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If you guys haven't been following the mile-a-minute roller coaster that is competitive world records high scores in old arcade games, let me tell you. It gets kick-you-in-the-dick cutthroat. Back in 2009 there was a documentary film released called "The King of Kong" about guy named Steve Weibe trying to get the world's high score at the Donkey Kong arcade game. In that movie Steve was competing with the reigning champion Billy Mitchel.

Well, it turns out the (self-proclaimed) "Gamer of the century" Billy Mitchel is actually the "Big fat fucking cheater of the century." Mitchel recently got caught using an emulator to get his high scores in DK and lying about it. Emulators are not allowed in world record high score competitions, to prevent people from using things like save states or modding the game. Not only this, its clear the recording of Mitchel getting his high score was spliced together from lots of separate recordings, which also isn't allowed. Because of this, Mitchel has had ALL his world records removed from the Twin Galaxies (the overseeing organization for all arcade game world records) and from the Guinness book of world records (who get their data from Twin Galaxies). Mitchel is also banned from ever competing for world records again. Having ALL of his records removed is a big deal in the community, because he held more than just the DK records. He was also was the first person to ever get a "perfect" score in Pac-Man; by eating every dot, fruit, ghost and not losing a single life on every level before 256 where the game crashes giving you the maximum possible points in the game. As well as several other records. Some of his records were probably legitimate, but getting caught cheating once calls all his accomplishments into question. But on the plus side, this means that Steve from "The King of Kong" is now officially the first person ever to get a million points legitimately in DK. In fact it was footage from the movie that helped expose Mitchel's cheating.

Let's celebrate douche bags getting their comeuppance. It happens so rarely these days, even in something as inconsequential as the world high scores we'll take the small victory.


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You'll get yours too!


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Seems a quality thread topic
[not sarcasm]

I suck at those games.


There comes a point where trying to get the high scores is just mindless repetition for hours. I usually just try to beat my own personal scores.


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Well... as much as him being a cheater sucks and he should be punished for that...

he really shouldn't have had all his records taken away. He should have been banned and had the record that he cheated on revoked, but that's it.

If he didn't cheat in any of the other ones, he shouldn't have lost the records.


Well, that's the thing. Since he got caught cheating at one, it calls ALL his records into question. Perhaps it isn't the most "fair" thing, but it's just the situation he put himself in. By cheating he lost his credibility, his trustworthiness. And that isn't limited to just the thing we can prove he cheated at. It's attached to him as a person, and it's something he should have considered before choosing to cheat.


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Uh. Good for Steve, I guess? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be celebrating.


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Well, then they should go in and investigate every single one of his records. If they stand up,let him keep them, if they don't, take them away.

You should never do a blanket removal like that. Just because someone cheated with one thing, doesn't mean they did with everything, and it should be taken on a case by case basis.


"Douche bags getting their comeuppance."

I think it's the right move to remove them all. Why should he be allowed to keep the others when he's shown himself to have no qualms about cheating? We have no guarantee he did not cheat every time and we can no longer trust his word.


Ugh, I can't stand people who cheat in competitive games. I get screwing around by yourself, that's fun and all, but cheating to get an edge vs others is just pathetic. You're robbing yourself of the carefully crafted experience, and denying yourself skill.

Only posistive thing I can say about cheaters is they can push others to greatness just based on how much they make people hate them. I once killed a cheater in ds3, felt fantastic.


What's Ds3?



Dark souls 3


Is that a competitive game?


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Because if he didn't cheat in them, he doesn't deserve to lose them. Only if he cheated to win should the records be removed. Just because you have cheated before to win one game doesn't mean you've needed to cheat in every game to win.

Just because you have no guarantee he didn't cheat every time, doesn't mean he did. Again, you have to go through and investigate every one of his records for cheating. If there is cheating, remove it. If there isn't, leave it. If he didn't cheat, he deserves the win, even if he cheated before in a different game.

Man, people who do online in DS3 after using cheats are the worst.

