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Oh my God. I've been trying to get over how terrible and pretentious the movie Joker was for three days. But one thing about the movie has been bugging me more than anything else. 247 posts and 50 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
Discussion in the thread since it involves... spoilers, maybe? Probably.
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Well Tyler Durden was the result of the the unnamed narrator's repressing his homosexuality and societal expectations of men in general. So it's about the dangers of hyper masculinity. Anyone who looks at Tyler and thinks that's what they want to be is missing the point. Yeah, he does look like what you want to be, but wanting to be that is the problem.
I would argue that a big part of the point that Fight Club was trying to make was highly dependent on Tyler being a highly charismatic character. Basically he's a symbol of the tempation
of hyper masculinity, being psychologically unrealistic in how unbounded, independent and "free" the character is. Basically what makes hypermasculinity appealing.
And of course, that charismatic personality and rather extreme self confidence in real life to the point of rather extreme narcissism is characteristic of the kind of people cults or cult-like organizations form around. Hence the fight club eventually becoming a proto-facist cult.
Also, Rick Sanchez is not an insane character, he's just a phony nihilist. The whole point with Rick is that he's lying to himself about how much he actually cares about people other than himself. Embracing this nihilistic persona
that often slips off in situations where he can't deny his depression.
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Heh, Bojack Horseman had commentary on something like that in the show.
Probably applies to Bokjack as well.
Bojack is a whole lot more overt in framing Bojack as basically being in the wrong all the time. And making it clear that most of his problems are his own fault.
For that reason, while a lot of fans might relate to his emotional struggles (he is actually a very realistic depiction of a person with a major depressive disorder with elements of complex post traumatic stress disorder), almost no fans actually idolize him or deny that a lot of his suffering is fair considering how many people he hurts with his own self-loathing and self-destructive behavior. It's one of the reasons the show is both cathartic and painful to watch.
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Well, I certainly felt bad for him.
While I could totally acknowledge he's not a character to look up to, there were times where you saw him struggle with his issues and see him try to be better.
It was a very emotional series.
Oh, I'm also thinking of Doctor House. Who got around being an asshole most of the time, but in the end I also don't know if the show could effectively treat him as a deeply flawed character. I suppose, yes?
I don't disagree, he's definitely a character designed to make hyper-masculinity look appealing. But I think the fact that men want to be that in the first place is also an issue.>>1036241
I also wouldn't disagree. But the thing about Rick is that he uses his high intelligence to justify his attitudes towards other people. I've met people like this in real life. They think being smart gives them carte blache to treat other people like garbage and act superior.
The difference is that House is framed as essentially always being correct in the end, which, like with Rick Sanchez, seems to signal that that ultimately gives moral license to Rick/House to just be an asshole.
Bojack never gets that moral license. The primary conflict driving the plot of Bojack as a series is "character vs themselves") rather than situations where the main characters has to solve any problem with high stakes (like solving medical mysteries or saving the multiverse). All plots in Bojack ultimately revolve around Bojack's striving to revive his career, and how he's ultimately his own greatest obstacle to that end, hence the shows focus on his internal conflicts.
He's relatable because he's understandable and a lot of people can relate to characters with major depressive disorder. The show makes it clear his choices are frequently the wrong choice and he's never let off the hook by the writers, but we understand how he got there and how anyone could end up like that if they had as emotionally dysfunctional family and emotional cruel parents who used him as an outlet for all their regrets about their own shitty life decisions.
>>1036263>I don't disagree, he's definitely a character designed to make hyper-masculinity look appealing. But I think the fact that men want to be that in the first place is also an issue.
Sure, I think Chuck Palahniuk underestimated the tendency towards self-serving interpretations. Tyler Durden is so charismatic and likeable to these people that they can easily just declare the movie "wrong" and basically turn it off before they get to the end and Tyler has ruined a lot of lives. >>1036263>I also wouldn't disagree. But the thing about Rick is that he uses his high intelligence to justify his attitudes towards other people. I've met people like this in real life. They think being smart gives them carte blache to treat other people like garbage and act superior.
Yes, Rick's personality is not unrealistic. He certainly has a penchent for narcissism as overcompensation for a depression fueled self-loathing. He's got a bad personality and the fact that he is always right means he's never going to have a truly humbling moment. But, he's frequently
in the wrong about other people, not because he can't empathize with others, but because it hurts him too much so he contrives reasons to block his own empathy, and of course that's when he's revealed to be a hypocritical nihilist actively suppressing and denying the reality that he actually does
care about his family despite all this.
I agree that the show undermines itself (at least in the first two seasons) with how it frames everything in a contradictory way and it makes me wonder if the fans would have been as enthusiastic if the show does what it did in season three and make the subtext just the text in tge Pickle Rick episode where a therapist basically explicitly states and describes Rick's general reluctance to connect with (or admit emotional connection) as a criticism of the character. So of course, while it's a favorite "ego trip" sort of episode, a lot of fans ignore the ending where the therapist overtly criticizes Rick for using adventures to avoid relationship issues with his family.
