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 No.842070[Last 50 Posts]

File: 1538960278340.png (483.39 KB, 1280x957, 1280:957, fs_princess.png) ImgOps Google

Enforcement of rules or forcing submission by/to respectable institutions is the most important thing, a moral duty that must supersede all else.  Sometimes I am good about seeing rules enforced exactly, but I waver by mood, the details of the enforcements, and I dare say, even my relationship with the potential subject of punishment.  How do other ponies maintain a static posture as a good pony that always glories in enforcements?

 No.842072

row, row, fight the power!

 No.842075

I don't worry about it that much.

 No.842078

File: 1538961021821.png (314.97 KB, 936x1024, 117:128, fs_33.png) ImgOps Google

>>842072
I don't think I understand.

>>842075
Probably you are blessed with automatic impulses for respect and obedience.  Be thankful, then, good Anonymous pony.

 No.842081

>>842078
"Row, RoW! Fight the Powa!" is actually a reference to the anime "Gurren Lagann". "Fight the Power" in general is a term used to describe rebellion against authority.

 No.842082

File: 1538961478061.png (24.29 KB, 261x229, 261:229, Let's Ride.png) ImgOps Google

I'm not a fan of rules or submission.

 No.842084

>>842078
maybe.

Do you think don't?

 No.842085

File: 1538961925099.jpeg (409.21 KB, 700x769, 700:769, 1769048__safe_artist-colo….jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>842081
Rebellion against authority needs punishment.  I know about that.

>>842082
Hmm...OK, I'll help.  Groups create authorities because individuals are not good enough to be moral on their own.  Authorities then create rules that are better than any individual judgement and enforce those rules in ways that are better than any individual action.  That's why no subject is 'above the rules,' and rules are more important than anything for the subjects of authority.

 No.842086

File: 1538962192045.png (2.15 MB, 3000x2000, 3:2, sad3.png) ImgOps Google

>>842070

a lost pony doesn't really know much about staying out of trouble even when he tries his best, sadly.

 No.842087

File: 1538962257709.jpeg (259.24 KB, 920x982, 460:491, 1417856__safe_artist-colo….jpeg) ImgOps Google

I don't

I do no respect authorities or institutions as an intrinsically moral good at all. They are something I see as, at best, a matter of pragmatism and a means to a the ends to certain consequences, mostly the consequences of having a well ordered, and just society. And when those authorities and institution are not bringing about those ends, then they should be replaced.  

I do not believe obedience to an authority can be a moral end into and of itself, nor do I believe being moral or ethical is really just a form of obedience. Morals cannot derive from an authority and be either absolute or based on something as arbitrary as the whims of the authority figure. The only moral that are at all acceptable as moral ends into and of themselves to me are those that transcend the will of any and all authorities, independent of that authorities will or command. If God was real and one day came down and told everyone that it was okay to eat babies, then I would say that is evidence that God is wrong, it wouldn't change the fact that eating babies is wrong.

 No.842088

File: 1538962361204.png (24.12 KB, 254x249, 254:249, Please.png) ImgOps Google

>>842085

I think I disagree with that.  Individuals create authorities in order to control people to better serve their unique desires.  Their rules are meant only to benefit the specific people that created the authority, by exploiting the rest of the group.

 No.842089

File: 1538962789648.png (1.5 MB, 2500x2500, 1:1, 772365.png) ImgOps Google

Ah. It would be complicated for me. My personal moral code forbids glorification.

 No.842090

relevant video

 No.842092

>>842070
>Enforcement of rules or forcing submission by/to respectable institutions is the most important thing, a moral duty that must supersede all else.
Counterexample: MLK's civil disobedience campaign was morally righteous.

 No.842097

>>842089
Your personal moral code forbids glorification?

 No.842110

File: 1538969834283.png (132.39 KB, 540x540, 1:1, tumblr_p56xrw6vYR1w6vs9wo2….png) ImgOps Google

>>842090
As a tangent to this, this wonderful essay by Henry David Thoreau

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper2/thoreau/civil.html

 No.842112

File: 1538970835515.gif (198.24 KB, 500x500, 1:1, silly4.gif) ImgOps Google

>>842110
Thoreau is just a neet telling us to quit working for our car cuz he has free family-owned land to live on instead of having to work to live like normal wage slaves.

 No.842115

File: 1538971269847.png (397.51 KB, 800x574, 400:287, wave.png) ImgOps Google

>>842112
I think he's a tiny bit more than that, lol.

 No.842120

>>842085
Not always. What if the authority is unjust or corrupt?

 No.842121

File: 1538973244989.png (155.13 KB, 899x888, 899:888, thinking1.png) ImgOps Google

>>842115

Why thats like saying there's more to a lost pony than sexualized shitposting.

Nopony believes that kinda tripe.

 No.842144

File: 1538977501348.png (6.13 KB, 300x220, 15:11, journal_buddy___sleeping_f….png) ImgOps Google

>>842121
So hard on yourself. Relax.

