No.564153[Last 50 Posts]
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So um… we're all going to die. And I realize that not a lot of people have been talking about the fact that we're all going to die soon. Thoughts?
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It will be like the million other times we were all supposed to die.
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We were always going to die. The only thing that has changed is that sensationalism has convinced you that you will die because of an asian manchild.
I find the sensationalism more than tedious.
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if anyone other than Trump was in office, i would not worry about it at all
unfortunately, that is the case.
Except these guys will probably actually do it.>>564238>We were always going to die.
I meant sooner than usual.>>564247
Exactly my point. Both of them are talking about fire and fury and both of them are egotistical to the point of madness and sociopathic. They are both willing to destroy everyone else on Earth to prove their dick is bigger than the other guy's and that's a dangerous place for the rest of humanity to be in.
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dude, i'm not even worried about kim jong un, even if he portrays himself as a madman in the eyes of the west
he's a dicatator, and knows how to do things to keep his people in line. but i haven't seen anything from him that is legit crazy, horrible yes, but not crazy.
trump however is an extreme narcissist and is more than willing to stoop to the lowest lows to validate himself.
i wish i could say i didn't believe he would nuke somebody to make himself look good. but he is exactly that type of guy
i'm just happy that he's so far has tarnished any credibility he ever had, and people know how nuts he is. so i have faith that people around him will be able to reign him in.
but i would be lying if i said i wasn't worried
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Look at you, gambling on dying of old age too.
I mean. I do too. But that's just because I don't need to pay debts for dying early.
a little, yeah.>>564301
So you're taking a nihilistic approach to the literal end of the world. Ok, have fun with that.
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Skeptical, not nihilistic.
Everybody thinks the world will end tomorrow. They have for millennia. I'll believe it when it happens, and not before.
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Nnnnnno. No we're not. What, are you actually scared of NK? Even the people in Guam aren't worried about it. Do you want to know why? Because any direct action that NK takes against the US, or our allies in the area, and they will be met with an overwhelming force, almost instantly.
China. Does not. Want a war. With the US. They stand to gain absolutely nothing, and to lose a lot of time and resources that they wish to spend elsewhere. China is what is standing between the US and NK, but only because of the status quo. It's easier for China to let NK continue to run their mouths with empty threats rather than do anything about them. The moment NK becomes too much of a liability, China's going to obliterate them. It will be a slaughter. Chinese armored divisions will bulldoze Pyongyang to the ground as well as any indoctrinated NK people who try to stop them. If they get Kim Jong Un alive, he will be publicly executed for crimes against humanity. North Korea will be left a smouldering cinder on the face of the world.
China will then pull back to it's own border, lock that shit down, and yell to South Korea "Your problem now." Then the process of fixing the northern part of the Korean Peninsula will fall to South Korea, who is backed and supported by the United States. China will let us spend time, money, and resources fixing the place while they continue on as they have, except now they don't have the annoying NK monkey on their back anymore.
There is one thing stopping China from doing this already, and that's the only thing they're less happy about than having to protect NK and it's idiotic government from it's own stupidity. It's the refugees that will flood into China if they pull away. Because, and let's not mince words, when NK collapses under it's own bungled policies, China is where the people will flee to. Their entire culture is bent towards the demonization of the South Korea, and the United States who back them. They will die before they will accept the authority of the South Korean government.
The only way Kim Jong Un survives, and North Korea survives in its current state, is if it continues to pound its chest and scream empty threats to pacify it's population, while also not actually doing anything of enough substance to bring down China's wrath. China is far more interested in maintaining current trade deals with the United States which has brought incredible wealth to their country, than they are in maintaining a backwards dictatorship that yields diminishing returns at best, and is an utter money sink at worst.
If you want to fear for anyone, fear for the North Koreans who must endure a never ending cascade of abuse from a government that is essentially holding them hostage from the rest of the world.
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Please show me where I said the word "nuclear".
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i don't like reagan at all, but i still feel he was more together
but at least you could trust your own side for the most part, right?>>564318
i sincerely hope you are right. but like i told manley, i fear trump more than Un or China or anyone else
Don't worry, dude.
You don't even live in Hawai.
Beside, I am sure you have a anti-missil system.
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That same skepticism is how I feel about the current state of affairs.
They can hit Chicago. But even if I'm not in a targeted area, it's still scary they might attack any part of the US, or those islands that aren't technically part of the US but we still own and don't let them vote.>>564318
What makes you so sure China would risk attacking a nuclear-armed country in a conflict they have no stake in?
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All Trump is doing is attempting to pander to a base, and deflect attention away from himself. He's making big and bombastic statements with little substance just like he did during the election. He's not actually going to do a damn thing.
He can't even get the entire Republican party to fall into line.
Congress will not approve of military action against North Korea without the blessing of China and the UN as a whole, not unless North Korea actually acts on one of its threats. And that's assuming North Korea is actually competent
enough to pull off any of its threats without it backfiring on themselves spectacularly. >>564337
I just told you, they do have a stake.
What, do you think trade and economics are secondary concerns to China?
You understand that China owns a ton of US debt? As in we have to pay that to them? It's only recently that Japan overtook them! We owe China over One. Trillion. Dollars. What's more, we regularly pay into that debt, and are fully capable of paying it off entirely!
Do you know what the entire GDP of North Korea is? A paltry 12 billion.
That's their entire economy!
of the US GDP being owed to China is worth more than ten times the entirety of North Korea.
Oh they have a stake.
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i live near NORAD, an airforce base, and 2 military academies. so i feel pretty sure i'm in a high priority target range
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starting a war is a very surefire way to boost your ratings and gain base loyalty. i doubt it would do him much good right now, but i believe he could be convinced that it's a good idea
i sincerely hope you are right though on that second part. and fortunately he is alienating people left and right all the time, so his ability to convince them is nil at best. Still, i'm not in his position, so i don't know what options he has available to him.
What the heck did we buy from China that we owe them a trillion dollars?
But ok, so we owe China a butload. How would a war between NK and the US affect that?
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Not in a situation like Trump's in. He starts anything of the sort after going on about how we should pull back from the rest of the world and make the rest of NATO pay up? Shit, he starts a war and there will be riots in the streets demanding he be removed from office by the very people who voted for him.
