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 No.605367[View All]

I feel like this video I posted might have gotten lost in the larger discussion in the other thread. But it's actually rather informative about the issue of gun control in the US. Because it's not just something we should talk about right after a bunch of people die and then forget about.

I'd like it if people actually watched the video so we can discuss the points it makes in this thread. Feel free to disagree and counter-point if you'd like, but only if you watch the whole video.
190 posts and 59 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.607367

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>>607360
>There has never once been a political thread that hasn't had some percentage of posts where people are rude.

There has been more than one civil discussion thread, and even ones like this were relatively tame.  This thread is not something I feel needs to be stopped, it was not a mistake to be avoided in the future.

>>607366

They mean that /pony/ is the only board that gets used, really, and that everything posted goes here.  The introduction of an actual /all/ board would require that we make other boards like a /dis/.  The tagging idea from earlier would probably be better, though, I think.

 No.607368

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>>607367
Then you haven't been paying attention.

My last point stands.

 No.607370

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>>607368

I read the entire thread, I don't know what you think I'm not paying attention to.

 No.607371

File: 1507892938992.jpg (97.9 KB, 460x750, 46:75, tumblr_o56609uETW1uvnmrto1….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Look, again, the problem isn't that people have a problem with political threads.

We've gotten away from the main issue here. It's not that people are tired of seeing threads.

The issue here is that the people who DO frequent these threads and who DO like to post in them, cannot keep things civil. They almost always devolve into insults and other untoward things.

Again, the problem isn't the people on the outside looking in, but the people inside the threads who constantly make problems. Regardless of whether a poster wants to be in a political thread, regardless of if they hide the threads and don't look in them, it only serves to make a toxic environment on the site for everyone. I don't know about you, but I don't think having threads full of people insulting each other is very welcoming to any potential newcomers.

 No.607373

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>>607370
This isn't the only thread.

And again, if you SERIOUSLY see nothing wrong with what has happened in this thread, then your position as moderator should be reconsidered.

 No.607374

File: 1507893157635.jpg (112.09 KB, 800x801, 800:801, tumblr_on0pd7gNhA1qmh1uqo1….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Anyways, I said my piece a long time ago, it's just circular now.

Ciao.

 No.607375

>>607364
Manley gets away with a ton. A lot of that is so borderline though. And he gets away with most of it because you can't prove he didn't legitimately innocently misunderstand something. I agree that there needs to be more mod intervention, but like I said, he is never reported. Like seriously, never. The mods can't ignore it if he gets continuously reported.

 No.607376

>>607367
>>607368

Yee - and don't forget politics are inherently divisive, since no matter what your position is, it involves the implicit use of force on another to get your way. "Civil" discussion is not a discussion like friends like the mane 6 would have where everypony is loved - it simply means "we're not going to hurt each other until we see who can get the most people on their side, and whoever get the most must be right and therefore can do what they want."

Of course, just because most people can be convinced to believe a certain way on an issue, that doesn't mean it's best for everyone…

But it always involves forcing others to conform to whoever the victor happens to be, which is inherently unkind.

 No.607377

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>>607376
>Of course, just because most people can be convinced to believe a certain way on an issue, that doesn't mean it's best for everyone…
>But it always involves forcing others to conform to whoever the victor happens to be, which is inherently unkind.
What you're describing is called the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP).

 No.607378

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>>607375
but he insists he understands everything.  Cake and eat it too.  It's nauseating.  I have had many times when the only other person to interact with was him.  New people might judge the entire community by their interaction with him and never come back.  I have people here that I really like and in the last two days I am pretty sure it is only my OCD that keeps me hanging on.

Perhaps it's time for this wheel to begin squeaking.


>>607376
Politics do not have to be divisive.  Yes, people disagree but there is a large pool of people in the middle who are interested in examining information before making up their mind.  And an issue as complex as gun control has a lot of granularity.  It should be possible for people to share ideas and anecdotes and gather knowledge on which to base their opinions without having to fight it out like starving dogs.

The Mane 6 don't always get along by the way.  But that gives me an idea.  Perhaps we can judge who belongs on a pony forum by requiring a declaration of allegiance to pony.  I know someone ion particular who has been giving me a hard time who no longer cares for pony…I'm just saying.

 No.607379

>>607378
>Perhaps it's time for this wheel to begin squeaking
Do it! Hell, encourage other users to report. It is your direct line to the mods about what you think is and isn't site appropriate. Most reports don't see a mod response but the more feedback mods get, the better they can tune their response to the community's desire. I don't think this thread generated a single report, so ya got to understand what message that sends to mods.

