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Manley and i still have not received a response as to whether the staff would consider improving the wording of our special contract, and whether its wording corrected or otherwise will appear clearly on /rules.
Existing wording is awkward, uncertain, and absurd, relying entirely on the modstaff's lengthy determination as to whether a party who follows instructions and ignores an offending party would be permabanned, subject to a finding of malice but not negligence or inadvertence.
a lost pony petitions that the wording be changed to say "the offending party will be immediately permabanned", applicable to either or both parties depending entirely on their own action, as well as having Moony's definition of "engagement" be included. (Thank you Moons for that clarufication btw).
As the previous thread was derailed by open season attacks on its OP then locked, without any resolution, a lost pony is asking again.
Unless it is the staff's intention to hold both parties ransom for the other's action (which would be unconscionable as one of them is autistic as well as diagnosed with anxiety that has been most triggered since this mandate began), no rational explanation exists as to why these words have not been fixed in the four weeks since this problem has been raised by numerous posters.
Please fix this before more time passes. I know you are all busy with real life but this is severely impacting my mental health and negatively impacting my employability.
In truth, i was fired from one job last week because of said anxiety and i'm having difficulty concentrating at the other.
In the alternative, perhaps a permanan for a lost pony would solve the uncertainty and the anxiety as well, before i become entirely unemployed again.
This should not be so hard to resolve.
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This reminds me, thread rule:
Absolutely no anonymous posters are allowed in this thread. If you are anon and feel compelled to post, make up a temporary name and stick to it throughout this thread. My ability to focus is tenuous enough without a bunch of faceless attackers raiding and derailing this very narrow and straightforward topic like happened in Manley's thread.
It's pretty sad that i actually have to say this, but tbh this thread isn't meant for community members at all really so if you are not staff (or Manley), keep on topic or get out of my thread.
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Moony already clarified this in >>3850
. It's not like the mods are robots mechanically applying rules or government judges bound by the exact language of legislation. Yeah, it would be nice if Moony explicitly reworded the terms of your probation, but I think you're seriously misunderstanding how the site staff do their job if the lack of an official rewording is causing this much anxiety for you.
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Aight, man. Comes across as a tad rude, but, your thread. I guess you can be as rude as you please.
Yes, a lost pony is quite rude, i've established that already.
Thank you for your contribution.
There are only two possibilities:
1. Their intention is as they state, to allow us a final chance to remain on this site in good faith. If true, they must correct the unjust flaw of punishing one person for the actions of another.
2. Getting rid of us (or just torturing us) is its true purpose.
Which option is true, is easily tested by whether they are willing to correct a mistake. If it is not corrected then it is not a mistake
. In which case the true purpose and the malintent behind that purpose would be confirmed.
They have had a full month now and numerous voices have been raised in protest of punishing one person for the actions of another.
I ask that this charade be ended. Either fix the flaw, or admit the true purpose.
For the record, I'm not totally thrilled for the way this is going down, but that's beside my point.
The true purpose is to end a cycle. That there has to be an end to the conflict between the two of you. That is basically it honestly. Nobody wants to get rid of either of you, in fact, believe it or not, there has been a ludicrous amount of effort on the staff's part to try to make this work for everyone.
So yeah, long story short, this is a clumsy way to ensure that the fighting ends, one way or another. Not here to debate whether if that is the goal if this is the right solution. Just that you want to know the motivation, and that is it.
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Thorax, i value you as a person and a friend more than you can know.
The conflict between myself and Manley has come forever to an abrupt end at the moment i saw him suffer a two week ban for what i alone had done.
My conflict with the staff will end the moment i am no longer holding someone else's fate in my hands, or when i am silenced and not one moment before. The emotional torture the present situation causes me cannot end a moment too soon.
I am a retarded person, a mental patient and a social reject. I can barely take responsibility for my own actions with my delusions, tantrums and fragile grip on reality. I do not believe even one person on this site disagrees with this assessment of my stability as a poster.