He's all bark and no bite. Even those who supported him are getting really sick and tired of empty promises that come out to nothing. >>564350
Debt. Government debt, specifically. And China
is who bought it. Government debt bonds. It's more complex than just that, but it gets the point across. This is a fairly normal thing, and China's manipulated it's currency to make them a tempting country for the US government to do this with. China
is the one holding North Korea's leash. I don't know how much more I can emphasize that. If North Korea does anything stupid, like attacking the US, China gets the heat thrown on them. This would be a foreign diplomacy nightmare.
China doesn't want that. Notably, it could cause the United States to start pulling out of trade deals with China. Notably, we may very well just pay off our debt in one go and never do business with them again. In such a situation sure, China gets a bit over a trillion dollars. China's playing the long game though, they're milking the US for TENS of trillions of dollars through the accumulation of interest on debt. China wants things in the world to stay exactly
like they are, because they're making what is scientifically referred to as "shit-tons" of money off of it.
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but i have already been seeing alot of that, and it doesn't seem to be affecting him. at what point would that flip for him? he's not a normal polititian, he has a person that he pays to bring him folders of purely good news everyday. he dodges and diludes anything that comes his way.
and i am aware of his bark and no bite ways. but that's mainly cause he knows how to manipulate people to do what he wants, and lying to their face is one of the most consistent ways of doing that.
i fear if he is backed into a corner, he would resort to drastic measures when his normal methods fail
Not sure what I'm looking at, but it says we owe "14 trillion dollars" to a bunch of people. That sounds… bad. We should work on that. >>564374
So China bought… debt? Isn't that called a "loan"? This is all getting complicated. So China loaned us a trillion dollars, and said we could pay it back slowly with interest, like a bank loan?
The diplomacy behind this all tense situation is more complex than just shooting missils.
This is pure geopolitics.
So please, calm down >>564365
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That's actually the best possible reason to life your life to the fullest every day 'till the end.
If there's nothing left tomorrow, at least that would mean there is no regrets either.
If life keeps going next day, then repeat everything you did before, but more intensely!
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Look, I'm gonna be totally honest, if you're worried about Trump, don't be. Worry about Pence. I have family out in Indiana who are about as Republican as it gets.
I'll contextualize this with no, they aren't racist or sexist or homophobes or anything like that. I've seen them do nothing but promote tolerance and acceptance. Their stance on this informs what I'm about to say.
Pence. With a passion. I hope I never have to see that blood vessel bulge in my uncle's head ever again. Just keep it in mind. If Trump tries anything drastic he'll probably get ousted, then Pence takes over the presidency. >>564379
In a sense, but it's more complex than that. Here's the thing, the US sells debt bonds because, due to our large economy, we're good for it. As in, we sell our debt as a form of foreign investment. It's money from other places, that we can then spend, that we now don't have to generate domestically. We just have to pay it back at some point in the future, plus some interest. The interest rate being very low for US debt bonds, something like 1% per year? I may be wrong on that, but the point is that it's low. It's low because we reliably pay our debt, so other countries buy our debt because they will get what they paid in, and then some. Basically they get money for nothing in the long run.
China's used this debt repayment to boost their own economy, basically. Ideally for China, they want us to keep selling our debt to them. So IF they don't control North Korea, and then we assume China and the US don't end up fighting each other in the ensuing months… The US isn't going to be accepting China's bids anymore. We'll probably double down with Japan instead, or give greater consideration to European countries.
North Korea attacking the US is like North Korea taking China's wallet and setting fire to it. China… will not be happy, to put it mildly. China's not as… well, not as kind and caring as America is when it comes to war, let's put it that way.
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That doesn't really work because a lot of my plans rely on the Earth continuing to exist! And I still have to worry about money and all of that that doesn't change just because the world is now about to explode.>>564397
Pence is probably secretly gay. That's why he cares about what gay people are doing so much.
And I guess I see what you're saying. and I hope you're right. And it makse sense, logically. But we are dealing with two madmen, here. Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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i hate pence too, and i don't view him as much better than trump. but i wouldn't be lying if i didn't say he was at least somewhat more competent.
honestly, i am really hoping that both trump and Pence go down in the russian investigations. but barring that, it reminds me of a hypothetical situation that my friend came up with.
say you, hitler, and a monkey were trapped in a room where a bomb was going to explode. you yourself are unable to do anything, but hitler and the monkey both have the ability to press either a button that will stop the bomb, or to make it explode instantly.
in this situation, would you trust hitler or the monkey to save all three of you? hitler, despite being the most evil person in the world at least understands that he will also die in the room if he doesn't save everyone, whereas the monkey does not know what button does which, nor understands what is going on and will do what it wants.
i see trump as the monkey, and pence as the "hitler" in this sense. i still dislike pence greatly, but i also trust him way more to not destroy us all.
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There's also the fact that with North Korea's… fuck it, North Korea's a cult.
It's not the fault of the populous in North Korea, they've been subjected to the indoctrination their entire lives. If China does roll in I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't cull the entire population as "enemy combatants." >>564405
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. I would more consider him clinging to outdated sensibilities. To a harmful degree.
Keep in mind that the US, no matter who is elected as president, is not a dictatorship like the leader of North Korea is. The president is merely the head of one of three branches of the government. The other two branches are fully capable of, and have been, telling the president "you can't do that." And he can't
Let's take a scenario where Trump tries to wage a war, and congress votes "no." The military will not
obey the president in that situation, because they legally do not have to obey him in that situation. In fact the military is taught how to legally disobey the president, and how to go about doing so. They only follow orders given by the president if those orders are legal and constitutional. They serve the country, not its leader, just as, in theory, the leader is simply a public servant. >>564408
What I can say about Pence, is that I feel I could trust him to not commit political suicide so long as he occupies the presidential office. I think he'd be competent enough to keep his head down and just get through the term. I still probably wouldn't care much for him, but I would at least trust him to act like a statesman.
I know there were some Trump supporters specifically wanting someone who wouldn't
act like that, but I'm of the mindset that it's like that for a reason. Politicians are always treading on eggshells, they should act accordingly.
I don't think it's just being old-fashioned. He is seriously obsessed with what gay people are doing. Like seriously, who cares if a gay couple wants a wedding cake? They aren't going to fuck each other there in the cake shop.
And I hope you're right, because Trump has been running his mouth a great deal lately like he was elected Emperor.
