagree on what this entails, but regardless of what you think this is a fact, and there’s mountains of scientific data to prove it.
As far as I’m concerned people who deny this fact are no better than creationists. Science denies are science denies, and you don’t need a religion to be throughly indoctrinated.>>979494
Edgy bs is my kind of shit.>>979503
I can only partially agree with this statement.>>979506>>979522>>979525
Don’t be retarded, use lube.>>979511
Cleaning out only takes 5-10 minutes, it’s not that complicated.>>979515>>979529
This is a thread for unpopular opinions, no true facts. Please make a true facts thread instead of derailing this one. Thank you!>>979541
Eating any kind of pizza or junk food is pretty subhuman tier.>>979560
Why cut back when you could cut it out?>>979565>$20
That’s ridiculous. I usually just buy canned food when I’m out and eat the food directly from the can. Trust me canned food is essentially the same thing as fancy restaurant food, only they serve you it in a can and it usually only costs a couple of pence, or about £1.50-£3.00 depending on how many cans you want and wether and/or not you want to treat yourself with something really nice. (Could also get way more calories out of a can of baked beans that cost 35p or less, in comparison to the $20 you spent on your fancy salad.
Cans > middle class wanker tier food any day. Only real men eat their food from cans.>>979580>Nearly everything I think and all my interests are unpopular. I don't need to go out of my way to make people upset.
In comparison to what I believe I’m going to have to press a big X on that one.
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>>979587>In comparison to what I believe
Oh, well, we can both be upsetting together, perhaps, even if you're better at it.
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>>979587>Eating any kind of pizza or junk food is pretty subhuman tier.
Why do you say that?
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Entering a thread without the intention to do what OP asked.
Actually it's a bit of a paradox now.
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I'm trying to think of something to contribute, but it's difficult.
I guess for unpopular opinions that I personally believe;
I think plants and tiny living things such as bacteria have intelligence. And I think the problem arrises in that they are so vastly alien to us that we don't bother to think about it.
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Supposing that is the case, I still think the fact that East Asian and White brains are both structured differently as well as being of a different average size proves that there is a real discernible, and most importantly biological difference between the two in terms of how their brains function and how they themselves see the world.>>979606
Yeah, I’m pretty cool with that.>>979608
Because junk food is horrible for you, and there’s really no reason whatsoever to eat it. Also I was being a bit hyperbolic.
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im sorry for my dismissive post, i need
to stop posting drunk. i act like a fuckin asshole
anyway my hot take is people shouldn't have to sell plasma to affford vital medications
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I recognized the hyperbole, to be sure, but I was still curious.
>>979612>Supposing that is the case,
Well I mean, they have studied and proven it>there is a real discernible, and most importantly biological difference between the two in terms of how their brains function and how they themselves see the world
While I'm sure that's true, I can't imagine what purpose that knowledge would be good for except in like, medical research.
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The bad junk food habit I have is my addiction to energy drinks, and I’ve been trying to kick that. Haven’t drank one in two days, although I’m going out today, and there’s no doubt that I won’t be able to help myself when I see one in the shops, ha ha.>>979616>Well I mean, they have studied and proven it
Yes, but you said in some cases, and I’m assuming that’s quite rare. Also I’d be interested to know what animals this applies to. If this kind of thing has only been found in lizards, snakes, and crocodile for example, I think it can be safely dismissed, although if this does apply to mammals then it’s definitely something worth looking into, for the human context.>I can't imagine what purpose that knowledge would be good for except in like, medical research.
How about societal outcomes? While I don’t doubt that culture plays a role, I think the main reason that East Asians do better in school, generally have more money, and commit less crime than White people can be blamed on genetic factors, specifically hormonal and brain differences between the two groups.
hmm, I'm not sure that's actually unpopular. I haven't given any either.>>979613
au contraire, I wish I got paid when I give plasma.
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I don't hold healthfulness in a high enough regard to even examine whether I have any "bad habits". And truthfully, I'm not sure any amount of dietary changes would ultimately cure what ails me.
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>>979621>I'm not sure any amount of dietary changes would ultimately cure what ails me.
That may be true but a good diet may prevent it from getting worse, and I could sort out one or two smaller problems if you’re lucky. It’s something worth thinking about.
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>>979619>I haven't given any either.
Yeah, as I go through some of my unpopular, or at least weird beliefs, I realize a good portion are things that, if someone attacks them, I might get upset -- and it's kind of fight or flight. Maybe there's a kind of courage in listing them, but fighting doesn't please me, plus I'd get banned, and I suppose I could go off and make my own little pony board if I had to leave this site, but, well it'd be a ghost town, and I'd rather do other things with my time.
I might have some weird beliefs that are accidental -- just being misinformed, but otherwise weird beliefs take effort and I don't create them for no reason.
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Oh, it's cool. I suppose having your weird belief accepted by someone else can feel really good, too, so sometimes it's good to take a risk. It's like, you're not as alone as you thought you were. Although I also like to think I shouldn't need validation from others.
Maybe I'm going too deep with this. Probably. OK, dial back the intensity.
Umm...curiosity is good.
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Making fun of people for liking sports is played out.
If someone likes to lift weights, it's better to assume they're passionate about their health and appearance, than to consider them a meat head.
Most people lie without thinking about it.
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Allowing animal cruelty to spare your friend some discomfort is not the lesser of two evils.
But a lot of people have that gut reaction. That's why it's an unpopular opinion.
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>>979634>Opposing slavery and also thinking it's okay to own pets is maybe a contradiction?
That’s never made much sense to me. By that logic is opposing slavery but being okay with parents owing their children slavery?
I think the difference is moral agency, and our relationship to the creature. So owning a dog would be perfectly fine, assuming that you had a non exploitive relationship with the dog, and that you were treating it well. Plus many pets literally couldn’t survive in the wild, they are completely dependent on humans.
Although I’d say that it’s immoral to keep something like a fish or bird. Virtually no one could take care of either animal properly. I think keeping a fish in a tank or a bird in a cage (or any relativity confined space, compared to the literally hundreds of miles they often fly) is extremely explorative and cruel. And I’m sure that you could rule out a few other animals under that as well. But I see no reason why we should see keeping a pug as pet to be immoral, as love as said pug is loved and taken care of properly.>>979641>I'm opposed to factory farming of animals,
Are you aware that ~99% of animals in the agricultural industry live in factory farms? Do you really know where your meat comes from?https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.plantbasednews.org/.amp/culture/factory-farms-study
>>979650>By that logic is opposing slavery but being okay with parents owing their children slavery
Yeah, fair point.
But you can't euthanize a human kid or force them to work for you at your discretion, or breed them with other humans to produce phenotypes that you like.
Another thing is, a kid is temporarily taken care of until they're old enough to be independent, and if you do mistreat them, the government or the community step in to prevent this. In this sense, you don't fully own a kid, you're just their caretaker.
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>>979635>Opposing slavery and also thinking it's okay to own pets is maybe a contradiction?>Being opposed to the abuse of animals and consuming factory farmed-meat is definitely a contradiction. It's either one or the other.
To the first, I say that you don't really "own" pets, even if that's the terminology used. By all means pets get the better end of the deal there and all their "owners" get out of it is a friend. It's closer to having children then slavery.
To the second, clearly not all animals are equal, and that includes animals of the same species at times. That I enjoy the company of a pet pig does not demand that I oppose pig farms or eating pork anymore than serving at a local homeless shelter would demand that I support foreign aid. I can help my own child grow up healthy while using birth control or even abortions to stop more.
>>979654>To the first, I say that you don't really "own" pets, even if that's the terminology used. By all means pets get the better end of the deal there and all their "owners" get out of it is a friend. It's closer to having children then slavery.
I don't agree.
Pets may seem very happy, but happiness is not, I think, what should ultimately decide whether a situation is moral or not.
It is an ownership, in the sense that you buy the pet, and you can also sell the pet. If you want to kill the pet, you can do that, and if you'd like the pet to do something against it's will, you have the capacity to force them. There's a fundamental imbalance of power here, and that's the important part.
We would not condone owning another person either, even if they were treated well.
Why is it that animals are not equal?
A more apt analogy than supporting someone would be, just because I don't like hurting sandwich shop employees, doesn't mean I won't kick a Target employee from time to time. See there's a difference between giving aid to select groups, and having a double standard as to whom you consider it acceptable to abuse.
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>>979653>In this sense, you don't fully own a kid, you're just their caretaker.
I view pets in the same light. I think the fact that we have strong pet protection laws that are specifically designed to protect pets against their “owners” proves that they can’t be considered as slaves. Property doesn’t have laws specifically designed to defend itself. Pets have clear rights, and I think that’s the main thing that distinguishes them from property or being a slave. Plus most people treat pets as if they were children.>>979654
Name the trait absent in animals which if absent in humans would cause us to deem certain other humans without said trait as valueless, or at the very least not worth any moral consideration beyond simple taste pleasure and/or convenience.
