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 No.927834[Last 50 Posts]

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i know this is somewhat political... But i have faith that we can discuss it gently.

New Zealand had a horrible terrorist attack last night, that directly involved the internet. As an image board, this affects us more than most and i would love to hear your take on things


What is there to say?

Is there much ambiguity around literal white supremists?


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Supposedly one of the shooters left a manifesto that called it a terrorist attack, so no, I don't think there's a lot of ambiguity there.


No, no ambiguity. But i figured, this was a very big world event that folks would wish to talk about :c


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It's a pretty big event, I'm still reading the New Zealand Herald.  Just keeps going with witness testimonies and stuff.  I imagine it's going to bring up all the usual debates.  Gun control is the obvious one, mental health screening and terrorists watches (though from what I'm reading they weren't on any kind of list and appear to be in sound mental health, I might debate whether anyone who murders 50 people is really mentally stable).


It is a big event sure.


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Glad that Audrey ain't a muslim for sure. Wonder what she's up to.



Tragic death is sad.  :(

I looked over my notes on Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism, and didn't come up with much insight.  I have seen echos of this "white genocide conspiracy theory" on Facebook.  I see people upset by some aspects of society's liberal movement, perhaps as much as angry.  I know about worrying about change in general, but I don't think I know what's happening and how the fears work. I would need something like Arendt's book but for Neo-nazis, not just classical Nazi's.


not sure what there is to say that isn't obvious


After 9/11, and pretty much every anniversary after, i wish i had a place i could just express my feelings. This feels similar, is all. And we do have kiwi community members.


Express away I guess.


I haven't kept up on it, yet. Usually these things start to change rather radically as time goes on, so, I'm typically rather careful about jumping in.


I don't find it amazing landing on discussion pages where people cheer on this turn of events.

It's prettt gross how polarised society has become.


That is true too, Noonim, very true

It is frightening. It is important in these times for people to embrace each other instead of being afraid of one another, i think


White nationalism, xenophobia and ethnocentrism are inherently problematic ideas in todays world. I feel like we all have a duty to educate ourselves on the impacts of immigration and multiculturalism and to challenge anyone if they speak badly of people from other countries with solid facts and arguments. We should recognize dogwhistles and not accept covert strategizing. We should examine our own beliefs, ideas and ideologies and make sure they're based on solid grounding, especially when they have the potential to hurt others.


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I'd wish for that too, Moony.


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Either nothing will change, or there will be a new law shat through saying usage of such sites will allow certain agencies to know the locations and information of the users who go there, and to preemptively look into if they're a threat or not.


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Personally, I find this sort of thing to be rather distasteful, insofar as political posturing on tragedies goes.
I've always held the same sort of stance when it comes to most any act of terror, or other similar tragedy.
It always comes across as a tad disingenuous to me.


What's disingenuous?

Moony asked for a discussion, this is what I genuinely think is the best thing to do, and I thought it before it happened.


> le tor user face


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I just hear that.

I heard the guy make a 17 minute livestreaming giving hate messages and later showming how he was shooting in the mezquite.

In my case I would like to watch that livestream to hear his messages and look how behaves.
To the purpose to have an idea how a terrorist behaves with their hate in a society.
Probably the livestream was removed in the social network though.

> As an image board, this affects us more than most

>It is frightening. It is important in these times for people to embrace each other instead of being afraid of one another, i think

I will only embrace people who are worthy and who gained my trust and friendship.
I won't embrace or love people who disrespect or hates me for whatever reason.


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Most any political posturing off of a tragedy. Especially one where I feel like a lot of people aren't actually looking into it as much as they ought to.
This might be less of a critique of you and more of the mainstream media, at the moment, admittedly.
But it does sound more or less the same. That is to say, more of the same sort of posturingon the backs of a recently deceased. Seems like every tragedy that ever happens, people come out of the woodwork to say their particular political rivals are to blame and more must be done to drive them away.

I don't like it.
especially since it seems like that's part of what the guy wanted. At least from what I am hearing of his actual manifesto. I'll have to try to actually read it when I get home.


there's plenty of people who are willing to trust white nationalists. The Turner Diaries have inspired multiple horrendous attacks in the US since their writing.


There is plenty of things that have inspired plenty of different people. Should we ban the Koran and Bible? Should we ban items by Marx, or. Mussolini?

People have trusted a lot of untrustworthy people. People trusted Stalin, they trusted Hitler, people of trusted countless leaders of all sorts of different walks of life.
This isn't exactly a new thing. I'm not sure I see the point.


The Turner Diaries were written by William Luther Pierce, founder of the National Alliance in 1974, which today is under the control of Kevin Alfred Strom, who reorganized it as the National Vanguard in 2005. Both of these organizations are white nationalist/neo-nazi affiliations. The Alliance is
The Order took their name from the Turner Diaries. They assassinated Alan Berg in 1984.
Timothy McVeigh used the bombing of the FBI building as the book describes as his inspiration for the Oklahoma city bombings.

It is a not a book of religious doctrine, it is a book of fiction made to inspire hate and act upon it. This has been demonstrated many times over several decades.


Like I said, I don't really understand your point. Loads of things have been used to do the same.

It seems, like I said, disingenuous political posturing on the backs of the deceased.
Basically, the usual shittiness.


my point is that white supremacy shouldn't be treated with skepticism. It is real, it is dangerous, and it is used to justify killing.