While it is hard for me to believe that the staff would be so sinister as to do this to me and to Manley on purpose, it is even harder to believe that they would in good faith continue to place an adult's fate in the hands of a literal 4 year old spazz who is well known to snap into a delusional reality where actions like attacking Manley a month ago seemed rational and justified.
I am sure this whole debacle makes no sense at all the the intolerant normies on this site. Perhaps you, Thorax, with your experience in anxiety and its effects, can convince that staff that the impact of having someone else's fate placed in my hands is a deconstructive and intolerable situation that is easily remedied 100% by removing this burden from my tortured mind one way, or the another.
Please. If the staff cannot spare the effort to fix a couple of lines of text to hold parties responsible for only their own actions, then they can issue three small words in red text: lostpony is permabanned.
This is not too much to ask. Is it?
I've been trying to stay out of this for a reason. I know you are hurting now, but this conflict between you, Manley, and the administration is taking an enormous toll on me as well. I've fought in the background for what I believed was right, usually for the staff to extend understanding towards you, and after extremely hard fought battles against Moony (saying words that if he isn't bitter at me over, he should be), I earned what I felt was some fairness towards you. And after it was done, I've had you message me in private that you can't believe how inept the mods are that they didn't take harsher action against you. And it's like, what I'm doing is benefiting no one and just causing undue stress on myself. At this point, I basically owe it to Moony to let him handle the situation however he thinks best, I just really can't fight him on it anymore. I think, it really shouldn't be so much effort to change the wording to make more sense, but at this point I think Moony probably feels that he has to put his foot down, regardless of the impact it may have on you.
And I understand how it must feel for you. I'm no stranger to emotional pain, anxiety, delusion. I just had a total meltdown over a nightmare I woke from the other day, as though what I had dreamed was evidence of something or other, I don't even know it was so stupid. But it was real enough to me to have an anxious panic attack. So I get it, but I'm just not in a position to press Moony for anything. It's just too much for me right now.
What I can do for you is guarantee to you that regardless of what text has been laid, nobody is getting a permaban unless they earned it on their own. I'm good enough at bitching in mod chat that nothing really gets done unless I at least abstain, so if you trust me, then whatever written rules are in place it shouldn't matter.
If that isn't good enough for you, we do permabans on request. I'd really feel bad if I had to do that to you, it's a dumb solution to a dumb situation, but I can if that's what you need.
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it has taken its toll on all of us. Not just you, Thorax, but on me, on our community members, and on every single member of staff.
i wrote a really big, angry, frustrated post. it was like two pages long. suffice it to say, i am revolted by this thread, and what it implies of our staff, and of our community, who have been so patient, and so merciful, with you, and with Manley.
Please reread Chain!Wall's post, for the clarification therein.
This is not punishment, this is a mercy. It's strict, because it must be. And it's worded exactly the way it is, for a reason.
i understand you have some problems with self-control, as you've stated in your latest post, lp. You don't feel it's fair for Manley to have to be behold to, as you've described yourself "a literal 4 year old."
Fine. But self-control's exactly the issue. If you cannot control yourself without breaking rules, and Manley cannot control himself without breaking rules, it is not for the community to have to put up with that. It is not for us to make an exception because you cannot control yourselves.
You beg for a place in the community, but you have the audacity to call our posters "intolerant normies" and to accuse the staff of deceit and "malintent ... purpose."
Here's the face of the matter. We've exhausted our resources trying to make this site a home for you, and Manley. And the two of you have exhibited ZERO
effort to try to do your part.
i'm running out of energy to even be upset.
Please, consider these words. And reconsider your stance here. i do not feel it is constructive. Do not accuse us of trying to hurt you, when we have all been trying to help you despite how much you've hurt us.
If you cannot control yourselves in the future, do not look to me for help, if this is how you're going to treat me, my staff, and my family here.
There has to be a big, big shift if perspective i think, if this is going to work out, lp. this thread just makes me want to go home.
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>>4108>And it's worded exactly the way it is, for a reason.
