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So um… we're all going to die. And I realize that not a lot of people have been talking about the fact that we're all going to die soon. Thoughts?
95 posts and 51 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.


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America doesn't have enough resources to let in everyone who wants to come. People who come in illegally are cheating and deserve to be punished.


>Why did they instead choose to never bother
What makes you think that anyone who comes here undocumented never tried to do it the legal way? What evidence do you have of that? You just said you don't know how long it takes. Well I'll tell you. It takes YEARS. Decades, to become an American citizen. I have a friend who came here in 1983, before I was even born. He didn't become a citizen until 2006. Doing everything he was supposed to and paying all the costs (which is difficult because you aren't legally allowed to work in the US) it still took him nearly 30 years. And I'm not getting where these people, my family and friends, are "harmful to the economy"? These people are families, children who were brought here by their parents, people trying to escape war. But you want to treat them like criminals because they couldn't afford the time or money and did what they had to to try and find a better life? That's not what America should be about.

This is the answer to your question earlier. >>564813
>Why do you think I'm an evil nazi and a racist?

I don't. But I do think you're ignorant. You're ignorant of what people who aren't like you go through or the truth about these people. Not only that, you're not interested in learning the truth because you might have to admit you were wrong. And there's a lot of people like you. Too many. And you won't listen. You won't consider the humanity of people you've deemed bad criminals. You won't consider injustices faced by people who don't look like you. You're ignorant. To a dangerous degree.

"America is an exclusive club! No brown people!"


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>Meanwhile, South Korea doesn't want war because it knows that a) war would be extremely costly, and b) it doesn't want to have to deal with millions of North Korean refugees.
If the is a full-fledged war with NK, I doubt there would be refugees left.  The whole country would be obliterated.  The reason SK doesn't want war is that the Seoul is very close to the border and would likely sustain substantial damage from NK missiles.


I'm glad to hear that you think my friends and neighbors E and J (I won't use their full names to protect them) "deserve to be punished" because they were brought to America as babies by their parents avoiding war and grew up here. I can honestly see why you'd wonder why I think people with your mindset are dehumanizing and othering undocumented immigrants.

That was sarcasm. People like you are terrible human beings.


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You'd be surprised. Even in the aftermath of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were hundreds of thousands of refugees, compared with only tens of thousands of people killed. Nukes are incredibly powerful, but there's always a periphery that goes unscathed. And most of NK is farmland, and farmland isn't worth bombing. So those people would find themselves with no government and nowhere to go.

And that's true - SK is very aware of the vulnerability of Seoul… for the same reason that NK is aware of the vulnerability of Pyongyang. Korea is very small, all things considered.


Well, Hopefully you and Chrome are right. And it would be bad for South Korea, but things have been so uneasy there that some people feel like a conflict is inevitable. Unless NK falls apart under it's own weight. But I'm not sure they wouldn't try something anyway.


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>brought to America as babies
Oops, you're right in that situation that they wouldn't be culpable for their illegal entry into the US and wouldn't deserve to the punished.  But anyhow they would be covered by the statute of limitations that I proposed earlier.


Then what age would be the cut-off? At what point does one become a "criminal" for crossing undocumented? I still think you're viewpoint is incredibly dehumanizing and othering. Tell me, how many immigrants do you know personally, legal or otherwise?


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How dangerous are nukes, really?

I the end, Hiroshima and Nagasaki got wiped.
Japan is still pretty much alive nowadays.


I think that's because we targeted those places specifically and then stop dropping bombs after the 2. We have WAY more bombs now.


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Sure, it takes a long time. But once you've started the process, you're safe. You fill in the N-400, and then you're in the clear. You won't get deported, because you're already in the process of becoming a legal citizen. This is something a lot of people overlook. You don't get deported if you're still in the process of becoming a legal citizen, you only get deported if you haven't bothered doing anything to become one in the first place. Period.

They are harmful to the economy because illegal workers don't pay income tax. This often causes them to earn more money on a netto basis than their colleagues, even though they pay less taxes and are still eligible for special treatment. In other words, they get more and give less back. This, in our already shaky economy where everything is becoming more expensive while wages are static and interest is low, causes incredible harm to the economy, especially on the large scale where it's happening in America.