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I'm not treating it with skepticism.
I recognize its danger. In the same way I recognize the danger of any form of collectivist ideology.
You clearly don't understand my point, here.
My point is targeting only one particular political stretch when this type of shit is constant betrays your own particular partisan bias.
It's the primary reason I can't stand when anyone does this type of thing. Standing on the backs of the dead to push their narrative, to try to use it to attack their enemies.


I don't usually like Tim Pool, given his obvious biases I'd say is largely due to his particular social groups, not to mention his general way of saying a ton of words without actually saying anything, but, he's done a pretty good video on this subject.
If you can bear the nihlism, anyway. I think he's too bleak, but, it is what it is.


my partisan bias??? excuse me?
What have I said exactly, betrays that bias?


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The immediate jump of "this ideology is dangerous" while ignoring all the others is pretty blatant, you ask me


Yeah! I did!

I ignored all the shitty memes he filled his manifesto with! Pewdiepie, Candace Owens, everything else! Why would I acknowledge any of that???

what else is there???

Did I not make the most reasonable conclusion???


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Noonim, please relax. You're accusing folks. It's going to get defensive, and therefore dramatic in here, if this continues.

I don't think Anon is trying to push an agenda on top of tragedy, and i think it's fair to talk about our underlying political thoughts if, and only if, we can stay civil.


i think your response here has poisoned that well just a bit. So let's take a step back, and keep things civil.

if you ask me, now would be a time more than ever to try and understand one another instead of putting the boots on.


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I don't know the details but I think people across the spectrum have been steadily getting radicalized for a while now, and this is the inevitable result.

I have my own philosophical views on everything, but they're tedious and beyond the scope of this discussion.


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I responded to what you said to me. Not what you chose to ignore in the guy's particular background.
Most that stuff you're referencing is my primary problem with your political posturing. This guy had made it abundantly clear near as I can tell and had been reported to me that he wants to basically ignite social unrest using the massive split of politics currently dictating most dialogue today.
It's why i, frankly, am a tad annoyed Mooney made this thread in the first place.
Frankly, I think this thread's existence is a win for the fucker. It's unfortunate that his terrible act seems to be largely successful for his ultimate goal, as I've understood it.

The problem here is, this is just more of the usual, with the only real change being this guy actually wanted this. He wanted the type of response frankly Anon here is giving.
But, alright. I'll leave off from Anon.


I will not tolerate white nationalism. I have done that for far too long already.


Everything's political, Noonim. You only notice and consider this 'political' because it's something that you don't agree with.

Just because I sound like something you don't like, I'd kindly ask you don't label me as not genuine when I mildly state that we should confront these ideas and consider our own more carefully.

I've watched crying as muslims around the world mourned their dead family members, and as they begged that people realize they are not all like the most radical among them. Muslims renounce ismalist terror attacks en masse with practically no media coverage. My best friends, muslim, are some of the most beautiful people I know, I've tutored muslim children in the suburbs, and seen the prejudice disadvantage and hate they face on a daily basis.

This sounds like a fucking meme, but it's genuinely all true.

I dare to speak my personal opinion when prompted by someone else, and so often someone like you jumps out and accuses me of virtue signalling or being disingenuous.

Yes the media profits from catastrophizing and sensationalizing.

I'm not the media.

I mean terror attacks in muslims mosques always have the same motive, dude...  this has happened enough times now, we should all be aware what sentiment is behind it...

I can give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just don't know what you're saying, but maybe you should inform yourself before you take mine away.

The person who performed the terror attack was found listening to music associated with white supremacy groups.

He referenced neo-nazy and white nationalist rhetorik, outright stating that the reason for this attack was subversive replacement of ethnic whites.

Pleeeaaase tell me I'm allowed to just fucking state that we should inform ourselves and renounce these kinds of ideas where we meet them. It's so obviously the right thing to do, and that's my genuine belief as it has always been.


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It's a terrible tragedy that should have never happened.

But I worry just how much of his manifesto will turn out to be true. How much the media will try to exploit this to push an agenda to restrict people's rights. The media has been overeager for anything that might discredit the right-wing for years now, so they'll end up giving him exactly what he wanted.


As long as speakers from the right wing don't personally support racist rhetoric, there will be no reason that they should feel discredited by the actions of fringe political terrorists.

It's thankfully possible to be conservative without being a literal nazi, although it seems easy to forget these day.


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Good for you.
I'm a bit more principled, myself. I simply won't stand for any collectivism come of any kind. I've yet to see any that don't inevitably violate the rights of the individuals, after all. identitarian collectivists, naturally, are the worst, but, none the less, collectivists are the primary concern that I have that way.
Makes it easy not to concern myself with the particular ideology involved, and therefor give into the reason they engaged in these particular acts in the first place.
I find myself able to Simply condemn the action, as the action itself is by my standards inherently immoral. You do not violate the rights of the individual, plainly put.


I like how we've skipped the liberals saying something retarded in response to a right wing terrorist attack and we've skipped straight to the right wing being outraged.

Really the true victims of this massacre.


like I said, these particular occurrences happen from many ideologies. Funnily enough you mentioned Islam, Islam is one such ideology that seems to propagate these types of incidents. This is my problem.

I am more than happy to condemn the individual. I am more than happy to condemn particular ideologies based on the traits of said ideologies. I don't much like taking a single action from somebody and using it as a particular political point. Maybe it is the individual listing me, but, none of this ever seems to be right to me.

it is possible you don't really mean what I am taking it as. I'll recognize that.
But, I think the majority of people don't realize it when they do say that sort of thing.
it annoys me so deeply because it's part of why we get such a radical division in both politics and society as a whole. It is why so many governments and social media sites and so many other things can censor people, generally treat others like garbage, and push all sorts of particular political narratives actively violating people's basic rights, only furthering the radicalization of every single group out there. Be a Muslim, Nazi, whatever.
I am sorry I take my frustration out on you. I am just very tired of seeing this course of action people are taking.