I use a trainer to play DS3 because I just want to get through it and do all the storylines and stuff, but I always keep Online connectivity turned off.

there is competitive aspects to it, yes. Not like Pac-Man or something like that, but it still has it in there.


I still feel like there should be a penalty for cheating beyond just losing your record for that one game. Otherwise people would just cheat all the time and hope no one ever finds them all.



It definitely can be. The depth of play and overall high challenge level can draw some pretty competitive people.


I can't say I've never used CE in ds3, but only ever for grind reduction. Theres definately a right and a wrong way.


Is there like a scoring system? Or is this like, speed runs?


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>Why should he be allowed to keep the others when he's shown himself to have no qualms about cheating? We have no guarantee he did not cheat every time and we can no longer trust his word.
Well, shouldn't they at least attempt to investigate?  If after investigation they have no confidence that any of his scores are genuine, that's one thing, but to just blanket-remove them seems quite cheap in a bad way.

>I still feel like there should be a penalty for cheating beyond just losing your record for that one game.
But you shouldn't get to rewrite history just to punish someone.  If you believe that one of his high scores is genuine, then you're lying if you say that someone else's lower score is the highest score.


It's not lying. It's just the highest confirmed score.



There's some speed runners, but more than that there's dueling and invasions. Most of the high level competitions are community-organized tournaments.


I feel like you just read off the plot of Pixels. Sans aliens bringing the games to life.


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Again, like I said, being banned from all further competitions was something I agree with. That is your punishment.

I just use it straight up infinite HP and FP, leave Stamina, and try to play the game normally from there. Sometimes turn on Infinite Drop Chance for collecting armors.


Well, Peter Dinklage's character in Pixels IS based on Billy Mitchell. He's always been kind of a douche. Other things have mocked him before. A character based on him appeared on the Regular Show, and Mitchell tried to sue them over it. The case was thrown out.

But why should his old scores be allowed to stand if they can't be trusted?


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I remember that episode. it's like one of five that I've actually seen


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Because they potentially can be trusted. Again, investigate all the scores to see if they are real and that he didn't cheat. I've said this three times now.


I don't think you can cheat a speedrun, as they've now become "who can break the game the most?"


I'm not really sure how they would investigate ALL the scores he's put in over the last 30 years. You keep saying it, but you don't know if that's actually feasible or possible.


They have different categories of speed runs. There's who can break the game the most speed runs, which are the fastest, but there's also things like no glitch speed runs and original hardware speed runs.


obviously not ALL of them, just the ones that would qualify for some kind of a record


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If they were really interested in justice instead of just wanton punishment to appease their constituents, they would go through the ones that he has records for.

If they can't be assed to do it, they shouldn't remove all his awards. It's laziness.


Gotta agree with you on this one, and this is how it's done.

Even police officers who are caught falsifying evidence just once end up with all the criminals they've put away getting out of prison because it puts everything they've ever done into question.

Being able to prove someone cheated is like getting caught shoplifting.  You've probably gotten away with it many times before, but no one can prove it.

When records are made, they are based on clean proper accomplishment.  It's a disservice to everyone else to let their other records stand.

Further, it's a disincentive.  If you've earned a record, don't cheat to win another or you can lose what you've accomplished.

Like that bastard Lance Armstrong who i worshipped before he was not only caught cheating, but coercing his teammates to cheat too.  Stripped of all his records, not just the ones he cheated on.


I'm not sure they actually have "constituents", and I don't think it was done out of laziness. This guy has been toxic to the community for quite some time, and we don't know everything going on behind the scenes. We can't assume it's just laziness on their part without all the information. We don't even know how their applications for high scores works. All the evidence could no longer exist and there's no way to go back and verify their authenticity. Maybe they will change their rules in the wake of this situation to reflect that. We don't know.


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>This guy has been toxic to the community for quite some time
Oh. I see. In that case, nevermind.


There's a reason why parodies of him appear in things like Pixels and Regular Show, and why he was the antagonist of "The King of Kong". His behavior and attitude are douche to the highest order.


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I've never watched any of those things, I don't keep track.