 No.842165

File: 1538981983405.png (421.48 KB, 1024x937, 1024:937, galahappy3.png) ImgOps Google

>>842144
>hard on yourself

I'm not sposed to get too sexually charged anymore are you trying to get me in trouble?  :pinkie1:

I was implying that yes, Rose is correct there is more to Thoreau than what i said but, there is also what i said.


How you doing Ella?  Feeling better?


Edit:  your animation doesnt

 No.842168

>>842165
The animation is a lie.

Some what better, going to bed now though :aj7:

 No.842169

>>842168
Have a good night!

 No.842177

File: 1538988250530.png (729.16 KB, 545x619, 545:619, Dredd1a.png) ImgOps Google

>>842070
I've not got any position which requires enforcement of the rules.
However, if I was, I'd keep set on proper paths via the justification of that rules must be applied to everyone, evenly, regardless of who they are, else it isn't just.

But, then, I'm someone who likes Judge Dredd. So what do I know?

 No.842178

>>842085
>>842088
It's my stance that individuals create authorities because mob justice and vigilantism often end up lynching the innocent, thereby resulting in injustice.

 No.842197

File: 1539005781212.png (664.47 KB, 1280x906, 640:453, fs_clouds.png) ImgOps Google

>>842086
Staying out of trouble is good, but it's even better to trust the consequences of trouble -- the punishments.  Trouble makes authorities possible since if everyone behaved there'd be no enforcements, and even if you don't think so, you're helping make things better.  :)

>>842087
>I do no respect authorities or institutions as an intrinsically moral good at all.

Authorities can do things not authorized to non-authorities, like breaking into houses of suspects of crime, putting people in jail, redistributing wealth, making war.  How would you explain these rights if not because authorities are morally superior?

>the consequences of having a well ordered, and just society.

That's good, yes.

>then they should be replaced.

I think the authority usually decides the proper order, so both can be so.

>[morals] those that transcend the will of any and all authorities,

Is there a better...measure...of these morals than looking to authorities?

(OK, must sleep now.  I know there are more posts, will reply later.)

 No.842201

File: 1539012640868.png (1.15 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100405.png) ImgOps Google

I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to take these posts seriously or not.

 No.842203

>>842201
Never take anything Flower says seriously.

 No.842204

File: 1539017207271.png (1.1 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100257.png) ImgOps Google

>>842203
Is he like... RPing as an AI or something?

I'm just really confused.

 No.842206

>>842204
Flower prefers female pronouns.

Flower has said that she has a litany of mental illnesses, and does not consider herself part of the human race. She's explained her reasoning for this, but it only make sense to her. As a result she claims not to understand and misunderstands many aspects of human society. I'm not sure how much of this is genuine, or being played up for comedy, but that's the basics of it.

 No.842207

File: 1539018950019.png (1.11 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100316.png) ImgOps Google

>>842206
Fair enough. I just kind of wasn't sure what was going on.

 No.842208

>>842207
That's why I told you! I wouldn't expect someone to guess all that insanity! I had the same questions when I first encountered Flower.

 No.842216

File: 1539022915138.gif (252.56 KB, 720x405, 16:9, 43843__safe_twilight spark….gif) ImgOps Google

>>842197
>Authorities can do things not authorized to non-authorities, like breaking into houses of suspects of crime, putting people in jail, redistributing wealth, making war.  How would you explain these rights if not because authorities are morally superior?

Because they are rights that have been decided are most neccesary for the authority to be able to do it's job. It doesn't have to do with fundamental moral superiority of the authority, it has to do with necessity.  

Given that it is perfectly possible for an authority to abuse those very powers that implies the authority is subservient to higher moral principles.

>I think the authority usually decides the proper order, so both can be so.

On the contrary, the authority only attempts to realize it. The consequences of the authorities actions determines what an orderly and functional society is. If the authority decrees certain things and that leads to a just and fair society, it's not just and fair simply because the authority decrees it to be so. The authorities and institutions absolutely can fail, their choices can lead to an unjust and unfair society that only hurts those living in it, and the authorties in those situations cannot just declare the situation to actually be fair and just.

>Is there a better...measure...of these morals than looking to authorities?

Absolutely, the moral value of an action can be measured in the effects they have on people in the real world. Effects that no authority has any power to change.

 No.842226

File: 1539029235249.jpg (112.6 KB, 1009x632, 1009:632, 31353__safe_artist-colon-k….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>842088
That would result in a negative view of the project of civilization.  I consider myself a humanist, so I try to stay positive about human activity.

>>842089
Hmm...well I think glory is best for authorities, but acceptance is sufficient.

 No.842271

File: 1539035324262.jpg (491.7 KB, 1000x1349, 1000:1349, pinkywatercolor.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>842201

a lost pony suspects they are most serious but phrased in the devil's advocate to acquire assistance from this community in learning the balance between governance and liberty.

As discussed by Andrea in >>842216

>>842226
>humanist

Either you do not believe your stated hypothesis about morality as dictated by authority, or one of us does not fully grasp what that word means.