E.G. “Humans are more intelligent than animals, therefore it is ok to kill animals because their lack of intelligence gives them significantly lesser moral value in compassion to humans.” In which case I’d ask, “if a human was say as stupid as a pig or cow would it be justifiable to kill said human for food?”
Context for this argument, https://philosophicalvegan.com/wiki/index.php/NameTheTrait
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i have been trying to cut back on meat, because of friends like Rose and Thorax, but i still have found i am unable to go without it.
i am quite a big guy, and my blood work showed deficiencies for vitamin d, folic acid, and iron after i stopped eating much meat.
The vitamin pills can help with this, but it is worrying as i do not usually have these issues.
But i do try to at least stick to sustainable and ethical meat whenever possible, and have been incorporating meatless days at least a few times a week c:
...still, there are times especially when i have awful cravings for red meat. i find seaweed helps a bit with that, and i do have quite a bit of seaweed in the diet, but i still end up feeling ravenous sometimes :c
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if i do eat meat, i will nowadays try to pray for the animal at least, and thank God and the animal for giving it's life so i can eat.
It is the least i can do, i think
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Healthcare doesn't have a solution.
>>979658>Property doesn’t have laws specifically designed to defend itself
I believe the american slave trade had laws regarding the ethical treatment of slaves, but I could be wrong.
But let's imagine a system of slavery in which it is illegal to rape your slaves or open wounds with blades or whips, just to give an example.
Is this any less of a slave system, simply because these laws are in place?
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Also, Rose, despite learning a lot about vegetarianism from you, i do want to say that a lot of my choices to eat less meat were in spite of what i felt were ... less than convincing arguments you had, that actually made me feel like i was giving merit to an unreasonable, self-righteous cult, more than a good movement for the betterment of animals.
i understand your motivations, and agree that most of the goals are ultimately noble, but worry about the logic and self-righteousness, and am not sure i want to be associated with that if i do become vegetarian or vegan one day
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...i believed that, until i went to Taiwan. Taiwan has, i think, the best healthcare system in the world, and it is only improving? It is quite interesting, i think, and shows that there is a long-term goal for a solved healthcare system that can be attainable!
I suppose everyone has their own foundation of values, and in laying out our beliefs, we can't help but reflect what we ourselves believe is most right. Questions of an ontological nature can be resolved, but when it comes to questions of what one should value, ultimately you can only be your own guide. Maybe a part of what you find unconvincing in my ideas, can be attributed to this underlying difference of values.
Which ideas do you find the most unreasonable?
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And what specific changes would other countries that struggle with healthcare have to implement to be more like Taiwan?
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>>979659>i am quite a big guy, and my blood work showed deficiencies for vitamin d, folic acid, and iron after i stopped eating much meat.
First of all did you get checked before you went vegetarian, as a comparison? Second beans, lentils, rice, and green vegetables are good source of iron, and you can get vitamin d from plant based alternative milks. Or you could just swallow two pills.>>979661>if i do eat meat, i will nowadays try to pray for the animal at least, and thank God and the animal for giving it's life so i can eat.
That’s beyond fucked up, to be honest. That’s like me saying “when I rape someone I at least thank God and the women I’m raping for giving her body to me. I think that’s the least I can do.”
Saying sorry doesn’t mean anything if you’re just going to continue to do it, and thanking the being that you’re paying to be tortured and killed doesn’t make things any better, it’s just creepy. The least you could do is go vegan, it takes half an hour to research what kind of nutrients you need and how you can get them on a vegan diet, and if that’s too hard for you, you could always just swallow a pill or to.
Being vegan is no harder than eating meat, after a week of getting a hang of things it becomes just as easy. There is absolutely no excuse for not going vegan, especially if you claim to care about the animals. Praying doesn’t do anything, it’s just a massive virtue signal, again the “”””least””” you could do is go vegan.
Read this please, >>979658>>979664
I use the argument I just linked above to Moony in this situation. If a human were as stupid as a dog and just as incapable of taking of itself I would have absolutely no moral problem with that person being taken care of by a family member or the state. Severally mentally retarded people are taken care of and basically treat like pets for their whole life, other than arbitrary differences like the fact that we don’t call them pets, or ourselves owners, I see no moral difference.>>979666>am not sure i want to be associated with that
You’re looking at this the wrong way. This isn’t about you and how you feel about being associated with a certain type of people, it’s about the animals. Sorry to put it bluntly but you being unsure about being associated with “self-righteous” people isn’t as important as the lives of other sentient beings, that are just as intelligent as family pets.
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I eat meat, but I don't see why "sentient creatures should not be slaughtered for our luxury" is such a strange concept
Animals feel and think as much as people, because people are themselves animals
Just accept that what you're doing is wrong and live with that
>>979673>I use the argument I just linked above to Moony in this situation. If a human were as stupid as a dog and just as incapable of taking of itself I would have absolutely no moral problem with that person being taken care of by a family member or the state. Severally mentally retarded people are taken care of and basically treat like pets for their whole life, other than arbitrary differences like the fact that we don’t call them pets, or ourselves owners, I see no moral difference.
Dogs do happen to be very capable of taking care of themselves, though. Even after we've bred them for centuries to suit our own purposes, they still retain their ability to survive independently from us.
So do cats, birds, fish and most other pets, for that matter.
Regardless, if they cannot, are we not still at fault for selectively breeding them to this point? I don't think that simply because something has been forced to relinquish it's ability to survive, it follows that it is now acceptable to keep it as property.
Like, I want to be convinced, I really do. I would love to think there's no problem with not owning pets, but this argument doesn't work for me.
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If you were a prohibitionist, against the sale of, say, caffeine, and you were in a society where this drug's use was normal, what is the best way to convince someone that the drug should be banned?
Try and talk to them like a friend? Encourage them when they abstain? Or yell at them, condemning their caffeine use, comparing it to heroin?
If a friend said, but I like caffeine, and you said, I understand, but it's bad for you, and you should cut back, that friend might go, you know, you're right.
Instead of then doubling down on the "it's basically heroin" argument.
But it's not a drug! It's a life, you say! But the idea is the same: that's what -you- believe. Whether it's true or not is not consequential to helping others understand your position.
Little steps from a position of empathy come across as helpful, and genuinely caring about not just the cause (something you believe in) and the listener (someone you want to help)
Comparing slavery to food is not an argument i'm willing to have because the fact that it is even brought up means the positions are entrenched.
In that case, what animal is served when you further entrench someone curious enough to engage you in a discussion about vegetarianism hard into their defenses?
At that point, it's self-righteousness
It can only serve to make you feel better about your decision, but ultimately hurts the animals you are trying to protect>But that's not an argument against my position
Stop thinking of me as your opponent. i know well enough that i cannot make an argument to break your faith. And that's fine. But if you want me to convert, we cannot come at the subject like adversaries
Those sign carrying zealots you see on street corners yelling about hell have never converted a single person.
I don't know what rose said to you, but there are literally no words I can say without meat eaters treating me like I'm a crazed fanatic, no matter how reasonable I am. It is the most infuriating thing I have ever dealt with. I take shit every day of my life, in relative silence, for being vegan, and if I even make a peep about it, someone is gonna jump down my throat.
Again I don't know how your conversation was with Rose, but from my perspective, it's the meat eaters that are the crazy cultists that will die on the alter of their food preference, not the other way around.
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If you're smart enough to deconstruct the reasons his argument doesn't sway people emotionally, you're also smart enough to see past your emotions and acknowledge his argument has merit
You know that animals are objectively sentient creatures with emotions and desires and love in their soul, but you choose to consume them
And we both know you're smart enough not to let knee-jerk emotional reactions get in the way of seeing that
I don't think of people as adversaries! Honestly I don't.
You'll also notice that this is actually a thread for venting unpopular opinions, which means, that yes, I am saying things to make me feel better, but that's kind of also the purpose here.
If someone wants to argue with me, simply because I exist, I think this says more about them than it does about me. If my beliefs on their own are controversial, I can never express them in a way that won't disturb people's peace of mind. I do try to be empathic in my speech, but honestly, my goal is not to convince anyone, I just want to exist in the open.
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>>979677>Regardless, if they cannot, are we not still at fault for selectively breeding them to this point? I don't think that simply because something has been forced to relinquish it's ability to survive, it follows that it is now acceptable to keep it as property.
I respect that opinion, but I have to disagree. For one most dogs and animals we currently keep as pets live far better lives than their counterparts in the wild.>>979679>Instead of then doubling down on the "it's basically heroin" argument.
It’s worse than heroin. Heroin doesn’t subject literally billions of innocent sentient creatures to torture and death every year. This isn’t about the substance, it’s about where it comes from. And again self-righteousness has nothing to do with this, the animals are the only thing that we should be concerned about in this argument.>>979681
100% this. There’s a big meme that vegans are out there constantly pestering meat eaters about their food at random restaurants, the opposite is actually true. I can’t eat a single meal with someone without them making fun of me, and in some cases literally rubbing their food in my face. And I’ve never done anything about it, because I know that if I say anything to them while they’re eating that I’m never hear the end of it. I’m just trying to fucking eat in peace.