It makes sense they would want to get rid of him as quickly and completely as possible.

It's not like he was just some guy with a lot of records who happened to cheat on one, he's also a douchebag and sounds like a horrible human being, so I get it. It's more like they're punishing him for all his bad behavior at once under the guise of it just being that one thing that made it happen. I can understand that.



Wait, why would that be what changes your mind?

If you are adamant the burden is on the accusers to prove he's cheating shouldn't his being "toxic" be irrelevant?


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Because it is.


Well that's because the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt.  And that's difficult to do if you need to rely on testimony from a crooked cop.

If someone is acquitted on one charge $A$ based on documents that he presents, but in a later trial on an unrelated charge $B$ he is found guilty of forging documents, the gov't can't go back and take away his acquittal on charge $A$.



It kind of makes it easier to believe he's cheating, at least that's how I see it.


Oh, the dollar signs were supposed to be formatting codes for italic text.  I'm still thinking in LaTeX.


Why do you talk like a robot sometimes?


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I recall he was a guest star on Regular Show on this subject, where he was also a huge jerkbag.

Is this old news?


His getting his records revoked happened a few days ago. But his being a jerkbag has been known for a while.

Did you know he tried to sue Regular Show for that episode? But the judge threw the case out.


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Gosh, he really is a douchy type.

I'd be like super stoked to play a part in a cartoon show.


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Heard about that, and good riddance.  Cheating is about as low as you can go, especially in something like this.


How unprofessional is an organisation like Twin Galaxies if they allow people to get the world record high score without the kind of supervision that would catch people using emulators, save states, modding etc? :bon2:


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I've watched some of these sorts of competitions.  It's an interesting sport.

(Confess I find making machines that play video games more interesting.)


That's kinda interesting.  If I understand correctly, real hardware has separate circuits  that read the video RAM for the TV signal presumably in sync with the TV scan.  The emulator copies the whole chunk of RAM to screen at once every frame leading to slight differences in how things are drawn.  Not that you couldn't emulate the TV sweep, but it's probably a level of purity most don't need (unless you want to hide that you have an emulator).

>douche bags getting their comeuppance

Exactly.  Lack of attention to detail when cheating is unforgivable.


That's pretty much the core problem, it isn't like olympic events where it can be done in a single, controlled setting where everything can be tested. Because of the nature of videogames, everyone's copy should be identical and people can try for a record in their homes thousands of times a day. There's no way we could expect that kind of top end performance in a marathon run. But that causes these problems because cheating is... honestly not that hard. Digital recordings are pretty easy to falsify, and even nowadays when people are expected to livestream their WR attempts it still can't solve the problem of modded emulators or really clever acting. That's why one cheat ruins your entire record, you'll see the same policies anywhere it's easy to cheat.


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Maybe this stuff should happen in an arena setting rather than the home.  We don't record the times actual olympic competitors get in their pool at home.


It's because of how the world records submission is set up. Since it's on an actual arcade machine, you have to send in a video recording of your screen to get the world record.

It was only after someone meticulously went through Billy Mitchell's record (using footage from "The King of Kong" since those videos are not usually available to the public) that he found evidence he was using an emulator and splicing together footage.

May he be laughed at an booed whereever he goes. I wonder who has the official first "Perfect Pac-Man" now.


Yeah, that's how they found his cheating. Some quick over how the level is generated on original hardware versus MAME. Also, examination of the audio on his high score video showed evidence of the video being spliced together from multiple playthroughs, which isn't allowed. Gaps in the audio, sudden spikes in volume, things like that. Whoever discovered this must have spent a lot of time and effort just to make sure this guy got caught. I wonder if Billy Mitchell had sex with his mom or something.

> Lack of attention to detail when cheating is unforgivable.
That's not the issue! The issue is that he cheated at all. Cheating makes it unfair to the people like Steve Weibe who are actually putting real effort into it.

Since the world records setters live all over the world, it would be hard to get them to come to one place to set the record.  There's a lot of mitigating factors there.