>>842206
While I believe I do understand Flower's rationale, a lost pony thanks you for keeping your view on her mental fitness to an absolute minimum.  It really makes me uncomfortable, mr. Manley.

 No.842342

File: 1539040624807.jpg (287.89 KB, 1280x971, 1280:971, mlk.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>842090
>>842092
I think respectful ponies will agree that if there was a time for civil disobedience (which I do not confirm), it is now over.  The government is not racist (if it ever was) and any residual issues can be resolved by polite participation in the democratic process.

 No.842365

File: 1539042436027.jpg (10.45 KB, 236x236, 1:1, pinkyglasses.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>842342

My dear Flower,

You post Dr. King Jr, did youknow he was lecturing not just about racism but about the disparity of wealth in this country?  And that the disparity between the rich and the poor has bever been more critical than it is right now?


Meanwhile the issue of racism is far from resolved, in fact there is a combined crises between these issue as the disparity of wealth among minorities is worse than its every been.

I believe the time for participation in the democratic process is now, as you say, and that protest is as much a part of that process as it's ever been.

I am curious why, if you feel that protest and civil disobedience, in particular as envisioned and practiced Dr. King was proper then, why you think it is not proper now.

 No.842403

File: 1539045916860.png (866.7 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, thrown.png) ImgOps Google

>>842110
>I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"

A fine motto, but rejected by the reality of people choosing government, not just once but hundreds of times throughout the world.

>Let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect

American government allows some limited input by citizens, such as voting.  It certainly does not ask to have any of its fundamental elements questioned for it knows itself to be fundamentally respectful, at least in the eyes of good humans.  Criminals, unbalanced, and enemies, of course, can't be accounted for.

>Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice.

Oh, my.  This may be an attitude appropriate to other kinds, possibly even humans in pre-history, but today's humans have clearly came out in favor of states, law, power, and authoritarian justice.

 No.842404

>>842342
Everything you just said is completely wrong.

 No.842427

File: 1539050023831.png (421.48 KB, 1024x937, 1024:937, galahappy3.png) ImgOps Google

>>842404
"You're wrong" isn't a very good argument.

>>842403
You didn't rebut my >>842365

 No.842454

File: 1539053464110.png (40.34 KB, 385x312, 385:312, Smiles.png) ImgOps Google

>>842226
>That would result in a negative view of the project of civilization.  I consider myself a humanist, so I try to stay positive about human activity.

Yeah, we just disagree on that one, I guess.

 No.842455

>>842427
I'm not allowed to argue about it until January!

 No.842698

>>842342
What about in places like venezuela, where there's still great political turmoil?

>>842403
It's an old essay, lol

it has to be read with the context in mind and with a bit of grace

 No.842699

File: 1539070632848.png (340.75 KB, 800x800, 1:1, bestest_friends_ever_by_wh….png) ImgOps Google

>>842455
>>842427
He's got you there, dude

 No.842719

File: 1539079247454.gif (84.65 KB, 350x225, 14:9, happy26.gif) ImgOps Google

>>842699
He's not allowed to get me until after January aparently.

Hey wait a minute, i thought all bans were reset with the new rules.

Doesn't that also reset Manley's timer?

 No.842731

File: 1539085409327.jpg (184.93 KB, 555x625, 111:125, 012.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Eh, I go with what feels right. Rules are only important if it's to the betterment of most anyway.

>>842089
Way to glorify your moral code there buddy lel

 No.842736


 No.842795

File: 1539091001136.jpeg (44.98 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, fs_33.jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>842112
True.  Thoeau's advice is probably better for middle class than the poor who live closer to necessity.

>>842120
Well, in cases where people in mass stop respecting the authority and rebel, I guess that's OK.  In America we are no longer subjects to the British crown.  Otherwise, through, the humans seem to feel individual opinions shouldn't matter much when it comes to law enforcement.  At least, I expect some portion of those sitting in jail believe they've been done an injustice, but that does not set them free.

>>842121
Just have to write a book.  Especially if there's no one else who writes a book about their time on ponyville, then 100 years from now, the spin is all yours.

(Did you get someone upset?)

>>842177

>I'd keep set on proper paths via the justification of that rules must be applied to everyone, evenly, regardless of who they are, else it isn't just.

Sometimes that's the idea.  I think it's mostly the idea in America.  Some states exempt the leaders from following rules, and in respecting all possible systems, I like to focus more on enforcements than rules.  And then there's the matter of selective enforcement.  But I think you have a good start.  :)

>>842178
Oh, yes.  A particular case where the authority is more correct than the individual or small group.

 No.843008

>>842736
Eeew not pony version
Thanks!

>>842795
Nopony likes a lost pony's writing.  Make somepony upset?  Almost certainly, haha.

 No.843137

File: 1539120103666.gif (14.95 KB, 325x360, 65:72, moral.gif) ImgOps Google

>>842070

The problems you bring up are some of the flaws in your moral level of thinking. The solution, of course, is to identify and embrace the positive aspects, while releasing the negative, which brings you up to Level 5 or 6 and better equips you to deal with more advanced moral problems and nuances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

 No.843234

File: 1539127257146.png (574.78 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, fs_door.png) ImgOps Google

>>842216
>Because they are rights that have been decided are most neccesary for the authority to be able to do it's job. It doesn't have to do with fundamental moral superiority of the authority, it has to do with necessity.  