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>>979677>Like, I want to be convinced, I really do
A part of the issue is, rose, that while you may believe this is true, it doesn't come across that way. In fact, the behavior gives an appearance like you look for opportunities to fight others as a way to confirm your beliefs to yourself
The opposite of looking to be convinced, as they say.
And even for someone like me who is trying to follow in your footsteps, it is hard to read that kind of sentence and not feel icky.
i got vegan tamales for lunch to try to do good by animals, but have to do that in spite of the frustration and desire to stop after seeing your arguments in this thread.>>979682
i never said his argument doesn't have merit! The opposite is true, i have been, as i said, trying to eat less meat for that very reason.
You will note i specifically did not bring up the argument, because i don't want to be scared away from my agreement with Rose: Rose arguing with me about something i already tenuously believe in will make me want to entrench: that's human nature.
My response was the exact opposite of a knee-jerk reaction.
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But you treat them like adversaries! Actions are always louder than thoughts.
But then i don't understand. What is veganism to you? An identity, or something for animals? If it's a way to feel good about yourself, and in doing that, you scare away potential new vegans, the animals are the ones who suffer.>>979685
If the animals are what you care about, then use behaviors, words, and tactics that aren't so self-promoting.
The single greatest reason why veganism struggles with mainstream acceptance is, ironically, the complete and utter lack of empathy
...i love your Christ, but not your Christians, so to speak.
...this is my dog. She was sick ever since she was small. i took her to the vet all the time. Held her when she would throw up. She died very young. But at least she got to live and be loved.
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...maybe one day i will be a vegan too, and start a movement that is centered around empathy for humans and animals alike.
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Accusing people of a lack of empathy is pretty rude, in this situation
It's not as though they don't love and cherish other humans, because they definitely do
But how much do you expect someone to sacrifice to a murderer?
Surely if someone were to kill another human, this would be awful, but not everyone would agree it is awful
The people who do not agree it is awful are often shunned
But with vegans, it seems the opposite to me
Vegans express extreme empathy for both humans and animals, but when they speak up about the wrongdoings of murdering another creature, they are shunned and harassed
>>979685>I respect that opinion, but I have to disagree. For one most dogs and animals we currently keep as pets live far better lives than their counterparts in the wild.
That's fair, they might. I haven't studied all of the myriad species we keep as pets to see if they're happier in the wild.>>979686
You're probably right. I probably do come across as extremely self-righteous.
And I'm sorry that makes you feel icky. Of course the last thing I want to do is portray veganism as being a cult.
I'm not making any promises, but you're probably better at the whole civility thing than I am, so if I was going to change the way I behave online, what would be some suggestions for how to do this, do you think?>>979692>An identity, or something for animals? If it's a way to feel good about yourself, and in doing that, you scare away potential new vegans, the animals are the ones who suffer.
It's both. It's definitely both. I identify as a person that doesn't want to harm animals, because I don't want to harm animals.>>979693
Moons, you're killing me.
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People are very clever these days.
I started this vegan thing thinking I'd be the chill vegan that got along with everyone. That respecting them, they'd respect me. But it's absurd how far out of the way people go to antagonize me. And now I'm like, oh, this is why vegans become militant! I get it now!
Now, I seriously want to be that radical, militant vegan after literally only a few months of this. But, I keep my cool, because in the end, I don't want to contribute to this negative image when I think veganism is picking up speed a little bit. But trust me, I'd love to dish out as much as I am getting.
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I suffer from extreme social anxiety IRL. I’ve told absolutely no one outside of my family that I’m vegan because I don’t want to constantly get pestered about it, the shit I get and have gotten from my family is more than enough. I’m not interested in virtue signalling, if I was I wouldn’t hold such extremely unpopular beliefs in other aspects of my life, I rarely even bring veganism up online unless it’s relevant to the conversation, but I will argue with people. In absolutely no way is this self-promoting. You’re the one that eats a certain way because you’re afraid of social backlash, not me, I don’t like being judged either, but I consider the lives of animals to be more important than my relativity petty anxiety’s.>The single greatest reason why veganism struggles with mainstream acceptance is, ironically, the complete and utter lack of empathy
We’re empathetic for the most part, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to pat you on the back because you do vegetarian weekends. We’re not your Uncle Tom. I try my best to be civil while debating meat eaters, but I’m not going to congratulate. All of my points so far have been reasonable and logically consistent, and yet you’ve addressed none of them.
Besides you can be vegan without necessarily joining “the cult.”>>979695
It’s nice to see someone that’s brutally honest about this situation. Even if you do eat meat I can respect the fact that you don’t try to bullshit your way out of the situation, you acknowledge that what you do is wrong and you have excuse for it.>>979696
As I said before, it depends on the animal.
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Is that unpopular? I hope not, because cleverness has caused me much trouble
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I feel the exact same way. I try to go into arguments with a completely rational mind, but it’s hard to not get emotional over such a controversial topic, especially when in some cases people start bragging about all the animals they’ve killed while out hunting in the same thread. Most people just don’t care, and out of those that claim to “care” most of them are extremely selfish, and will never actually go vegan, they just like the little ego boost the idea of going vegan gives them.
I always end up going away from these big arguments extremely depressed.
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The fact that I eat meat is a personal failing, on my part
Will I stop? Probably not
Why? Because I value my comfort more than the lives of the creatures in question
It's awful, but it's also largely unconscious
I rarely eat beef, and I only eat meat when it presents itself because I find the taste personally satisfying, it quells my anxieties in a similar way as a drug
It's just a drug that directly costs lives, and that is horrible
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Mh, I was trying to think of something to help, but I can't
But you converted my sister to veganism in a few hours yesterday, so you know this isn't all for nothing
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Maybe so, but isn't that what this thread is for? The venting?
But when you ask me how i expect someone to sacrifice to a murderer, you prove the point, yes?
How many more animal murderers could we stop if we listened and understood instead of condemning them as murderers?
Who benefits from that kind of us or them stance? Not the people, not the animals: only the person making that argument benefits.
You cannot at once tell me that vegans express extreme empathy, and then tell me that non-vegans are murderers. This is exactly what i mean - lack of humility, lack of empathy, and the animals are the ones that suffer for it.>>979696
...i kill you because i love you. You and Thorax have helped me eat much more veggie lifestyle. i am getting there, because of your teachings.
we can figure it out together>>979698>>979701
that i can understand, as i know people can be harsh towards vegans
If it helps, veganism is very mainstream out here in New York, but vegans and vegetarians do not get along
And got me back on track.
But I was pretty ready to go back anyway.
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Calling someone what you believe they are is not expressing a lack of empathy
I know that being called a murderer hurts, but it is not meant to feel pleasant
Some things do not feel good, and we are not entitled to them feeling good
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It's interesting how when you make an argument it's coming from a place of love, but when I make an argument it must be to make me feel better.
I wish I had a psychology degree, maybe it could help me figure out what
oh yeah, I do.
It's called the fundamental attribution error.
>>979657>There's a fundamental imbalance of power here, and that's the important part.
Well, yeah, one is a dog. Man and dog will likely never be truly equal, not unless we get into genetic engineering and redefine "dog". I don't think the existence of a power imbalance makes something immoral, what's important is how you deal with the imbalance. Which doesn't mean I could tell you exactly what is moral, but I think I can have a couple dogs in the house.>Why is it that animals are not equal?
In an absolute sense? Genetics, yeah? A sea cucumber and a fox aren't equal.>>979658>Name the trait absent in animals which if absent in humans would cause us to deem certain other humans without said trait as valueless, or at the very least not worth any moral consideration beyond simple taste pleasure and/or convenience.
We -are- animals, there is no different trait. It is moral, if not tasty or safe, to eat other humans.
>>979711>In an absolute sense? Genetics, yeah? A sea cucumber and a fox aren't equal.
Okay, so the pig in your living room is not okay to eat because it has living room genetics? Or what was your point with bringing this up?>I don't think the existence of a power imbalance makes something immoral, what's important is how you deal with the imbalance. Which doesn't mean I could tell you exactly what is moral, but I think I can have a couple dogs in the house.
That sounds pretty reasonable.
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>>979704>I find the taste personally satisfying, it quells my anxieties in a similar way as a drug
I’ve never understood this. Meat eaters seem to think that meat is the tastiest thing out there. When I used to eat meat I always thought that tasted like nothing, and if anything it had an extremely unpleasant texture. Spices, seasoning, and sauces (or specific cooking methods) are the only thing that gives it any flavour, but for the most part you can just apply that to vegan foods.
But regardless, I don’t see how something could taste so good that it would factor into your moral principles. I used to be addicted to cheese, I’d say that by far it was my favourite food, but now I can’t eat it, which sucks, but in my mind I don’t have a choice in the matter, I have to do what I believe is right.>>979705
Yeah, arguing about this can often get really tiring, but people like her are what make it worth it.