>I'm a bit more principled

Dude I'm not even gonna bother if you're just gonna talk down from your high horse like this


That does not mean that the left will not try to pin these actions on the right, as they have done countless lie, for ages, especially around Trump.


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I was expecting to talk.
But my time only got wasted.


Have fun with your caucus race.


Bad phrasing, o guess. I am doing this from my phone. I mean to say, I'm not concerned with the particular tribal side as it relates to politics, I'm concerned with the violating of rights


I will just comment that I really don't think trying to pathologize the shooter is in any way constructive, not that I have seen that in much commentary of this so far, but as Mondo mentioned earlier in this thread that very often the issue of mental health gets brought up. Which I think not only serves to hurt people with actual mental health issues,  but also just serves to reinforce people's own egos.

It doesn't take mental illness to be convinced of one's righteousness and justification to use violence against a perceived menace, if that were true than no body would be capable of fighting in war. In fact it is because this is such a normal part of being human that wars and mass violence and terrorism can happen at all.

As I see it, the best counter to this is self-doubt and humility. Something I think is sorely lacking these days, and which I think are actually undermined by dismissing this as a case of mental illness.


Frankly Noonim, I see your responses as being the disingenuous responses.

It's betraying your fundamentally paranoid vase assumptions on someone else's comments, which you are also disengenuously exploiting to try and make this thread an excersize in what-aboutism.


so you're gonna call me out for my bias while simultaneously telling us that the left is going to pin this on Trump on the right and pretend you're the principled one.


You're not wrong.

But you are a damned hypocrite.



Like clockwork.

I mean I think Islam was involved the moment a discussion about a terror attack on a MOSQUE happened.

I get the impression you genuinely believe Trump doesn't deserve blame for propegating racist rhetorik.

I'm actually a bit baffled.


It is entirely possible, I guess. I am rather annoyed with the entire situation. Especially, frankly, Mooney making the thread.
Like I said, I think that is what this guy wanted. At least from what I understand of his particular manifesto.

Maybe I just need to leave be until at the very least, I am home.


How the fuck is that hypocritical?
in what way is what I said anything less than an objective observation? Everybody and their mother knows that anytime anything remotely associated with a right-wing negative happens, the media automatically pins it on the nearest right wing enemy they can find.

I don't even consider myself right wing, anyway. I find the whole right left dichotomy to be rather cancerous. I prefer simply calling myself an individualist, as I think that is the biggest, most important classification. The differences between collectivist and individualist are far more substantial than left and right, in my experience.


do you even read how you talk about yourself


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The amount of actual racists and white supremacists is such a fringe minorty group that they might as well be considered irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Problem is though, the mainstream media has been on a public smear campaign against right-wingers and conversatives for years now.


The biggest problem here is that by using this tragedy as ammo for their smear campaign against right-wingers and conservatives, the media is giving this psychopath exactly what he wanted. He literally wrote this in his manifesto. He wants to fuel the ongoing culture war.


>so you're gonna call me out for my bias while simultaneously telling us that the left is going to pin this on Trump on the right

I mean... let's be honest... they will.


>I get the impression you genuinely believe Trump doesn't deserve the blame for propegating racist rhetorik.

Trump isn't racist and is not propogating racist rhetoric.


I've not heard anything substantial from Trump that would suggest to me that he is in any way a racist. He seems to be an individualist.
I have a ton of critiques for a guy. especially as it relates to the second amendment, but there's lots of other mind your items as well. I don't like corporate tax breaks, for instance.
but I do not believe for a second that he is a racist, nor would I be inclined to accept the notion that he's responsible for racism.


not an argument. Right now I am mostly dictating into my phone. So it might come across as a tad odd due to that, though. So if that's what you mean, my apologies I guess.

do you have any particular argument to make about the hypocrisy, or are you abandoning that point trying to move the goalposts so as to Simply Dodge that particular difficulty?


>Trump isn't racist and is not propogating racist rhetoric.
This is such an amazing claim

I don't know if you realize exactly how amazing it is.

Omg there are two of them. What the fuck.

An individualist would respect personal autonomi. Trump is anti-abortion, which is a huge violation of bodily autonomy, has LITERALLY sexually assaulted dozens, which is a huuuge violation of bodily autonomy, and is in favor of traumatic deportation and seperation of families.

Calling trump an individualist is like calling the sky red, for christs sake, think, man.


>Trump doesn't propogate racism


Hail Trump

Hail our people

Hail victory



I mean, you're the one using this situation to condemn anyone who has a "collectivist" ideology (nuance be damned), declare yourself "more principled" and frame your own myopic and egocentric interpretations "objective" and "just obvious" in a ridiculously arrogant way.

So it comes off as hypocritical when you say "of course they are going to pin this on the right wing" when you're pinning this on "collectivisism". It all comes off as fundamentally masturbatory.



>not an argument
lol no shit, Molyneaux


I'm abandoning this because trying to have a debate is pointless if you're going to posture yourself as more rational.


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I'm not going to let an Anon bait me into a Trump discussion in a thread that's about a tragedy, so all I have to say is that if Trump really was a racist, I'd be convinced by the proof by now.

Unfortunately, not only is there none, but it seems like the exact opposite camp has become more and more racist over the years.