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>a lot of time and effort just to make sure this guy got caught

True, took familiarly with the approximations made in emulation and enough time to take the video frame by frame, and as you mention, paying careful attention to audio.  Emulators are fun to think about.

The issue makes you wonder how you would verify someone is playing straight-through using a standard system at a remote location and not augmenting their play in any way.  Nothing robust comes to mind short of setting up a testing stations watched for tampering.

>The issue is that he cheated at all.

Maybe I confuse issue and cause.  Those cheaters that mind the details are like the tree the falls in the forest and dosen't make a sound, although I guess the motivation to cheat involves a lack of desire to be fair and that's usually bad.  So yes, bad stuff.



Fuck cheaters.

Cheaters are the worst.


>I guess the motivation to cheat involves a lack of desire to be fair

Um.. yeah. It's called "fair play". People compete under the agreed upon condition that it is their skill versus another's skill. Which is why rules and regulations are in place to ensure that. So if you lose, it's because their skill surpassed yours, or you didn't make a hard enough effort. Not because they had an unfair advantage. That's why cheating is treated as such a big deal in any kind of competition, from the Olympics to Pac-Man.



On the other hoof, some believe in winning by any means necessary.

See Kobyashi Maru.


The "Kobiyashi Maru" scenario was created by Starfleet to put trainees into a no-win scenario. It doesn't so much test their skills in battle as it does their ability to keep their composure under stress.


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It's also actually based on something that happened in Starfleet history, if you count the show Enterprise as canon.


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Didn't know that! I guess it makes sense. and if Voyager is still canon, then Enterprise is. It retconned a lot of stuff, though.


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Yeah, there was a thing in Enterprise where they went in to try and save the Kobiyashi Maru.

That's all I remember about it off the top of my head, though.


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It was a novel. It was a bad novel.

I say that as something of an Enterprise apologist. They shoehorned in Section-31, a spy mission to Romulus of all places, it's just a mess.

I'm sorry but if the Vulcans got blindsided that the Romulans were the descendants of the Vulcans that rejected Surak, I doubt that some clandestine human organization could successfully infiltrate the empire, much less the actual capital world.

I won't go on too much about that though. No one seems to be able to write for the Romulans correctly since DS9.

Just don't get me started on how losing two planets, even important ones, wouldn't cause something as large as the Romulan Empire to collapse to the point Nero makes it out to have in the 2009 movie.


Yeah I didn't the Federation only learn that romulans look like Vulcans in the original series which is a hundred years after Enterprise.

Also the reason why Nero's motivations don't make any sense is because those movies suck.


Because I like explaining things like this for the non-nerds in the audience, Romulans are actually the descendants of Vulcans who said "fuck that" when Vulcan society decided to suppress their emotions. Then Romulans went to another planet. Only Vulcans knew this until an episode of The Original Series where the Enterprise discovers it.



The way i remember it, the Vulcans knew that but it's classified knowledge, also mind meld and some other stuff Spock knows were forbidden knowledge.


That's what I said. Only Vulcans knew who the Romulans were.


Reading it again, that is what you said.

Oop.  Federation hadn't heard from them since 80 years before having never seen them directly, of course if one imagines section 31 existing in the past what they know isn't shared back anyway.  Enterprise kinda fell apart, cuda been great


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The Vulcans knew that there were some who left Vulcan and rejected Surak's teachings.

They did not know those Vulcans ended up becoming the Romulans.


>cuda been great
Are you into GPU programming?  I should try to learn CUDA.  Parallelism looks like it will be important in the near future, but it's currently a blind spot for me.


But weren't they like "Spock, why didn't you tell us Romulans look like Vulcans?" and Spock was like "I dunno, never came up."


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No. The first part is correct, but Spock's answer amounted to "We didn't know."


It's been a while since I saw the episode, so you might be right. I think he says something along the lines of "They might be those dudes that fucked off when we got rid of our emotions. Oh shit, that means they are super dangerous and aggressive."



Oh man, this should be good.




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Just give him a second, maybe he'll...


...no nevermind, that sounded dumb.

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