 No.607380

>>607379
there is at least one report, i sent it yesterday.

 No.607381

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>>607378
I can confirm for a fact that at least two people left this website in the past because of Manley.

Their names were Derpymouz and Cartographer.

But your idea for a declaration of allegiance to pony is as stupid as it is idiotic. I don't watch the show and I know a lot of other people either don't either or don't watch it frequently. And I can say without a doubt that there will be multiple people who have a problem with declaring an allegiance to something as idiotic as a child's TV program.

>>607377
watch out, dont violate the nap

 No.607383

>>607380
Looks like you are right. Dumb report bot is on the fritz again. A bot is supposed to post reports into the mod's discord but it is always failing for some reason or other. Wow, one of those posts was really bad. That really should have gotten a response, well, imo. I don't do any actual mod work.

 No.607384

>>607381
>But your idea for a declaration of allegiance to pony is as stupid as it is idiotic. I don't watch the show and I know a lot of other people either don't either or don't watch it frequently. And I can say without a doubt that there will be multiple people who have a problem with declaring an allegiance to something as idiotic as a child's TV program.

This isn't really my idea of how civility looks. A simple "I don't think anyone is gonna be interested in swearing allegiance to a child's tv show, nor would I think it a good idea if they did" would suffice.

 No.607385

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>>607384
I never said I was trying to be civil.

Last I checked we're not debating politics right now.

 No.607386

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>>607381
I'm aware of two others but not of my direct knowledge.

Did you think my allegiance to pony idea was serious?  I'm not sure how to feel.

>>607384
I didn't see anywhere in there that it it wouldn't be a good idea…

in all fairness the idea was supposed to be idiotic.  it's just my stupid humor when I should have been sleeping hours ago instead I'm fretting and realizing I forgot to buy milk that I'm gonna need in the morning.

Imagine…civility exclusively in politics.  I detect humor.

 No.607387

>>607383
What was the really bad post?  or is that secret admin information.  I saw the trainwreck as it happened, but might as well check out the highlights reel.

 No.607388

File: 1507896685608.png (540.21 KB, 660x579, 220:193, tumblr_nkjq5iSAEt1r4cgduo1….png) ImgOps Google

>>607386
Oh really, you know some others? Nice.

No, not really. I mean look at my last post.

"Last I checked we're not debating politics right now."

>Imagine…civility exclusively in politics.  I detect humor.
Ah, see, you got it.

 No.607389

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>>607383

Yeah, but Moony replied to that stuff, and it's not the norm.  Lostpony was a bit out of line, is all.

 No.607390

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>>607388
i still don't see how the guy in the OP's video is funny though.  It was pretty bad.  Manley insists it's satire but i didn't get any of it.

 No.607391

>>607389
the one I was warned on, or somewhere else?

I bet it was the waste of skin part.  That quip was wasted on him.

 No.607392

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>>607390
Yeah, that Cracked series is a bit hit or miss, honestly.

I watched a couple episodes of it when it first started but stopped watching almost immediately. Just not that funny.

>>607389
LP wasn't really the person who was all that out of line. All he did was lose his cool when Manley was constantly rude to him.

>>607391
It was definitely that part.

See, these people actually don't have any real problem with people being rude assholes to each other, they only really care when people start outright insulting people. So if you can keep it subtle they won't actually have that much of a problem.

Course if you ask them, they'll deny it, but their actions speak much louder than their words.

 No.607395

>>607389
You read the entire thread.  Do you agree that Manley was also out of line?

Whether my name is added to the list of people who are no longer around depends on the general position of management on this question.

 No.607396

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>>607391
Oh yeah, and if you actually DO have a problem with someone's behavior, they'll just tell you to ignore it.

Because they don't really care, they just want to seem like they do so they can have the "moral" high ground if you try to take  things into your own hands.

Just some stuff about the moderation team here you might want to keep in mind going forward. Out of all of them, the only one who'll even consider your side of things is Moony, but he'll still bow out when he starts to get outnumbered.

 No.607397

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>>607391

Yeah, the waste of skin bit.

>>607395

He was, though I can't remember anymore if he was addressed.  Would be odd if he wasn't, but I was asleep for most of it.  He should've been, at the least for the post of his that got reported.