I agree that lostpony is way out of line making these horrible accusations about the site staff, and I'm frankly confuzzled at his thought process. But at the same time, I really can't see why you don't just correct the wording. A basic tenet of justice is that a person should only be punished for his own actions. The current wording, interpreted literally and at face value, says that wrongdoing from just one of them will lead to both getting permabanned, which would obviously be unfair. You already admitted in >>3850
that the wording is broken, so why not just fix it?
>>4108> And the two of you have exhibited ZERO effort to try to do your part.
I don't think that's a fair characterization, Moony. If that's the way you feel, then I'm sorry you feel that way. But I have to say I find the accusation hurtful. >>4093
I really think you need to take a step away before you get yourself in trouble. You've been getting very worked up about this and I don't think it's healthy. We are not in any direct danger as of this moment.
It's not fair, but they are trying to force us to work together, not to guilt-trip either side. If you get upset at me, I won't get in trouble unless I continue to engage you. I have to pull the trigger, so stop hurting yourself over it. We don't want to see the other person get hurt or forced out, so they are making both of us each other's problem instead of theirs. But we still have to choose to engage.
Take a break from the site for a little bit and go relax. We can talk about this later, off-site where it's safe.
Even though Moony has put us in an unfair place, I don't think it's his intent to hurt us. So I don't think accusing him of malice will help our situation, and will only make it worse. So please, just step away and try not to stress for atleast a little while.
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while there was certainly a need for clarification, their rule breaking is seen as accomplice-like behavior, as lp's actions predicates Manley's, and vice versa.
The rule was written that way for a reason.
See, accomplice liability. https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-is-accomplice-liability-and-criminal-liability.html>>4110
Don't be sorry i feel that way. Be sorry that you've been this way, and try to fix it. >>4111
Do not blame our staff, our community, or our rules, for your behavior.
i do not like being stern. But you must learn to take responsibility for your actions here instead of finding someway to pass the buck.>>4112
Quite the opposite, this is Moony's hard work to keep you here.
You have put yourself in this position and yet continuously blame others as if it's we who are being cruel to you. When, in fact, your behavior has become completely out of control and intolerable, and yet you continue to blame others.
It is no longer okay with me, and i will not stand for it
This last chance is a mercy, and a privilege. Extended not because you deserve it, but because i care about you both. Otherwise, that last ban would've been the permaban. And still can be, if you are both truly so unwilling to show an iota of gratefulness and are so eager to slander our team and users like you have.
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>>4113>The rule was written that way for a reason.>>See, accomplice liability. >https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/what-is-accomplice-liability-and-criminal-liability.html
From that page:>If a person aids, assists, or encourages another in the commission of a crime, they are said to be an “accomplice” to the crime.
The wording that you used didn't really capture that, though. It applied even in the situation where one party was just minding his own business successfully obeying the rules or even absent from the site entirely. If both Manley and lostpony contribute in an accomplice-like way, then their individual accomplice-like behavior is what they should be punished for. I assume you thought that the "maliciously trying to bring both down" exception would cover this, but it's also been shown a few times that it doesn't. I know you mean well, Moony, but the wording of their probation just seems tremendously unfair (not to them in particular, but as a general principle of justice). We already have a rule "Do not bait or goad another user into engaging in rule-breaking" --- wouldn't just applying that rule rather strictly cover what you want to cover? If not, what's missing?
Anyhow, despite my disagreement on this issue, I do want to say that I think that you and the rest of the site staff generally do an excellent job with the site and I appreciate the hard work of all of you.
Moons, i am
grateful. I know i have expressed myself very poorly and there's been a lot of needless pain because of me all around, but i am grateful.
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>>4115>Moons, i am grateful.
Then try to show it! Stop accusing the staff of nasty things. Moony isn't twirling an evil moustache thinking of how to get rid of you and Manley. He is a tired, overworked, imperfect human being. He is just trying to do what is best for the site and all its users.
Yes, the wording of your probation is unfair, but Moony and Thorax have already explained that it won't be applied as written when it would result in an unfair ban.