I'm not really sure how anyone watch "Fight Club" and thought Tyler Durden was some sort of role model on how to be. He's selfish, narcissistic, violent, manipulative and clearly insane. He didn't make hypermasculinity look good to me. To me, he was a mirror held up to the ugliest parts of masculinity and a message of what NOT to be.
I've always seen Rick's nihilism as kind of showing the inherent flaw in that type of nihilism (which, coincidentally is shared by most versions of the Joker). In the realization that life is inherently meaningless, nothing happens on purpose, bad stuff happens for no reason, good stuff happens for no reason and that ultimately all of it won't matter we are left with two choices. The Joker "fuck everything" route where we cut ourselves off from caring about anything or the Batman "no, fuck that" route where we choose our own meaning and care very much about that thing. Rick has embraced the "fuck everything" route but... it hasn't made him any happier or improved his life. In fact, it appears to make him miserable. But I don't like how the show frames that stance as being the ONLY stance you can take if you are intelligent. Like "fuck everything" is the ultimate conclusion all "really" intelligent people come to and the misery that apparently comes with it is just the burden of the smart. I think that's kinda bullshit.
Yeah, sometimes I suspect if Pickle Rick was written that way intentionally. Most of the episode is meme-fodder with Rick doing his whole God-like science wizard thing and then in the last bit of the episode he gets completely dressed down and called out for using... all of that to avoid connecting with anyone. So if you aren't very smart, it's easy for you to completely miss the point and be like "Well that was hilarious and awesome! But why was that therapist being such a bitch to Rick at the end?" I know that the "You have to be smart to get Rick and Morty" thing or whatever it is is a meme or a joke now, but really it does seem like a lot of the show does go over a lot of it's own fan's heads.
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>>1036277>>1036277>I'm not really sure how anyone watch "Fight Club" and thought Tyler Durden was some sort of role model on how to be. He's selfish, narcissistic, violent, manipulative and clearly insane. He didn't make hypermasculinity look good to me. To me, he was a mirror held up to the ugliest parts of masculinity and a message of what NOT to be.
Narcissism is a sufficient explanation for that self-serving interpretation.
I mean, narcissism is self-justifying to the point most narcissist will insist their narcissism is actually a great thing so ...
Reasoning can be biased to get someone to emotionally pleasing or ego boosting conclusions, even if one could
know better, it ultimately doesn't mean much if the person doesn't have a tolerance for information that makes them feel bad. >In the realization that life is inherently meaningless, nothing happens on purpose, bad stuff happens for no reason, good stuff happens for no reason and that ultimately all of it won't matter we are left with two choices. The Joker "fuck everything" route where we cut ourselves off from caring about anything or the Batman "no, fuck that" route where we choose our own meaning and care very much about that thing.
Fun fact, you just described the fundamental difference between nihilism and existentialism.
Also fun fact: Dan Harmon, the cocreator of Rick and Morty is an existentialist, and existentialist themes pervade his previous show, Community.
Also also fun fact: Raphael Bob Waksberg, the creator of Bojack Horseman, is also an existentialist and that show is also an exploration of existentialist themes as well. >In fact, it appears to make him miserable. But I don't like how the show frames that stance as being the ONLY stance you can take if you are intelligent.
I don't think that was the intention with how it's framed nor do I think that is what it's implying when a lot of the text so often contradicts that. I think it takes a deliberate rolling of the eyes at the text influenced by narcissism.
Honestly, I think show writers can get a little egocentric and oftentimes can't imagine, or severely underestimate, how someone could interpret their work in such self-serving ways. >Yeah, sometimes I suspect if Pickle Rick was written that way intentionally.
I don't think you need to be suspicious, I think that the writers are pretty transparent
with their intentions by fact that it was written that way at all. There is basically no subtext at all, the therapist directly lays out the flaw that defines Rick's fundamental "cgaracter vs themselves" conflict of the show.
He's "living in bad faith" as existentialist like Sartre would say. >So if you aren't very smart, it's easy for you to completely miss the point and be like "Well that was hilarious and awesome! But why was that therapist being such a bitch to Rick at the end?" I know that the "You have to be smart to get Rick and Morty" thing or whatever it is is a meme or a joke now, but really it does seem like a lot of the show does go over a lot of it's own fan's heads.
I don't think that the show really
goes over the heads of fans that much, it's just that the framing appeals to narcissism. So narcissistic people will value it for that reason and will interpret it in a way that appeals to that narcissism.
I mean, simply having intellectual capabilities doesn't guarantee a person will have the emotional discipline to use it. Or the tolerance for ego-threatening humility, something also required to be an intellectualy responsible person.
>>1036280>Fun fact, you just described the fundamental difference between nihilism and existentialism.