Try to keep things civil in here, I'm trying to take a nap.  Don't make personal attacks and also don't take things as though they were personal attacks.  Just share your thoughts on the situation.


It seems like it would maybe be prudent to self examine in the light of a tragedy, but it's cool if you'd rather just forget about it

I bet that makes the mental gymnastics a lot easier, so I can understand why you'd want that.


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>smear campaign against right-wingers and conservatives

Almost daily, the newspapers are coming up with shite refugees and whatnot are up to and all.

And every coment section is about the media covering everything up.

People complain about schools being full of leftist indoctrination.

And frankly, I wonder what the alternative would be?


He's had accusations of sexual assault. It's hard to tell if any are actually true, given the media is rampant listen and believe mantra oh, just spitting straight into the face of the concept of Justice. unfortunately, because of that, I have no idea if there are actually any credible, proven accusations yet.

those who are in this country illegally should be reported, you ask me. I do not believe that is any kind of violation of any rights.

The abortion issue is particularly complex. I am actually not quite sure where I'm aligned. on one hand, there is a strong argument to be made, I believe, for the child's rights. On the other, where exactly a child begins as a life form which would have rights is a tad questionable.
it's something I personally wouldn't really make a judgment on, ultimately. If I had to make the choice directly, that is if I would do it, I would say absolutely not. I wouldn't want to risk violating somebody's rights, effectively. But, on the legal side, I'm inclined to say it should be allowed, largely for the same reason. I'm not sure, therefore I don't want to violate people's rights. if they end up violating people's rights, that's on them. That's their sin so to speak.


did I pin it on collectivism? I think all I said was that I personally condemned collectivism in all forms, because near as I can tell, collectivism does not concern itself with the rights of the individual, and so inevitably ends up violating those rights. usually in the name of the greater good. The collectivist would be inclined coming near as I can tell, to murder somebody, if it meant saving 10 others. Personally, I believe that is wrong.

as you the principal lot, I mostly just misspoke. It's a bit of a problem when you trying to dictate into a microphone.


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What would non-left washed schools teach?

Race theory?
Cut teaching people foreign languages?
Teach kids nationalists ideals?
Teach kids it is wrong too fraternize with inferiors?
That foreigners are responsible for all that is going wrong with society?
That climate stuff is a big hoax?


Hey, doesn't this thread violate your rules on political bait, anyway? Though I think that rule never actually got added into the rules page, so I can't really check unfortunately.
I would have thought this particular thread is the type of thing that we were trying to avoid with that. Kind of funny when the admin makes the same thing I guess.


You're trying to argue that a man who has had 19 allegations against him, and who has gone on record as saying that you should just 'grab them by the pussy', respects bodily autonomi.

I mean... just concede this point. It's laughably pointless to argue it.

As you say we can argue about the other two issues all day, and I have my own reasons for considering his stances really abhorrent, but you can believe what you will about these. I refuse that you could be so dumb as to ignore this, though.


>but it seems like the exact opposite camp has become more and more racist over the years

ah yes

that same camp that elected a black person into office in 2009

and then did it again

brilliant, you've figured it out, based and redpilled


I cannot trust allegations. Maybe you can, but I've seen the typical media response to anyone they disagree with, and it seems lobbing accusations is the go to these days. Sorry I have standards when it comes to Justice.


Right, because you can only be racist to black people.


So you're just fine with his idea of 'grab them by the pussy'? Maybe you think this is the kind of thing an individualist should believe?


And furthermore, you think that these two ideas together, do not suggest to you, that he might not be an individualist?

You'd apply occam's razor, and in this case, you'd consider the most likely scenario, that this man is an individualist?


oh christ I can feel the 'dems are the real racists' speech coming.

whatever, get it out of your system.


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If you think right-wingers in general are responsble for this, I think you hav some self-examining of yourself to do.


These comment sections and the complaints are the people are the result of these smear campaigns.

Covington really shows just how bad it is. All it took was for one kid to smile to launch a massive global smear campaign against the right-wing. And what happened when it was proven that the exact opposite was true? Many media outlets refuse to correct their story, to the point that the matter is now being taken to court, and masses of left-wingers stil cry for the kid's head.

As for refugees, do you think crimes committed by them should be silenced? They're already frequently being censored by referring to them as "confused individuals".


The same camp that voted a black person in the office exclusively because he was black, yes.

And I guess you believe you can't be racist against whites.



guess this applies here, too.

Spell it out for me. Really take your time. Paint a picture.


Personally, I think he was just talking shit. I don't really think it reflects on anything other than his high school tier mind, at worst.

Near as I can tell, he's still pushing for more individualist policies than any other people I've seen lately. At least as far as mainstream politicians go. I can't say for certain if he's an individualist, but, he seems more inclined to the classic American view, which is inherently individualist.
I'm not going to say they are the real racists. I'm just going to say that they have a lot of racism rampant in their party.


I really like how heavily you're demonstrating your bias kind of proving me right all along. It's quite funny actually.


I made this post
I don't believe that the conservatives are inherently racists, and I've never said they are.

Neither have I said anything about right wingers in general being responsible for this.

I've condemned, ethno-nationalism, white supremacy and naziism as the doctrines directly responsible for this tragedy. And I've called trump a racist.

I represent your arguments honestly, you should do the same for me.

If you really think so, I've lost all faith in your ability to reason.



It's certainly implied that you pin this on collectivism, like you are doing right now. This is just disingenuous cheeckyness. You jyst implied collectivism would justify this sort of killing and then said you condemn all forms of collectivism, jusy because you didn't explicitly say "I blame all collectivism for this" doesn't mean you didn't logically imply it by pairing those two statements together.