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People have different tastes, which feels strange to explain
You know what you taste is not what someone else does?
Meat gives me a pleasant, immediate feedback that tells me I've done a good thing on an unconscious chemical level, and given our mental issues, I not only doubt that I have the mental fortitude to resist eating meat- I do not want to stop
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i thought we were understanding one another... >>979709
Empathy is understanding where people are coming from. Not immediately framing someone who eats meat as a murderer, or accusing them of murder, can help them understand veganism better and come to the light side.
Empathy saves lives. At the end of the day, what's the goal? When you all someone a blank, who doesn't believe what they are doing is blank, all you have done is make anger at you, and your cause, and shutdown a potential convert
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>>979715>given our mental issues,
Your sister seems capable of it.
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She has an alternative now: You
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>>979718>i thought we were understanding one another...
Well you're certainly trying your best.
Let's just drop it, I have a dinner date coming up soon.
>>979695>Vegans express extreme empathy for both humans and animals,
I dunno, at least some vegans seem not to have much empathy for meat-eaters.>>979698>But it's absurd how far out of the way people go to antagonize me.
If you present veganism as a moral issue, I can see people responding quite negatively because (1) you are implicitly condemning their dietary choices as immoral and (2) they are worried that you and people like you might band together and eventually use state force to restrict their ability to eat meat, cheese, and eggs.
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If someone used a state force to stop me from eating meat, I would probably lie down and think "I had this coming, I don't know what I expected"
okay I am coming out from lurking to say ...> (2) they are worried that you and people like you might band together and eventually use state force to restrict their ability to eat meat, cheese, and eggs.
Where in the world does this assumption even come from?
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...i will go now. i am a Christian amongst Atheists, so to speak.
The worst part is, i agree with the premises, and have been trying really hard to improve by cutting out meat from my diet more and more.
But my friends, despite loving all of you dearly, this is giving me Sunday School flashbacks. Better a good Samaritan than a Pharisee. >>979721
...i truly do not understand what just happened, except that i am upset.
i didn't mean to say all your words were unempathetic, only your engagement of non-vegans.
And my latest statement was trying to meet us halfway, i still accept the premise that veganism is a good thing.
...but this thread has completely worn away it's welcome for me, and i am genuinely upset.
i feel like i just spent my morning with the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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>>979653>But you can't euthanize a human
I think America treats its dying pets better than its dying people. Pets are out out of their misery relatively quickly. Humans are kept suffering, barely even alive, on life support for months or even years and at great cost.
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Personally speaking I'd much rather be suffering and barely alive than euthanized
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I don't disagree that my treatment of non-vegans is sometimes un-empathethic. Sometimes you have to put up your walls, when someone comes at you, as people are known to do when you're vegan in public.
What I take issue with is you highlighting this while you yourself make arguments at me, rooted in what you percieve as my personal failings.
You're always welcome to me, but not welcome to do anything to me.
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It is the premeditated killing of another creature, in all fairness
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All you’ve done is make the same emotional appeal over and over again, and when someone actually gives you a rational argument you completely ignore it. Why should we be empathetic towards you if you aren’t even willing to answer our very simple questions, not to mention the fact that you value your own feeling over the lives of other sentient creatures?
Who here sounds less empathetic to you, you who continuously ignores people and their valid points, or the people asking you in a fairly civil manner to not contribute to the murder and torture of animals?>>979720
It’s touching to know that I have such an influence over her.>>979728>i feel like i just spent my morning with the Jehovah's Witnesses.
This is beyond insulting. Several people in this thread gave you good rational arguments and sound advice, and you just brush them off or completely ignored them.
What happened here is that you virtue signalled about occasionally not contributing to the torture and death or animals, and then few vegans (and non-vegans to some extent) called you out for your hypocrisy, to which you backed away and pleaded for empathy. You’re just projecting how you feel into us.
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My wife so much for the tolerant left me>>979738
I hope someday I find a reason to improve, too
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i can understand that. What arguments did i make at you, rooted in what you perceived i perceived as your personal failings? i do not think that was my intention, and this is an opportunity to learn and not be this way for me in the future>>979738
Because i'm not arguing against your rational arguments: i agree with them. i just think you have a PR problem, that has empathetic roots.>>979738
Good, rational arguments... For what? You tell me, what am i arguing, and what are you arguing? Are we even on the same page?
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I think you may just end up getting hurt by doing this?
I fully understand, you think the way vegans approach the topic is an issue, not the arguments themselves, but you already said you're in pain from this thread
Maybe stepping away for health reasons is okay?
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If someone provides me with an unlimited supply of hash browns and hushpuppies, I will go vegan
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>>979742>Because i'm not arguing against your rational arguments: i agree with them.
Then why aren’t you vegan?>You tell me, what am i arguing, and what are you arguing?
I’m arguing that you should go vegan, you’re deflecting and ignoring my arguments. I’m not necessarily just arguing that veganism is good, I’m making a personal plea to you.>>979744
What does that consist of? As far as I’ve seen meat eaters are only ever happy when you stroke their ego, anything less than further entrenching the idea that “not eating meat occasionally, and praying is the least I could do” is viewed with open hostility, or is simply doged with pleas for empathy and statements like “I don’t hate you for eating plants, so what’s you’re problem with me eating meat.”
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Mh, I think Moony is trying to go vegan, Mint
Literally all things are a moral issue. I consider taking a shower a moral issue. Driving well so that traffic flows properly is a moral issue. Anyone who doesn't consider what you eat a moral issue isn't thinking very hard.
My philosophy isn't a popular one. Because it puts everyone in a position where they are complicit in immoral activity. I consider the lengthy showers I take to be immoral. But that doesn't make me a bad person. I consider the meat you presumably eat to make you immoral, but that doesn't make you bad. It's about how much we take and how much we give back. I make a conscious effort to minimize my impact and maximize what I give back. I try to strike that balance. If you feel you do the same, then I consider you a good person regardless of whether you eat meat. But, you have to actually, willingly acknowledge that eating meat is taking; taking from animals, taking from the environment, taking from future generations since they will have to live with the harm of our actions.
And that taking, you can decide how you weigh it, I would certainly weigh it higher than you. But if you deny that taking is happening, then I'd consider you intellectually dishonest.
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He isn’t, he only doesn’t eat meat sometimes. He doesn’t even consider dairy. Considering that he bought a $20 salad yesterday he must be extremely privileged, and he’s talked about going semi vegetarian for at least a few months now, so if he was genuinely trying to become vegan he would have done so by now.
His dishonesty is the thing that really gets under my skin. I’d rather he just said that he doesn’t care, or that he’s extremely lazy, that would at least be honest.
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Here is an accounting of my arguments:
Calling meat-eaters “murderers” is unempathetic, and is going to turn more potential vegans away, and is therefore the wrong way to be if the goal is to help animals
But they -are- murderers, and that’s what we believe, and here are the reasons why
Which is fair, but if the end goal is to help animals, you will scare people away by calling them murderers. Ultimately, the animals suffer when we cannot empathize enough to convert people to veganism.
Meat-eaters are murderers though, and I’m not just going to not call out murder as murder
Then isn’t that selfish? If it doesn’t help the animals, which is the goal, then what purpose does it serve except to alienate potential vegans and make you feel good? >>979747
i'm getting there! i am trying to cut back on meat, and figure out what i need pills for to make up the difference, as i have already have problems with a few "red meat" nutrients
i am the primary cook at home, and i cannot impose my beliefs in my family, or my clients, or my friends. i try my best, and am getting there. i already have been trickling in more and more veggie only days, and reducing the meat i do eat to only ethical, and thereby more expensive, meat :c
It's not that i don't like veganism, i love the idea and want to help the animals. i struggle with feeling like i am viewed like a monster for not being there yet, and wonder. If others wouldn't even bother trying if they are made to feel that way too
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>>979753^But they -are- murderers, and that’s what we believe
I-I’m a murderer?
Sh-Should I cry, Moony?
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Wow, mint. Again, the empathy issue. It's not really that simple to make a big shift in your dietary habits. i said earlier that i had blood work comeback showing nutritional deficiencies and that's something that needs work!
If it's either do it 100% or don't bother, then are your beliefs really for the animals?
...extremely privileged, he says. i mean, i guess so. i live a good life, and i did have advantages growing up.
it wasn't perfect, and i felt underprivileged for most of my life even, though i have seen enough of the world now to know that is lot the case. i can afford a 20 dollar salad though because the average pay in New York is much higher, and i work an obscene amount per day.
you can call me dishonest, if you must, but i do feel that is proving my point somewhat about the empathy issue
i did not enjoy being dehumanized, called dishonest, or being called privileged, especially by one who doesn't know me well at all.
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i'll cry first, and you can join me
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When you eat plants, you kill plants anyways.
Whatever you do, you kill stuff.