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that's kind of my mindset too, given the removal of trump from office, all republicans would be forced to keep from causing more damage to their base, as right now there is more than likely a huge blue wave in 2018. So i would expect Pence (or ryan) to keep themselves from further hemmoraging themselves.
but like i said earlier, trump is not a politician, there is no such thing as walking on eggshells with him. so until he's no longer in power, i still will fear his actions.
not to say i don't fear the actions of other politicians, but they are more calculated and easier to follow and predict ya know?
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It's old fashioned sensibilities combined with a fixation on those who engage or wish to engage in homosexual acts as being "other."
It's blowing up in his face. Every day. He'll either get his act together and work
, or he'll be utterly ineffectual. >>564418
I'd certainly prefer a more conventional politician, but try not to stress out about Trump too much. Just do your research when 2018 comes along and know who it is you're voting for. That's the best that can be done. There are systems in place, and it's best to work within them.
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because they typically are fed different news sources.
i have seen first hand alot of my conservative friends news feeds and suggested topics, and they look nothing like what i see. alot more bias towards conservative and republican values
plus on top of that is the false notion that left wing media is fake news. so anything that is shown on normal news outlets can be waved off as being fake.
it's like living in a completely seperate bubble, it's fascinating>>564435
well i know i personally can't do more than spread the word and the news that i find. but know that i will vote for what i think is best in the upcoming election, and that is garunteed!
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you would be amazed how different 2 people can watch the same thing.
and it's one of those things where it shows you that our values are often not too far apart, but we focus soo much on that which is different, that it feels like there is no way we could relate to eachother.
i mean, you've probably been in a conversation about a movie or a show that you have seen, where the other person talks about it and you wonder how it is even possible that you both watched the same thing
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Eh, I wouldn't worry about that either. White supremacists that voted for him were already there. They're far outnumbered by people who voted Trump for other reasons. People who felt shafted by things like Obamacare, Clinton Era economic policies, or in support of stricter immigration policy.
I'm not saying I agree with these reasons, but I can absolutely understand them. There are people from all walks in life in America, and for enough of them, they felt Trump was a better option. I know people who voted for Trump and came to regret their decision, and I know people who voted for him that are still behind him 100%. The Trump voters are not some monolithic entity, they're people like everyone else. >>564437
Vote according to your values, and for those whose record is most in line with those values.
I think a lot more of it is racially motivated than we realize. And even if not all of Trump's supporters are white supremacists, his rhetoric is giving them cause to be more open with their bigotry. And it's going to come to a boil sooner rather than later. A lot of that hatred of Obama and Obamacare WAS racial in nature, as much as people hate to admit that. And stricter "immigration" policies are as well. You don't see them going after immigration from majorly white countries. No, its all "mexicans" and "muslims" that's the "problem". It's rhetoric that is causing a big divide that we can no longer ignore in this country. And Republicans have chosen the side of people who put Confederate flags on their pick-up trucks…
Also you probably shouldn't talk to Trump voters.
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A lot of the hatred for things like Obamacare also came from the ramshackle job it was, and how rushed through it was. That rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Myself included, in fact. The bill itself just reeks
of being some half-measure that was jammed through to meet a campaign quota, instead of being done right. But with it in place, it's going to be simpler to just fix it, rather than try and start from nothing again. Immigration too needs an overhaul, even if building a wall is a dumb as bricks idea. That there are otherwise law abiding illegal immigrants is indicative of a flaw in the process, that much is clear. Things people could be led to believe Trump wishes to solve, especially with the campaign surrounding him.
Maybe you should.
It's that kind of partisan, line in the sand bullshit that's going to drive the country into the ground faster than anything else. That's the sort of thing that makes politicians base their policies on just being against
something, rather than standing for anything.
Then the politicians stop working
with the other party, and only devote themselves to fighting
them, and in the end nothing
And in the end, after all the infighting and demonizing, the only way it'll stop is if everyone sits down and talks. Actually talk. Not just screeching at each other.
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>>564451> A lot of that hatred of … Obamacare WAS racial in nature
wat>Also you probably shouldn't talk to Trump voters.
Immigration does need an overhaul, but to help people get in, not to keep people out. That's what Trump and his supporters want. Because, remember, A big part of Trump's base are white nationalists. And we'll have to agree to disagree on Obamacare. But any legitimate complaint about it is undercut by the people with an irrational hatred of the administration because of Obama's race.
And no, I'd rather not talk to the people who voted for the man spewing hateful rhetoric about me and my family and friends. Even if they didn't vote for him for those reasons, they were still okay
with him saying and promising to infringe on our rights, and that makes them bad people.
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Even if Hillary supporters didn't vote for her for those reasons, they were still okay with her saying and promising to infringe on our rights, and that makes them bad people.
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>>564495>And if your ability to own guns matters more to you than other people's lives, then you have your priorities misaligned.
One of the most common reason people own guns is to protect
their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
Also, our Second Amendment rights were paid for in blood. Some things are worth fighting for or dying for. I for one would rather take whatever risks are necessary to live as a free man than to have a secure existence on my knees.
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If you think Hillary is friendly to gun rights, you're kidding yourself.
I'm going to assume you don't honestly believe any of this garbage and just know that it gets under my skin.
And really, you should stop. Because it's just making you look like someone who cares more about his guns than other people. I.E. a sociopath.
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I'd agree, but in the process of streamlining the process of getting in, the process of doing so illegally must be made more arduous. If legal immigration is properly executed and incentivized, punishing illegal immigration naturally follows. Both are needed. Key word, both.
As for Obamacare, you better believe there are regular folk who are more hurt by it than helped. It's helped some people too. Healthcare reform shouldn't have hurt anyone.
Do you want to know what your adamant refusal to do that says to me? You're part of the problem. You exemplify the partisan divide just as much as those you so adamantly oppose do. You feed
off each other, and simply continue to entrench further and further. You will never
be able to win people over to your side of the argument that way.
If you want to solve problems, you suck it up and make a deal.
There's a point where pragmatism must overrule idealism in politics, and we should have passed that point a long Goddamn time ago.
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>>564502>You're just an idiot.>>564510>you don't honestly believe any of this garbage
Come on, Manley. Enough with the ad hominem
s. Hillary campaigned on the closing the gun-show """loophole""". Trump campaigned on protecting the RKBA. >>564510>who cares more about his guns than other people. I.E. a sociopath.
It's not sociopathic to value liberty over security.