Perhaps.  If keeping a store clean were a goal, I suppose a rule might be to sweep every night.  Then the rule can be seen as a means to an end, but were the employee to clean in some other way, even if the result were superior, they would still be justly punished for not following the rules.  So if there are...necessities...they won't matter to subjects.  Rules subservient to a higher goal would be more like guidelines, I think, and that seems to me to be another system -- not really an authority system, or at least not the one I usually think about when there are rules.

>>842365

>And that the disparity between the rich and the poor has bever been more critical than it is right now?

More skills are possible and the differential grows, yes.  And racism is judgements of all members of a race, but people choose to acquire skills, you can't force it.

>I am curious why, if you feel that protest and civil disobedience, in particular as envisioned and practiced Dr. King was proper then, why you think it is not proper now.

Human authorities had to put Dr. King in jail.  That probably means something improper happened.  Dr. King's ambition was good, but you won't get me to advocate criminal behavior (for the humans).

Look at: "All content that is illegal under the law of the United States is expressly and absolutely prohibited on Ponyville.us;"

Now, I suppose it does not forbid advocating criminal behavior, but it certainly forbids any civil disobedience in posts on this site.

>>842698
>What about in places like venezuela, where there's still great political turmoil?

I ask...is there a strong system of enforcement?  I'm not to judge the system itself, but if the humans feel they've got the system of justice they need, I agree.  I don't know much about Venezuela, though, so don't know.

>>843137
Conventional State 4 appears correct for humans.  Post conventional humans likely need punishment to drive them back to the proper stage.  It's OK, though.  They have systems for that.  :)

 No.843268

>>843234
>Look at: "All content that is illegal under the law of the United States is expressly and absolutely prohibited on Ponyville.us;"
>Now, I suppose it does not forbid advocating criminal behavior, but it certainly forbids any civil disobedience in posts on this site.
Lol, you left out the part that "illegal content" basically means child porn and that this provision is primarily a CYA for the site.
And furthermore it doesn't even forbid all civil disobedience.  E.g., if I were to post information classified SECRET here on the site, I'd be thrown in prison, but the site might be able to continue to host it lawfully.  See the Pentagon Papers case.

>>843234
>I suppose a rule might be to sweep every night.  Then the rule can be seen as a means to an end, but were the employee to clean in some other way, even if the result were superior, they would still be justly punished for not following the rules.
People who think like that are the reason why the government is so damned wasteful and ineffective.  You end up spending tens of billions of dollars on fighter jets that can't fly and that have worse cybersecurity than a typical home router.

 No.843313

File: 1539139545350.jpeg (18.21 KB, 300x300, 1:1, 1199535__safe_twilight sp….jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>842342

There will never be a time when the potential need for civil disobedience or any other form of rebellion will ever be immutably satisfied. There is no such thing as an incorruptible authority, as I stated, morals transcend authorities and authority must be made to be subject to those morals, they cannot be the source of those morals if those morals are to hold any weight.

And as for the current moment in time, there is plenty of reason to engage in civil disobedience when there are forces in the various level in government seeking to cement their power through voter disenfranchisement, and crony capitalist seeking to guide economic policy in their favor via both skewed economic regulations and ill conceived deregulation.

>>843234
>they would still be justly punished for not following the rules.

justly how? Morally? Hardly, please justify it.

The reason they might be punished at all (maybe not justly) is that the point of following the rules there is so that the system as originally planed can function the way it was designed. Even if the employee had a better way of doing their job and fulfilling their role than the way the employer or supervisor commanded, disobeying that command might disrupt how other's do their job. Disobeying the command complicates the logistics of the job, which is why the employee would be reprimanded, for essentially disrupting other's employees work.

>So if there are...necessities...they won't matter to subjects.

This is a logically unjustified presumption. Of course the end(s) matter to the subjects, one's own personal ends are the primary motivation for obedience to an authority, whether or not it's because of one's belief in the need for a just society, the need to earn what one needs to survive or maybe something as egocentric as the need to avoid punishment.

>Rules subservient to a higher goal would be more like guidelines, I think, and that seems to me to be another system -- not really an authority system, or at least not the one I usually think about when there are rules.

Well, that is what all systems of rules are! They are not ends in to, and of themselves, but means to bring about or maintain certain states. The only justification for any authority figure is in their ability to make judgements about the means to bring that end about, they cannot justifiably have any authority for the sake of defining what those means are. For instance, we have traffic laws for the sake of allowing multiple people to travel by car in an orderly and coordinated way rather than in a dangerous and haphazardly way. If the authority declares that "red means stop and you must brake at the light until it turns green" they are not declaring that stopping at a stoplight is the moral thing to do.