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I'm sure they've never heard that argument before
You familiar with the idea that it's better to right some wrongs than not right any at all?
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But plants aren’t sentient unlike animals.
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I doubt that... I really do
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Plants are not conscious.
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Are clams plants?
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My turn now, yes?
There certainly are a lot of undercurrents of emotions being invested in a sense of enlightenment. There's no insult worse than calling somebody mistaken~
Not just here either! The biggest export of the internet after dumb maymays is "look at this vlog and see how clever you are!" I can barely turn on my computer without some idiot giving life advice dosing out "redpill" and "woke" knowledge or giving some other nugget of enlightened trite wisdom. The name changes depending on whatever flavor of neo-reactionary convinced them that they're just the cleverest little thing since breakfast bagels but it's all the same.
It is absolutely idiotic that this is a brave stance now, but I feel secure in my universal conviction that "I don't care."
Of course I'm the most cleverest because I'm self aware, so that means I win whatever stupid little contest this is.
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I’m pretty sure...
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>>979753>Meat-eaters are murderers though, and I’m not just going to not call out murder as murder>we cannot empathize enough to convert people to veganism.
You seem to be disassociating yourself from meat eaters, and falsely associating yourself with vegans. Let me fix that for you.>I am a murder though, and I’m not just going to not call out murder as murder
Maybe instead of calling out other people for “murder” you should stop doing so yourself. Once you’ve stopped “murdering” you can call out others, but until then you are a “murderous” hypocrite.
These are essentially your words, I just aligned you with the right group. If you don’t like this you could always leave that group, easily.>If it doesn’t help the animals, which is the goal, then what purpose does it serve except to alienate potential vegans and make you feel good?
I’m not talking about optics, I don’t think there is any “right” way to go about this. It’s better to use several approaches from different kinds of people. All I’m saying is that you should go vegan, again, I’m not arguing about optics. I’m just saying that you’re an adult who shouldn’t need me to spoon feed this to him.>figure out what i need pills for to make up the difference,
It takes half an hour to research this stuff on the internet. Besides you aren’t even trying to go vegan, you’re just talking about vegetarianism, the idea that you’d need to pills to go vegetarian is laughable, and you’d know that if you actually did any research. Hell you don’t even need pills, just look up “vegan (or vegetarian in your case.) foods with B12, Iron, etc.”>i am the primary cook at home, and i cannot impose my beliefs in my family, or my clients, or my friends.
Killing and torturing animals isn’t as bad as causing a minor inconvenience?>reducing the meat i do eat to only ethical, and thereby more expensive, meat :c
There is no such thing as “ethical meat,” you can not “ethically” torture, exploit, and kill an innocent sentient being?
Also what’s with the sad face? You’re a lawyer who buys $20 salads, don’t act as if you can’t afford it. When I go outside I have to choose between having lunch and dinner, or taking public transportation, meaning that I often have to spend over an hour waking home because I spent all my money on food, and I assure you that’s not because I have a habit of eating out at expensive restaurants, and ordering 20$ salads. I’m about as poor as you can be while living in a first world country, but I manage it easily.>i am viewed like a monster for now being there yet, and wonder.if others wouldn't even bother trying if they are made to feel that way too
You don’t try. Being a middle class American who buys “ethically” sourced meat and goes vegetarian once or twice a week. Again, I sometimes have to skip meals when I’m out or face walking home for a good hour in what are often very bad weather conditions, I make it work. If I can be vegan there’s absolutely no reason that you can’t.>>979757>i said earlier that i had blood work comeback showing nutritional deficiencies and that's something that needs work!
Supplements, fortified food, there are plenty of options.>If it's either do it 100% or don't bother, then are your beliefs really for the animals?
We are talking about the torture and murder of animals. How could I not be for 100% abolition?>i felt underprivileged for most of my life
Tell me that the next time you have to skip a meal or walk home in the rain. Again, I make it work.>i did not enjoy being dehumanized, called dishonest, or being called privileged, especially by one who doesn't know me well at all.
None of this is a personal attack, and I’m sorry if it feels as such. I’m just trying to get you to see how dier the situation is. This isn’t just something you can just “try” at, it’s possible the most serious moral dilemma of our time. I don’t see much distinction between this and slavery in the America south, in fact in many way this industry is more brutal. Again, I’m not attacking you, I’m just trying to get you to take this more seriously, and if that involves some shaming, I’m sorry.>>979759
You kill more plants by eating animals because farmed animals eat significantly more plants throughout their lifetime than the vast majority of people do in a year. By eating meat you’re killing hundreds of animals a year, which creates a demand for hundreds more plant eating animals. Therefore meat eaters kill more plants by proxy than vegans do. Also plants aren’t sentient.
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i have heard this philosophy before, and i cannot remember what it was called, but it is like "every single thing we do is a sin, and there are varying degrees of sin"
I'm not sure a single person in this argument was concerned with being clever, hon
On the internet at large though, yes, it's bothersome, but isn't that what humans do?
We're moral and social creatures and it's just how we operate
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I'm not sure god belongs in this argument
There are many interpretations of your god and no two humans on the planet see him the same way
The statistical likelihood that you in particular have the right view of god is very minimal
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You called me dishonest, and privileged. i should hate to see a personal attack then, if that wasn't one.
Again, empathy. i've evidently got some way to go, but respectfully, i don't want to live eating only beans out of a can, as you've described your own vegan lifestyle
Maybe you're right, and it's been wrong of me to associate with vegans. i do so out of admiration. If only all life changes were as easy as you make them seem, mint.
If that were true, i'd skip town for Hawaii again and be a proper vegan too.
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Just do what you feel is best by you
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Whether you're a vegan is less important to me than whether you feel safe and loved
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I don’t believe in your God, and further more if he were real I’d see him as a devil. Any being that breeds sentient, emotional, and loving creatures into the world with the sole intention of them being exploited, tortured, and killed is beyond evil. You’re God is a disgusting deity of pride, greed, and merciless brutality, ironically all things he argues against.>Humane non-factory farming isn't torture, and that's where Moony gets his expensive meat from.
Do you have any idea how these animals are treated? Are you aware that for example, cows need to be raped to produce milk, because like any other animal they only produce milk when pregnant, and once they’ve given birth their baby is taken away from them almost immediately, either to go through the same process as it’s mother, or killed for the veal industry? Did you know that cows have been known to morn and scream for weeks at the lose of their babies? That’s only one thing that goes on in your “ethical farms.”>>979782>You called me dishonest, and privileged. i should hate to see a personal attack then, if that wasn't one.
Those are simple facts, sorry but from my perspective they are. I’m not going to go out of my way to attack you, but if I think you’re being dishonest I’ll call you out. I simply don’t believe that you take this as seriously as you claim. I want you to prove me wrong, that’s my point. I’m not necessarily saying that you don’t care at all, I just don’t think you care as much as you think you do.
Again nothing against you, it’s just that this is often the only way to get through to people. I’m sorry that you feel bad about it, but you should, that proves that you are a genuinely caring person. I’m just trying to get you to see how urgent this is.>i don't want to live eating only beans out of a can, as you've described your own vegan lifestyle
You can afford to eat really good food, that isn’t a problem for you. Also I’ll have you know that beans are both extremely tasty, and most importantly healthy.>If only all life changes were as easy as you make them seem, mint.
All you have to do is stop eating meat and dairy, it’s honestly not that hard. I don’t see what you find so difficult about that.
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I want to make it clear that I’m not attacking Moony, and I certainly don’t want to make him feel unsafe or unloved. I feel like all my points are valid, but they’re not intended to make him personally feel unsafe or unloved, I’m only arguing with him to the extent that I am because I do care about him. I’m not going to attack him, but I feel that having your beliefs and perception of yourself challenged can do you a lot of good. I’m not attacking Moony the person, just his stance on veganism.
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Are hashbrowns and hushpuppies an ethical source of food?
I don't think you have bad intentions
If I did, I'd be upset
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Both ethical and delicious. (Although we call them slushpuppies. I’ve never heard anyone say “hushpuppies” before.)
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I wasn’t just talking to you, I was making a general statement because I can see how my arguments could come off as extremely hostile. But regardless, thank you!>>979795
Well then, what’s a hushpuppy?
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Yeah these are vegan, although it seems like non-vegan things are often put into them.
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What non-vegan things? I really just want to eat weird batter-bread without hurting animals
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Apparently milk is often used when making these, but it isn’t a necessary ingredient.
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*inarticulate bannable language sputtering
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Depends on the milk.
No. I don't have time to explain it in detail, but doing something wrong doesn't make you bad. Badness is the output of the sum of your good and bad, it is not you doing one single bad thing ever. >>979755
That's fine. I'm okay with how you decide to weigh it. As long as you've considered the cost and done your own math.>>979777
I never said everything you do is a sin, mind you. Just that every actions has moral consequences and we shouldn't be ignorant to them.