I think you misunderstand the hows and whys people illegally immigrate. If the legal process was made less arduous, then there would be no need to make the illegal one moreso, because far fewer people would. Just think about it, why would these people literally risk their lives to do it the illegal way if doing it the legal way was possible? Please don't "other" these people too much, they are literally members of my family.
And I don't see how the claim that I'm part of the problem makes any sense. They are the ones refusing to see the other side of things and dehumanizing groups of people because they aren't like them. Would YOU want to sit down and have discourse with people spreading harmful, incorrect rhetoric about you and your family and friends? Who are literally saying they don't want you to live in the same country as them? I don't think you would. >>564515
I'm going to assume you don't honestly believe any of this garbage and just know that it gets under my skin.
Everything you're saying is rhetoric. You don't actually believe it because I know for a fact you're not that dumb. You just know that this discussion upsets me and are trying to get a rise out of me.
Hillary wouldn't have taken any guns away. That's complete asinine fear-mongering from the Fox News crowd. How would they even do that? You have guns. You can protect your guns… with your guns? Wanting stricter gun laws is not the same as taking everyone's guns away. And for the record, I agree we need stricter gun laws in the United States. You can't just hide behind the 2nd amendment and shout "muh freedums!" while ignoring the very real problems with mass shootings in this country. And anyone willing to do so just shows how little they care about other people that they would put their hobby above lives.
So no, I don't think you're that stupid or evil. Consider it a compliment I think you're trying to troll me right now. Because I'm not taking the bait.
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It's not a hobby. Guns are by far the most effective means of exercising one's right of self-defense.
You keep using rhetoric talking points so…
I'm going to assume you don't honestly believe any of this garbage and just know that it gets under my skin.
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I understand perfectly. Notice how I said punishing illegal immigration follows.
Because once the process is streamlined and more accessible, those who still
make the choice to do so illegally have, ideally, no good reason to have done so when the legal process is as painless as possible. I would have no problem granting a period of temporary amnesty for illegal immigrants who are already in the country to have a chance at gaining a legal status without risk simply from that illegal status, whether through a visa or a path to citizenship. After a reasonable time has passed, that window will close, preferably once the new streamlined system is fully in place and has proven to work.
No, I wouldn't like it, but I would still do
it. In refusing to do so, you allow the problem to fester and grow instead of nipping it in the bud. I already said it, and it seems I must say it again. There's a point where pragmatism must overrule idealism in politics.
Where you work with those who you oppose because you must.
Falling behind lines of extreme partisanship is what bred the political climate that got us where we are right now. Deescalation is what will fix things, not doubling down. Look at what our choices were, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton? Candidates that reached where they did through extremism and corruption stemming from the ever deepening lines voters were drawing between themselves, reflected in the politicians they supported. Where both parties had potential candidates far, far and away better choices than what we ended up with. It is madness.
Until you grit your teeth, swallow your pride, and work with the other side. You might be surprised just what you see, and they may be as well. If you want to ensure that hatred of the other side is ingrained into the minds of Americans for the foreseeable future, by all means, continue as you are. If that's the goal you want, we're well on our way there.
If you still cannot understand, then I see so little point in trying to convince you. I'll continue to seek out those on either side who can, and hopefully do my part to bridge the ever widening gap. Maybe then something worthwhile can get done.
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Alright, that last part is a bit harsh. Also hypocritical, how I worded it. More accurately, if what I say hasn't made you understand, I don't know what I can say that will.
My point is that when you fix one problem, you won't need to address the other. If people have access to better, legal way to come here, very few people are going to do it the illegal way. That's the point. It won't even be an issue anymore.
Hillary was the obvious choice. She had far more experience and wasn't spewing a bunch of hateful, bigotted rhetoric
/. And I can't for the life of me understand why people STILL try to demonize her, even after she won the popular vote and the Republican party had to re-open the long-dead emails investigation AND collude with a foreign power to beat her.
But in any case, I think it's easier for you to say grit your teeth and work with the other side because they aren't trying to destroy YOU. They aren't saying that they don't want you or your family in "their" country. People who literally want us to stop existing
. How do you negotiate with a side that wants to destroy you? It'd be like trying to negotiate with the aliens from Independence Day. Your idea only works if it's just political ideals that are separating us from them. Not full-blown bigotry and hatred. Trump has aligned himself with the alt-right and the white nationalists of the country. You can't combat hatred by letting them spread their rhetoric. I'm not even sure you CAN combat hatred. How can you convince someone who sees you as less human that you aren't?
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You're giving people a bit to much credit there. It won't stop 100% of illegal immigration, it merely simplifies it.
Hillary's political record in recent years is not good. She was a lousy Secretary of State, and acted in many ways contrary to how she later campaigned. In the end, her being a better choice than Trump did not make her a good
choice. And her having the candidacy in the first place over Sanders was in part due to the Democrats use of super delegates to push her through.
By. Talking. To. People. Not at
them. You're right, if someone is truly hate-filled and bigoted you won't convince them. Those are a minority, they are. It's the people in the middle, the vast majority of people, you are to do this for. Because if you don't, all you do is drive those people to the other side and deepen the divide. Especially when you attack
them because someone else attacked you. You are propagating what is happening to you, and in being backed into a corner you lash out, and back others into a corner. Then who is there to welcome them? That's right, those who went after you in the first place. You need to understand that. Don't drive those people away, because if you do you're just giving those who do
want you gone more power. God I don't know how to make this clearer Manley, I don't. What you're doing is part of why Trump won, because people get sick of being judged all the fucking time. Someone who voted for Trump because they thought he was a better option for them and their families did the same thing you and I did in voting for Hillary. If you understand that, and you just deal with people who voted the other way, you stand a chance to convince them you're right.
You don't have to agree with their choices to still treat them, as a person, with respect. Even if they don't respect you, even if they hate you.
It's clear I can't convince you. Maybe I can't articulate what I'm trying to get across well enough, or you don't want to be convinced, I don't know. I think your methods are self-defeating and ultimately lead nowhere.
North Korea's a shitty country and you shouldn't be afraid of it.
I'm out. Peace.
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As far as I can reckon it, if we're to die soon we should make the most of it by not worrying about our impending doom. Not much good it'll do to worry about things that are out of our control.
Just try to do the best you can to spread happiness with the time you got left, be it sooner or later than you expect.