Morals can't have any weight if they can be changed on a whim. An authoritarian meta-ethic is logically incoherent, morals cannot be absolute and derive from the commands of an authority who can reverse those commands at a later time. Morals cannot have any meaningful weight if the only reason something is good or bad is because an authority declared it as such and not because of any quality intrinsic to the thing declared as such, or else good and evil ultimately become arbitrary.

>And racism is judgements of all members of a race

Racism is prejudice and discrimination of people based on race. It's not about judging an entire race. The government was (and arguably still is) racist because of what unjustified assumptions their policies would make of all individuals based solely on their race.

>Human authorities had to put Dr. King in jail.  That probably means something improper happened.

If you mean it was improper to jail Dr. King than I agree. If you don't mean that, then this is utterly absurd.

Dr. King and his group were challenging unjust authority with the only real means they had at their disposal, given their positions as minorities in a political system where the majority agreed they deserved less rights, less access to opportunities and less access to resources simply because of the color of their skin. The authority in this case fulfilled the will of the majority (and in someway had molded the will of that majority). Segregation based on race was wrong, it's unjust and it only serves to hurt one group of people to maintain benefit to others.

>Dr. King's ambition was good, but you won't get me to advocate criminal behavior (for the humans).

So ... would you advocate criminal behavior for yourself, since you don't consider yourself human?


You know flower. I think your attempt to understand other people is fundamentally logically flawed. For a long time you have said that you conclude that humans need authorities to be happy, and in this thread you seem to point to the history of people always choosing to have authorities rule over them again and again as evidence of some natural need for humans to be subject to authorities....

... And yet you are overlooking the millenas long history of human rebellion against it's own authority. If one half of this history is evidence of something instrinsic to human nature, why is this other half not factored into this? What should it tell you about human nature than humans will rebel against their own authorities, and they will dismantle them, as they have done time and time again throughout their own written history?

 No.843535

File: 1539174153695.jpg (271.08 KB, 1138x1024, 569:512, fs_standing.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>843313
>Hardly, please justify it.
The sweeping issue, granted, is probably trivial.  But graver matters of a failure to follow procedure might end in termination.  A company can make a person leave since they are the property owner and the government will enforce this right, thus the powerful authority and justice (based on my view, anyway).

>This is a logically unjustified presumption.

I suppose a business owner can create rules that are only guidelines.  There's more freedom there.  But government doesn't seem to work that way, or at least I don't trust that if you understood a higher purpose to government, that would be enough in all cases.  I think the rules themselves matter more.  Perhaps you've had a different experience of it.

>then this is utterly absurd.
Humans seem pretty smart.  Why would they make their government do absurd things?  Why would they tolerate it?  An absurd government should be deleted.

>why is this other half not factored into this?

That is a good question.  You're not going to like the answer, but I can't make everyone happy.  I'd go as far as saying the human system seems setup to make sure you make someone upset.  Government/law/etc. is either justice or it is not, either a healthy or unhealthy institution.  Now, you don't have to take it all-or-nothing, but then I have to judge what parts are good for humans (or find someone who will), and I'm not sure I fully understand what it's like to be human, so that's not something I'll be able to do accurately.  Siding with the majority is an attempt to upset the fewest (and not get my fur singed by opposing the powerful as a bonus).

>advocate criminal behavior for yourself

Most don't notice that bit, but yes.  People have difficulty understanding me, and it just seems unlikely that lawmakers far away, who have never even met me know exactly what I need to do.  I'm not naturally rebellious, but I am intellectually open to the possibility.  Civil disobedience...for my kind.  Humans, at least the ones that feel the need to use government to keep folks obedient, will have no need, but we are different.

 No.843746

File: 1539206337762.jpg (234.77 KB, 1676x1676, 1:1, ponywearMy-Little-Pony-Gre….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>843535
>property owner can make a person leave

Actually this is absolutely untrue under the laws of the United States.  We are talking about publicly-accessible spaces such as retail establishments or public works?  These are governed by federal law from a rights perspective, explicitly forbidding the refusal of access or services to anyone based on any protected class designation, and from State laws for refusing service to anyone who is obeying the applicable laws of the location.  For example, if a grocery store decides to simply throw a shopper out of the store without cause, they will in fact be in both criminal and civil violation of several statutes and judicial doctrines.  The signs proprietors post that say "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" are in fact a statement of intent to violate those laws and can be used to established same for criminal or enhanced civil liability for taking any such action to deprive any individual of their civil rights / business rights at the subject premises.

A good question is why.  The answer is that while this country endeavors to serve the majority, it also at its fundamental founding level strives to protect the rights and privileges of ALL of its citizens.  While that implementation was deeply flawed at the time, its application has evolved over time to approach the founding principles in particular through the abolishment of slavery, the Civil Rights Act of 1965 (modified by several subsequent legislations) and the judicial doctrine of Brown v Bd. of Education establishing that racially segregated facilities are inherently unequal and therefore unconstitutional, among many other laws and doctrines that have been developed over time to better serve the ideals set down by the Founders.