I don't mind finding out that I'm wrong. I can accept that. But in the grand scheme of things, I look at facts. Not at feelings. You seem to care a lot more about feeling and facts, emphasized by the fact that you specifically try to create sympathy by bringing up families and children who are trying to escape war (which actually is not the case for a significant amount of illegal immigrants). But neither the economy nor the law care about feelings. Feeling good about yourself means nothing if your entire generation can't afford to move out and buy their own house.

Also, what's with that remark? "America is an exclusive club! No brown people!" Where did he ever mention anything racist? In fact, what he's saying is completely correct. America does not have infinite resources, and people who come in the country illegally are committing a crime. And while I admit that it is not always easy to become legal, there are far too many who choose not to go through the effort if or when they do get the means to do so.


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I hope we will never carpet bomb with nukes.



>You seem to care a lot more about feeling and facts

Feelings THAN facts, I mean. Pardon.


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Perhaps, but I'm optimistic. Everything the Kim regimes has ever done has been for the sake of self-preservation. It would be completely against their entire mode of thought to do something as suicidal as attacking the US. If anything, the regime will crash, and Kim will flee like the coward he is… if his own generals don't shoot him first. Right now, I think Kim Jong-un's greatest threat isn't the US, it's his own people, and he knows it. And you can't nuke your own people.


I'm bringing those up because YOU'RE the one who is ignoring the fact that we are dealing with people here, not statistics or numbers. Not to make myself feel good, but to try and appeal to your humanity. Because the things you are saying and purposing are harmful to real people with real lives and you don't see to see that.

And also, I'm trying to show that your facts are WRONG and are informed by that lack of empathy. The idea being that these "criminals" have to leave "your country". Instead of fixing the system so more people can come in the legal way and help the economy, you want to kick them out and keep them out. That's where we will always disagree. If you feel the solution to people coming in illegally is to kick them out and keep them out, and my solution is to help them get in, then we will always be at odds. No way around that.


>can't nuke your own people.
No but you can starve them. It's slower, but just as effective.

I once saw a documentary on North Korea. It really seems like a terrible place to live. I wonder if it's true they build fake storefronts and towns to make the country look less shitty than it actually is.


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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, ironically, quite lucky. Both cities were unusually empty due to American firebombs destroying much of the housing before the bombs were even dropped, so the total death tolls were much smaller than they would have been if they had targeted full cities.

Also, the bombs dropped on those cities had yields of about 21 kilotons, or 21,000 tons of TNT. By comparison, typical US nuclear weapons these days have yields of about 9000 kilotons. The largest bomb ever detonated was the Soviet Tsar Bomba, which was 50,000 kilotons. While the bomb dropped on Hiroshima destroyed the city's center, the Tsar Bomba would have a fireball that would cover the entire width of Japan.

Just for some perspective. I still don't think war will happen, but nukes are no joke.

True. But that's the beauty of using America as a scapegoat. While North Koreans starve, the government can point at US/UN sanctions as the reason for their suffering. This just makes the people more loyal to the regime, even when it's the regime that is causing them to suffer.


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To be fair, I remember that cartoon I think Fen posted once about a couple on a rubber boat, meeting drowning people. The girl insists they pull the people on board and the guy protests, saying the boat can't hold them all.
The girl replies that they can't leave people to die out there and the guy gives in.
They pull the people on board and the boat sinks with the girl proclaiming they made the right choice.

I always think about how complicated immigration really is.
Turning down immigrants will leave them in an unsure and perilous place. war/poverty/..

at the same time, just blindly accepting everyone out of a good heart, can c ause trouble in your own home.

Like, what do you do with people who left your country to join ISIS, but come back now the war is lost.
Do you accept them back as a prodigious son, or do you refuse them because they defected towards the enemy? This is a problem Europe faces currently.


Why did anyone see the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and think "Lets make a bomb a thousand times bigger!"

And I'm not sure why North Koreans would think that it's the US's fault when Kim Jong Un lives in a literal castle.


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From what I've read megaton scale weapons like Tzar Bomba aren't an efficient use of fissile material, since increased yield increases energy output along a sphere while damage itself is along the cross section of the surface. The same ol' cubed/squared problem.