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>>564525>You keep using rhetoric talking points so…
How is that a "rhetoric talking point"? You claimed that something was a hobby, and I explained to you why it's not merely a hobby.
It's a hobby. They collect guns the same way I collect retro video games.
If a politician said there needed to be stricter laws on the purchase of retro video games, I'd know that nothing I'm doing is illegal and I wouldn't really be affected. Especially if, you know, retro video games killed people
I say you are using "rhetoric talking points" because you are. It's rhetoric. Pre-packaged quips from Fox News and InfoWars with no basis in reality. Like the sheep in Animal Farm bleating "Four legs good, two legs bad!" so loud no one can have a serious discussion about anything.
I think you are missing what I'm saying. Anyone who would look at Trump's campaign and think it was what was best for them and their family ALSO had to listen to his hateful bigotted rhetoric about people not like them and say "well, none of that was about me, so fuck those people." Or at the very least "that's ok."
And that's not something I can understand. I don't know how to explain to people that they should care about people different from them because the concept of not doing so is so foreign to me. That's the issue.
I understand where you are coming from, but your'e right. I don't think you can convince me. Because I know that that is what HAD to have happened for someone to vote for Trump. They had to hear things like "muslim ban" and "bad hombres" and not think about those things past the surface or how it would affect people and their families. And I don't understand how anyone could lack empathy to such a degree.
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>>564711>It's a hobby. They collect guns the same way I collect retro video games.
Some people collect guns as a hobby. But that's not what the Second Amendment is about. The core of the Second Amendment is about the people having the right to arm themselves for self-defense. >>564717>ALSO had to listen to his hateful bigotted rhetoric about people not like them and say … at the very least "that's ok."
Nope. They could have said "That's bad, but Trump is still the lesser of the two evils".
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Manley… When are you going to stop doomsaying, and when are you going to stop portraying the right-wing as evil nazi's and racists? Seeing all this panic and hate speech on Ponyville every single day is getting really tiring.
Trump is a loudmouth, but he's not stupid. He's not going to launch nuclear warfare against anyone. He's trying to intimidate the very forces that have been attacking him in the first place. That's a thing that happens all the time in politics.
I won't say that Trump is a fantastic president or anything, I for one doubt he'll run a second term, but let's stop pretending that America really had a better choice here. Either elect a loudmouth with no experience in politics, or elect a hypocrite flip-flop whose experience in politics is so deeply rooted with corruption and scandals that she's been investigated by the FBI twice just during the elections, with a third investigation coming up. I think it was an easy choice to make.
>>564153>>564795>when are you going to stop portraying the right-wing as evil nazi's and racists
When they stop acting like those things?> Seeing all this panic and hate speech on Ponyville every single day is getting really tiring.
Me and my family having to live in fear is also tiring. Atleast you have the option to ignore my threads.>Trump is a loudmouth, but he's not stupid
I disagree.>but let's stop pretending that America really had a better choice here
We did. The one with actual political experience who wasn't shouting a bunch of bigoted things was the better choice.
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Well, I consider myself right-wing. Why do you think I'm an evil nazi and a racist?
Why do you and your family live in fear? Are you undocumented immigrants? That's pretty much the only kind of population that Trump wants to act against, for good reason.
Trump turned a million dollars into a multi-billion dollar empire. I don't think you could turn 100 dollars into 1000.
No, you really did not. Look at the mess Europe is in right now. Germany is policing all of Europe by threatening them with sanctions unless they do what they say. Sweden is nearing 50 no-go zones where Swedish law is void. The UK is now arresting people for posting opinions online. Did you want all of this in America? Because Hillary wanted Europe's immigration policies as well.
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>>564795>Trump is a loudmouth, but he's not stupid.
I'm worried that Trump might actually be suffering from the initial stages of dementia. If it gets worse, he might need to be removed from power before he does something catastrophic. There are two avenues for this: (1) impeachment and conviction in Congress, and (2) a determination that he is unfit by the VP and a majority of the cabinet.
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That's quite an accusation. What kind of reasons do you have to think something like this?
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Trump's behavior is a bit, uh, erratic at times. I personally don't think there is strong evidence that he is beginning to suffer from dementia, but it is something that I worry about because it would have severe consequences if true.
I'm not undocumented, but I have family and friends who are. And you're wrong. He's also going after Muslims, who are also my family and friends. And I really think you are considering undocumented immigrants as an "other" if you think it's "for good reasons". Do you know what the process is for becoming a legal citizen? Do you know how long it takes or how much it costs? Why are you supporting Trump keeping these people out at all costs over helping them become citizens?
And no he didn't. He got way more than a million dollars from his family, that was just a story he made up. And he's run several of his businesses into the ground. Most of his money is made by licensing his name to put on things, and even that goes shitty for him sometimes. Like Trump University, which was ripping people off. Also, yes, I could turn 100 into 1000 pretty easily. But I don't know why you're bringing me into this? How can your views on this be so backward? You're not a dumb guy, but you're swallowing everything the right is feeding you even when it has no basis in fact.
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Letting millions of people flout the law without impunity is not a good thing. I think that illegal immigrants should generally be deported back to their country of origin. However, I would favor a statute of limitations whereby if someone has lived here peaceably for a long time (e.g., 10 years), they would be granted some sort of legal status but without the possibility of citizenship.
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From what I can tell of my grandfather's spiral into dementia, I can tell you quite confidently that Trump is not in the early stages of dementia. One of the telltale signs is difficulty with speaking, and I think we both know Trump has no difficulties with that whatsoever.>>564825
Okay. What is Trump going to do to Muslims, then? Because I haven't heard of any policies that he's going to take against Muslims.
No, I don't know how long it takes. But I can get an idea of how much it costs.https://www.us-immigration.com/blog/how-much-does-it-cost-to-apply-for-us-citizenship
Well, if they really did want to become citizens, why didn't they start doing it when they could? Why did they instead choose to never bother, despite fully well knowing that it's not only illegal, but also harmful to the economy?
Yes, a few of his businesses failed. Now look at how many of his businesses succeeded. Simply put, even if you get a ton of money to start your venture, you will go bankrupt if you are stupid and spend it all poorly. Instead, Trump became a worldwide name and one of the richest men on the planet. Do you think you could do the same?