That's a shame, I'd prefer I not have to worry about that
Not that I will anyway, but it's a potential future problem
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You’d be surprised at the crazy kind of shit they try to put milk and eggs in. There are even quite a few breads and pastas that have milk and/or eggs in them.
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I think the main main thing was you saying that the way I talk about veganism is just selfish, you know. Nothing else you said I really disagree with, but this idea that ultimately my expression in this thread is just for my own sake, I don't like that. And also, I guess, if your social credit is more important to you than the ethics of your consumption, then you're probably right to be bothered by what I have to say, because I think it points to a contradiction in your moral system, and those should be uncomfortable to us, so that we know when we're not being congruent. If you remain open, that discomfort will ultimately lead you to a more thought out worldview. It's also ultimately your choice, if you want to engage in the discussion or in the practice of eating meat, whether you want to face that discomfort or not. I think you shouldn't offload the consequences of this on me, just because I'm not the kind of zen-like perfect teacher that can guide you through the discussion while sparing your feelings completely, that you'd like.
Even though, it's true, I do put up walls to protect myself, and that is a selfish motivation, I think it's very negative framing to only focus on this, and suggest that all I'm doing ultimately is hurting the thing I advocate for.
I don't get any sort of personal satisfaction out of having these arguments, I don't even want to have them. I would have been delighted, if no one challenged my views on this and if I could just talk about what I believe sometimes without getting dragged into this quagmire of interminable debate.
But ultimately I also want a peaceful environment, so I'll keep it to a minimum in threads that aren't specifically dedicated to this type of discussion. This way, people will hopefully know what they're entering into.
Oh that's what you meant. Sorry, there's hours of distraction and pain between each of my posts.
The pet pig is part of my family and the farm pig is not. Again, I use the example with humans. If I have a five year old child, it's a person that's part of family, just like a dog. But that doesn't mean it's my responsibility to save every child, or even my responsibility to have more children.
I totally get that! I also get tangled up in the lines of argumentation sometimes.>If I have a five year old child, it's a person that's part of family, just like a dog. But that doesn't mean it's my responsibility to save every child, or even my responsibility to have more children.
but by the same token, you would not eat the flesh of a strangers child either, or support the exploitation and slaughter of many children with your purchasing habits, right?
I mean, there's a difference between having a responsibility to save, and having a responsibility to not contribute to the abuse of these children. I think in order to really have a discussion about the ethics of meat consumption, the analogy should reflect the actual relationships.
i'm not asking you to do anything for me...
i get there's a balancing act between staying true to what you believe and also helping others to get to where you are, and that there's not much room for compromise in a philosophy that ultimately believes that most people are complicit in murder.
i'm not saying you need to do anything. But i do think that if the ultimate concern is the well-being of animals, there needs to not be an instant compulsion to go directly to the defensive.
and in that, i speak from experience, being a person who very easy gets put on the defensive due to lack of self-confidence, and who knows that's not the right way to be, in order to convince others
Tbh, I don't really consider it my job to convince others.
I think most people are capable of reasoning and deciding for themselves. Of course, people do not want to perpetuate cruelty or pain in this world, this is obvious. They should not need my help to figure out what the right thing for them is.
But yeah, sure, I can try to be a bit nicer! I'll give it a go, but I'm not sure how good I'll be at it. This is something I've always struggled with, since I was a kid, and I guess I'm getting slowly better maybe, but I'm not the best at it.
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>>979822>I think the main main thing was you saying that the way I talk about veganism is just selfish,
Yeah, that’s what really set me off to.>>979829
Most don’t, but quite a few brands do. 90% of the time you’re going to be fine, but it’s still common enough for me to check the packets.
Edit; didn’t mean to spoiler that.
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To be fair, the 5-way gangbang for daring to call you out didn't eliminate the "self righteous culty" vibes. It just was kinda... browbeating him into submission.
Kinky! But not endearing.
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>>979830>you would not eat the flesh of a strangers child either, or support the exploitation and slaughter of many children with your purchasing habits, right?
I don't think it's practical to refrain from that nowadays, with so much stuff made in China with child slave labor.
If not exploiting children is becoming nearly impossible under capitalism, perhaps a criticism of the system is doubly warrented?
Just an idea.
I think the fact that this is inescapable, does not mean we should now allow anything morally, simply because sweat shop labor is rather common. I mean, we could decide that anything goes now, like a person on a binge after accidentally breaking their diet, but perhaps there is more merit to trying not to exploit children.
Literally every vegan conference or event ever.
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I think someone just went completely blind going on that diet.>>979749> I consider taking a shower a moral issue.
This is actually perfect for the thread: I don't think showering is all that important. I haven't showered in what...a year? Longer? Too much effort, waste of water, probably used questionable shampoos in the process. Everyone should give up showering.>>979830>but by the same token, you would not eat the flesh of a strangers child either, or support the exploitation and slaughter of many children with your purchasing habits, right?
Eh...wrong. Maybe some details could come up that might change my mind, but in a vacuum like that, yeah I might eat the flesh of a stranger's child. I am, at least, not fundamentally opposed to it. And I definitely wouldn't change my purchasing habits to avoid companies that involves "the exploitation and slaughter of many children", even if I might sometimes push to make their conditions more humane.
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I just assume everything happens on its own!
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You say you don't care, but you seem awfully invested
Like Rose said, ain't my job to convince anyone of anything, Moony's an adult and can make his own choices
Most people get dirty, and smelly, and start looking a little unwell after a period of time
Enough dirt collecting in certain spots could probably make you sick or cause strange bacteria or fungi to grow? I'm not sure
Do you never even rub yourself down with a washcloth?
i do not mean to suggest it is your job, either.
it is just, in discussions of veganism, it is often made clear that the goal of the veganism is for the good of the animals. If the goal is minimizing animal suffering, then it is arguably as important for us to be good representatives of that movement than it is to be ourselves animal abstinent.
If you, by being an empathetic representative of the vegan movement, inspire two people to veganism, you will have arguably done more for the root cause, minimizing animal suffering, then an entire life of veganism on your own terms.
Likewise, if one's abrasive behavior as a vegan scares away two potential other vegans, then that vegan has done net harm and has increased animal suffering.
It comes into the philosophy i live by, even outside of this whole debate: good people seek to minimize the suffering of others, and doing that requires unselfish behavior.
The question is, why do we choose to be vegan? For ourselves to feel okay with our behavior? For the animals?
>>979868>it is just, in discussions of veganism, it is often made clear that the goal of the veganism is for the good of the animals. If the goal is minimizing animal suffering, then it is arguably as important for us to be good representatives of that movement than it is to be ourselves animal abstinent.
I agree with this
I suppose I'm just a bit cynical that anyone on the internet really is open to change. I mean, they've been here long enough, they've heard all the arguments, they know what it's all about. Me being like 'pretty please won't you save the butterflies with me' isn't really gonna be the big decider maybe?
I mean, if it's a friend who i know respects me, and I respect them, and who I have good conversations with, I'll totally take a different attitude than if it's a person coming at me with an but actually attitude.
But I guess I just don't have that inclination all the time.
I do choose veganism for the animals, and it would be nice to convince someone once in a while as did end up happening with Thorax, but I think this is just something that happens between friends, not in unpopular opinion threads? I mean it could, idk.
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This is a thread about selfish feelings and negativity
I was venting my usually unsaid feelings, and I think the others were too? That's what this was for
I don't want to convince you eating meat is wrong, I still eat meat myself, but do want to express loudly that I feel it's wrong, because this thread was made to be a safe place to do that
The former is a perfectly noble goal, to absolve oneself of the guilt. But it's a selfish motivation, not a selfless one.
It becomes hypocritical then when one acts with hostility towards the vegan curious and get defensive and hunker down for arguments or fights, as these are the ways one builds themselves up.
But as stated above, this is at cost to animals, where one additional converted vegan is more good than you could otherwise ever do with a lifetime of vegan consumption.
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I would definitely eat a stranger's child if it were as legal to do so as it is to eat a cow.
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I will cry while eating a cow but I will not stop eating the cow. Preferrably alive.
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I'm pretty constantly cleaning myself, like, by hand. If I notice a dirt buildup anywhere I remove it. Sometimes I actually clean myself too much, and then I start bleeding because I removed living skin instead of dead skin, that's not great.>>979874
I will also cry while eating a live cow. Probably due to the broken limbs and concussions.
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Humans... are animals.
Animals... are animals.
Eating meat... is Cannibalism.
I just think thats great!
Eating meat is ethical cannibalism. Its not really ethical but its more ethical than normal human cannibalism.
I mean, by all means, give empathic vegan activism a go.
I have a hunch it won't work out like you imagine, but I'd love to see you try.
If you can demonstrate this works, I'll gladly join that cause.
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No, probably not.
Yknow how kids are. Stringy.
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So far I'm on 4 full converts and 5 vegetarians with my demeanors, and this over about a year. Call me when you match this.>>979879
We're talking from experience?