I suggest you examine the assumptions underlying your train of thought until you find what what wrong. Look for other explanations for why Moony isn't doing what you ask. Maybe Moony thinks of the probation warning differently than you do. You seem to ascribe great importance to the text announcing your probation, but Moony seems to give less importance; he evidently thinks that mentioning (that the site staff won't apply it when it would be unfair) is just as good as revising the text.
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Moony I am grateful for our private chat on this issue and for your taking it under advisement and for putting up with my obstreperous attitude in order to discuss it.
I don't know what you will decide but I am finished publicly calling you out on this. I hope you will consider fixing the wording but if you don't I will let it be.
thank you for caring enough to even try finding a solution, even if it is a solution that rankles me to my core. I will never violate its terms anyway, notwithstanding its existence because I am regretful of my two years of victimizing Manley and this site with my unkindness.
i'm sorry to everyone else too. im just so tired of being the bad guy.
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Perhaps some of us are very interested in this case in particular. Perhaps some of us feel that you two got off with a very lenient punishment, and perhaps some of us see you making the staff suffer for their generosity. We'd like to see if the staff ultimately acquiesces under a constant barrage of abuse and manipulation. It's mostly out of a human concern for their emotional well being which has nothing to do with /canterlot/, but I admit that a tiny amount of the interest is to see how the site and administration handle such behavior, which makes it fair business on this board.
Does this strictly concern me? Nope! Not one bit. In fact I try to make it a rule to stay out of this kind of business. But in a different sense it concerns me a lot. Honestly I have had to intervene more than once behind the scenes because the constant barrage of emotional abuse and manipulation has pushed some people past their breaking points. And I do feel a sense of ownership regarding this site and my storied history here. With that feeling, and seeing how you two have been treating those you stand to gain something from, one must wonder how the rest of us would fair if we fell foul of you. You'll certainly disregard it as being baity or trolling or irrelevant or more evidence of persecution, but enough is enough. I need to speak up.
I was going to post with the fake name Vincent vonGoosee, again because I find this distasteful and I don't like doing it and wouldn't want to be associated with it. I still like it though so I might start using that name.
I do acknowledge that there is a very sincere apology directly above this post, but I also note that it is far from the only sincere apology in this matter. At this point I need more to be convinced.
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This is beyond asinine.
To not only get special treatment from the administration to be allowed to stay but then to complain and accuse them of malicious intent. How much of a child are you?
And to then just try and vomit up a hollow apology and try to make yourself the victim when you put yourself in the situation.
But then this feeling I have towards you I suppose stems from the hope that things can change.
They won't. So take this as me washing my hands of everything.
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I acknowledge your evaluation of the situation and thank you for it. I don't really know how to respond to it; perhaps the only response is to introspect on your direct and reasonable thoughts regarding the situation.>one must wonder how the rest of us would fair if we fell foul of you. You'll certainly disregard it as being baity or trolling or irrelevant or more evidence of persecution
No. While it doesn't surprise you that i don't entirely agree with everything you've said, i find your post to be constructive and insightful and a kindness to me, to have shared with me openly and thoughtfully as you have done, particularly when it would expose you to the sort of vehemence i've shown to others on this topic.
I feel that not simply permabanning me was less a generosity, than it was a willingness to take responsibility to me as a member of the family, to help me grow in spite of the pain it would likely cause to me and to the rest of the family. Permaban would have been easier for all, including for me and especially for Moony. It has been very rare in my life that someone would be willing to hold me close while i am kicking and screaming.
There is much for me to think about.>Vincent vonGoosee
I like it!>>4120>the hope that things can change.
Thank you, my brother. That begins today.>>4121
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I have never once asked you to not post in any thread that I have made, given that this is a false name.
So whoever you think I am I am not. I'm just another tired onlooker.
I give the mods permission to look at my IP and prove that I am not whoever he thinks I am should ALP not believe me.
Ooops i edited to say something different.
And yes, you are who i think you are.
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Then who am I smart ass?