I am bringing you into this because I want to give you some context. It is easy to discredit others, but it is a lot harder to actually do things yourself. I am very curious how you would go about turning 100 dollars into 1000, actually.
That's a pretty inhumane mindset to have. People who come here undocumented and searching for a better life. Escaping war and poverty. And most of them would come to this country legally if they could. But again, you don't know and don't care how difficult that actually is. You just want to write these people (again, my friends and family) off as "criminals" who need to be punished.
You literally just said that you don't want anyone who has come here illegally to ever have a chance to be a citizen legally. Why? America wasn't founded on the idea that the statue of liberty should be a bouncer at a club.
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By request, a few points. You're not all going to die.
First off, because war with North Korea is incredibly unlikely. This isn't even the closest that we've gotten to reigniting the Korean War since it ended in 1953. Back in 2010, North Korea sank a South Korean ship, killing 46 people. This was followed by the North shelling a South Korean island, killing both militants and civilians. Yet, despite this exchange of fire, the war did not restart. Even Trump's comments of fire and fury, which are reminiscent of Kim Jong-un's own fiery rhetoric, have not been accompanied by any actual violence. It's just words, and we've been exchanging words with them for decades.
The reason this never escalates is because no one wants war in Korea. North Korea knows that it would result in the end of the regime, and so does everything it can to avoid it. Indeed, everything that North Korea does can be interpreted as an exercise in self-preservation, including brazenly threatening the world's largest superpower. North Korea uses the threat of US invasion to keep its own people in line, which allows it to use the US as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong. Why are North Koreans starving? Because America, according to the government. Why does North Korea spend all of its money on missiles? Because America, according to the government. It's a viable strategy.
Meanwhile, South Korea doesn't want war because it knows that a) war would be extremely costly, and b) it doesn't want to have to deal with millions of North Korean refugees. The refugee crisis that would result from the collapse of the DPRK would be about three times greater than the current refugee crisis in Europe and the Middle East. That would be devastating on SK's economy and society, as the burden of housing, feeding, and educating all of these people would likely fall directly on their shoulders.
China doesn't want war because of the refugees and because they don't want an American ally to have a border with China itself. They have a vested interest in keeping NK strong enough to resist American influence. [i]That being said[//i], China has already said that they would not support NK if NK acted first. If NK goes to war with the US, it's NK vs. all of NATO, including three nuclear powers and every advanced western country. It would be suicide.
And then there's the fact that America doesn't want war. None of its allies would be happy, it would create the aforementioned refugee problem, and frankly, the US has no interest in NK. NK is annoying, but it's manageable. If anything, NK is useful to keep around just to have as a scapegoat for international affairs - for instance, the argument that we need to keep spending money on maintaining a nuclear arsenal, because NK is a rogue state. It's a bit like saying you need guns because somewhere out there is a kid with a knife. You let the kid keep the knife so that you can justify having guns. Everyone wins.
Also relevant is everything I said in the other thread about how the US president can't just declare war independently, and about how no one, not even Republicans, want war.
And then, even if war did break out… how are we all going to die, exactly? NK has enough uranium for approximately 10 nuclear warheads, all about the size of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (by comparison, the many US nuclear bombs today are about 10,000 times more powerful). The US has a sophisticated anti-missile defense system in South Korea (not the THAAD - that's something else), as well as missile defenses covering the entire western seaboard. If, somehow, NK managed to fire a nuclear missile - which is completely beyond their abilities at present - it would be shot down far before it reached the US.
And that would be it. Even if China decided to help NK in any war, China has a very strict policy about using its own nukes only in retaliation for other countries nuking them. They don't even keep their nuclear weapons on standby. Meanwhile, Russia wouldn't be bothered to lift a finger, because relations between Russia and NK are at an all-time low right now.
If anything, the only people who should be worried are the South Koreans. If a war broke out, they're the ones who are going to be hit by it. A million NK troops and their missiles and artillery can do a lot of damage to a city like Seoul, which is only a few dozen miles from the DMZ and is home to more than 10 million people. But that's not a concern for Americans.
It is a concern for me, because I have friends in Seoul. But the general attitude there is that everything is fine. The new South Korean president ran on a platform of defusing tensions with the North and promoting dialogue. Trump is literally the only person who would want war.
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I think Trump is like a loud person who makes all the populist stuff happen.
It's hard to say how much balls he has to put forth.
I don't know if barking loudly will not force him to take action after all.
These are conflicted times and I'd rather wish that we'd fall back more on subtlety and don't always see politicians yell "the truth" the hardest, whipping up the masses to applaud a post about wanting to rid the state of this or that people. So that left can yell in outrage and right can proclaim that they'll throw left traitors out of the country like every non national scum.
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America doesn't have enough resources to let in everyone who wants to come. People who come in illegally are cheating and deserve to be punished.
>>564842>Why did they instead choose to never bother
What makes you think that anyone who comes here undocumented never tried to do it the legal way? What evidence do you have of that? You just said you don't know how long it takes. Well I'll tell you. It takes YEARS. Decades, to become an American citizen. I have a friend who came here in 1983, before I was even born. He didn't become a citizen until 2006
. Doing everything he was supposed to and paying all the costs (which is difficult because you aren't legally allowed to work in the US) it still took him nearly 30 years. And I'm not getting where these people, my family and friends, are "harmful to the economy"? These people are families, children who were brought here by their parents, people trying to escape war. But you want to treat them like criminals because they couldn't afford the time or money and did what they had to to try and find a better life? That's not what America should be about.
This is the answer to your question earlier. >>564813>Why do you think I'm an evil nazi and a racist?
I don't. But I do think you're ignorant. You're ignorant of what people who aren't like you go through or the truth about these people. Not only that, you're not interested in learning the truth because you might have to admit you were wrong. And there's a lot of people like you. Too many. And you won't listen. You won't consider the humanity of people you've deemed bad criminals. You won't consider injustices faced by people who don't look like you. You're ignorant. To a dangerous degree.>>564854
"America is an exclusive club! No brown people!"
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>>564849>Meanwhile, South Korea doesn't want war because it knows that a) war would be extremely costly, and b) it doesn't want to have to deal with millions of North Korean refugees.
If the is a full-fledged war with NK, I doubt there would be refugees left. The whole country would be obliterated. The reason SK doesn't want war is that the Seoul is very close to the border and would likely sustain substantial damage from NK missiles.