>why would a government do absurd things? should be deleted

The Founders recognized, in particular in that they just broke away frm their own King by use of force, both the need to delete its future subversion (through the Second Amendment guaranteeing the right of the citizens to keep the government true to their needs by being armed potentially against its police powers) and prevent its subversion/corruption by providing checks and balances such as judicial review of legislation, impeachment of the executive representative, staggered election terms of varied length, and separation of powers.  While again its implementation has been deeply flawed from the very beginning, and its application has frequently created absurdity, the fact that such opportunities exist to try and FIX the government without needing to actually DELETE it are built into it in the first place and are largely responsible for its endurance to this point.


>special treatment for Flowerkind


It is here that I am skeptical of your intentions in this ongoing attitude regarding humans and authorities...while humans often wish to set themselves apart from seemingly absurd authority, in truth you as Flowerkind are still subject to human law and consequences until such time as you complete diligence to remove yourself from the "social contract" you were born into here.


In fact, that you are able to express your position here is an example of exercise of your rights under that authority, thereby executing your participation in and consent to be bound by the terms of the social contract that bestow those rights upon you...hence also its responsibilities.


Therefore regardless of how Flowerkind may be distinct from humans, you are in fact as subject to human authority as a lost pony is.  If you define the morality of humans by their governing authority, then you do also define the morality of a Flower by the same standards.  You cannot escape in this way.

 No.843778

File: 1539212468106.png (184.95 KB, 757x1024, 757:1024, fs_dragon.png) ImgOps Google

>>843746
>you are in fact as subject to human authority

In a physical sense, sure.  In a moral sense, I'm not so sure, and that's what matters more.

The human world should be moral for the humans because there's no kind, as far as I can tell, forcing them to hurt their own.

 No.843794

File: 1539213652059.jpeg (1.27 MB, 1600x1200, 4:3, 896974.jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>842731
It's a good code. Don't knock it.

>>842097
It is very selfish. Glorification and demonization distort the truth and make one's perception of reality drift from reality as it is. It places the utility of a thing above the thing in itself in an epistemological heirarchy when the two shouldn't be heirarchical at all. It creates a false sense of certainty that when challenged can cause a person to go into crisis.

>>842226
In so much as the authorities are authorities.

 No.843829

File: 1539218468159.jpeg (235.06 KB, 1280x960, 4:3, fs_money.jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>843268
>People who think like that are the reason why the government is so damned wasteful and ineffective.
Justice is seldom cheap.

 No.843832

File: 1539219062237.jpg (129.46 KB, 500x500, 1:1, 1440099002600.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>843829
I was talking about DoD, not DoJ or the judiciary.

 No.843835

File: 1539219528130.jpg (8.58 KB, 259x194, 259:194, pinkyUS.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>843778
If some who are physically bound by authority are exempt from moral obligation, then why is it fair for some to not be exempt?

Is fairness not the fundamental underlying morality that authorities must embue?  If they do not, then they have no moral authority over anyone.

>should
Should does not mean does.  If Flowerkind is exempt from the morality of the human authorities, then how does a Flower have standing to advise on what human authorities should do?

 No.843843

File: 1539220359896.png (881.39 KB, 768x1024, 3:4, fs_dd.png) ImgOps Google

>>843835
>then why is it fair for some to not be exempt?

I respect humans know what they are doing with their kind -- some kind of moral fiber links them and makes enforcement justice.  Otherwise, what's the point of all the structure?

>is fairness not the fundamental underlying morality that authorities must embue?

If that's required for justice, sure.  I'm not going to tell the humans they have to be fair, but they can be.

>how does a Flower have standing to advise on what human authorities should do?

I only see my authority in cases that involve my kind where I feel the human ways are not completely appropriate.  Otherwise, I am to be fully respectful of human enforcements, just as is required of helpful, good humans.

>>843832
DoD has their military justice as well.  Follow the rules or get punished (sometimes).

 No.843922

File: 1539225703482.png (22.65 KB, 507x171, 169:57, 1539222433996.png) ImgOps Google

>>843843
I love that skirt.

 No.843930

>>843843
>DoD has their military justice as well.  Follow the rules or get punished (sometimes).
Oh believe me, I'm no stranger to needing to follow stupid DoD regulations that waste my time and taxpayer dollars.

 No.844384

File: 1539283323001.png (1.07 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20180927-085530.png) ImgOps Google

What does Flowerkind mean?

I'm confused again.

 No.844385

>>844384
Some kind of flower perhaps?

 No.844386

File: 1539283997597.png (1.03 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100156.png) ImgOps Google

>>844385
I mean in reference to this thread.

 No.844389

File: 1539284260725.png (47.2 KB, 457x507, 457:507, 74582__safe_rule%2B63_arti….png) ImgOps Google

>>844386

I think just people similar to Flower, who doesn't consider themselves human.

 No.844403

File: 1539286654493.png (1.15 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100250.png) ImgOps Google

>>844389
I guess I would fall within that category then.

 No.844404

File: 1539286784402.gif (1.65 MB, 1000x720, 25:18, you spin me right round ba….gif) ImgOps Google

>How do other ponies maintain a static posture as a good pony that always glories in enforcements?
They don't. That's why they should give ME all of their power. I will bring justice across the land.