In any case, don't take the intervention too hard.  It was just a polite reminder.

 No.607398

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>>607392
>See, these people actually don't have any real problem with people being rude assholes to each other, they only really care when people start outright insulting people. So if you can keep it subtle they won't actually have that much of a problem.

And no, that's mostly right.  I think you've got it down.  There are some users, like you, who tend to take advantage of that distinction, but you're a bit of an outlier.  Most other users aren't a rude asshole all of the time, and it seems overbearing to step in every time someone gets slightly upset.  The line is drawn at personal attacks and insults, not at interpersonal relationships.

 No.607400

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>>607398
Ah, but interpersonal relationships are the lifeblood of sites like this, Without them, nobody would want to come here because nobody has any attachment to people. Discussion of episodes in a TV show is hardly enough to keep a community oriented website active for long.

Honestly, all I'm getting from you is that 1) You don't understand how people work and 2) you're too lazy to actually try and prevent bad things from happening, you'd rather just sit back and wait for them to happen so you can come in and solve it.

Both things don't really make for a good or effective moderator. A moderator's task isn't just to solve the problems when they do come up, but to also try to prevent them from happening in the first place. If you can do one but not the other, then you're not a good fit for moderation.

Yes, yes, I know, I'm harping on you a lot as a moderator, but I just want it to be abundantly clear that I don't think you should be one.

 No.607403

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>>607397
He was absolutely not warned publicly that I could see.

I've actually never seen him receive a warning, not that I've seen very many threads.  And I've seen a lot that makes 'waste of skin" look complimentary, a few of the more moderate gems cited above in this thread.

It took me many hours to get my serenity back after the first half of what happened, costing me valuable rest and then failing to meet an obligation while I struggled to regain my composure for my job.

The next day I was doing pretty well after a successful day at work, with its reward of money that I spent on a pretty good time with a friend and then I check in to see that I was cautioned, however politely, for something that is not very insulting even if I had intended it to be.  I believe the support for its truth can be found in posts accusing me of learning the words I use on TV shows or something to that effect a couple days ago.

Being the one in trouble, however slight or politely administered when the instigator goes free is a positive reinforcement of his bad behavior and this is an unfairness that I have been ruminating on for hours.  If this is how things are done here, then I will not be able to stay.  Not as a matter of principle, but because this is my "group therapy".  I have quickly come to love some people here but if the culture is to allow one person to instigate any and everyone without so much as a "polite reminder" while those who have been genuinely hurt do get warned, then this is not the kind of place I am able to fulfill my needs for safe socialization.  It becomes the opposite.

>>607400
I don't think most sites are blessed with good moderators, not that I have direct experience with more than two of them.  That you are not banned for speaking out so bluntly demonstrates that Mondo is a least 1000% better a moderator than the ruling staff at mlparena.

 No.607406

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>>607403
>I've actually never seen him receive a warning, not that I've seen very many threads.

Well he's been banned in the past for crossing too many lines and will be again if he returns to causing that level of conflict.  He was a bit abrasive in the beginning, but I think the whole event was largely a misunderstanding between the two of you.

>The next day I was doing pretty well after a successful day at work

Wasn't this all just last night?  Or are you talking about some other event now?

 No.607409

I only have time to point out the irony of lostpony complaining about me "talking behind his back" after he had left, and then proceeding to do so to me. Ill unravel this when I'm done at work.

 No.607655

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>>607375  Being a "questionably" bad faith debater whose intentions cannot be proven doesn't mean you haven't succeeded in overwhelming the opposition in complete and utter bullshit.  As an example, the Gish Gallop 'works' whether you're just bad at debating or whether you intend to overwhelm the opposition with pointlessness - the end result is the same.

 No.607659

>>607655
Sure, but how do you moderate bad faith debating and incompetent debating? It is infuriating but not really against the rules. "You're banned for having too many logical fallacies". I mean, I wouldn't mind that…

 No.607660

File: 1507918456199.png (784.46 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, -_S6E1.png) ImgOps Google

>>607659  The only winning move is not to play.

 No.607661

>>607660
Yeah but I've only really won on the internet once I've convinced somehow of how utterly wrong they are in their opinions. That isn't possible when I don't play.

 No.607662

>>607661  the eternal struggle

 No.607722

>>607406
I'm not asking for anyone to be banned; that is the last thing I want.  Just that both parties be mentioned and not one singled out when both are offending.