I'm glad to hear that you think my friends and neighbors E and J (I won't use their full names to protect them) "deserve to be punished" because they were brought to America as babies by their parents avoiding war and grew up here. I can honestly see why you'd wonder why I think people with your mindset are dehumanizing and othering undocumented immigrants.
That was sarcasm. People like you are terrible human beings.
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You'd be surprised. Even in the aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were hundreds of thousands of refugees, compared with only tens of thousands of people killed. Nukes are incredibly powerful, but there's always a periphery that goes unscathed. And most of NK is farmland, and farmland isn't worth bombing. So those people would find themselves with no government and nowhere to go.
And that's true - SK is very aware of the vulnerability of Seoul… for the same reason that NK is aware of the vulnerability of Pyongyang. Korea is very small, all things considered.
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>>564867>brought to America as babies
Oops, you're right in that situation that they wouldn't be culpable for their illegal entry into the US and wouldn't deserve to the punished. But anyhow they would be covered by the statute of limitations that I proposed earlier.
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How dangerous are nukes, really?
I the end, Hiroshima and Nagasaki got wiped.
Japan is still pretty much alive nowadays.
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Sure, it takes a long time. But once you've started the process, you're safe. You fill in the N-400, and then you're in the clear. You won't get deported, because you're already in the process of becoming a legal citizen. This is something a lot of people overlook. You don't get deported if you're still in the process of becoming a legal citizen, you only get deported if you haven't bothered doing anything to become one in the first place. Period.
They are harmful to the economy because illegal workers don't pay income tax. This often causes them to earn more money on a netto basis than their colleagues, even though they pay less taxes and are still eligible for special treatment. In other words, they get more and give less back. This, in our already shaky economy where everything is becoming more expensive while wages are static and interest is low, causes incredible harm to the economy, especially on the large scale where it's happening in America.
I don't mind finding out that I'm wrong. I can accept that. But in the grand scheme of things, I look at facts. Not at feelings. You seem to care a lot more about feeling and facts, emphasized by the fact that you specifically try to create sympathy by bringing up families and children who are trying to escape war (which actually is not the case for a significant amount of illegal immigrants). But neither the economy nor the law care about feelings. Feeling good about yourself means nothing if your entire generation can't afford to move out and buy their own house.
Also, what's with that remark? "America is an exclusive club! No brown people!" Where did he ever mention anything racist? In fact, what he's saying is completely correct. America does not have infinite resources, and people who come in the country illegally are committing a crime. And while I admit that it is not always easy to become legal, there are far too many who choose not to go through the effort if or when they do get the means to do so.
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I hope we will never carpet bomb with nukes.
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Perhaps, but I'm optimistic. Everything the Kim regimes has ever done has been for the sake of self-preservation. It would be completely against their entire mode of thought to do something as suicidal as attacking the US. If anything, the regime will crash, and Kim will flee like the coward he is… if his own generals don't shoot him first. Right now, I think Kim Jong-un's greatest threat isn't the US, it's his own people, and he knows it. And you can't nuke your own people.
I'm bringing those up because YOU'RE the one who is ignoring the fact that we are dealing with people here, not statistics or numbers. Not to make myself feel good, but to try and appeal to your humanity. Because the things you are saying and purposing are harmful to real people with real lives and you don't see to see that.
And also, I'm trying to show that your facts are WRONG and are informed by that lack of empathy. The idea being that these "criminals" have to leave "your country". Instead of fixing the system so more people can come in the legal way and help the economy, you want to kick them out and keep them out. That's where we will always disagree. If you feel the solution to people coming in illegally is to kick them out and keep them out, and my solution is to help them get in, then we will always be at odds. No way around that.
>>564904>can't nuke your own people.
No but you can starve them. It's slower, but just as effective.
I once saw a documentary on North Korea. It really seems like a terrible place to live. I wonder if it's true they build fake storefronts and towns to make the country look less shitty than it actually is.
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, ironically, quite lucky. Both cities were unusually empty due to American firebombs destroying much of the housing before the bombs were even dropped, so the total death tolls were much smaller than they would have been if they had targeted full cities.
Also, the bombs dropped on those cities had yields of about 21 kilotons, or 21,000 tons of TNT. By comparison, typical US nuclear weapons these days have yields of about 9000 kilotons. The largest bomb ever detonated was the Soviet Tsar Bomba, which was 50,000 kilotons. While the bomb dropped on Hiroshima destroyed the city's center, the Tsar Bomba would have a fireball that would cover the entire width of Japan.
Just for some perspective. I still don't think war will happen, but nukes are no joke.>>564912
True. But that's the beauty of using America as a scapegoat. While North Koreans starve, the government can point at US/UN sanctions as the reason for their suffering. This just makes the people more loyal to the regime, even when it's the regime that is causing them to suffer.
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To be fair, I remember that cartoon I think Fen posted once about a couple on a rubber boat, meeting drowning people. The girl insists they pull the people on board and the guy protests, saying the boat can't hold them all.
The girl replies that they can't leave people to die out there and the guy gives in.
They pull the people on board and the boat sinks with the girl proclaiming they made the right choice.
I always think about how complicated immigration really is.
Turning down immigrants will leave them in an unsure and perilous place. war/poverty/..
at the same time, just blindly accepting everyone out of a good heart, can c ause trouble in your own home.
Like, what do you do with people who left your country to join ISIS, but come back now the war is lost.
Do you accept them back as a prodigious son, or do you refuse them because they defected towards the enemy? This is a problem Europe faces currently.
Why did anyone see the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and think "Lets make a bomb a thousand times bigger!"
And I'm not sure why North Koreans would think that it's the US's fault when Kim Jong Un lives in a literal castle.
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From what I've read megaton scale weapons like Tzar Bomba aren't an efficient use of fissile material, since increased yield increases energy output along a sphere while damage itself is along the cross section of the surface. The same ol' cubed/squared problem.
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That's probably a reason why I don't really follow populist stuff here either.
But I would accept their need to be standards and rules to keep control somewhere.
If it becomes a freeforall, things get out of hand at some point.
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People also want to see libtards and left wing workers executed for treason.
I don't like how people define treason nowadays.
When I hear rightwing people discussing capital punishment for treason I worry.
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>>564947>United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
Red cross workers/medecins sans frontiers and other help organisations must meet the gas chambers according to that definition.