 No.844439

File: 1539292941744.png (745.88 KB, 1920x804, 160:67, pinkskystar.png) ImgOps Google

>>844403

I'd like to think I'm in the same category of thing as a Flower but these authority rants are not really endearing...it's funny though, even a lost pony can't be sure if she's serious or goading.

 No.844440

>>842070
Fascism is bad.

 No.844448

File: 1539293684470.png (1.14 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Screenshot_20181002-100244.png) ImgOps Google

>>844439
I'm not entirely sure what these threads are about. Why'd you remove your name though?

 No.844458

>>844448
I think they are just about Flower being a few cards short of an Uno deck.

 No.844464

File: 1539294582490.gif (2.5 MB, 800x449, 800:449, rules.gif) ImgOps Google

>>843234

That's exactly what someone at Stage 4 would say ~ ;P

 No.844567

File: 1539299193254.jpeg (803.97 KB, 843x1024, 843:1024, ts_books.jpeg) ImgOps Google

>>844389
Basically.

>>844404
You'll have some fighting to do, but if you win, then you will be the human authority and all you do will be justice.

>>844439
>these authority rants are not really endearing
Justice is kindness.  Kindness brings happiness.  Humans will like their kindness, even if it brings pain and makes them upset.  It has to be so.

>>844448
They are about respect.  

-

I'm not sure why this thread seems like such a foreign idea to people.  Isn't this what civilization is based on?  Governments and order.  Enforcement of law.  Power hierarchies.  I don't think I'm wrong, but people won't tell me I'm right either.  Something is off.  I don't think the problem is me (although present company >>844458 disagrees), but I'll probably have to figure out how to fix it, or at least describe it.

 No.844588

If it's reasonable and justfied, then I see no problem. If there is enforcement inspired by self-interest of power, then it could be problematic.

 No.844592

Oh and hello Flower. It's nice to see you again!

 No.844605

File: 1539301105637.jpg (48.08 KB, 625x351, 625:351, thatwordmeans.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>844448
Nice palindrome quads.

a lost pony doesn't remember why.  there was some kind of reason, probably sulking or something.

>>844567
>kindness
pic related

 No.844611

File: 1539301787345.png (848.92 KB, 1000x900, 10:9, 1449472273872.png) ImgOps Google

>>842070
>Enforcement of rules or forcing submission by/to respectable institutions is the most important thing, a moral duty that must supersede all else.

>>844567
>I'm not sure why this thread seems like such a foreign idea to people.
Maybe because most of us here aren't fascists?  Because we realize that all governments are imperfect?  Because there are first principles of morality that are independent of demands of people in power?  Because the Nazi government of Deutschland during WW2 was considered a "respectable institution" at the time?

 No.844615

File: 1539301964461.jpg (107.04 KB, 707x1000, 707:1000, this shit is bananas, b a ….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>844567
>then you will be the human authority and all you do will be justice.
Yeah. "Justice".
You can say it will be some clean justice.

 No.844626

File: 1539302754136.jpg (452.13 KB, 1275x829, 1275:829, fs_Fair.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>844611
Law and the systems of government are either just or they are not.  If they are not just, their enforcement is unjust, which means police are nothing but bullies.  Bullies aren't to be supported, so the government must be destroyed since it hurts humans.  I sense that if I tried to destroy government, I would be seen as evil by the humans.  And I'm not going to try to help the humans only to be seen as evil, so they get government and if government's going to stay, it had better be respectable justice.  Not bullying.

 No.844640

File: 1539303345220.jpg (77.15 KB, 640x480, 4:3, doge-022.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>844626
>Law and the systems of government are either just or they are not.
Wrong.  There is continuum of degree of justness.  

 No.844661

>>844640
Then you just reword for your system: law and systems of government are either above the minimum acceptable degree of justness or they are not.

 No.844687

>>844661
Why would submission to a gov't (that is just barely above the threshold that it should be toppled by force for being unjust) be the highest moral duty?  That doesn't make any sense.

 No.844702

>>844687
It would need the moral ideas of individuals to have a lower degree of justness than the government, so wherever in the absolute term, government the highest degree of justness for the individual.  The necessary arrangement to justify authoritarian enforcement by government.

 No.844809

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>>844567
You aren't very clear about your motives.

What's the end goal here?

 No.845028

>>844809
My goal is faith in the human systems of justice for the humans, and I suppose for me as well, in areas where I can't claim exemption.  My goal is goodness and respect.

 No.845029

File: 1539344978370.png (530.62 KB, 1280x821, 1280:821, fs_bun.png) ImgOps Google

>>844592
Hello, Kikuto!  Hope you've been well.  Been awhile since we've talked.

 No.845094

File: 1539360131720.jpg (132.88 KB, 561x526, 561:526, Screenshot_20180927-085344.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>845028
At it's core, justice is nothing more than justified revenge. Keep that in mind.