Dangit Rose, mor Glimmer?
I alrady killed time by practicing expressions with her today, I can't keep being exposed to more.
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Maybe in a past life!
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>>979855>I think someone just went completely blind going on that diet.
A lot of meat eaters go blind, I assume this is because of their diet as well? Correlation does not equal causation.>>979863
You should probably bath yourself using a cloth and a bucket at the very least. Who knows what kind of illnesses you could be opening yourself up to by not cleaning yourself.>>979868>The question is, why do we choose to be vegan? For ourselves to feel okay with our behavior? For the animals?
That’s called vegetarianism. It allows you to virtue signal to all your friends about how morally righteous you are, while also giving you your own sense of self inflated worth and moral superiority, without actually doing much of anything to reduce the amount of animal suffering you bring into the word.>>979880
Who are the converts?
Also weren’t you vegetarian for several years? No offence, but why did it take you so long to go vegan? I went straight from meat eater to vegan.
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silly vegan dont you know theres no ethical consumption under capitalism?
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Who here is gonna go Full Freagin Vegan? you only eat stuff that doesnt cast a shadow.
>>979884>No offence, but why did it take you so long to go vegan? I went straight from meat eater to vegan.
It just took me a while to figure myself out.
I had this idea that the primary driver for animal agriculture was the meat. If no one was willing to buy the meat, then cultivating animals for other products would become unprofitable, and that was kinda how I justified sitting on the fencepost.
Vegetarians are great!
They just need a bit of help letting go of cheese.
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People dont like anyone that try to force their views down other peoples throats with guilt trips and other abusive manipulations.
oh, the converts right.
Vegans: my sister, mom, dad, psychology student friend, Thorax,
Vegetarians: gaming buddy, 2 bros from the climbing gym, another study buddy, my uncle and my cousin, and maybe more that I've forgotten?
Oh, yes. I think some vegetarians eat cheese.>>979892
The reason people don't like vegans is because they are abusive. Well, I don't support abuse, I hope people stay safe.
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>>979884>A lot of meat eaters go blind, I assume this is because of their diet as well? Correlation does not equal causation.
All I can really do on that front is parrot the headline.https://www.salon.com/2019/09/04/teenager-goes-blind-from-years-long-diet-of-french-fries-potato-chips-and-white-bread/
Even as a vegan, you should probably eat more than potatoes and bread.>You should probably bath yourself using a cloth and a bucket at the very least. Who knows what kind of illnesses you could be opening yourself up to by not cleaning yourself.
Eh, I'll live.
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Not all vegans are. And theyre not really outright abusive, they just use the same tactics as abusers do to get what they want.
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What’s unethical about a company voluntarily hiring someone to produce something for you to buy? I agree that many workers should revive higher pay for the products they produce, but considering that the process is at every stage voluntary I don’t see the problem with it.
People like to complain about the conditions of third world workers, and how we should boycott this, and boycott that. What they don’t realise is that these people have no better option, they don’t want to work for a dollar a day, but they have to feed their families. By boycotting certain industries you’re putting people out of voluntary work, that they need to feed themselves and their family, otherwise they might literally starve. I agree that their conditions should be vastly improved, and I’d be willing to pay a little extra to see that happening, but putting people out of work isn’t the solution. What we need is to get the government to give favourable trade deals to developing nations and companies that have good worker rights. It’s not perfect, but it beats putting people out of work and left to starvation due to boycotts.
Also before someone makes this argument, I know that in some very extreme cases these people are slaves, but I’m not talking about those very extreme cases, which I obviously oppose.
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Boycotts also dont work.
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Then what would you suggest?
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You're just saying that to try to get me to shower. Not gonna work.
Abusive tactics sounds like abuse. I assume not all were abusive, it would be weird if it were a rule without fail.
I know when people are mean about something it's hard to like that something.
Let me think, has that happened to me? Well, I've met some not-very-nice scientists. I created a category of science to put them in, I call it human-science.
>>979898>but considering that the process is at every stage voluntary I don’t see the problem with it.
If you use a kind of loose definition of "voluntary"
case in point:>people have no better option, they don’t want to work for a dollar a day, but they have to feed their families.>What we need is to get the government to give favourable trade deals to developing nations and companies that have good worker rights. It’s not perfect, but it beats putting people out of work and left to starvation due to boycotts.
Favorable trade deals are not often profitable enough, and whomever profits the most is the one who will set the rules in the future.
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A level 5 vegan? That’s a bit extreme, even for me.>>979889>People really don't like vegetarians, I've noticed.
It’s because most vegan stereotypes come from vegetarians, that and the fact that aren’t actually doing much in practice to end the animal agriculture industry, but they expect us vegans to congratulate them for it.>>979890
That’s fair enough. Not to brag but even before I heard about veganism when I was about 12 I remember trying to cut down on my meat and dairy intake for ethical reasons, I forgot about it after a week, because I was like 12. I’ve never understood the whole vegetarian thing, veganism just seems like the logical conclusion to it, in which case why would go half way.>>979893
You’re extremely lucky, I wish I was able to stop my family constantly teasing me about it, never mind actually converting them.>>979895
Yeah that’s pretty fucked up. You’re naturally going to have serious health complications if you follow an extremely restrictive diet like that.>>979905
Again it’s not perfect, but I think it’s the best we can hope for in a imperfect world.
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We need resources to survive, regardless of what system we're under. I don't think that makes it non-voluntary. Not unless we want to get some kind of strange transhuman society, where in everyone abandons their biological prisons, for the freedom offered by the machines.
I guess I'm not really against that. Especially if I can be a qt lizardbot.
Vegetarians are fine. It's the vegans who are the problem. They get too preachy.>>979907
I tend to try to avoid fatty stuff. Not for any real health reasons, just because I just don't really stomach it well.
It tends to leave my gut a bit messed up unfortunately.
A lot of people are born into 'blood-debt' inherited from their parents. Other forms of debt also put people in perpetual bondage. Because wealth is also influence, influence that can exerted to keep people in debt, it's hard to say when the debt is not just slavery with extra steps.
The UN estimated that there were 20 million people living in debt bondage in the year 1998, and this number has likely increased since.
I AM incredibly privileged, actually.
My family is literally the best. I never really experience judgement or ridicule at home, we have a few jokes, but it's kept above the belt. I feel fortunate to have been born where I was.
...if i may say, minty, blaming the vegan stereotype on vegetarians seems... misplaced.
...i find myself a little gobsmacked by your reasoning. It is mysterious to me. >>979890>>979891>>979893
i can learn from you, rose! You will count me too one day, perhaps!
I'm mostly talking in regards to the feed your family bit.
But yeah, debts shouldn't be inherited.
I'll also throw in that I'd personally rather not deal with the 3rd world for cheap labor, regardless, without some fairly extensive requirements.
But that's less a humanitarian angle, since I think there's validity in both arguments, and more because they cheat.
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If we can work out our differences I'd love to make you a notch on my belt
I have already learned a lot from you too, you know. You're an immense source of inspiration on the topic of work ethic.
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>>979912>I AM incredibly privileged, actually.
Ha ha, yeah your privilege practically oozes off or you with every syllable you speak. You’re like the perfect archetype of a privileged middle class European. (By the way don’t give me any of this “I feel guilty for my privilege” crap, you’ll only be further playing into the meme. You should feel proud and lucky if anything.)>>979913
I basically see them as massive virtue signallers who go vegetarian to gain social points within their specific peer groups, or to inflate their ego. Or they’re just ignorant of the damage that dairy does to animals, which is understandable, I can’t really fault them for that.
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I'm not sure if I feel guilty, except when I manage to squander the opportunities given to me.
I do feel a desire to give back to the world that has been so kind to me, though.
...oh no. That is not a source of inspiration you should take from me.
...i could be so much better. You should not take inspiration from me.
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Please, you're wonderful
You're very good at putting other things than yourself first. It's impressive.
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You have a degree in physiology, and you’re still following on with college. I’d say that’s the opposite of squandering your opportunities.
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Actually it's a bachelors in psychology, and I'm supplementing with data science and philosophy now.
I'll be content when I also have a job and am doing some activism. I think that will be sufficient.
Or maybe a dog.
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>Mfw this thrad suddnly is super wholesome
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it's cause you showed up
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Not really sure what to vent about.
All this vegan talk is annoying as hell, I guess.
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Clearly the universe sensed you approaching.
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Vegetarianism is a massive virtue signal because it has near complete social acceptance, and it does virtually nothing from a practical standpoint to reduce animal suffering, because most vegetarians just find other areas within the animal agriculture industry. In fact you could argue that it’s morally worse because the specific industries it supports do significantly more harm to animals than purely meat based industries.
I’m terrified to come as vegan IRL. As I’ve said my experience with my family has been beyond horrible, and they still continue to tease me and make fun of me for it to this day. How can I virtue signal about it when I’m terrified of telling anyone?>>979923
Sorry, I meant psychology. (I actually wrote that out and for whatever reason thought I was mistaking the two, so I changed it, ha ha.)