The US is a much bigger boat than they are trying to portray it as. And the people we let into the boat are going to help us row. It's not just an issue of feelings versus fact, it's also about some sides trying to sell a narrative, or even trying to hide an ulterior motivation (like the fact that whites are becoming a minority in the US, and more immigration may hasten that trend)


>Like, what do you do with people who left your country to join ISIS, but come back now the war is lost.
>Do you accept them back as a prodig[al] son, or do you refuse them because they defected towards the enemy
The answer to accept them back and then execute them for treason.


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That's probably a reason why I don't really follow populist stuff here either.

But I would accept their need to be standards and rules to keep control somewhere.
If it becomes a freeforall, things get out of hand at some point.


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People also want to see libtards and left wing workers executed for treason.

I don't like how people define treason nowadays.
When I hear rightwing people discussing capital punishment for treason I worry.


Of course there needs to be rules and regulations. But the current system needs an overhaul. I don't know why people always jump from extremes like that. They do the same thing for gun control, just in reverse. "Immigration could stand a reform." "Oh, so you want to just let everyone in no questions asked!?"  "We need more gun control." "Oh, so you want to take away all our guns!?" it's madness.


>Why did anyone see the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima and think "Lets make a bomb a thousand times bigger!"
For better deterrence. The Soviet Union knew that it would only take one of our submarines armed with H-bombs to completely obliterate Moscow.


>I don't like how people define treason nowadays.
It defined by the Constitution as follows: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."


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>United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
Red cross workers/medecins sans frontiers and other help organisations must meet the gas chambers according to that definition.


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That is certainly true, and those weapons are pretty rare. However, strategic nuclear missiles with yields of about 3000-8000 KT are the standard, which is still incredibly larger than the 21 KT that we've seen in action. Also, several countries have invested in so-called "tactical" nuclear weapons, with very low yields - around 10 KT - that could be used on battlefields. Which, ironically, makes them more likely to cause high casualties, because they can be precisely aimed at high-density populations, such as armies or specific buildings.

Because the Cold War was a dick-measuring contest, essentially.

And because North Koreans don't know that Kim lives in a castle, or palace. The media there is state-controlled and most people don't leave their villages. Access to information is severely limited.


Time to travel back in time and shoot Oppenheimer in the face so that the world never discovers nuclear weapons.


So he keeps the populace stupid so he can spin his own narrative that isn't based in fact?


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Right right!

Also in the analysis I read (which could be totally bogus) more radioactive material per kiloton is retained in the atmosphere for those 500-1000 KT weapons.

You could tell Positively about the huge number of low yield weapons we gave the germans! I think he'd like that.


I think it can always need rescaling, always.

Though at the current pace, you have 'tragic' situations, which can't be helped because they fall out of the ruleset.

Erh, anyways, I think that Trump's choice and other Western approaches are not satisfying.


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But Manley, you have to be realistic. Even if we look at the people, the idea that all these illegal immigrants are desperately fleeing from war-torn countries is simply not true. A lot of them are just coming here for the money, and they often come in through and sometimes even for dubious means. And like I said before, America does not have infinite resources. They cannot accomodate just everybody who rings at the door. We are literally in the middle of a worldwide economic crisis! How are we supposed to take care of all of those people when we're struggling to take care of ourselves?

And how are my facts wrong? In what regard do you think I am poorly informed?

And once again I must ask, why are so many illegal immigrants not applying to become legal citizens when they do get the opportunity and the means to do so?


To be fair, there is a loud vocal part of the left-wing that wants all guns completely removed, even from police officers…


I think joining an active terrorist organization dedicated to massacring the western world and executing everybody who does not praise Allah is a pretty good grounds to call treason. And I believe these people truly do deserve execution for being completely amoral and reprehensible people willing to murder innocents indiscriminately.


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Technically, I'd agree to keep those people out.


> A lot of them are just coming here for the money

Can you prove that? Do you have any statistics to back it up? Because I probably know more immigrants than you, and it was never about money for them. If you want to keep saying "facts" then you need to start proving it.

And I've never heard anyone say they want all guns taken away, except fear-mongers on the right claiming the left is say that when they never did.