 No.845096

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>>845028
A couple more things:

Faith is generally bad. Faith is the practice of believing something to be true in spite of the odds that it is not. This mostly leads to self-inflicted ignorance. It's better to have hope for something to be true but be willing to accept the fact that it may not.

Secondly, actions are not inherently good nor evil. Actions are neutral. What makes an action good or evil is purely dependant on the motive and intent of that action. Because of this, no law or rule will be flawless because laws can only dictate which actions are allowed and which ones are not. It has no way of dictating intent.

 No.845099

>>845096
>>845096
>laws can only dictate which actions are allowed and which ones are not. It has no way of dictating intent.
Nani?  Criminal laws are generally interpreted as having a mens rea requirement.

 No.845102

File: 1539362120570.gif (597.19 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, tumblr_p846j22SIZ1rlrlkqo1….gif) ImgOps Google

>>845099
Laws themselves cannot dictate intent. We establish intent through trial once a law is broken. There are no trials in a place like this though.

Example: If you hit and kill someone with your car, you will be arrested and put on trial to determine if you did it on purpose or on accident. But the action of killing someone with a car is still an offense, regardless of intent. Intent in this case only determines the sentence.

 No.845104

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>>845099
>Criminal laws are generally interpreted as having a mens rea requirement.
>mens rea

Is this the patriarchy?

 No.845105

File: 1539362473068.png (537.27 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, tumblr_p7jhx0wpuN1wili6eo4….png) ImgOps Google

>>845104
Latin was very sexist.

 No.845106

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>>845104
>>845105
Actually I'm kidding. Latin just had no idea what the fuck it was doing.

>Mens
>Feminine

 No.845295

File: 1539385228125.jpg (124.73 KB, 800x600, 4:3, chikorita__by_mentoslia.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>845029
Same to you. Looks like you got some heated argument flying around.

 No.845296

File: 1539385426860.png (179.53 KB, 844x1024, 211:256, fs_e.png) ImgOps Google

>>845094
Not sure that effect things much as I'm not to say humans can't be vengeful, but I grant that.

>>845096
>>845099
Yes, there's some of that.  Killing by accident vs. killing in a fit of rage vs. killing according to plan have different labels and punishments.  On the other hand, not intending to break a law isn't a good enough defense, so judging based on intent only goes so far.

>>845096
>Faith is generally bad.
It has been the fabric of communities larger than a few dozen individuals.  Although maybe that's bad, too...

 No.845311

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>>845296
>It has been the fabric of communities larger than a few dozen individuals.

The primary problem with faith is that faith is not a hope for truth, it is a replacement for truth, but it is a fabricated replacement.

 No.845626

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>>845311
Faith is not a replacement for Truth. It is a hazard of the activity of Faith, we might say, that it is antithetical to having a descriptive representation of causality (reason) as a desideratum; however, even this view, that Faith is the negative opposite of Reason, is a narrow one. In the first place, we must understand the character of Reason, which is seen in the development of languages which are suitable to prescribed referents. This means that, ultimately, the origin and whatever meaning we attach to the devices of Reason are, in principle, beyond the scope of Reason itself, although language can and does become self-referent (leading to issues with mind-recursiveness, which many attempts at "language philosophy" have tried to settle). Thus, in a natural sense, we cannot expect Truth to take a propositional form, or even a propositional correspondence, which we might eke out from Reason alone, though Reason clearly has some kind of bearing on other forms of perception.

In the second place, to understand Faith, we must see that Reason, being essentially descriptive, does not engender action of its own accord. This problem was recognized significantly during the Enlightenment, but reaches back further to ancient understanding which is manifest in the arts of so-called "divination". We may ask, What is the point at which we have enough data to make a decision? If we were to pursue a perfect fallibilism, such as that espoused by Mill (who was a devout Humean), we should say never. If we went into an ice cream shop with ten-thousand flavors, or even just two, and we had to pick, we would never get a scoop. The "immediate action" (that is, action lacking medium) represented by choosing a flavor is what Faith is really like. It may be doctrinal and highly structured--we might say operating within a larger scope of totality--because there is a reciprocal relationship between Reason and Faith; but one is not closer, nor further to Truth than the other.

 No.845702

File: 1539436048906.png (227.07 KB, 904x1024, 113:128, fs_flowers3.png) ImgOps Google

>>845295
I don't know.  I don't know that I read people very well through the internet, and on this platform no one can unfriend and block me.  So who knows what's heated and what's not?

>>845311
Yes, I think so.  In domains of faith there is no doubt, without doubt, no growth.

>>845626
If I understand, you're saying no one has figured out how to "science" morality.

 No.845721

File: 1539443965762.png (314.1 KB, 1280x1786, 640:893, tumblr_oxlinjgPj91ufyollo5….png) ImgOps Google

>>842795
I guess that's a better way of phrasing it. I'm more interested in making sure standards are universal, applied to everyone, in the case of authority.
Even if I think a law is stupid, in that regard, because I know people're going to end up punished for that law regardless, I'd enforce it, so as to prevent it being unfair.
There are some exceptions, of course, but, by that point, you'd be looking at a resignation if not open revolution, anyway.


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