Get off your high horse and reexamine your principles.


I read some of this and that about the culprit, but I never read too much into screwed up killer cunts.
I saw the video, if anyone wanna talk about that in spoilers.

non-left-washed implies far-right-washed and downright retarded?


Holy shit dude keep it uppppppp

Why are you 'centrist' right-wingers so pathetically predicatable


Quite the thread.


>non-left-washed implies far-right-washed and downright retarded?

I think he's being sarcastic about what some people seem to considered "left washed" and implicitly mocking that.


okay. I'm inclined to Simply say the same to you at that point. It's not exactly a productive item, nor is it one I'm going to particularly care about either.
I certainly am not about to lose any sleep because of it

I am not sure if you're particular issue. It seems to be to be an objective fact that collectivists do not value individual rights, as individual rights are founded off of the idea of individualism, not to collectivism. Collectivism inherently works for the greater good, not be individual rights.

and, as to the idea of me blaming collectivism, I wouldn't consider it blaming 2.2 a, say, carnivorous animal that is eating another, and say it is in its nature.


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Political threads tend to take a turn like this if people go Anon to cause mischief.


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Who do you suspect the anons might be?


Just so long as you don't pin it on all anons. Sure, these particular ones are bothersome, but, not all anons are like that
Some of my best discussions have been with anonymous posters.


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#NotAllAnons right


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I'm not even going to bother.

Hope Mosques can keep florishing elsewhere. And that community keeps strong.



How can you be so lacking in self awareness? You criticize others for trying to politicize this by pinning this on right wing ideology, when you are literally pinning this on "collectivism" (nuance be damned), using this thread just to be sanctimonious.

Honestly, you're full of crap and I am generally pretty damn sick of you and your self-satisfying behavior in any thread on a political topic. I'm genuinely dissapointed with moony creating this thread without considering that you'd be hanging around here.


I mean I'm not afraid to attribute these posts to me.

It's me

Also how is this 'mischief'

Just because you don't agree with it? Give me a break.

All I was here to suggest was that we should examine our own views and condemn the ideas behind this attack.

I have no problem with the reasonable parts of the right.


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You cant not make threads just because theres a chance some asshole will come in and ruin them (note: not saying Noonim is an asshole). If that were the case no one would make any sort of threads ever.


white nationalism isn't an issue, you can trust me, the redpill gang. Now let's all calm down and go watch some Turning Point and Praeger U videos


dude, I was just about to suggest the same


Guys, 49 people died. Check your priorities and make sure whatever you are saying is really worth it. I can't really hold anyone accountable right now, I'm under a strict deadline at work, but it's really not that hard to argue with a degree of civility.

I'm gonna check back in a little bit and maybe lock the thread if it looks too hostile.


Oh, now I think I can see your confusion.
I don't condemn collectivists at all for this action. I condemn the individual responsible for this particular action.

Where I condemn collectivists is in the pursuit of the greater good over the individual. I guess I should have made that a little bit more clear. What I'm talking about here is not the particular circumstance, as much as the particular ideals.
This particular action is nobody other than the individual who did it as fault. At least as far as I'm concerned.



I mean, if you have good reason given past occurrences to expect that the subject matter would attract assholes ...


What posts were those, though? Doesn't really do much when you just simply say that, without making it clear which of the two anons you are. I assume there's only two anons, it's hard to tell, of course.


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> hostile

Did you know in Mosques they serve dates instead of hosties?


I thought this is why we had Moony complaining about political threats in the past.

Turns out people have very strong beliefs when it comes to politics, and tragedies tend to bring out the worst of that.



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I have some suspicions, but I'll keep them to myself. I don't want to publicly slander someone innocent in case I'm wrong.


Well, one of them is just making it way too obvious.


I wish the best to the families of the people who lost their lives in this tragedy.


I apologise, I was just speaking in general. Not specifically at you. Definitely the other one though.

I do condemn the ideas behind this attack. I don't have to re-examine my own views to do that.

My political views are unchanged, because they never aligned with those ideas to begin with. So I still support the right-wing and Trump.


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Is "fascism is bad" too hostile?


If so, I'll gladly take the ban.



That's a cop out. You so clearly use this thread to engage in all this whataboutism (including your "what about islam" post) condescend to people who are "less principled" than you.

You blame the individual but imply his choice was informed by a collectivist ideology ... and yet you criticize and make accusations about Rose for blaming this individuals choice on how he was informed by a right-wing ideology.

You are full of crap.


Well, you are the more tame one, at least, though I admit I still find myself a tad disappointed.


It's cool, dude, you seem like you genuinely believe the things you say and have some kind of good intention.

>I do condemn the ideas behind this attack. I don't have to re-examine my own views to do that.

Condemming the ideas is good. Putting effort into recognizing how we might be contributing to them, or how we could stop them spreading is ideal.

I urge you to think critically of what trump actually is, because I don't feel like trying to convince you, but I recognize this sounds like religious evangelicism to you.

I'm just as mad and opinioned as the other anon, I just don't think it serves any purpose to yell at you about it until we agree about the principal facts of the reality we live in that are required to be shared for us to even have the discussion.


I don't even know this guy's particular ideology. Other than somebody said he was an Eco fascist, somewhere in one of the videos I've watched on the subject.
I'm not entirely sure if he's a collectivist or not, but, regardless, like I said, his actions are his own. If you think that's a cop-out, that's your business. I don't answer to you, you aren't my mother, I don't really care what you think. Because at the end of the day, you can think whatever you like. It doesn't make it true.

there's at least one poster who definitely does need to get some kind of stuff going on. I mean, I know I was a bit rude to start with, but, there is a line, and I'm pretty sure that one and on definitely crossed it. That's largely why I ended up reporting it for that matter.