I'm sorry to be unclear, my days tend to start and end at different times as I have two different jobs on different shifts.  I was referring to "day" from my perspective as I was describing my own experience not the calendar day.  The events complained of are all contained within this thread.

>>607660
To be fair, if by not playing you mean not debating, that seems to be insufficient to spare one from the Wrath of Manley.  I was discussing his video in good faith, as his OP asked, in interest of participating and contributing to the whole.  Not debating anyone or taking any position whatsoever, and I was attacked ruthlessly and yes, I lost my cool.  I have not really regained my cool as a result.

>>607409
If one bothers to read all of my words in this thread, one will see that I refer to Manley's whining about speaking when someone is not here in context of his own stated rule of conduct.  That is not my rule, and I expect to be judged by what I've written whether I'm here or not.  Further, my words in this thread are indefensible so it matters not whether I am here to discuss them.  They are an abomination and I do not deny that.  I don't see how Manley plans to "unravel" something that is a frayed pile of garbage from all angles.

If I might suggest to Mr. Manley, should he not despise me and wish for my noninteraction forever, that he simply declare that mistakes were made and apologize without reservation, limitations, or admissions.

I for one certainly apologize to all for this embarrassing recurrence of early grade school.  I'm not proud of myself nor do I consider myself to be right or my conduct to be particularly excusable, and I certainly don't wish to see anyone attempt to defend of justify their participation and I don't think anyone else does either.

>>607406
Wait wait:  You say that someone has been banned and returned.  Is this true of a permaban?  Or is that genuinely permanent?  I am thinking of someone else who is very repentant and I want to know if that person has any hope of return.

 No.607732

>>607722
Permabans have been overturned before. But I can tell you that Steam Twist and Pipes are perma-perma banned at this point. Anyone else might have a chance.

 No.607753

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>>607732
>Steam Twist
Ah yes, that guy (AKA "Wrima").  He almost makes Manley look tame.  You can see him in action on /luna/: http://www.getchan.net/luna/res/103114.html                                                                   

 No.607776

Can someone please point to the post where I "viscously attacked" lost pony, because I seriously have no idea what the fuck he's even talking about. I also hope you guys had fun talking about me behind my back when I had no way of clarifying or defending myself.

 No.607782

>>607776
Clarify or defend yourself right now. Get over this whole 'talking behind my back' thing. It doesn't really qualify as talking behind someone's back when it is said out in the open for that someone to hear.

 No.607792

>>607782
The LostPony has no grounds to claim that I was "talking behind his back" either. But you didn't say what you just said to him.

Either way, nothing annoys me more that people talking about me like I'm not here, like I'm a pest that needs to be dealt with. If you have something to say to me, say it while I'm posting, which is as close to "to my face" as one can get on the internet.

Well, there's a lot to unravel here. I'm not even sure where to start.

 No.607795

>>607753
I spot-read through that thread a little bit and it is very sad.

That person is putting forth an indefensible theory and trying to prove it to people who are just picking him apart.  His exasperation seems similar to mine in this thread with multiple Manleys attacking him there and further makes me question if I should even be participating in forums.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but that place makes this seem a much happier place and whether I am up to the challenge of successful interaction here or not, it does put my perception of Manley into perspective.

I guess I can kind of see why Manley's a bit of a mascot here.


>>607792
Don't bother, Manley.  I think the problem is that I actually cared what you said to me and I am not sure you could be any other way.  Perhaps I am too thin-skinned and emotionally immature to even be here.


I have enough problems in real life to go looking for hurt in places that don't seem able to supply the support-group sort of interaction I am needing.  It's not your fault that I had the wrong idea and that my skull is even thicker than my skin is thin.

 No.607798

>>607795
I don't hate you and I'm not trying to insult you. If you would just calm down and talk to me, we could work this out. I have no problem co-existing with you.

 No.607807

>>607795
Come on, man. Look. I don't want you to go. I'll agree to stop talking to you if you want, but I really just want to know WHY you're upset.

 No.607813

File: 1507945044867.png (164.98 KB, 400x347, 400:347, Derpy_muffins.png) ImgOps Google

>>607798
I'll take that peace offer.

I'm upset because I exposed myself and you presented a conclusion that was inconsistent with what I said, that hurt my feelings because apparently I am sensitive about something I didn't realize was an issue for me.  I demanded an apology in a way that just added fuel to the fire and it's my fault.