But seriously, I don’t see how you aren’t living up to your potential. It sounds like you’ve done everything possible in terms of self improvement.
Also, I thought you were against pets? You want a dog?>>979924
Really, how so?>>979927
Just vent about the first thing that comes into your head.
Can't have, it didn't run away screaming in terror>>979929
Do you not see the sudden row of post sof folks complimenting eachother?
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From my perspective you’re certainly doing excellent for yourself.>>979931
Oh, yeah I see them now. Thank you!
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I feel bad for getting annoyed with my girlfriend's trauma issues.
is that venting?
It would probably be hard not to, in many situations. How's she doing?
I think that's 100% vent right there
Dun thank me, you guys are teh wholesome ones.>>979934
That does sound frustrating.
Frustrating, but understandable. These things are usually not easy to deal with for ANYONE.
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People annoy me when they don't do their job.
More of a vent than an unpopular opinion.
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She's doing...not great? Liie overall shes doing okay but recently its not great.
Mainly I just. I dont GET her trauma. I know of the situations that caused her to have these issues and I just. Dont GET why. I know the situations and I just. I dont think they SHOULD be so trauma inducing. I just dont get it and that makes it hard to empathise and even sympathize. Theyre simply situations that I do not understand why they should cause so much harm. Especially since I was around for the aftermath of one of them and she didn't even express anything other than anger about it and then didnt even mention it again for months and then all of a sudden it was this big traumatic experience for her. And I get that trauma is like that sometimes its just. Difficult.
Plus she just keeps going over the same things again and again. Ive helped her solve these issues DOZENS of times now and it just KEEPS coming up.
And I COMPLETELY understand why it does, I get that trauma does that to people. It just annoys me go no end and every time she brings it up I cant help but think "oh my GOD we KNOW SERIOUSLY" or "jesus christ GET OVER IT already,
" and that makes me feel horrible.
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A usual frustration
Wow, that's more than I expected! I think anyone would be frustrated in this sort of situation.
Idk if it helps but when this kind of thing happens to me I try a mindfulness technique.
It consists of two parts.
The first is recognizing that our cognition is in large part reflexive. We have an experiential feeling of control and freedom, but the truth of the matter is that what enters our conscious thought is not always under our control. So when a thought that causes rumination or anxiety enters my brain unbidden, I try to aknowledge it's presence by literally thinking "I just thought x" or "I just felt y" and then let it pass.
The exercise serves to remind me that I am not responsible for actions that are not voluntary, and also to help me sort of loop around and ground myself in reality once more to exist in the moment free from internally caused suffering.
Idk, maybe this can help? Maybe not.
But yeah, it sounds really tough. It'd be nice to find a way to navigate it.
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Lmao I love finding about techniques like this and I'm just like "what the fuck i already DO that"
Intrusive thoughts are intrusive thoughts. If you dont act on them all they are are thoughts.
I never say anything to her about this stuff. I listen and I try to help if she needs it or I can and just swallow my issues with it.
The most Ive done is told her thay I cant handle it when the only thing she does when she talks to me is vent and complain about her issues. There was a point where we would only talk privately when she had a negative experience or an issue flare up and I had to get past that for my own mental and emotional well being.
Weve also talked about it in general and she knows my issues with adressing the same stuff over and over again and how I'm not emotionally well enough to deal with her trauma in the ways that she needs.
She knows now thag I need a good amount of distance and time alone in a relationship and thats helped a lot.
Shit, that's really cool ^_^
Sounds like you two work well together despite it all
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Yeah, we've known each other for years now.
I started dating her right off from a pretty meh relationship that was getting too serious too fast for me with a guy I had started dating after only knowing him for like a month.
At that point I was like "God I am never dating someone I just recently met ever again". She helped me realize that I needed to break up with him and pretty much immediately we realized that we would be good together.
She was still dating someone at the time and hadn't decided if poly would work for them, even though they basically had an open relationship already, and she was almost about to break up with her girlfriend at that point. I was able to help them stay together and they decided to try out poly in practice rather than just in theory, and I started dating her right after.
They immediately took to the poly relationship style and it's all gone really great so far.
I also recently started dating two other girls that we met through a mutual group (one of whom is also dating my first girlfriend).
Oops I may have just gone off on a tangent.
Nah, not this week.
What'd they do?
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Everyone knows about the nobility of sacrificing oneself for millions of lives, but the survival of our own species is easy to justify.
What if dozens of extraterrestrial civilizations needed to wipe out humanity to survive? Would anyone willingly sacrifice our entire race to save tens of trillions of innocent sapients?
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No I'd kill them all myself.
I know what the point is, it's just a naive pipedream at this moment.
Besides I was mocking the idea that such tariffs are something that China pays to us, when it's really just a tax that gets passed on to the consumer, especially when it's on goods that are, at this point, exlusively manufactured in China.
It was in response to the thing that you said was "case and point">>people have no better option, they don’t want to work for a dollar a day, but they have to feed their families.
I do not think the necessity required for survival is unjust. That's all.
It's always going to be present, in life, no matter what. At least, unless we end up replacing ourselves with machines.
You will always need food and water to survive. The requirement to intake food and water, or to acquire those resources, is not inherently unjust, as was seemed to have been implied
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i am sorry, Andrea.
I get this ominous phone call from my sister a little over a week ago and she's asking me to come visit my mother this fall cause the last time she got sick (earlier this summer) her cardiologist took her aside to explain that people don't live that far into their 70s with congestive heart failure.
So while she's not sick now, she's could go any day now. And that's been occupying my mind a lot since then, and that probably contributed a lot to how stoned I've been getting lately.
Then the otherday I get a phonecall from my brother-in-law and I expect him to tell me mom passed in her sleep but instead he tells me my brother drunk himself to the ER and my sister called the poloce on him after he trashed my mom's room.
Then it turns out that he lost his job and his wife's mother died of cancer last month so she's all fucked up by that now, on top of the fact that he's got a 1 year old right now.
And it just seems like everyone else is just constantly having a bad time too, like a bunch of random shit just keeps happening to my family in recent years. Like how my nephew developed epilepsy and my niece developed schizophrenia a few years ago....
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Is there anything that would help right now?
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Your family should do the hard work now, while you can all still function at some level. You do not mention your father so I assume he is either dead or not in your lives.
Have the will sorted out, written, and set. If you have it already, get everyone together and reiterate it so everyone understands. Emphasize that that's how it is.
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What brand bottle waters have glass bottles?
I dunno. I want to say weed would help but I am trying to take a break from it tonight. >>979977
My father passed away nearly a decade ago.
We've got a will all sorted out and everything. I think at this point everyone, including my mother, is ready for her to pass. Doesn't make thinking about it much less hard.
I just didn't expect my brother to be the one who almost died this time. And now I am going to be worried that he's could potentially end up like my uncle, who died of a heart attack in a homeless shelter while drunk out of his mind
And I had so much hope for my brother. three years ago he bought a house with his girlfriend, two years ago they got married, and last year they had a daughter together. It's like, I had no idea that he was crashing like this until basically just yesterday.
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Oh you mean like an actual bottle for water. That makes more sense to be glass. As for crystals... I'll never understand that.
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I suree fucking know how that efels.s.s.x.ss.s
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I just got back from the bar and was multitasking. I'm better now!
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a family of so much suffering... the worst part is the snowball feeling, you know? like, if one person starts doing poorly, it effects everyone else
Andrea, i am really sorry to hear about all this suffering in your family. Are you keeping in touch with your sister too now? maybe you two can make sure to keep close care of each other?
i am really sorry to hear all this has happened... we will commiserate together, Andrea. you can vent to us anytime. me especially, if you like to!
and always big hugs>hugs. <3
That's pretty special
I've always really admired poly relationships, I think it's pretty cool when you can make it work.
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i do not know how to say this and i am so tired but when i see the word "poly" i think of FIGHTING POLYGON TEAM!! in the smash brothers
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Bar, huh? Sounds fun.
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I honestly haven't liked those people who say tulpas and/or AP won't bring anything except something similar to schizophrenia. I have to keep trying to get to her. I want to keep trying my hardest to get to Dash.
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If it makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone.
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Sriracha is pretty gross.
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For social settings, most of the time I feel like I am a big loser looking into the window where people have fun together and I pretend that I can get along as well.
And that works until people notice me and tell me to fuck off.
And some people try to be nice, but social settings are absoçlutely not for me and I can't help but need them.
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It's strange. I certainly feel competent and I can certainly say that I've never struggled with any kinds of feelings of low esteem. Possibly the opposite. But I still seem to periodically get hit by feelings of... "nonpersonness." Like, the mental refrain has been "stop feeling bad, only people get to feel things."
I've also been growing slowly furious at people who have been very dear friends to me who can't really seem to... bother. So yeah. I'm mad at people for leaving me abandoned in times of need.
i don't buy that