Which one, Batman or the Joker?>simply having intellectual capabilities doesn't guarantee a person will have the emotional discipline to use it.
I've heard that people have both an intellegence quota (IQ) and an emotional quota (EQ). I've always found that idea fascinating, although I don't know much about it.
>>1036284>>1036284>Which one, Batman or the Joker?
You described Batman as an existentialist. >>1036284>I've heard that people have both an intellegence quota (IQ) and an emotional quota (EQ). I've always found that idea fascinating, although I don't know much about it.
While those are both quantifiable measures, having a high EQ doesn't guarantee that someone is always using it.
The discipline to not give into emotionally self-satisfying or ego validating interpretations of the facts is ultimately a matter of willpower
rather than a matter of emotional intelligence.
Hence the reasons intellectual disciplines are called disciplines
>>1036287>You described Batman as an existentialist.
I'm not sure the character would consider himself to be one, but it does seem to describe his outlook.>The discipline to not give into emotionally self-satisfying or ego validating interpretations of the facts is ultimately a matter of willpower rather than a matter of emotional intelligence.
If it's a choice of willpower, why are some people better at it than others?
Hey Manley, you should totally check out some of Nando v Movies stuff, he's really smart about movie writing and comics. He just today made a video on Joker! I never saw the movie though, so I'm curious what you'd think of the video.
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>>1036289>If it's a choice of willpower, why are some people better at it than others?
I mean...some people are better at willpower than others.
Well, I watched it.
Well, I think comparing Joker's situation to that of black people in the 1970s is kind of an issue and not exactly the same, but the rest of the video I completely agree with.
Sympathy is not the same as empathy, and I while I get that some people sympathized with the Joker (I did not), the movie doesn't' really ever give us any reason to empathize with him, and that could have been fixed. if it would have resulted in a better movie is impossible to say, but I would have welcomed the change. Make his plight and issues more clear and make us want to see him succeed, atleast at first, even if we don't agree with his methods. In the movie we got, we have a character who it's impossible to care about or root for.
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>>1037301> some people are better at willpower than others.
But seriously, is that true? I always figured people had the same amount of willpower, and that other people just don't use it.
I wonder if it'll lead you to check out that Dolemite film ;)>>1037301>>1037307
What even IS willpower really?
Oh I might! It definitely sounds interesting. How blaxploitation movies got made is often a more interesting story than the movies it produced.
Willpower is "the control exerted to do something or restrain impulses."
Basically, it's how well you can make yourself do something or make yourself NOT do something.
I'd ask more about willpower, but I have a feeling it'll quickly boil down to the question of the existence of free will.
But I'm glad you liked the video, or at least agreed with a lot. I highly recommend checking out more of that guy's work, this was honestly one of his weaker videos in comparison!
No one was disputing free will, tho.
I've seen a few of his videos. I don't always agree with his re-writes, but I do think his videos are good.
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never seen any of these movies
from that sound of it
they dont sound good anyway
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Did you see The Dark Knight Rises
? It is the best Batman film ever!>>1037323
What is free will? A 'strong' conception of free will (in the sense that "willpower does not require free will" is sensible) never made sense to me.
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i only seen the memes but i gotta see at some point lol
that whole scene makes me laugh to this day
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"nobody cared who i was until i wore the mask."
2020 in general
No, it wasn't. and the Bane meme was never funny!>>1037365
You really don't need to watch it. it's the weakest of the Nolan trilogy and it's version of Bane is an insult to the character. >>1037368
Yes, even I quote that stupid movie when I wear my mask. Atleast it gave us that.
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i think the reason why people made it a meme was because how terrible nolans writing was in the airplane scene
could be wrong though
>>1037365>that whole scene makes me laugh to this day
It's the best part of the movie!>>1037382
That's right! And of course the ambiguous "big guy... for you"!
It's not ambiguous!
CIA Guy says "If I took that mask off, would you die?"
Bane responds "It would be extremely painful."
CIA guy, assuming he meant it would cause Bane pain responds "You're a big guy." Stating he believes Bane is tough enough to endure that pain.
Bane responds "...for you." finishing his earlier statement and clarifying that removing his mask would be painful for CIA guy not for himself, because Bane would hurt him if he tried to remove his mask.
Anyone who doesn't get this line of dialog is just acting stupid!
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>They expect one of us in the Wreckage Brother
What a foreboding name! Like, who would name their aircraft "Wreckage Brother" lol
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This is asinine.
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it's almost have memorized word for word too
yeah, i figured as much
guess people just had fun with it
This what happens when idiots get to watch scenes of movies before the movie is out.>>1037396
But it ISN'T fun!
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fair enough, i guess
I enjoyed the movie, both ironically and unironically. I might be kinda biased though because parts of it were filmed in the city where I live.https://youtu.be/o9Enk_Xhc7Q?t=43
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i will take your word for it
i dont watch much movies anyway