(Im only supposed to funpost from now on)
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Here I'll do it for you so we can both go about our days and having aired my grievances can forget your existence.
>>4120>This is beyond asinine.>>To not only get special treatment from the administration to be allowed to stay but then to complain and accuse them of malicious intent. How much of a child are you?
Eh, if I squint hard enough I can kinda see where the lost one is coming from. The terms that Moony gave were:>if either user engages directly OR indirectly with the other user, i.e., making thinly veiled references to the other, an IMMEDIATE permaban shall follow for both users, unless it can be shown one user acted with malice to purposefully pull the both of them down (self-destructive revenge).
Banning one user just because another user misbehaved is horribly unjust, yet that's the literal wording. Moony has since clarified that those terms won't actually be followed by the mod staff. I don't know why he hasnt revised the terms to exclude (banning a well-behaving user simply because another user misbehaved).
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Reasons against Moony correcting the wording:
1) i've made it a battleground issue with vehement enough argument that if he does change it, he will be seen as giving in to abusive manipulation,
2) he feels the parties targeted share responsibility for the problem up to this point and should share the consequences for future actions even if the responsibility is not shared for that straw that breaks the camel's back,
3) he feels it has been effective and has not published it officially to the rules page possibly to make it easier to simply leave it behind once the parties perform adequately for long enough that the staff is satisfied
4) manley does not seem to object anymore
5) even a lost pony doesn't object anymore, having finally felt his concerns were actually heard by Moony after a month of head-butting
I no longer wish my petition be granted primarily because of 1) above and i've done enough harm, and because Manley seems to feel safe from me at this point, and because if i am not to receive my fix-everything lightning bolt i rather wished for (destruction being easier), then i have enough to atone for already.
Moony has not stated that he won't change the words, only think about my case. I have promised to accept his ruling gratefully whatever it may be.
I am grateful to you, Phone, for my not being all alone in seeing the unfairness inherent in the words (and to Chain as well) but i am ready to sit down and consent to them, now that i feel Moony has listened to me.
If it's a false name, why did you pick the name of an old member of the community?
Or are you actually him?
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To be honest, it kind of make sense to keep a rule like this there for them mostly because every other option moony left for them was pretty much thrown away because the 2 of them can't seem to stop barking at each other.
of course he's not going to apply it.
Its more of a guideline than a rule to help
manly and lost actually self reflect more about there interactions.
the idea of "Should I really engage this person? lets see so far every time I do we both get into trouble and we never seem to agree to disagree, so far having the staff intervene all the time doesn't seem to work all the time because in reality there's only so much they can do for me, the staff can't really control how I react to lost/manly and I don't want him banned because of my disagreements, I guess for now I should really watch what I say, or at least try to ignore/disengage with lost/manly and there is plenty of other people to talk to besides manly/lost"
>>4134>pretty much thrown away because the 2 of them can't seem to stop barking at each other.
Great job at keeping up with current events.
I'm pretty sick of so many on this site having nothing better to do than make a spectacle of things they have no stake in and don't bother to pay attention to current events about.
I get it. Im a miserable piece of shit who's not really welcome in these parts.
Since the asshole commenters cant seem to shut their fucking mouths and let me move on, perhaps the mods would do me the courtesy of locking this thread before i either blow up at every last one of you bitter unforgiving motherfuckers who have nothing better to do than talk shit about things that are now firmly in the past (and none of your fucking business) and get myself permabanned that way, or simply decide to fuck off of this shitty site full of shitty cowards who can't seem to put their name om their constant whining and offensive self pity.
Thanks for ruining my day, anon. Preesh.
I don't know why Moony still wants me here, but if i have to take this shit up the ass from nameless cowards for much longer im simply going to fuck off and never come back.
If i can quit smoking crack cold turkey, i can definitely quit coming where i am despised.
SHUT THE FUCK UP.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Manley and lostpony have actually been getting along pretty well since they got back.>>4135
Try not to pay much attention to Fleur or whoever that anon is.