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>gets mad about bias
>gets upset when people aren't principled
>reports people that call him out for it

holy shit just ban me, you can keep this loser.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)


that is definitely an understandable position to take. I can't really fault you for that, even if I'll definitely disagree on your particular perspective of reality.


It's more to do with blatant violations of the rules. frankly it's more of the reason why I rather dislike that this thread was made in the first place.


Wow this escalated quickly. This really got out of hand fast.


Thorax: Dont be hostile or overly rude
This thread: >:3


From my perspective locking it would likely have been the ideal response.


I guess you wish is my command. I don't get why otherwise chill people lose their shit in politics threads.

Sometimes I get caught up in some kinds of unrealistically optimistic ideas of how people will behave :/


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Yeah wouldnt it be fuckin nice.



Does it matter to you?  You seem to consider all "collectivst" ideologies to be the same, like the details don't matter, including whether or not the ideology is even purely collectivist or only partially collectivist or if it only prioritizes one specific set of collective interest. You have so often treated all sorts of ideologies as fitting entirely within this overly simplistic, unnuanced, black'n'white framework of invididualism vs collectivism. You end up treating the distinctions as unimportant. Then you have directly stated in the past and implied many times before that you can judge a person by their ideology or culture implying that thise values inform their actions, but cop-out by saying you judge individuals by their choices. But if you judge people based on how their culture or ideology informs there action, then does that distinction even matter? You're still effectively judging people as if they are not individuals.

So when you go on to look down on people for "not examining their principles" you really come off as an arrogant and sanctimonious hypocrite. One who goes on and on about being an individualist but who doesn't act like one. Frankly, I am sick of it and I think you could really use some self-awareness abd maybe a little humility. Cause seeing you use this thread to just act superior while making paranoid accusations of others while patting yourself on the back for "being more principled" is really damn insulting.


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Ah, and here I thought Thorax finally locked the thread.

I'm not entirely sure I follow, to be perfectly honest, but, from what I'm getting, I think it's simply respond with, I try not to judge people based on anything other than what they choose to do, what they say, that type of deal. Group affiliations aren't always accurate to one's actual beliefs. so, for the most part, I'm making an attempt to judge people based on their actual characteristics, as opposed to Simply their grouping.
you can do that, and, it's not exactly shocking when people do, but, I personally consider it rather unideal. I don't really mean to do it, if I do. Like I said, it's something I try to avoid.

is that the only thing you think I do wrong when it comes to individualism? I'm not entirely sure how much of my particular beliefs you actually know, to be entirely honest. I don't know that you and I interact really enough, and for that matter, freely enough, give him the site stance on politics, for you to have a particular understanding of my politics so well as to make this kind of judgment.
truthfully I have absolutely no idea what you will have based this on. I'm kind of just assuming whatever you say I've done is true, though, to be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure it is.


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i am sorry i inflicted this thread upon all of you. Let us try to be friendly. i think, i phrased the OP badly.

Our love, prayers, and hopes, to our friends in New Zealand.

i hope we can stand together and wish them well together with a full heart


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You did nothing wrong.
I'll leave it at that or else get myself banned.

But yes that.


Out of curiosity, why did you say that it would affect us more than most?


i was told, an imageboard or chan was involved in a big way, and though we distance ourselves, we are nonetheless a crab in that same bucket, so to speak


Ah. Fair enough. That does seem like grounds to worry about potential censorship.


I think violence, or at the very least some form of hostility, is largely an inevitable part of life. An image board being "responsible" doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, the responsible parties are the individual and the people who drove them into these horrible actions. We can't just constantly shove responsibility onto circumstance, society, or culture. Ultimately this person made their own choice. Yes those other larger factors may have influenced the individual, but moaning over "society" doesn't strike me as all that productive.

If he didn't post on social media, he'd probably have just done it. If anything, it's good to have advanced notice, because it lets us prepare countermeasures. A lot better than being completely without notice when the attack happens, yea? It's a lot better to formulate productive countermeasures than to groan about culture, society, or the internet. In this case, religious organizations and schools are popular targets, so why not post a few police officers there? Be a lot better than skulking around speed traps, although that could just be an American thing. You get the idea though. Down to earth, practical responses are going to do us better than political grandstanding, scapegoating, or moaning about things too big to realistcally affect.

Or if we do want to crone about society, we could talk about how the west has become so puritanical and politically aggressive that it's isolating people with potentially rather reasonable concerns into a corner and right into radicalization. If we want to stop this, we need to be more open minded and supportive, and it wouod certainly help if mental health institutions were at all helpful or usable. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c


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I read some of the thread, but not all of it.  Politics always seems to get threads locked eventually.  Suppose it's because political topics are controversial and emotional, and eventually that wears down civility.  I do think it's good not to get over-worried about terrorism -- the goal of a terrorist, after all, is to cause fear, and there are many more probable things we will die from than terrorism.  But if discussion helps understand what's happening, it is good.  8chan was mentioned in the wikipedia article, I see, and this is an image board.


8chan was.  They're already making back up plans if they get taken down.  


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i am worried a little bit this might splash back to us somehow, even though we work hard to distance ourselves from the chan circuit, generally speaking


Anymore you just never know, especially this people will look for any scapegoat possible.  8chan is in full on damage control mode, they have the chan on the deep web too, there's even a step beyond that.