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That is certainly true, and those weapons are pretty rare. However, strategic nuclear missiles with yields of about 3000-8000 KT are the standard, which is still incredibly larger than the 21 KT that we've seen in action. Also, several countries have invested in so-called "tactical" nuclear weapons, with very low yields - around 10 KT - that could be used on battlefields. Which, ironically, makes them more likely to cause high casualties, because they can be precisely aimed at high-density populations, such as armies or specific buildings.>>564923
Because the Cold War was a dick-measuring contest, essentially.
And because North Koreans don't know that Kim lives in a castle, or palace. The media there is state-controlled and most people don't leave their villages. Access to information is severely limited.
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Also in the analysis I read (which could be totally bogus) more radioactive material per kiloton is retained in the atmosphere for those 500-1000 KT weapons.
You could tell Positively about the huge number of low yield weapons we gave the germans! I think he'd like that.
I think it can always need rescaling, always.
Though at the current pace, you have 'tragic' situations, which can't be helped because they fall out of the ruleset.
Erh, anyways, I think that Trump's choice and other Western approaches are not satisfying.
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But Manley, you have to be realistic. Even if we look at the people, the idea that all these illegal immigrants are desperately fleeing from war-torn countries is simply not true. A lot of them are just coming here for the money, and they often come in through and sometimes even for dubious means. And like I said before, America does not have infinite resources. They cannot accomodate just everybody who rings at the door. We are literally in the middle of a worldwide economic crisis! How are we supposed to take care of all of those people when we're struggling to take care of ourselves?
And how are my facts wrong? In what regard do you think I am poorly informed?
And once again I must ask, why are so many illegal immigrants not applying to become legal citizens when they do get the opportunity and the means to do so?>>564942
To be fair, there is a loud vocal part of the left-wing that wants all guns completely removed, even from police officers…>>564952
I think joining an active terrorist organization dedicated to massacring the western world and executing everybody who does not praise Allah is a pretty good grounds to call treason. And I believe these people truly do deserve execution for being completely amoral and reprehensible people willing to murder innocents indiscriminately.
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Technically, I'd agree to keep those people out.
>>564961> A lot of them are just coming here for the money
Can you prove that? Do you have any statistics to back it up? Because I probably know more immigrants than you, and it was never about money for them. If you want to keep saying "facts" then you need to start proving it.
And I've never heard anyone say they want all guns taken away, except fear-mongers on the right claiming the left is say that when they never did.
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Yep, exactly. And because people don't have access to information, they have no way to question the party's narrative. Hence, most of North Korea is fiercely loyal to Kim… except the elites. That's who makes him nervous.
If North Korea falls, it won't be due to American intervention or a popular uprising, it'll be when his generals realize that they can get more wealth and power by getting rid of the guy. And that's why he has to keep threatening the US, because it keeps the lower classes loyal and distracts everyone from the power struggle going on at the highest levels of society.>>564959
I'd believe it. To be fair, I don't know enough about the science of nuclear weapons as I ought to, as my area of specialty is politics. But there aren't many nuclear weapons that aren't dreadful, regardless of the size.
And of course, the history of nuclear trading is a whole other matter. As a Canadian, I'm always fond of pointing out how we accidentally facilitated the spread of nuclearization by freely giving out nuclear reactors to everyone who asked during the early stages of the Cold War. I mean, peaceful nuclear power was the way of the future, right? How were we to know that people would build bombs from the tech we gave them.
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B'sides, technically, those people could be girls moving there to become wives, coming back with 'innocent' children.
Could be guys who went and trully believed in a caliphate where they could grow on their own, but dragged into a war against the West they didn't want to fight.
It will be hard to sort that out though.
I think that shows the danger of having your only source of information be the government.
North Korea sounds like it has a lot of problems, and like I said, I don't think it can sustain itself in that state for very long. Eventually something will break. I'm just worried that a lot of people will die when it does.
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A hah, pardon that "we". Though we have plenty of blame to go around if you're willing to share.
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Oh, absolutely. We're very fortunate for having access to the internet and all the perspectives it offers. Why people only stick to their national news outlets even when given the opportunity to access other information baffles me.
And that's true, I imagine. But it might last a long time yet. Experts have been predicting North Korea's imminent collapse since the 1990s, but it's still going strong. Not to mention, North Korea always seems to be on the verge of war with us, but it never happens. That's not to say it won't happen… it's just unlikely.>>564999
Ha, that's fine. I mean, I say "we" too in reference to the US - a relic of some degree of shared Anglo-North American guilt for everything.
I mean, we didn't make the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the uranium for the US nuclear arsenal comes from Canada. Those two bombs were powered by uranium mined around Great Slave Lake, where we used forced indigenous labour to mine it. So… y'know, I can't exactly claim innocence on behalf of my country.
I think the current trend of trying to discredit journalism as "fake news" is frightening for this reason.
And yeah, I guess you have a point. What you say makes sense, logically. But we are dealing with two madmen, here. And some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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It is… but I think everyone could use some branching out. Relying too much on any one news outlet is bad, even if it's legitimate and internationally recognized. That doesn't mean everyone should be reading Breitbart and watching the Daily Show, just that, y'know, more perspectives is good, y'know?
That is… a common-voiced idea. But I am skeptical of it. I honestly do believe that Kim is rational. I mean, he is very well-educated, and surrounded by others who, like him, were often educated in Western universities. He knows the West because he lived here for much of his life, in secret. He knows politics and he knows how to keep power. He can't be bought or bullied because his primary concern is his dynasty, and his empire. He can be negotiated with, he just needs to make sure that he will maintain power… the problem is, his maintaining power is exactly why everyone is upset. He can be reasoned with, it's just that we think he demands are unreasonable.>>565021
Haha, thank you, I try. Though I'm not sure that forced labour and nuclear weapons are fun, per se.
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Ah, no. Just an observation taken from the full picture.
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Aw, well that's very nice of you to say.
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If we're lucky, NK will attempt to launch a nuke, it will fail spectacularly like most of their other attempts at launching anything, and it will detonate 10 feet off the launch pad, and the problem will solve itself.
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I'm not sure anything would actually give me some faith in North Korea's ability to do anything at all. Even with a successful missile launch of some kind I'm willing to bet we could stop it somehow. We haven't spent 40 years and god knows how much money on the military to say "Man, I sure hope no one launches a missile, that's our one weak point."