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Yep, exactly. And because people don't have access to information, they have no way to question the party's narrative. Hence, most of North Korea is fiercely loyal to Kim… except the elites. That's who makes him nervous.

If North Korea falls, it won't be due to American intervention or a popular uprising, it'll be when his generals realize that they can get more wealth and power by getting rid of the guy. And that's why he has to keep threatening the US, because it keeps the lower classes loyal and distracts everyone from the power struggle going on at the highest levels of society.

I'd believe it. To be fair, I don't know enough about the science of nuclear weapons as I ought to, as my area of specialty is politics. But there aren't many nuclear weapons that aren't dreadful, regardless of the size.

And of course, the history of nuclear trading is a whole other matter. As a Canadian, I'm always fond of pointing out how we accidentally facilitated the spread of nuclearization by freely giving out nuclear reactors to everyone who asked during the early stages of the Cold War. I mean, peaceful nuclear power was the way of the future, right? How were we to know that people would build bombs from the tech we gave them.


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B'sides, technically, those people could be girls moving there to become wives, coming back with 'innocent' children.
Could be guys who went and trully believed in a caliphate where they could grow on their own, but dragged into a war against the West they didn't want to fight.

It will be hard to sort that out though.


I think that shows the danger of having your only source of information be the government.

North Korea sounds like it has a lot of problems, and like I said, I don't think it can sustain itself in that state for very long. Eventually something will break. I'm just worried that a lot of people will die when it does.


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A hah, pardon that "we". Though we have plenty of blame to go around if you're willing to share.


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Oh, absolutely. We're very fortunate for having access to the internet and all the perspectives it offers. Why people only stick to their national news outlets even when given the opportunity to access other information baffles me.

And that's true, I imagine. But it might last a long time yet. Experts have been predicting North Korea's imminent collapse since the 1990s, but it's still going strong. Not to mention, North Korea always seems to be on the verge of war with us, but it never happens. That's not to say it won't happen… it's just unlikely.

Ha, that's fine. I mean, I say "we" too in reference to the US - a relic of some degree of shared Anglo-North American guilt for everything.

I mean, we didn't make the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the uranium for the US nuclear arsenal comes from Canada. Those two bombs were powered by uranium mined around Great Slave Lake, where we used forced indigenous labour to mine it. So… y'know, I can't exactly claim innocence on behalf of my country.


I think the current trend of trying to discredit journalism as "fake news" is frightening for this reason.

And yeah, I guess you have a point.  What you say  makes sense, logically. But we are dealing with two madmen, here. And some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.


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You're fun.


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It is… but I think everyone could use some branching out. Relying too much on any one news outlet is bad, even if it's legitimate and internationally recognized. That doesn't mean everyone should be reading Breitbart and watching the Daily Show, just that, y'know, more perspectives is good, y'know?

That is… a common-voiced idea. But I am skeptical of it. I honestly do believe that Kim is rational. I mean, he is very well-educated, and surrounded by others who, like him, were often educated in Western universities. He knows the West because he lived here for much of his life, in secret. He knows politics and he knows how to keep power. He can't be bought or bullied because his primary concern is his dynasty, and his empire. He can be negotiated with, he just needs to make sure that he will maintain power… the problem is, his maintaining power is exactly why everyone is upset. He can be reasoned with, it's just that we think he demands are unreasonable.

Haha, thank you, I try. Though I'm not sure that forced labour and nuclear weapons are fun, per se.


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Ah, no. Just an observation taken from the full picture.


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Aw, well that's very nice of you to say.


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If we're lucky, NK will attempt to launch a nuke, it will fail spectacularly like most of their other attempts at launching anything, and it will detonate 10 feet off the launch pad, and the problem will solve itself.


Didn't they just successfully test the things?


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I'm not sure anything would actually give me some faith in North Korea's ability to do anything at all.  Even with a successful missile launch of some kind I'm willing to bet we could stop it somehow.  We haven't spent 40 years and god knows how much money on the military to say "Man, I sure hope no one launches a missile, that's our one weak point."


IIRC, they tested nukes (by themselves, not part of a missile) successfully, but their missile launch tests generally failed.

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