I look at it this way, we may see a return of the old web, inacessable to most.  Way before my time, one of my cousins ran a bbs board way back in the 90s, I look at the deepweb as a possible return to that.  Something that really gets me, people forget the internet is still the wild west, it's not changing, that and it really isn't a nice place.  People are dumb.


I doubt it. There's a lot of imageboards out there, and ponyville is pretty obscure compared to 8chan, 4Chan, or 2Chan. I very much doubt this is going to turn into some image board massacre.

I'd almost welcome it. I'd need to learn a lot of new things, but that's a reasonable price to pay for avoiding oversensitive, drama-loving normies.


To be fair, it never really left, it's just that people migrated to clearne.  IRC, deep web, hell all the old school stuff is still out there, thing is most people are lazy hence why it's still like it used to be way back when, sorta.


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Much similar violence, I think, directly involves the internet. There is a perceptive gap between mainstream "geo" culture and cyber culture, which is glossed over under the blanket term "mental health". The kinds of communities of "mind" that flourish and that have their own peculiar psycho-dynamics and desiderata on the web, represent a new frontier and offer new insights into human nature, but this is either not understood or is considered to be an aberration by traditional, centralized cultures; in turn, the monotonous subjectivity of cyberspace acts like a high-pitched drug for those who become immersed in a "second life" online; who, like Raskolnikov, crave to test the limits of a cerebral, self-immersed existence (there is also a compensatory tendency toward objectivity fascination). Conventional measures such as gun control and social services will not probably not suffice to stymie this sort of "inexplicable" crime.  


1 upvote

I've definitely been moving into this  compensatory territory you describe, but idk if I'd call it fascination.


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Just hypothetically speaking, are we not allowed to do things the shooter wanted? Like I assume at some point -something- overlaps between just about everyone and this shooter. If he'd written "You know, I think we should really lower taxes." in his manifesto, no one would be all "Oh, shit, we can't lower taxes now, gotta raise those taxes to really stick it to the shooter."

And that's all assuming that what he wrote in his manifesto is stuff he -actually- wants, and not just stuff he wants associated with a mass murderer to discredit the ideas. I've got no reason to believe the guy is stupid, I'm sure he knows exactly how people would react to his manifesto, and indeed, anything associated with him. It would've been trivial to write things with that in mind.

It's entirely fair to say "Civil war is a bad idea, we should try to get along." but there also comes a time where people are shooting at you and civil war isn't a philosophical question anymore, it's just what's currently happening, and if you don't acknowledge there's a war going on...then you're going to lose the war.

I think at the very least the current climate could be considered a cold war. There are two sides here, albeit not cleanly defined sides, and both of them think the other is a severe threat to their way of life. Open hostilities are rare, though clearly not out of the question, 'cause 50 people just died, and it's not the first time either side has resorted to violence. There aren't quite enough people on either side willing to risk their lives for things yet, again, just a few isolated incidents like this Christchurch group, but it's to the point that you should at least be prepared to defend yourself and have people on the watchtowers looking for anyone who might be aggressive.


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Ok, I understand better.

Sounds accurate.  Mainstream responses probably push people deeper into these second lives.  It will be described as mental illness, yes.  Part of me feels this is unfair to the mentally ill generally, but I respect the humans and their writing about mental illnesses, I guess.

>be prepared to defend yourself and have people on the watchtowers looking for anyone who might be aggressive.

Your sense of the threat is greater than mine, but I confess it's really hard to gauge these sorts of things.  I see you feel threatened by an opponent, although not a well defined one.  Hmm...I've never considered myself especially gifted in James Bond type stuff.  I hope I'm not in a war.


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I'm probably a bit paranoid, honestly, but I do think it's better to be on guard if it doesn't have a hefty cost.  It's why we have drills for shooters and whatnot.


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Yeah, we had to watch a 15-minute video on the computer.  "Don't taunt the shooter."  "Don't be a hero."


When I say we shouldn't do what the shooter wants, I'm talking more the accelerationism aspect.
But, yeah, I'm not against everyone taking measures to defend themselves, provided it's only defense.
Problem is, as the shooter desired, there's likely going to be a sharp reaction from government, and much of that'll likely end up restricting people's ability to defend themselves, you ask me.

My problem is, I see this as a guarantee for a stronger push for censorship, disarmament, that sort of thing.
And, of course, that isn't defense.


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> "Don't taunt the shooter."  "Don't be a hero."
This seems to be the sort of thing that results in more deaths during shootings. Shit like how everyone hides under their desks, stays in the rooms waiting for a shooter to come.
Never understood the logic.
I guess I'm more inclined to encourage spiteful resistance, just by my character, though. I'd rather see training for students going full Roman phalanx mode, charging shooters with kevlar-reinforced desks. But, admittedly, that might be a tad crazy.