It wouldn't have happened if I had just backed away when I felt a reaction.  I think you like to foment arguments, and I don't like them.  I assumed that by not taking any position against you I would be spared from that, and I wasn't prepared for what you always do because I'm not smart and I took offense for no good reason.  You just did what you do and I should know better than to take it so seriously.

You don't have to stop talking to me.  I just need to know when to take a time-out.

I'm glad you don't seem to have intended to provoke me or deliberately make me feel bad.  I apologize for making a big deal out of it and I'll try to be more careful when interacting here.

 No.607816

>>607813
Yes. I didn't know what you were demanding an applogy for, so I was confused. And my confusion just made you angrier. It was a simple misunderstand on both our parts that spiraled out of control. That's why I'm trying to keep a level-head and talk this through with you.

I said it already once before, but I'll say again, I'm sorry for not being clear what I meant, and making any implications that might have insulted you. I'm not trying to insult you or make you feel bad. I almost never am, and I get upset when people assume that's my intent.

You got reported because I took your statements that "big words confuse me" as an insult. I've never said that or implied that. If you weren't trying to insult me with those comments, then I would accept an apology from you too.

Yes, I think it would be best if you took a time out if you feel yourself getting worked up. But I want you to come back and tell me why you were upset and what I did to upset you when you're calmer. I think it would help us interact better. I'm not a bad guy. Or a monster. I'm not out to make people feel like crap. OK? We don't have to fight. I'm willing to meet you half way here if you ware.

 No.607834

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>>607816
Your immediate apology after I was cautioned was buried in this textwall:

>>607308
" I:  1) apologize to any I may have unintentionally offended including Manley"

I'm not entirely sure in retrospect if it was entirely unintentional anyway, I think I meant it to torpedo both of us.  I am sure I didn't mean for it to be very insulting, just mildly deprecating and not a big deal.  I was happy and getting chased hurriedly out of the office with my meager week's pay at the time so I really didn't think about it very much.

I also made another qualified apology just above in >>607813
"I apologize for making a big deal out of it"

which I believe by your standards both of these are apologies but I'd like to add an unqualified apology for the whole thing:

 I wholeheartedly apologize.

I think if you had simply apologized without understanding when I was going crazy-stupid it would have defused me but, I don't know why I thought you would.  Or if I thought you might.  That's not your deal.  You do say things that offend people, and on the receiving end it can be hard to believe that it's unintentional, at the time.  In retrospect I can feel a lot better taking responsibility for the whole thing and looking back I believe that you didn't mean it to be hurtful.  It was just for arguing.

I appreciate that you want to meet me halfway but I guess it was mostly all me.  I think it took a glimpse of getchan posted above that made it clear to me.  I don't think the guys roasting Storm Twist would be willing to meet him halfway.  They were really enjoying ripping him to pieces and I don't know what he has done in the past but that was hard to read and had to be harder to experience, whether he set himself up for it or not.  

And like I pointed out somewhere above i don't know why I would care so much about the thing you said anyway.  At the time it seemed like a huge big deal and quite obvious that you should know….but, I don't even know why I felt so strongly either now, so how could you know.  Now I'm going in circles so I'll stop rambling.

Thanks everyone for putting up with autistic mess.  I feel a lot better.  Thanks Manley and everyone who weighed in on this.  I'll try to be less of a dorkwad.

Now I'm getting all mushy.  Like I said the emotions of a four year old.  It can be quite delightful when it's love of ponies but it can make social discourse a bit challenging for me.

 No.607837

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>>607816
Oh yeah and it gives me a warm fuzzy that you actually care about having me around after I was going off like that.  Thanks.  and thanks to everyone for putting up with my crazy.

 No.607838

>>607834
Then I accept your appology. We should try to discuss things like this, next time you feel offended by something I've said. Just take however long you need to relax, and then come and tell me calmly that something I said upset you. I'm usually willing to apologize if people approach me that way. Which is difficult when you're upset, I get. But it doesn't help anyone to get angry. On either side.

Without getting too much into it, Steam Twist has severe mental issues, and he liked to blame society (and by extension all of us) for the problems of the world. Most people just wanted him gone, and ignored him, but I tried to talk to him and get through to him, but it never went anywhere. He was too far gone in his own delusions.  Eventually he got himself banned for harrassment. It's best not to worry about that guy.

>>607837
I do. Misunderstandings happen, but that's not any reason for someone to be driven away. I'm glad we worked this out, we should try to talk more like this in the future.


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