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i think this shows that the internet has more influence on us than we realize, and that it is a powerful technology that must be used carefully and wisely for the benefit of everypony...

people should carefully consider what types of media they allow into their mind, as everything exerts an influence and will stay with you for a long time, influencing your actions - even if on a subconscious level

due to the internet (unlike in the past) even radical ideas have an equal platform for discussion with manestream ideas that have existed and deeply influenced society and culture for centuries. centuries of development cannot be instantly undone, but some people (those who lack societal awareness), fail to realize this in their ardor for change, and decide to go it alone. the result, however, of going it alone and ignoring all the good things that the current system has brought us, is typically an act of violence and destruction. and to what end? if one ignores all the good in society as it is now, then how can they expect that the future they create through their destruction to be any better? after their brief elation at destroying what they perceive to be causing all the problems, will they not just continue with their hatred towards another idea or group?

hatred and anger is a disease which poisons the heart and does nothing to create, can only destroy, and when exercised without restraint and respect (seeing their point of view as just as valid) to the idea or person in question, is of no value or use at all. it is a monster which consumes all who attempt to wield it - even those who would use it for good. a poison, it should be avoided by all, as one runs from a poisonous snake.

in the context of the shooting, this could have been avoided had the person realized the emotions that browsing internet hate was cultivating in him. anything that causes anger or hatred should a) not be engaged with further, b) should be analyzed to see if the cause can be identified and dealt with, and c) if it can't be analyzed at this time, then you should at least put yourself in a positive environment in which it doesn't grow any further.

if people can't get their shit together, we're just going to see more gun control (guns in and of themselves not being the biggest problem right now), more internet spying and censorship, and generally more government involvement in people's lives. and though obviously not ideal, all of this might not be a bad thing if it can help prevent stuff like this from happening in the future.

tldr; people need to get their shit together and figure out how to harmony and friendship or somebody else is going to do it for them


Problem is, this guy was an accelerationist who desired more gun control and more censorship, in order to get more guys like him, frankly.
Turns out, being split into specific camps after rampant censorship leads to people only talking to likeminded people, further radicalizing themselves.
In this case, the shooter seems to be one of them super heavily nihilistic black pill types, and threw every single odd reference he could think of in an effort to get the system to do what he wanted. And, honestly, seems like it's going to work, unfortunately.


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>Never understood the logic.
Well, I'm not smart in James Bond type stuff, so I won't try to judge.  Unless maybe it involves computers, then I might talk.

>censorship leads to people only talking to likeminded people

I've been experimenting with getting off the mainstream social media sites, and one of the issues is, when you leave the censored areas you run into the Neo-Nazi's.  I do see they have to concentrate on the edges, which probably has a distilling effect.



>I'd rather see training for students going full Roman phalanx mode, charging shooters with kevlar-reinforced desks. But, admittedly, that might be a tad crazy.

good idea! that would be fun and way better than having places of learning filled with teachers with weapons...

that or there should be loaded guns scattered throughout the school in locked cases that can only be opened when a certain number of selected students insert their keys into the case to open it, at which point the school shooter alarm will sound and the anti-shooter nanobot injection which all students are required to receive upon entering school (kind of like immunizations) will activate and immobilize the shooter's body... yes...


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Yeah, I think it comes down to many things.  Some say we might station soldiers -- retired veterans perhaps -- at the schools.  I work at a store, so perhaps those too.  But you can do the math based on some wage, as there are hundreds of thousands of school buildings, and ask if it's worth it.

Schools have been installing entry control systems and cameras.  Most small businesses have that stuff already.  The electronics are relatively cheap, however they aren't offensive and won't keep someone willing to break glass out in most cases.


>In my case I would like to watch that livestream to hear his messages and look how behaves.
cold.  calculated.  hard to believe it's real.


too much nonsense in this thread to individually respond to...

People pushing guilt by association narratives can take their narratives and shove it.

I'm still going to watch Pewdiepie.
I still think Remove Kebab is hilarious.

If you think that means I agree with this guy's perspectives on anything, then you have some sort of mental deficiency.  I'm not going to let you shame me out of the things I enjoy, and I'm not going to let the shooter achieve his objectives by being shamed out of the things I enjoy.  Fuck off with these BS non-arguments.

edit:  Also note that I'm not even a conservative, so you can take your "anyone I disagree with is a white nationalist / Nazi" rhetoric and shove that, too.

edit 2:  >>928506  Exactly.  I'm not going to let a shooting 12,000 miles away determine what positions I'm allowed to have, or what I'm allowed to enjoy.

P.s. Did you hear about the murder of 46 Christian villagers in Anguwan Gamu, Nigeria, by Muslim terrorists just 5 days ago?  Of course no one did.  No one cares because it doesn't fit the narrative.

All murder is bad.  You don't get bonus points for your political objectives based on the race/religion of the people who died.


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>My problem is, I see this as a guarantee for a stronger push for censorship, disarmament, that sort of thing.

Almost definitely.  I don't know if it'll happen, but people are going to want it.  New Zealand has similar gun rights to America, albeit with far fewer deaths...until now.  This one day eclipses what usually amounts to their annual count of gun deaths.  And like I said, there's no reason to believe the shooter wasn't aware this would be the reaction.


We do have a guard on site in case we need him, not sure if he's a retired veteran soldier or not.  We've been stepping up cameras lately, too.


Blaming Pewdiepie for this is absurd.  The amount of random stuff they threw out both during the shooting and in the guy's manifesto implicates half the world.  It should largely be ignored.


>P.s. Did you hear about the murder of 46 Christian villagers in Anguwan Gamu, Nigeria, by Muslim terrorists just 5 days ago?  Of course no one did.  No one cares because it doesn't fit the narrative.
IMO that's probably not because of who died. It's probably because of where it happened.


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I can't recall any other pressing news issues five days ago.


Uh, did you misread "where" as "when"? Cuz I didn't say "when". I said "where".


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No, I got that, I just mean that if there was literally nothing else to post then I don't think the "where" is all that vital a question.


The point of >>928861 is that we didn't hear about the thing in Nigeria because it was Muslims killing Christians.

My point is that we do hear about Muslims killing people...when it happens in France!

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